Kingsley JeganMay 15, 2003 at 10:30AM

It's not yet released in India and won't be for a while, but I have braced myself for a lot of dissappointment. Most of the appeal of the first movie wasn't in the fx, and I am rightfully apprehensive that the rest of the movie is bound to go downhill when so much effort is spent on the fx.

MattMay 15, 2003 at 10:45AM

You know, I thought very much the same thing as you, and posted as much in my review. Be warned, heavy on the spoilers.

MathewMay 15, 2003 at 11:01AM

My review over there. I thought this movie was much better than the original.

TellerMay 15, 2003 at 11:30AM

It'll open here tomorrow. But after seeing the last and longest trailer some thoughts came. In the first movie human actors always played themselves. Correct me if I'm wrong but main characters were always plauing all the scenes themselves (maybe stunt, but never computers). Wires and greenscreen of course.

Now computers have been used to create some action scenes because their impossible to create with real actors. Somehow it just doesn't cut it. Perhaps sticking to simpler tricks and shots and stuff that looks a bit duller but in the end pays off because people feel that this could be really happening as it look well... real.

Of course, this comes from a man who hasnt' seen the movie. Yet :)

SunilMay 15, 2003 at 11:37AM

I was somewhat disappointed. But I paid 9 dollars for two hours of escapism, and that's what I got.

jazerMay 15, 2003 at 11:59AM

I haven't seen it, however I am not surprised at all the negative criticism, given that Matrix: Reloaded has been highly anticipated by one of the world's most critical audiences.

Ross KMay 15, 2003 at 12:03PM

I think I missed out on a major plot point- Who was that "survivor" at the end of the movie?

MarkMay 15, 2003 at 12:07PM

Most of the appeal of the first movie wasn't in the fx

I agree completely, except for the fact that I don't agree with this at all. Almost all of the appeal of the first movie was in the special effects.

MarshallMay 15, 2003 at 12:14PM

It's funny to hear people talk so much about the special effects. What did you think about the STORY? The Ws lament that Reloaded is a bit incomplete in that respect, because it's really only the first half and dependent upon Revolutions for a satisfying finish. Was it really that bad?

Not having seen it yet, my early instincts say that many of the special effects are so good, they simply go unnoticed, and are taken for granted. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because effects should not be so obvious that they take away from the story. And if people are lamenting some poor effects, perhaps there are some issues there that need to be worked out. But again... how is the STORY?

And K -- Neo is not Jesus. Savior does not equal Jesus. There are plenty of other influences which contradict Christian theology in numerous ways. "We get it, Neo is Jesus," even if it's an off-the-cuff, casually dismissive comment, suggests that you don't get it.

Brad ChoateMay 15, 2003 at 12:22PM

The fate and survival of a species? If that's not a weighty matter, I don't know what is. These people aren't in the Matrix to pick fights and have a few laughs. They're at war. I think the level of humor was adequate considering that.

I do agree that the FX weren't all they were cracked up to be, but they were spectacular nonetheless. And Smith had some great moments. Can't wait to see the showdown in Revolutions.

I think the time spent on Link and his family was a waste though, unless he plays a important role in the next movie.

jkottkeMay 15, 2003 at 12:39PM

Who was that "survivor" at the end of the movie?

Yes please, who was that? He was upsidedown on the screen for like a second and I didn't catch who it was. Anyone?

Not having seen it yet

Then please save your comments about it until you've actually seen it so you can, you know, know what the hell you're talking about.

jkottkeMay 15, 2003 at 12:40PM

Even though I disagree with his assertion that the Wachowskis know what they're doing regarding the philosophical aspect of the film, Andrew O'Hehir has written one of the better reviews I've read of the Matrix Reloaded.

GeneMay 15, 2003 at 12:51PM

The survivor was Bain, who I think was infected by Agent Smith earlier in the movie. He sort of tried to kill Neo in front of an elevator in Zion (he was the guy cutting his hand with a knife). I thought his Hugo Weaving demeanor in that scene was a dead giveaway.

sam dMay 15, 2003 at 1:03PM

I have to say this I thought that the Animatrix was a lot more satisfying ( http://www.intothematrix.com/ )

Eric JMay 15, 2003 at 1:11PM

To me the movie was GREATLY enhanced by watching the Animatrix films. Seeing that backstory on the history of the human/machine conflict added another dimension to the story and made scenes like Neo and the Chancellor dude in the giant machine room make more sense and seem less trivial.

I highly recommend watching those short films to better understand all the weighty issues the W brothers are trying to develop in the flick. Sometimes they stumble (the goofy dance scene - was that a metaphor for human passions vs. machine logic or an excuse to show some skin?) but even Star Wars tries to get all philosophical with the Force and whatnot. I'd compare Matrix to Star Wars instead of X2.

AnilMay 15, 2003 at 2:11PM

Lots of spoilers: Upside down guy was Cypher. I'm a bit concerned about what bit I missed at the end of the credits by not sticking around.

But the movie? It was entertaining, but not great. The hippie-dippie raver scene was only missing a hacky sack in order to perfect its lameness. Along with a terribly unsexy sex scene layered on top of it. Morpheus' big speech was underwhelming, and the cuts between expository dialogue and actions taking place during the "heist" scenes at the end seemed too abrupt. They're talking about what they're going to do, they're doing it, oops! They're dead. Wasn't really explained very well. And the worst thing about the movie was the music. During the Burly Brawl, video game music would've been an improvement over the accompaniment. The fight with the malovingian's goons was three times longer than it needed to be, and unsatisfying.

The good stuff was great. The freeway scenes were all exceptional. The freeze-frames during the Burly Brawl did look computer-generated, yes, but so what? Still fun as hell. Even the gratuitous fights, like the one before Neo meets the Oracle, were fun to watch. Though most of the new characters are forgettable, the keymaker was great fun, and Link was useful in reflecting the audience onscreen.

Not as good as the first, of course, but we can't be wowed again like we were 4 years ago. I'm glad I saw it, but I don't think a new generation of fanboys will pore over this DVD for details as closely as they did the first film.

Derek K. MillerMay 15, 2003 at 2:20PM

The complaint that the computer-generated people don't look real enough is interesting: given the premise of The Matrix, it seems to be that people who look computer-generated are _more_ "realistic," as far as where they're supposed to be (or "be"). Right? :)

BTW, only last night did I watch The Matrix for the first time, on DVD. I have not yet seen the new movie.

GeneMay 15, 2003 at 2:22PM

Upside down guy was Cypher. No! Really?

Wasn't Cypher re-inserted in the first movie? How would he be in Zion?

AnilMay 15, 2003 at 2:28PM

Maybe I'm wrong on the Cypher thing, I'm hearing conflicting reports. Could be Bane, and that means that Agent Smith is able to leave the Matrix, I guess.

jkottkeMay 15, 2003 at 2:33PM

Maybe I'm wrong on the Cypher thing, I'm hearing conflicting reports. Could be Bane, and that means that Agent Smith is able to leave the Matrix, I guess.

He didn't have the Cypher "soul patch" on his chin...he had the full goatee. And Agent Smith being out and about in the real world makes sense given Neo's newfound powers outside the Matrix. Neo sets Smith free to multiply & leave the Matrix. Smith in turn infects Neo and endows him with machine-like powers outside of the Matrix. Code modifying code, if you'd like.

Eric JMay 15, 2003 at 2:34PM

It was Bane or whatever the name of the guy Agent Smith zapped with the chocolate pudding happened to be. It was the guy who tried to kill Neo after slicing his own hands. Another reason we know is because someone sabotaged those 5 ships with an EMP and it was done deliberately and that someone was obviously meat Smith. Or, I could be dead wrong but I doubt it since I'm so rarely wrong.

steve minutilloMay 15, 2003 at 2:42PM

Did anybody else notice this: In the scene where the Architect is explaining everything, he says that the first Matrix was perfect, but failed, so they constructed another one that takes into account the evil of man (or something along those lines). While he is saying that, images of evil are flashing on the screens behind him... Hitler, piles of skulls... and.... George W. Bush!

JacobMay 15, 2003 at 2:49PM

I think the survivor was Bain (or whoever the hand-slicer is), and my friends and I have decided that the "free" world of Zion is just another Matrix and thus Neo's new-found powers. ("What are the Matrices?")

What I don't get: Even if only .01% of people plugged into the Matrix become an "anomoly" like Neo, why does the old guy at the source allow Neo (and his five predecessors) to select new people and rebuild Zion?

MattMay 15, 2003 at 2:54PM

There's a bit of a discussion along the same lines as what Jacob said going on at my review. I kinda like the idea that there is a Greater Matrix, which would explain Smith's ability to move into the "Real World", as well as Neo's ability to EMP, since really it's just more code manipulation.

Steven GarrityMay 15, 2003 at 3:03PM

There was a lot of cleavage (and some of it was not in the chest area...).

The Zion scenes remidned me of the Star Wars pre-quels (in a bad way).

Pretty damn entertaining though.

jkottkeMay 15, 2003 at 3:14PM

What I don't get: Even if only .01% of people plugged into the Matrix become an "anomoly" like Neo, why does the old guy at the source allow Neo (and his five predecessors) to select new people and rebuild Zion?

Zion is reseeded as part of an overall system of control of the humans by the machines. From the machines point of view, as explained by The Architect, the Matrix is inherently flawed, meaning that people are going to get out. Rather than let those people organize themselves into a potentially dangerous resistance, the machines provide an escape for them (Zion) that the machines are in control of. (You have to wonder why they go through all that trouble and instead just invest in better security in their storage areas.)

N. TallmadgeMay 15, 2003 at 4:10PM

I saw it last night and I really enjoyed it. My key to prevent from being disappointed is that I put a strict "radio silence" on big movies I want to see. Hollywood doesn't think that you've promoted something until you've seen half the movie in the trailers, in "the making of" shows, and in magazine articles. So I keep away from that stuff until after I see the movie. Cuts down on disappointment.

I wasn't expecting "great", after all this is just a movie and a second in the trilogy and by definition there will always be a level of disappointment in the middle movie. People had the same comments to make about "Empire Strikes Back" and "Two Towers" Special effects I thought were really great. That rave/sex scene at Zion could have a whole lot shorter and I thought that the ending was too abrupt. Some of the new characters were really great...I loved those pale dudes with the dreadlocks, very nice effects with them. I'm interested in how the whole prophecy thing is going to play out in the next movie since in this movie they find out...ah well, I'm not going to spoil it.

SebastianMay 15, 2003 at 4:22PM

Just a thought that crossed my mind while reading the comments... what if Zion is a simulation too? What better way to fool humans into believing they have control?

RobinMay 15, 2003 at 5:03PM

I saw the movie last night and I was disappointed by the special effects. Even with the consideration that they are fighting in the Matrix, a virutal reality, the fight scenes were sloppy. I understand that serveral cgi firms went bankrupt while working on the film, and it shows. I wanted to feel like all the working out that Neo did in the first movie paid off, and he was getting better and better. But I could see his face morphing into what looked like an animated version during those fight scenes, and that totally turned me off.

The rave scene was campy with all those stalagtites and stalagmites everywhere. And the old, white, wise man in Zion brought the film down a notch, same with the Link storyline. It just didn't feel like the writers focused enough on the big picture of why the rebels/human are fighting the machines. I needed to feel an urgency re: why the war was being raged. Otherwise this savior stuff was tedious. Remind me why I cared?

DanMay 15, 2003 at 5:32PM

There's no evidence that Zion is a simulation. It could be a simulation. Anything could be a simulation, but that's what the first movie was about, but I think the Wachowski's have been there, done that.

The most likely reason Neo can destroy the Sentinels is because he is part human, part program, and has some connection to the machine intelligence even when he's not inside the matrix. Like Smith/Bane. (This fits with Kottke's statement that Neo is Jesus. Word made flesh and all that.) He just didn't understand that until he met the architect.

I was dissappointed with the effects. The first movie was amazing because it looked unreal and completely real at the same time. The CG effects were just not up to it this time. It would look "OK" when there was a lot of action, but as soon as they slowed down to bullet time, everything turned all "Toy Story 1".

greg.orgMay 15, 2003 at 5:45PM

Hmm. There ARE a lot of spoilers in this comment thread.

It feels like I took the red pill.

Timothy SheyMay 15, 2003 at 5:50PM

The New Yorker had a very long piece about why people might have gotten so much more out of the first one. I always thought the first one was just a little silly, if only because the outfits they all chose to wear in the Matrix looked wildly impractical. Jesus in Prada?

samanthaMay 15, 2003 at 6:10PM

1) The guy at the end was definitely Bane, of the hand slicing fame. Bane got chocolate pudding'd by Agent Smith in one of the first few scenes, and then he picked up the phone and went all green tingly, which means he moved out of the Matrix into Zion-world.

2) I really like the idea of Zion being yet another sim, because then the Matrix would really be a game within a game, and all that good stuff.

3) I hope everyone stayed through the credits and caught the teaser for Revolutions!

4) When Carrie Ann Moss nearly died, I'm so, so glad they didn't have Neo save her life with a kiss.

5) The sex/rave scene was appallingly bad. And the worst part about that is that it was also completely, utterly unnecessary. If they wanted to give the free humans some background and color, there are tons of better ways to do it.

6) Think of The One as a leap year. The current Matrix generates a certain amount of mathematical/computer error, and having one person be "The One" might be a release valve. It's like a garbage disposal system. They need to gather the free humans because there's a certain percentage of people who just reject the Matrix. The One is basically their disposal unit.

7) An interesting analysis and discussion on Reloaded.

JonMay 15, 2003 at 6:26PM

I enjoyed the movie greatly. Yeah, the Zion rave sure could have been cut, but I'll deal. Things people have criticized:

--poor CGI
--labored dialogue
--the aforementioned Rave scene
--too much confusing philosophy
--longish fight scenes

So ok. Take a deep breath and step back to 1999. Did you REALLY love the Matrix that much when you FIRST laid eyes on it? Go have a real, hard listen to the dialogue. It's just as labored as anything in Reloaded. And the fight scenes? When I first saw the now cinematically worshipped Lobby scene, I thought, "yeah, cool, ok, get on with it already!"

The rave scene is, by far, the film's greatest flaw. As for the CGI, I honestly don't see what you're talking about. FYI, there were no 3D models in the 100 man fight scene. Weaving and Reeves were captured in high resolution film, fed into a computer, and recreated with a perfection great enough to be seen in close-up.

More than anything, Reloaded is a victim of impossibly high expectation. Matrix 1 WASN'T that perfect, but over the course of four years we've had a chance to appreciate every single detail of the film, and we've become charmed by the film's little flaws. In the same way, a decent number of really good Cheers episodes causes us to forget the slew of bad episodes, and we deem the show a classic after a few years.

Like I said, I really, really liked the movie. Even the philosophical parts, which yes, I understood. I was sitting in my seat going "Dear God, that's brilliant, but half the friggin' world won't get it." Not that I'm SUCH a genius or anything, but most people unconsciously expect "The same thing, only different." Reloaded is a different, more complex film, setting up a killer ending. Ultimately, it's a beautifully crafted film with killer action, and after a few repeat viewings and the inevitable sale on DVD, I garauntee you, we'll like it just as much as the first film.

Perhaps we'll like it even more when Revolutions comes out.... :)

RyanMay 15, 2003 at 7:07PM

I echo the comments about The Animatrix -- having had the chance to see an advance copy of the DVD, I was pleased to see that several stories were essentially threads that fed into the movie storyline. "Flight of the Osiris," for example (which I believe was shown as a trailer event in some theaters). The animated piece is about a ship that discovers the machine mission to drill down to Zion, and must get that information to a drop-off point within the matrix. Characters in the movie mention having received the intelligence dropped off by the Osiris crew. Then there's the kid who worships Neo when he gets back to Zion; he is the subject of "Kid's Story" on the DVD. (One of the two best pieces IMHO.) I'll have to go back and see if their are other nods along these lines.

Animatrix is a must-buy, BTW. Fantastic stuff.

Also agree with the comments about impossible expectations. The original Matrix just didn't leave any ground for this movie to break.

Ross KMay 15, 2003 at 7:16PM

Jason said (You have to wonder why they go through all that trouble and instead just invest in better security in their storage areas.)

Yeah... or instead of having that big drain pipe go into an open sewer-or-whatever, just install a giant blender. When someone manages to free themselves, they just get chopped into tiny pieces.

Adam HowellMay 15, 2003 at 8:57PM

OK, I've got it. I've been trying to come up with the next "Bullet Time" cinema leap and this is it: "Fast Forward Time". Spend millions of dollars on complex coreography, huge sets, and CGI tomfoolery and then - speed it the hell up. The "Burly Brawl" could have been over in a mind-blowing, adrenaline pumping 15 seconds! You wouldn't have had a chance to see how silly polygonal-Neo looked. Just imagine how much more plot you could fit into an action movie with "Fast Forward Time" (oh, well, there are still a few kinks to work out).

abhiMay 15, 2003 at 10:58PM

We don't like it now since we know how it was made. I think it still good as the promos on TV look pretty nice. And as Kinglsey said, it isn't released in India so I haven't seen it.

Brent GustafsonMay 16, 2003 at 1:00AM

I think it's obvious it's a matrix in a matrix. The fact that Agent Smith a so called program, can exist in the "real" world, and how Neo could use powers in the real world and see the future. Hell, it even makes sense why the sky is blackened, the humans then can't see the stars and be able to tell what year it *really* is. It's all just a mirrage for the 1% who see past the first matrix.

The thing that struck me is when the Oracle gives Neo some candy. He takes it, but doesn't eat it. She does, and it's a redish candy. A red pill? Will Neo find it in his pocket in the next film and "get out" of the second matrix?

Hell, I'm still not convinced Neo is even human. He may just be a program, which would explain the architect's fascination with his love for Trinity, cuz how could a program fall in love w/ a human?

copongcopongMay 16, 2003 at 2:03AM

since this film is a second part we cannot compare it to the first one which is very interesting since things are revealed one at a time. i find the freeway chase the best!

JamesMay 16, 2003 at 2:06AM

People. check out Computer Boy.


The Matrix 1.1?

greg.orgMay 16, 2003 at 3:20AM

Hm.

The rave reminded me of that hot and transparently-targeted-at -an "urban"-demographic Kahlua commercial a few years back.

On the other hand, every time I hear Zion, I think of Utah and Mormons. No Kahlua, decidedly not "urban." The armies of darksuited, cleancut dudes reinforced this.

Zion's like after-school sports: a way to keep kids from getting into trouble.

So far, though, Animatrix is better.

karlaMay 16, 2003 at 5:21AM

steve minutillo says:
Did anybody else notice this: In the scene where the Architect is explaining everything, he says that the first Matrix was perfect, but failed, so they constructed another one that takes into account the evil of man (or something along those lines). While he is saying that, images of evil are flashing on the screens behind him... Hitler, piles of skulls... and.... George W. Bush!

Yes! I could've sworn I saw GWB on one of the small screens behind Neo. The "Twins" reminded me of Milli Vanilli.

deniseMay 16, 2003 at 8:20AM

the thing that bugged me were the clothes. i always assumed in the first movie that their clothes were dirty and holey because they were salvaging remnants from a prior civilization and had no means to produce new ones. yet, when they are in zion, and it's obvious neo had been to zion several times before, all of the people there have beautiful clothes and jewelry and good food. then, after they leave zion, they all have ratty clothes again except the people on the other two ships. i just thought that didn't make any sense.

Eric JMay 16, 2003 at 9:39AM

Did anyone else think it was weird that when the Nebuchadnezzar was docking the Zion control room was this ultra-White futuristic looking Minority Report styled control room? Then after docking everything else in Zion and everywhere in the whole movie was dirty, run down and Blade Runner-esque with lots of wires and buttons and regular monitors.

I couldn't grasp that brief scene. It seemed too stark a contrast. Seems like there should be evidence of similar styled technology somewhere else in the world. It almost seemed like that scene was something they meant to cut out but forgot to remove. I dunno. It just struck me as really out of place. My expectations after that scene were for Zion to be some super-slick utopia place even though I "knew" it wasn't going to be.

Mr. NosuchMay 16, 2003 at 10:00AM

The first film was much more effective because it could be viewed metaphorically. The premise of living in a false world and being able to be freed by sheer conviction of will is compelling, even if it is hokey bullshit set in a stylish sci-fi comic book world. Who doesn't want to do something like that?

The second film has nothing that maps to anything real, so there's no way to identify with it. How can I understand characters that have undefined and extraordinary powers which have unclear constraints in a world that has arbitrary and shifting parameters? In a world where characters have potentially unlimited powers in a world that has no immutable rules, it's hard to care about what happens.

Even in cheesy comicbook films, the idea is the characters have powers that occur in the world as we (more or less) know it. But in Matrix Reloaded, not only is everything entirely up for grabs, reality is just a set of chinese boxes.

Is Neo trying to save humanity? Or are we going to find out that the whole thing is a series of nested simulations running on some giant distributed computing project made by Stephen Wolfram? Does it matter?

Mr. NosuchMay 16, 2003 at 10:01AM

The control room in Zion was a construct, by the way. They cut to showing people jacked in who looked just like the control room people.

Makes sense. Easier to make complex interfaces in a construct.

AaronMay 16, 2003 at 10:15AM

I don't think they are trying to say Neo is Jesus. Tales of rebirth, messiahs and prophecies are about as old as storytelling. Should they have just dropped the religious themes after the first movie cuz, duh, we get it?

Something I find funny about a lot of the negative reviews I've read is the underlying tones of "oh my gosh, it wasn't perfect!" All films and stories have flaws. I think the good in Reloaded far outweighed the bad, and I completely enjoyed myself. Willing suspension of disbelief, and all that jazz.

Bill BrownMay 16, 2003 at 10:17AM

I only saw the first one last weekend and I wasn't impressed. I may see TMR when it comes out on DVD or satellite—especially after all of the reviews I've read (both positive and negative).

Joshua KaufmanMay 16, 2003 at 10:52AM

Yes, it took itself too seriously at times, which was very noticable alongside all of the comic one-liners.

I must be the only one who didn't mind the rave/sex scene. When I watched the scene, I thought it was too long and stylized. But thinking back after the movie, it was great irony. It was meant to be a celebration of humanity when in the end humanity’s whole existence was contrived.

I didn't like the editing done when they were planning Neo's entrance to The Source. I understand the type of effect they were going for - explain it as it's happening - but I think the editing made it more confusing than it needed to be.

JonMay 16, 2003 at 10:52AM

My problem with Matrix one is that the plot isn't anything new, and the special effects had already been done in that Kodak commercial a few weeks/months before Matrix came out. And the rest was slo-mo.

So yeah, I'm in the small group that didn't like it, and I'm not seeing the second. (or third.)

Eric JMay 16, 2003 at 10:54AM

Mr. Nosuch says:
The control room in Zion was a construct, by the way. They cut to showing people jacked in who looked just like the control room people.

Makes sense. Easier to make complex interfaces in a construct.

So they are able to manipulate real life objects within the construct? I don't remember seeing anyone jacked in besides the ship's crew (though I could be wrong) but it doesn't seem to make sense that the dock operators can open doors and guide a ship in while jacked into some construct.

To my knowledge, there was not a single instance in either movie where actual real life objects (doors and guidance systems) were manipulated by people in a construct or even the Matrix. What did I miss here?

Mr. NosuchMay 16, 2003 at 11:08AM

When in a construct, a training program can be loaded. The training program is a physical thing external to the construct effecting something in the construct. Also communication is clearly possible between construct/matrix and people outside of it (the operator.) All those goofy displays also show stuff going on in the construct.

It's clear data/information can flow in/and out of constructs and the matrix, so there's no reason why it couldn't be interfaced to do other stuff as well. Remember that Zion has a "mainframe" that had to be carefully protected.

jimMay 16, 2003 at 11:51AM

The rave scene wasn't that out of place. What else would you do when you're facing impending robot doom? It was raising the sex quotient of the movie. Perhaps as an attempt to shift the feel of the movie from the cold sterility of the machines to the more carnal world of Zion and the "real" humanity.

FWIW, my take on Neo: Neo is Choice. Choice needs to exist in the Matrix to complete the simulation. The computers learned via the Oracle that humans must at some level choose to live in the Matrix. Hence the dismal failure that was the original "no-choice" Matrix, hence the Judas-Cypher in the first movie.

Choice however is contrary to the design of the Matrix built as a prison for the human batteries. So, as a work around they run the Matrix in cycles with Neo choosing X people from the Matrix to seed Zion (enter the origin of the Prophecy), live a couple generations accepting the side effects of choice in the system, and then mop up Zion and reinstall the operating sytem, er, Matrix.

It does sort of destroy the nurturing, maternal feel of the Oracle though. She's no more human than the Keymaker (there's no Dana, only Zul) just feeding Neo his clues.

I don't know what's significant about this iteration though. Is this the only Neo that's chosen to forsake humanity for love?

BrianMay 16, 2003 at 1:22PM

Ack! Thpfth! If Zion is just another sim, and the Matrix is really a game within a game, what if ALL of it just ends up being a massive sim on some kid's peecee? The idea being, the old argument "what if what we believe to be reality is just God dreaming?"

greg.orgMay 16, 2003 at 4:10PM

Not a sim on _some_ peecee, Brian, YOUR peecee. For $44.95 MSRP.

And if you have problmes with people intentionally wear shabby clothes when there are some nice ones to be had, steer clear of Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

FWIW, the opening meeting, where the captains are standing around talking about the boring (pun definitely intended), also seems like it's matrix-as-chat-space.

Of course, Wild Palms had that whole chat avatar thing, too...

NataliaMay 16, 2003 at 4:26PM

With me and my friends, the major debate was whether Neo's ability to stop the machines in the Real World was because he is part machine (like Smith is now part human with Bain) or whether it was because the Real World is just another Matrix (maybe the matrix for the machines, who some other beings are controlling?). I guess we'll find out in Revolutions..

deniseMay 16, 2003 at 5:49PM

my brain hurts. i just liked the pretty people in sharp clothes kicking some ass.

David G.May 16, 2003 at 5:50PM

A side note: Why human batteries? Why not something less troublesome, like cows? Infinite fields of tasty grass are a lot easier to simulate than, say, Sydney.

I liked the movie but wished I hadn't read the Wired article. I spotted evil Bush too -- almost subliminal.

anthony langfordMay 16, 2003 at 6:44PM

The Matrix: Reloaded was only slightly more entertaining than Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers: The Movie, and only slightly less thought provoking.

ChristinaMay 16, 2003 at 7:38PM

I didn't really like this one as much as the first, for all of the reasons stated here...

The shining moment though, was after the scene with the malovingian and the blonde woman...

My boyfriend leaned over and whispered "That was damn good cake..." :D

:-x

JoanMay 16, 2003 at 8:11PM

Got to say I agree with, I think it was Marshall - even an off-the-cuff remark about Neo as Jesus is painfully biased. There are a ton of philosophical takes on the idea of the Matrix and that's only one of them - discrediting several other, equally reasonable interpretations. And since the Wachowskis prefer to "let the spirituality of our film speak for itself," as they're quoted as saying several times, guess we won't ever know if there's a "right" interpretation - Christian or otherwise.

And the guy on the table at the end is the man who came up to the Neb crew as they were getting on the ship, who had just cut his palms and was going to (apparently) knife Neo. But it's not Cypher. Remember - his deal was that he could go back into the Matrix for turning Neo over to Smith in the original. So ostensibly he's not in "the real world" any more. I believe this character is one of Niobi's enemies in the "Enter the Matrix" video game but I can't place his name.

I liked the movie. And the effects. But that's just me.

BrianMay 16, 2003 at 11:41PM

Clarification: I believe Tank killed Cypher at the end of the first Matrix, so Cypher never made it back into the Matrix.

And another thing.... Those little quarter-size connectors in Neo's skin -- weren't those removed in the first Matrix.

Finally, here's an article about the blend of spirituality and storyline in the Matrix.

edMay 16, 2003 at 11:51PM

Review's up at Plight. In short, it was utter crap.

Eric JMay 16, 2003 at 11:56PM

Mr. Nosuch

I must disagree with your premise. Nobody in the construct has ever directly interacted with real world objects or information. Each time they talked to a real world person and THAT person gave them the download or directions or information. If they could interact with the computers then they wouldn't need the humans in the real world but could talk directly to the computers themselves for the downloads, directions, etc.

My point is, if the docking control station was a construct then:
1. Some real world person would have to be interacting with them and it would defeat the whole purpose of having them jacked into a construct.
2. If they are in a construct that can manipulate and directly interact with data or objects then this is a new technology not previously displayed or illustrated at any other time.

There are limitations to the back and forth communication between the construct people and those in the real world that may be downloading information. All construct exchanges with the real world rely on a person. So, I can't agree with you that the scene with the all-white docking control room is simply a construct.

Brian HamiltonMay 17, 2003 at 1:51AM

While the general philosophy base may be generic (savior, resurrection, etc.), the names are overwhelmingly of the Christian tradition. Trinity, Nebuchadnezzar, and Logos (Naiobi's ship) for example.

Re: the "survivor." I was under the initial impression that it was Cypher, but now I begin to doubt. A nagging rumor remains in my mind (from a friend, and as of yet unverified) that when Cypher and the other guys died in Matrix 1, there ended up being one less body bag than had been supposed dead. If that's true, probability points to Cypher. And it certainly looked like the same guy. Can anybody do an actor check?

Overall: I liked it, though I thought pieces (rave/sex, a few fight scenes) went too long and were overdone. I will positively see Revolutions, though.

Brian HamiltonMay 17, 2003 at 1:54AM

Oh, and also about the philosophy behind the movie: not that it really matters. Regardless of its intentions, it poses some interesting questions and challenges about faith in general.

BrianMay 17, 2003 at 2:40AM

We must quell this rumor before it gets out of hand. Joe Pantoliano was most assuredly not in TMR.

Honestly, I can't believe Anil started this rumor in the first place. :-)

J.D. RothMay 17, 2003 at 5:00AM

I had mixed feelings upon leaving the theater: yes, the action scenes were fun, but the rest of the film seemed thin.

Upon reflection, however, the end appeals to me. It reminds me of Edgar Allen Poe: "All that we see or seem/Is but a dream within a dream."

I think that, as has been noted, this film is very sequel-dependent. It's the first part of a two part film. The slow beginning led to a flurry of action scenes, and the meaty philosopical/mystical stuff was just coming to a head as the film ended. I'm anxious to see if The Matrix Revolutions can deliver.

What is the matrix?

Mr. NosuchMay 17, 2003 at 12:03PM

Eric:

If I am Neo standing in a construct, and I speak into the air "I need guns, lots of guns," somehow my voice, which exists only in the construct, is transmitted to the headset of the operator. The operator also is looking at a display screen, which allows him to see what I am doing.

Both the headset and the display are clearly electronic devices, as evident when they power down the ship. Therefore, what people do in a construct (and the matrix) can interface with electronics on the ship. If my voice can be directed to a headset, there is no reason my interaction with a control in the construct can't effect some device outside of the construct. It's all just technology. There's no explicit "one way" barrier.

I agree that the Zion control room is the most complex example of this shown in the movie, and it is fleetingly passed over, but if you watch the scene again, and notice how they cut it with a scene of people jacked in (with the same faces as the people in the control room), I can't see any other interpretation.

Eric JMay 17, 2003 at 12:52PM

Mr. Nosuch

Good points and I can't reall disagree much. I admit that I don't remember seeing the same faces so another viewing is in order. However, my point is that up till that one extremely brief scene the communication between the real world and the construct is not equal. Those in the construct can only blindly ask for things like guns and can't "see" or "hear" what is going on in the real world. However, the person at the controls can see and hear both the construct and real world.

If I am Neo in your same scenario and suddenly there a Sentinals attacking the Hovercraft I have no way of knowing unless someone tells me. There is no visual representation of what is going on.

True, in theory it would seem that if someone can speak to Neo from the real world and describe what is going on then it would seem that the technology exists to also visually represent that and allow Neo to initiate some defenses or something while in the construct. However, until that brief scene there was not a single instance of this occurring and my problem is that the scene was so brief and "new" that it's hard to accept your explanation.

It may be that you're right on and I really don't have any good explanation but if people are able to interact seamlessly with the real world while in a construct then why not fly hovercrafts this way? Why fool with the myriad of wires and keyboards when a white room with super nifty design is available?

RMay 17, 2003 at 1:32PM

junk food. the illusion hiding the fact that the matrix is nothing more than a knapsack of cliches and pop culture references (including real cultural artifacts that have been reduced to pop-culture taglines) is no more. "I have a dream..", two albino wanna-be Jamaican dreaded brits, another marginated black role used as a laugh-inducer after an intense action sequence? please. can they get any more desperate? and it was nice of them to throw in all those black people and black cultural things in there, but the star is still a white man. give me a break. trying to have your cake and eat it too? we all know black people are cool, but not like this. and by the way, this is excellent proof that you can make a so-so movie and totally butcher it with a bad ending. props to all the talented dorks who worked long hours on this project, but man, they should have worked on the X-Men instead.

dumpsterMay 17, 2003 at 5:52PM

Most stories suffer from the infamous '2nd Act' problem. The Matrix Reloaded suffers from the very beginning because we're only shown one half of the story. The cultural references mentioned in a previous post are rich and diverse, ultimately, the second film falls because it's just a pause. I wrote a little analysis over here. Let me know what you think.

Geoff GreshMay 17, 2003 at 7:17PM

I have a very geeky analogy, but it's the only way I've been able to truly understand why I was so disappointed by this sequel: In the first film, the Agents were the epitome of bigtime videogame bosses. They were scary, they were clever, and they seemed impossible to truly be overcome (as Morpheus pointed out, before the events of the first film, everyone that had gone up against an Agent had died). Then Neo went online and found the cheat codes, and suddenly the Agents weren't all that scary anymore. Anyone who's used cheats in a videogame before knows that the fun of being all-powerful quickly wears off. It was hard to be compelled by even the action sequences when we all knew that Neo was in almost complete control of the Matrix (in complete "God mode" for you FPS fans). I just didn't feel like he was ever really threatened, and that made me yawn, even when the camera was traveling at light speed.

RMay 17, 2003 at 9:38PM

Sometimes I feel The Matrix is just a cheap ripoff of Tron.

Bruno CunhaMay 17, 2003 at 10:03PM

A reasonable theory (massive spoilers):

-In The Matrix, Agent Smith captures Morpheus in order to gain access codes to Zion. He wants OUT of the Matrix, he wants to be truly free. However, he failed to get the codes. So, as a computer program, he infects someone, this Bane for example, and exits the Matrix in their body. Hence his appearance in Zion. A lot of the dialogue in The Matrix Reloaded hints at this. And just to clarify, he is CLEARLY on the bed beside Neo in the ending. Besides, Cypher's dead.

-The white looking people = The Twins.

-Focus on Link: This is explanable. My friend told me that the actor who played Tank was fired during the shooting of the sequel. Supposedly, it was because he was stealing food from concession stands en masse. So in the plot, they pretend he died and replace him with Link. Link plugged right into the story; his story would have made perfect sense if he was Link OR Tank. Either way, it would have been an insight into an old character or the discovery of a new one.

-The rave scene: There must be an explanation, do you not have faith in those that have dreamed the entire conception of the Matrix? Someone slightly touched on what I was going to say; it signifies the celebration of human life to contrast the contrived state millions felt within the Matrix. It symbolized the primal feel of life those in the Matrix missed out on. Look at it: sexual dancing, drums, you've got it all.

-Trinity becomes teenageresque: Wow, please don't criticize someone for falling in love.

-Everyone's fighting Agents: Remember, Morpheus fought Smith in the first film. He's a warrior, and his character has grown. He beats an agent in the sequel, but not by much. And Trinity, she gets her ass handed to her by an agent. Neo, after discovering the powers of being the anomaly known as The One, has always handled Agents nicely. In the sequel, he has more, longer fights with multiple enemies, so that was an enjoyable twist in the action.

-Neo stops the Sentinels: most of my friends have concluded that the Matrix is within a Matrix. I thought so also, until I read a comment about Jesus being the commander of flesh and everything else. Neo is an anomaly in a computer program. He possesses powers to understand the Matrix deeper than any previous "One" can; he can now modify it (takes the bullet out of Trinity so smoothly). This signifies an understanding of the robots, which would make sense when he says "Something's different; I can feel them." So Neo's power in the Matrix created his powers out of it.

Here's some real juicy stuff:

Okay, the Matrix has been rebuilt six times with the anomaly always forming. Humans need robots (The counselor touches on it when discussing technology early in te film) and the robots need humans (to fuel the Matrix and their own existence). The Architect gives Neo two choices. One, he chooses 23 people to restart Zion (notice, there were 23 counselors on the board) and eventually the anomaly would appear again and the cycle would repeat itself forever. His second choice was to save Trinity at the cost of the collapse of Zion and the Matrix as well. However, Neo was the first to fall in love and experience emotion. He already made this decision, and he had to understand why, according to the Oracle atleast. This was foreshadowing the end when he decided to save Trinity.

This is where it gets good: it's all in the open now. There is no prophecy, nothing can be predicted because Neo chose the door that was never chosen befored. This has never happened before and will ultimately decide the fate of the Matrix and everything that revolves around it. Mr. Smith must play a vital role, he is the only other one that can understand the Matrix on any level close to how Neo can. The only details I really saw in the Revolutions trailer were: The Oracle's assistant is around, lots of Sentinels and movement outside of the Matrix, and more incredible action.

I loved the sequel. The philosophy was new on top of old and it's allowing for many possibilities for the finale. The action scenes were awesome: if you notice the small things like the "low-quality" of Neo's face or whatever people are complaining about, you're not watching the action scenes for the right reasons. They were new and awesome. It was all great. I just can't wait for The Matrix Revolutions.

GrahamMay 18, 2003 at 12:39AM

My review, with a mention of a couple gaping plot gaps, unless I missed something (which is possible, I had an idiot in my theatre who was snoring for 5 minutes).

A couple quick plot questions--maybe someone can explain them:

Okay, so The Architect... he's like, the master program of Tron fame?

And he tells Neo this is the 6th time someone like Neo has come along, along with everything else. Is there any reason for Neo to believe *anything* The Architect says? After all, isn't he on the Machines' side? Couldn't the door to the right just be a trick?

Door on the right, you reset the Matrix and pick 23 people to repopulate it, yes? Uhm, so? How does that have any effect on the Machines that are burrowing into Zion to destroy it? What am I missing?

Neo picks the left door, which will lead him back to the Matrix, and to Trinity, and the end of the Matrix (or so The Architect says). But, it doesn't. Neo goes back, saves Trinity, and leaves the Matrix (or so it seems so far). Was The Architect just lying?

Bruno CunhaMay 18, 2003 at 1:56PM

The first choice allowed the complete restarting of the world, focusing on Zion. The Sentinels would die off and the conflict would be at ease, temporarily. The second choice, which Neo took, was to save Trinity at the cost of total destruction. He took the chance, and the Sentinels are only closer to Zion. If Zion dies to the Sentinels, the Matrix will eventually collapse and all will be gone. The cool thing is, Neo is the first to feel emotion and make the choice he made, so no one can tell what will happen.

The Architect had no reason to lie. I think he's more neutral than he may appear. We'll see, I'm going to see Reloaded again in a couple hours.

Tom DolanMay 18, 2003 at 6:28PM

One word review: Weak.

BrianMay 18, 2003 at 8:01PM

Brian Hamilton says:
While the general philosophy base may be generic (savior, resurrection, etc.), the names are overwhelmingly of the Christian tradition. Trinity, Nebuchadnezzar, and Logos (Naiobi's ship) for example.

I beg to differ. The names are representative of a broad spectrum of beliefs: Soren (homage to Kierkegaard, no doubt), Persephone and Morpheus (both from Greek mythology), Merovingian (ancient Euro) and Bane (wolf's bane, or just bane of neo's existence?), Niobe (Roman mythology) ... And from the first movie, how about Switch, Apoc, Tank and Dozer? No christian tradition there that I can see at all.

Brian Hamilton says:
Oh, and also about the philosophy behind the movie: not that it really matters. Regardless of its intentions, it poses some interesting questions and challenges about faith in general.

I can't imagine there's a thing in The Matrix universe that should challenge anyone's faith unless they are hopelessly confused to begin with. To be certain, whatever philosophy the Matrix portrays is as much a "stew" as the sources from which the characters' names are drawn.

MarshallMay 18, 2003 at 10:25PM

A few observations, before getting back to the philosophy:

- I don't think it's a Matrix inside a Matrix, partly because I'm not sure how to explain why Neo would be so hurt by the confrontation with the sentinels, and partly because I instinctively think the Ws would find that cheesy. Not that either is much impetus for convinction... but it seems like the movie is going in the direction of empowered humanity, rather than increased plot trickery. Having a Matrix inside a Matrix starts to wreak of a deus et machina, which I have to believe they wouldn't do to us. :)

- Bane, or whatever the traitor's name was (the fella who was going to cut Neo after cutting his own hands), was the guy on the table at the end. I think the Wachowskis are on record as saying that Cypher (and Joe Pantoliano) is gone for good after the first.

Jason - I've seen the movie, now... not that I'm not sure how seeing the movie could explain away the absence of substance in, uh, what the hell you're talking about.

Why the casual "Jesus is Neo" remark? Why the distrust of the writers' philosophical chops? Do you have any kind of argument, or at least a collection of observations, to back it up, or is that just your gut reaction? It's very widely accepted that they do know what they're doing, and widely discussed by people who know them that they are well-versed in theology and philosophy, so I'm interested in hearing an articulate case against those elements of these films.

Brian remarks with "certain"-ty that the film contains little more than a philosophy stew, but several compelling cases (even a few on the film's home page) have been made that suggest there's a framework in place. Where's the "certain"-- or at least, decent-- disagreement spelled out?

MarshallMay 18, 2003 at 10:29PM

Heh... I said convinction. Conviction. Oops. Must've been a glitch in the Matrix...

BrianMay 18, 2003 at 11:05PM

Brian remarks with "certain"-ty that the film contains little more than a philosophy stew, but several compelling cases (even a few on the film's home page) have been made that suggest there's a framework in place. Where's the "certain"-- or at least, decent-- disagreement spelled out?

It's not my contention that by virtue of the fact that the philosophical underpinnings are by nature a stew they are also, ipso facto, "little more;" i.e., of little or no value, or that they lack a framework.

This article I linked to above suggests "(i)ts script...draws on Platonic philosophy, Greek mythology, Buddhism, and postmodernism...."

The same article quotes the Wachowski's as saying that all of "their allusions to myths and philosophy were intentional."

My contention isn't particularly unique, either: The Wachowski brothers have taken ingredients from various spiritual recipes in our melting-pot world, and made something all their own.

AfraelMay 19, 2003 at 10:26AM

I haven't seen the movie yet, I will be showcased here in PR next thursday, but I think there's been some much hype (*I loathe those powerade commercials*) that there is no way the movie can fullfil everybodies expectations. I've seen the trailers and about the Neo vs 100 Agent Smiths, it does show the computer generation, we know its CGI, the trick is to make so real that you could be amazed by it.

I cant say anything about the rest, but I know the movie has some sort of romantic twist to it - come on it's supposed to be an action flick.....

shawnMay 19, 2003 at 10:53AM

Well it was no Lizzie MaGuire but I liked it better than X2. Which given my comic geek creds is surprising. It does leave you with an Empire Strikes Back cliffhanger but if you sit through all the end credits they show you the first trailer for Matrix: Revolutions.

samMay 19, 2003 at 11:15AM

Lots of comments, crazy. A few notes though, because I can.

I think if they ended with 'its a matrix inside a matrix' that would seem far too much like a cheesy "Pull out at the end and reveal the whole world inside a snow globe." ending. Bad bad bad.

Many of the criticisms of the movie seem to stem from the fact that it is the second movie in a trilogy. These aren't movies like Diehard or Naked Gun where you can watch any movie from the series without seeing the others and be just fine. Those movies are all different movies that have the same characters. The Matrix is one movie that has been cut into three two hour acts so that our short attention spans can make it through without falling asleep.

If you take a book, open it up one third of the way through, and read until you are two thirds of the way through, then you aren't going to think it is that great. The first part contains the amazing revelations, the revealing of the wonderful characters, unfolding layers of mystery, etc. The last movie contains the climax of the action and the resolution of conflict. The second movie just contains 'meat', just stuff that needs to happen to setup the climax. That stuff might not be as mind blowing as the stuff from the exposition in the first movie, but it is key to the story.

I agree with the comment earlier that we have elevated the first movie to a cult status, and now nothing can compare to the mental vision we have of it. These aren't seperate movies that are competing, they are part of the exact same movie.

I highly recommend going out and seeing the original matrix before seeing the new one. I saw the original as a midnight movie at one of our local theaters a week before seeing Reloaded, and it helped by making me see Reloaded as a continuation, rather than a whole seperate movie.

The Neo vs. 100 Smiths scene looks like a damn video game. However, I'm going to give the directors the benefit of the doubt here, and suggest that it might look that way on purpose. They aren't fighting in the 'real' world. They are fighting in a virtual game world. Neo and Smith both know the rules of the world, and they know which rules can be bent or broken. They know it like two video game geeks know Tekken, because they've spent weeks and weeks playing it. I think the scene is supposed to remind us of the fact that Neo plays the matrix like its a game. When in the french guy's house later, this is even alluded to more, as they describe it all as 'just a game'.

To clear up confusion, the guy at the end isn't cypher. Its bane. Earlier in the movie, two men are in the matrix, they are about to leave, and they say to each other something to the effect of 'hurry, all that matters is getting this back.' one guy takes the envelope and picks up the phone, but the second guy, Bane, is still there. Smith does his pudding thing on him, and the guy becomes a Smith. Then the new smith picks up the phone and goes back into the matrix. 'Real Bane' is now infected with Smith. He is the guy cutting his hands up and looking suspicious. He's presumably the guy who set off the EMP charges early (though his involvement could have been different, plot twists are still possible), destroying the Zion fleet, and he is the guy in a coma alongside Neo.

That doesn't necessarily mean that zion is another matrix. Smith and Neo talk about 'sharing' something. They each have new code. Neo has gained the ability to affect the programs of the matrix on a base level. Smith may have gained the ability to affect the human mind like a program.

The white control room makes lots of sense to me. If you are setting up your own matrix (as opposed to jacking into the matrix owned by the machines), then there is no reason at all that you couldn't have high speed interactive connections from the construct to the control systems in the real world. All it is is a computer monitor for your whole brain. They talk and the information is heard by the people outside the construct. They push a button in the construct, and it activates a program running on the door control system outside the construct. If you build your own matrix, then you can have all the connections between them that you want. We haven't seen them do it before, because the big matrix, the machine's matrix, isn't under human control.

Presumably, the reason we don't see them use these fancy construct rooms is that in most places, you need someone outside of a construct who can protect you if necessary. If a whole ship's crew is inside of constructs, it just takes one little EMP to kill the whole ship. If someone is outside the construct at all times, then that person can protect the ship in ways that a jacked in person couldn't. Thats why the operator never goes in himself.

Anyway, I thought the movie was a great movie. Its not as 'wow' as the first, but you would have been wrong to expect it to be. Its a setup for the amazing ending. In a few years we'll have all three of the movies on their special edition disks, and we'll see them not as three movies, but as one long movie, and then it won't be as big of a deal that the second doesn't have as much 'magic'. I've got more review here if anyone is interested. I know every damn blogger has already reviewed it, but hey, it felt good to do. ;)

OmegajuiecMay 19, 2003 at 12:30PM

The whole reson the operator doesn't go in is because they have no 'plugs'. Link and Tank were both born in the 'real world' so they don't have any of the plugs on them that Neo and company do. They don't go into the Matrix because they can't.

AndyMay 19, 2003 at 2:37PM

After a second viewing, I'm much happier with it. With some satisfaction in knowing where things were going, and my opening night jitters gone, I was able to really enjoy the film scene by scene for what it was, and stop wondering where it was all going, and if it was going to be good enough to meet my expectations.

The second film is just completely different than the first. There is no way that it could have been at all similar to the first. The first movie was about slowly and artfully letting a cat out of the bag. It was a mystery.

But once the cat was out, it was out. I'm glad that the sequel forged ahead, showed us all the cool stuff we wanted to see (Zion, Neo kicking ass, etc) and still managed to complicate the surrounding mystery.

The question "What is the Matrix?" is still unanswered.

Morpheus' best answer, in the first film, is: "control."

Did anyone notice that this film raised the question "What is control?"

The deal with the Architect was interesting. It seems that they can't prevent some people from rejecting the Matrix, nor some from developing superhuman powers inside it. As a release valve, they allow these to escape to Zion, and allow them to pull other "problem children" out as well. The Oracle makes damn sure that they seek out and remove "the One," and once he's out, they send an army to destory Zion. Iteration complete. Next round. They don't wait around for more than a single "One" to develop.

However, I still have no idea why the Architect presented Neo with the 2-door choice. It makes no sense to me at all. But I'm willing to let that hang for now. It's only till November.

Too bad the music sucked so bad, though.

GinaMay 19, 2003 at 2:40PM

Ok, a lot of folks "don't get" the Rave scene...but if you were paying attention, Morpheus was asked to "complete the pray" made by the councillor, and if you were also paying attention, they said that they were meeting at "the temple"...in a lot of religions, dance and drumming is a form of prayer...so, to me it was a giant prayer...but that could just be my pagan-ness coming through (and yes, that includes the sex scenes...I give the Bros. W some credit for being pan-religious...)

Alex HalavaisMay 19, 2003 at 3:14PM

I really, really hope that Neo's new powers outside of the Matrix do not lead to a "Matricies all the way down" conclusion. This has already been done to death (eXistenZ, 13th floor), and it would be sad to finish on such a cliche.

The difference between the first and second films is clear, I think. The first did not take itself very seriously. It was a hyper-real version of the cyberpunk genre, and played with "haha, only serious" really well. Now its like the bros are somehow no longer in on the joke. It looks like they took the embrace by scholars and philosophers too seriously.

Geoff GreshMay 19, 2003 at 11:32PM

The Matrix is one movie that has been cut into three two hour acts so that our short attention spans can make it through without falling asleep.

Yay, a $27 movie! Next step in the evolution: split up 90 minute movies into 3 cliffhangers, increasing amount of showtimes possible during one day and tripling revenue.

Bill BrownMay 20, 2003 at 3:09AM

I thought that the sentinels stoppage was more due to the fact that a ship immediately came upon them and probably launched an EMP. The sentinels dropping was consistent with the same thing in the first movie.

I don't think an EMP would have an effect on a person, but maybe it did.

Nicky PeetersMay 20, 2003 at 7:46AM

About Bane-Smith :
He's presumably the guy who set off the EMP charges early

I don't know if it's already posted here, but what if the Smith-infected Bane set of an EMP charge in the same way that NEO set one of in the 'real world' ? And what if NEO somehow inherited this ability from his little encounter with Smith ?

It would explain why BOTH are in coma at the end of the film...
It still doesn't explain anything more than that but it's another possibility worth mentioning ?

jkottkeMay 20, 2003 at 10:32AM

Unloading on the Matrix Reloaded at The Morning News.

jkottkeMay 20, 2003 at 11:50AM

Good thread so far. Thanks for participating, everyone.

There's a theme running through this thread that there's a lot to get out of the Matrix movies and that if you don't get that much from it, you're uneducated, not interested in philosophy, or weren't paying close attention. My view is that the movies are not that deep. The depth of the movie doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get a lot out of it...someone wrote an entire book on philosophy and The Simpsons and it's hard to imagine The Simpsons was conceived as a philosophical masterwork.

As films, The Wachowskis' Matrices most closely resemble George Lucas's Star Wars, James Cameron's Titantic, Peter Jackson's LoTR movies, Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek films & series, and Sam Raimi's Spider-Man. These are all good (or even great) films -- fun, engaging, etc. -- and much has been written about the significance (be it emotional, philosophical, spiritual, or social significance) of each of these films. James Lileks even called Spider-Man "more important, in the long run, than any other movie, novel, artwork or musical composition that will be produced in 2002". But these are not deep movies and no amount of books or articles written by famous philosophers will make them richer or more densely layered with meaning.

The depth and significance people attach to these films remind me of the deep, philosophical conversations you have in your freshman year of college with your roommates until the wee hours of the morning, possibly while high. The participants may find meaning in such conversations, but Nietzsche, Baudrillard, Foucault, or Camus you are not.

But that's just my take on it all.

AndyMay 20, 2003 at 12:11PM

Did anyone notice that Cornel West is in the movie? He's one of the council members.

West is a professor of religion and afro-american studies at Princeton. He's was in the news briefly last year as he proposed a pilgrimage of Harvard's African-American professors to Princeton.

I'm not quite sure what he's doing here.

ShyamalMay 20, 2003 at 12:32PM

I guess I chose a very wrong time to go offline. I seem to have missed all the action.

I posted my comments about the movie, just minutes after having seen it. I was pretty content with the effects and the stunts. But the whole idea of leaving the movie unfinished was disappointing. I felt the story wasn't convincing enough either. My hopes for Revolutions won't be as high now!

GrahamMay 20, 2003 at 1:06PM

Jason: I think they're definitely deeper than, say, Star Wars or Spider-Man, but I think "deep" is something of a misnomer. I think yes, parts of the movie's philosophy are deep (I'm still trying to wrap my head around the architect's whole spiel), but overall, it's not really "depth" as it is "revelation" or "exposure" to different philosophies or ways of thinking about the world. (Kind of like how people in the film have their whole world shift when they realize what the Matrix is?) Similar feeling you get from taking a Hinduism or Buddhism class, if you've been raised in Christian America.

In the first film, it was the revelation that "maybe this world isn't really real" that astounded my friends and I in college as sophomores. In the second film, there are similar "new philosophies" that the audience is exposed to, but I don't think they're integrated into the plot as well, or explained as well, either.

This CorporateMofo article really helped me understand the philosophies present in the second film, but in my opinion, it shouldn't have had to. I'm an intelligent person; I watched the movie closely. I think if the Brothers Wachowski had done a better job weaving the ideas into the plot, I would have understood everything the first time around. (Or maybe they want me to go see the movie again, and shell out another 10 bucks.)

Gina: I don't know that people don't "get" the rave scene, as much as we all just hate the rave scene.

tj hookerMay 20, 2003 at 1:08PM

Overall, I was quite disappointed. I wasn't expecting perfection -- a sequel after all -- but the editing was so choppy. And the rave scene was pure Pepsi commercial. I agree with the view that making Neo so omnipotent really robbed the film of suspense. For instance, the best part of the car chase was the fact that Neo wasn't around; when Morpheus fought that Agent on the truck, some of that original Matrix juice started flowing, because remains some fragility to Morpheus, a fragility that Neo lacks. Like when he beats all the Agent Smiths: why couldn't Smith have made hundreds of thousands, or even millions of himself? Like, uh, real viruses...?

I did like fact that the Architect proposed the geekiest of premises: that the whole story is one iteration of a "for" loop. And Monica Belucci was pretty yowsa.

Jonathan RosenbergMay 20, 2003 at 1:11PM

However, I still have no idea why the Architect presented Neo with the 2-door choice. It makes no sense to me at all.

Choice is essential to the Matrix -- or, at least, maintaining the illusion of choice. The lack of choice (free will) is why the first one failed. By offering choice, even though the outcome is predictable, they maintain control.

Of course, the fact that Neo chose the non-predictable option kinda means everything is up for grabs in the third film.

MarshallMay 20, 2003 at 2:04PM

Jason -

The freshman year analogy is interesting, to the extent that it works as a very accurate way of communicating how you feel. Of course, like any good sophomoric remark, it also has a certain amount of enough-to-be-dangerous mischief to it, taking a stab at anyone in your readership that thinks there's more philosophy to the Matrix movies than a Star Wars-esque smorgasbord.

The movies you mention all have elements of philosophy to them to which people (and certainly film cults) have attributed significance in their own ways. Unlike the movies you've mentioned, however, the writers of the Matrix films are on record as saying that exploration of philosophical issues was chief among their goals (as well as top-notch kung-fu) while they created this trilogy.

As anyone who's studied literature knows, motifs and archetypes historically recur in the work of both those who intend to reference them and those who do not. Great stories tend to be the ones that resonate well with a universal message, and such messages tend to occur in patterns when observed comparatively across many works over long periods of time. But the fact that you stumble upon little details or nuances accidentally does not mean that the Matrix movies were made in an undisciplined way.

I don't think, as you suggest I might, that you're uneducated or uninterested in philosophy; on the contrary, I assume that you are the converse, and as a result, I expect-- perhaps unfairly-- a more articulate response to specific aspects of the movie. But your reaction leaves me wondering if you pulled the names of four philosophers from a Google search rather than your learned experience.

My suspicion is that either you don't have much background in philosophy, or that if you do, you simply haven't paid the movie(s) the favor of much independent thinking. If you have, and nothing worth sharing has occured to you, it may also be true that you haven't even bothered to carefully read and consider the work of those for whom the movies have raised some interesting philosophical questions. I find it hard to believe, however, that anyone with their lights on regarding philosophy could come away from the films, and the corresponding discussions thereof, without any awareness of the organized philosophy inside the story.

There are certainly people out there who don't have the background in philosophy, but have their wits about them enough to pick up on various ingredients of the "philosophical stew" and notice multiple influences. We live in an culture where people make surface observations all the time, but rarely care to explore them at any substantial depth. While you may be on safe ground assuming that no one in your readership has philosophical chops the likes of Nietzsche and company, I think you do yourself a great disservice by assuming that no one in your audience has enough academic training or well-informed interest to do more than intellectually tread water.

There's much more to discuss here than "Whoa, dude, he's like Buddha and Mohammad all at the same time," but if all you've got is "Neo is Jesus, we get it" (your initial "freshman" volley, I remind you) followed by condescending remarks about your readers and generalized observations, you do little more than artfully dodge the rigorous discussion of which sort you pretend to be capable with your quick-and-dirty allusion to a few vowel-heavy philosophers.


Andy -

Cornel West is in the movie because the Wachowskis asked him to be. He was invited by them during the filming to talk about philosophical issues, and as reported by a few different articles, he was "quite impressed" with the scope of their knowledge, for whatever that's worth.

Killing The BuddhaMay 20, 2003 at 2:20PM

We just posted a piece on it, for those who might be interested.

AndyMay 20, 2003 at 2:39PM

We live in an culture where people make surface observations all the time, but rarely care to explore them at any substantial depth

Okay, I'll bite, Marshall. You imply that you have the necessary background to distill and appreciate the philosophical intent and athletics of the film. Enlighten us, please! This is not a taunt. I'm sure you're right in many respects and would like to hear what you have to say about the film.

I agree it's really too easy to conclude "bah! there's nothing there!"

MarcusMay 20, 2003 at 4:55PM

I heard a lady on the radio this morning urging the film makers to take some responsibility for the rash of violent freak-outs that seem to be occuring in theaters when schizophrenics have subjected themselves to this movie.

I don't remember hearing about schizophrenic freak-outs when Spiderman came out.

Bill BrownMay 20, 2003 at 5:48PM

Finally got my review up.

nramseyMay 20, 2003 at 5:58PM

Great discussion, glad to read so many viewpoints. Not that it should be necessary this far down, but !!!SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!!

Here's the point I am stuck on: I thought Zion was destroyed. When they are on the ship at the end and they are talking about how it was a massacre, a Sentinel for everyone man, women, and child, I thought it meant that everyone in Zion was dead. But Link didn't seem that upset that his wife was dead, so I was confused.

If I could figure this part out, then I know the rave scene would come into focus for me.

AndyMay 20, 2003 at 6:30PM

They were talking about the ill-fated counter-attack that Lock arranged to take place in one of the utility pipes or passageways above Zion. That didn't go so well, apparently, because the premature EMP took down 5 ships, etc. It was a slaughter.

I swear there is a moment, though, when you're looking down the unlighted column of Zion, at the criss-crossing paths, and there are sentinels slowly creeping forward, as if their tunneling is complete and they're ready to attack the sleeping city.

I'm none too clear there.

Sean DuncanMay 20, 2003 at 6:57PM

Here's my review. I have pretty much the same take as you, Jason. It was bloated, overly serious and (I think) the Wachowskis had too much creative control (much like Lucas clearly does with the latest Star Wars flicks). Do these people never get the point that a lean, mean movie nearly always beats out the self-important "epic"?

--sean

jbMay 20, 2003 at 9:20PM

1) cypher dies in the first movie, he's not reinserted

2) agent smith takes over bane's body inside the matrix so when he is pulled out he is still agent smith because, as we all learned in the first movie, "your mind makes it real." I think this is the same reason Neo is able to be the One outside the matrix too, because his mind has made it real, but i'm probably wrong and i'll probably be corrected in revolutions, but it works for now.

3) everybody needs to watch the animatrix and play Enter the Matrix. both tell much much much more of the story and if you don't want to be covered in story, just watch the first movie and forget about the rest.

4) please don't act like nothing makes sense because i think a lot of it isn't supposed to yet. much more will be explained in revolutions and i can't wait for it.

in closing i'll say that while the first movie did make a little sense the first time you watch it, you would find out more and more in each subsequent viewing, so give this one the chance you gave that one. i know that the second time i saw it i found myself understand much more about the movie and the philosophy. and go back and watch the first one again because you'll realize that the first one makes even more sense now and you'll realize how amazing the FX in the new really are despite a few short comings in recreating reality perfectly.

Sean DuncanMay 20, 2003 at 9:44PM

This has been said many times, but I'll say it again -- why should someone have to watch a bunch of animated films plus play a game plus rewatch a bad movie in order to "get" the bad movie?

A lot of it just doesn't make sense. Why does Neo have superpowers in the "real world"? Unless this is a hint that the world of Zion/the "real world" is yet another level of fakeness, I'll be really disappointed.

The Wachowskis made this series in order to create a new type of superhero mythology. It worked in the first one, it didn't in the second.

--sean

Mark T.May 20, 2003 at 10:04PM

I thought the movie was great. The Wachowskis want us to interpret the movie how we see fit. If you want a Kung-Fu movie, you get one. If you want a deeper spiritual significance you get that.. Keep in mind, there is even more to the names and characters than the obvious Christian and Greek Pagan symbolism. Ex. The 'Merovingian' are a famed lineage of French monarchy that have a peculiar history about them. There is myth that they are the surviving bloodline of Christ who according to this legend, did not die on the cross but was rescued by the Apostles, fled and married Mary whom then prospered with their children ultimately creating the Merovingian bloodline. Remember Merovingian in the movie? Dig a little deeper and you will find a lot more to think about.

jbMay 20, 2003 at 10:05PM

like i said, if you don't want the entire story, watch the first, pretend like it makes sense by itself and forget about the rest. and i also said that a lot of it isn't supposed to make sense. imagine if you cut 'akira' in half or 'metropolis' in half; you'd bitch about it not making sense.

and i think neo has powers in the real world because he made it real. it's all about mind over matter and therevada buddhist beliefs, but like i also said, it's unlikely that we are supposed to understand it yet.

evanMay 21, 2003 at 12:30AM

I unfortunately have no insight into the film, but there is something that I noticed that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else, though of course, I haven't looked everywhere.

Nobody smoked in the movie, not even the Oracle, who smoked in the first Matrix. It seems as though she kicked the habit and took up candy instead (am I remembering this correctly? I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong ;)

As an aside, I think this may have been the first film I've seen in years where there was no smoking; kudos to the film-makers.

A question: What product placement did you pick up on? (Besides of course the Phatalacs)

TheoMay 21, 2003 at 12:42AM

I think the Brothers Wachowski have done several things in this movie that no one has done before, not the least of which is make a sequel that is actually two movies, Reloaded and Revolutions, separated by six months. Reloaded is getting criticized here and in the press because things are left unexplained at the end or because it lacks the tidiness of the first movie or because some scenes appear to be useless. Bollocks. The original film was self-contained because it had to be. But with more money and greater latitude, the brothers have pushed the boundaries and given us something new, not just in special effects and a general synthesis of intellectual and popular, but in the staging of new kind of storytelling itself. And we as a culture don't like new that strays from formula. I don't believe this movie should be criticized using the criteria we use for other movies--because it's not a complete movie. I have issues with the film, there's no doubt; it's not what I wanted or thought it would be--and I'm glad. Because I'm patient and can wait for the second half of this sequel to be over in November. I think it's an inherent problem with our culture in general...we're too accustomed to instant gratification. 'Why does Neo have power outside the Matrix?' 'I don't like it cause it doesn't make sense.' I'll be happy to recant and say it all sucked and was lame if Revolutions doesn't follow through, but for now I'm content remembering why I liked The Matrix more and more as I waited for the sequel. Because I could sit with the questions I had remaining at the end of the film, it made me think and not be dismissive of new ideas, and I remained open to the possibility that there was another way of thinking about the world.

Bill BrownMay 21, 2003 at 1:17AM

Product placements:

Audi
Cadillac
GMC

I think there were some others, but I can't recall them immediately.

whuzzaMay 21, 2003 at 1:53AM

Next to the blatant Cadillac CTS commercial, there's the sweet Ducati 996 that Trinity speeds around in.

Thanks to Jon for reminding me that the first movie wasn't all that groundbreaking as the hype would have you believe. The same topics were explored in Dark City and Thirteenth Floor, albeit with slightly less violence.

I thoroughly enjoyed Reloaded still. Skip the comments from others and watch the movie yourself.

retrovirusMay 21, 2003 at 2:30AM

Theo: What about Back to the Future II and III?

Product placement: The dorky Samsung "official Matrix phone"

TheoMay 21, 2003 at 10:43AM

retrovirus: BtF 2 and 3 were each independent movies, each had the standard three-act arc, each could exist independently from the other--I'm not talking about movies being shot back to back...my point is that I don't think Reloaded can exist on its own as a traditional narrative, and again, when Revolutions opens, I think we'll see it not as third in a trilogy, but second half of a sequel.

The two films need each other in order to be one complete movie.

mojokittenMay 21, 2003 at 12:04PM

I can't find if this has already been stated, but I think it's important to note that the party in Zion was not actually a rave. It looked like Stomp (or a combo similar) was playing. The music initially sounded tribal. It isn't until Neo & Trinity start doing the hokey pokey that the techno starts up - as soundtrack music, not the music from the environment. Just had to get that out of Ye Olde System. The reason I've had to set this straight with far too many people I know is that the idea of a tribal gathering to dance around a fire (slbeit a bit scantily clad in this case) is not new. It's as old as rebirth mythology. Early tribes had to be content with drums and other makeshift instruments since Panasonic hadn't come out with a good CD player yet ;) It makes more sense when you think of it less as a rave and more as the end of a tribal council... with a helluvalot of people.

SteveMay 21, 2003 at 12:09PM

Sean Duncan says : why should someone have to watch a bunch of animated films plus play a game plus rewatch a bad movie in order to "get" the bad movie?

Why should we, as a public, has ALWAYS to watch stupid movies ? At last with Reloaded I saw one that requiere more than a Homer IQ to get. Who cares that you don't want to think at all, and for ONCE, having a movie that ask more than usual ?

It worked in the first one, it didn't in the second.

You think so. We are legions who think not. Too bad for you, cauz actually Reloaded DO worked well.

RBMay 21, 2003 at 12:16PM

I've just read through all of these, and had thought on the extended universe/multiple media. People say that they shouldn't have to wait or watch more just to get a movie. My thoughts? Then don't. But don't complain. The way it's been built, that is tantamount (as previously mentioned) to opening a book, reading 1/4 of it, and saying, "This blows. I don't understand anything. It seems too concentrated on this or that or the other thing."

I believe that the Waschowskis are trying to change the entertainment experience. We're just used to a movie being a movie. Obviously, the potential for more has always been there, and no one has ever tried before (well, ok, sorta, but they failed miserably. But no one's tried to this extent. OK, fine Star Wars. But even though it was started with an intent, it was not for what it has grown into). They're not forcing you to do any more, but they're offering the chance. Those who have seen the Animatrix (advanced copies) said it adds to the experience. I think I'll wait until I buy that and play the game before I go a second time. Then it'll be even better. And I liked it the first time!

I understand the complaints, but to me, they sound like someone experiencing something that's completely different from what they're used to and rejecting it because of that. Possibly like someone who tastes Indian food for the first time, hates it, then you meet them a couple of years later and they can't get enough of it. OK, better analogy - like the resistance that talkies encountered when they were introduced over silent movies. I'm not saying the franchise/universe idea is the way to go for everything (really, it wouldn't work for 99.9% of the stuff out there), but I think that it is something different, and one has to appreciate what they are trying to do.

mojokittenMay 21, 2003 at 1:23PM

Amen to you, RB! As a would-be screenwriter with one on a big guys desk now, world building is an exceptionally challenging exercise. I admire the Wachowskis for being able to construct a multiverse with rules that I feel are working well for them. Just because we feel they've been broken doesn't mean we knew all the rules... yet... if ever. I can't wait until November. Until then, I'll bide my time rewatching what I thought was an excellent film experience!

DaveMay 21, 2003 at 2:17PM

During the Freeway scenes, there is a quick shot of the interior of a police car with the radio handset laying on the seat. If you listen closely you hear someone over the radio say "1 Adam 12"....I thought it was a hilarious reference to that old TV show. Refutes the opinion that the Ws took the film too seriously.

AndyMay 21, 2003 at 2:41PM

This has been said many times, but I'll say it again -- why should someone have to watch a bunch of animated films plus play a game plus rewatch a bad movie in order to "get" the bad movie?

They just provide more back-story. Here's an example:

The kid whos always hanging off of Neo is the main subject of one of the Animatrix shorts. He's a young hackeresque skater who goes through much the same process that Neo does: dissatisfaction with the world, late night chat sessions where he learns the truth (except this time it's Neo doing the talking, not Morpheus).

He's pegged as a "free mind" by agents, who pursue him. At the climax of the short, he commits suicide, ostensibly, jumping off the top of a building. The next thing you know, he's on the operating table of a Zion ship, being looked over by Neo and Trinity. But unlike Neo's case from the first Matrix, the kid was not "awakened" by the ship's crew. He spontaneously woke himself by believing that the world inside the Matrix was not real, and killing himself there. Somehow, the Zion ship, which was monitoring him, found his awakened body, and rescued him, but they marvel that he was able to wake himself. They've previously thought this impossible.

This is why Neo tells him, in Reloaded, "I didn't save you, you saved yourself."

So what?

Wellll....

At the beginning of Reloaded, Morpheus emphasizes that the prophecy of the One is not to be ignored, offering the fact that since Neo came around, "we have freed more minds in 6 months than in 6 years"

And at the end of Reloaded, we get that long conversation with the Architect, where he expains that there is a systemic problem in the Matrix, of which the One is the sum, the epitome. Some people reject the program, and if they go unchecked, they can present a threat to the system.

I think the fact that people are beginning to spontaenously free themselves from the Matrix supports the fact that things are reaching a critical mass, and that they do have a choice whether to stay or go. Enough people have rejected or are rejecting the system, that the machines have to do something about it. Which leads to the entire plot of Reloaded - the machine army, the maniuplation of Neo and Zion, etc. The fact that this kid chose to just leave suggests that everyone else is subconsciously choosing to stay, which is a basic premise of how the Matrix is supported, and offers the key to how it might be destroyed.

So there you go. You don't HAVE to see the kid's back story to understand the film, but it lends some support to the events you see in Reloaded. If you want to get more out of the story, and enjoy some cool animation besides, see the Animatrix. If you're too disgusted with cross-marketing to bother, then don't!

DaveMay 21, 2003 at 2:59PM

Something I haven't read yet. What's the significance of the gift of the earpiece that Agent Smith sends to Neo at the very beginning of the movie (other than, it's just to emphasize the fact that Smith has been set free)?? Will it come into play later??

corporatemofoMay 21, 2003 at 3:09PM

A philosophical perspective here.

A.I.May 21, 2003 at 3:12PM

The Matrix Reconsidered - click HERE

emilyMay 21, 2003 at 3:23PM

i liked it. :-) warning: critical theory ramblings ahead....re: the "rave" scene upping the sex quotient of the film -- i'm fascinated by the sexual imagery in TMR, and i can see a trend developing across the trilogy. the first film was full of images of birth or rebirth, most obviously when Neo awakens in his goo-pod and is flushed out and rescued by the Nebuchadnezzar (just love typing that...Nebuchadnezzar!). the story revolved around Neo's being "born" into a new consciousness, etc. TMR moves on to images of sexuality and especially orgasm, and its dual meaning as "the little death." the film opens with Neo precognizing Trinity's death, a scene that flashes again as she "dies" (i.e. comes) in his arms during the "rave" sequence. then at then very end, Neo saves her life by literally reaching inside her -- to me, a much more sexual image than a big wet kiss would have been. sex and death as the end (as in the "purpose" and as in the "ending") of life is a common theme, and there are all kinds of interesting references sprinkled throuhg the film...look at the Architect, he looks just like Signmund Freud, for pete's sake! :P there is also my favorite pun, the "death by chocolate scene," where we are led (or at least i was led) to believe the Merovingian was going to poison that woman with the chocolate dessert, but instead gives her a glowing green Matrix-code orgasm from across the room...i was sitting there thinking, "The MPAA folks must not get this, or it would be rated NC-17!" just kidding...

rebeccaMay 21, 2003 at 3:43PM

1) I find it heartbreaking that they compromised the aesthetic of the first movie in exchange for sponsorship dollars. The first film was atmospheric and dark: Cypher drives a verdigris 1965 Lincoln Towncar with suicide doors. The second movie, by contrast, offers us the Cadillac Escalade. Sigh.

2) And what do we get for those dollars? Over-the-top fighting that pushes the limits of the technology. I completely agree, Jason K., that they would have been better advised to stay well within those boundaries. The first movie never strayed from effects that had been used for ages in the Hong Kong action film circuit. Let Michael Bay and James Cameron test the beta versions.

3) The geek-boy wish fulfillment is a fucking tragedy. Cave orgy, Persephone begging Neo to make out with her, the orgasm cake... After the first Matrix I had high hopes that the series would continue to write for an adult audience, not an adolescent male one. Sigh.

TheoMay 21, 2003 at 4:01PM

A note about car sponsorship: Cypher et al drove in a classic Lincoln because they're free; all the cars in chase scene are cars driven/owned by those still asleep. From analog phones to vintage cars, those freed from the matrix use an older technology when they reenter, whereas those still plugged in use the latest--because they're deluded consumers who need the latest, newest, shiniest to fill their lives with meaning in a meaningless world.

Persophone's kiss will have greater resonance in Revolutions, as will, I wager, tribal dance scene.

It's astounding that many people on this thread are approaching Reloaded with such myopia regarding their presuppositions and expectations.

Sigh indeed.

Spoon BoyMay 21, 2003 at 6:15PM

Any person who doesn't recognize The Matrix as the single most profound piece of fiction ever conceived simply doesn't understand it.

SteveMay 21, 2003 at 6:17PM

Is the feeling toward the sex/tribal dance a cultural thing ? My wife and I, plus a friend of us, are french. We watched Reloaded with a group of american collegues. And the result is disturbing : 100% of the americans hated that scene. We three french absolutely *loved* it and we think it's an amazingly powerful and necessary scene.

Which led us to think about cultural differences and perceptions. It's not a secret that americans (and brits) are *lot* more prudes and puritans than us. And then I wonder if that cultural difference make, subconsciously, americans hate that "organic" and "primal" scene.

Just wonder. Maybe the results of my observations are pure randomness...

Spoon BoyMay 21, 2003 at 6:23PM

It's important to understand that the orgy scene was much more profound than it looked on the surface. It was illustrating to us just how far Artificial Intelligence has come in this story. You do realize that there is no spoon, no Zion, and perhaps no Neo, yes? It's all a program. The WHOLE THING is A.I.

The orgy scene was software getting off on itself.

SteveMay 21, 2003 at 8:23PM

The orgy scene was software getting off on itself.

That's one of the best theory, but I think it's far from being a given thruth. How do you know that the spoon is not real ? We may think so, but it's still not a 100% evidence.

It may only be a message sent to someone in real-life (communication between Matrix / Reality is easy) to deliver a straight spoon, symbol known to be recognized by Neo as from the Oracle ...

BrianMay 21, 2003 at 8:31PM

Spoon Boy says:
Any person who doesn't recognize The Matrix as the single most profound piece of fiction ever conceived simply doesn't understand it.

I am utterly blinded by the sheer simplistic brilliance of that argument. May I suggest this thread be closed? Clearly, there's nothing left to say after that.

parapesaMay 22, 2003 at 10:38AM

Alright, I'm new to all of this but here goes, and bare with me!
I argued for hours on end with a friend who thinks that zion is a matrix within a matrix. I don't think so, but i'm not really sure and here's why: The Matrix is based on a book called Simulacra and Simulation where Jean Baudllirad [author] says that there are 4 stages to the image:
1 the image is the reflection of a profound reality
2 the image masks and denatures a profound reality
3 the image masks THE ABSCENCE of a profound reality
the matrix right? wrong! and here's why i'm confused:
the forth stage of the image is that the image has no relation to any reality whatsoever: it is its own pure simulacrum
so what i'm getting at is that zion isn't a matrix within a matrix, we don't have choices, fate and religion don't really exist. We simply are. Am i making any sense?
But there's this naggin alert going off in my head that agrees with all the above theeories on Bane/Smith and the "smith" viurs that Neo now has, coz he did say that he felt like he was dying, like that last time when he did, but he came back [unless i got the scene confused!] So, since smith tells him that their lives are now very linked, it'd make sense, ironically, that smith is the one that gives neo the way to figure out getting out of the matrix. blah blah blah
I'll shut up now, but i'll admit, i'm quite confused as to which of these two possibilties is going to be the right one

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 11:13AM

First of all, The Matrix is not *based* on Simulacra and Simulation. S&S is merely one of its numerous influences.

Check out some of my thoughts on the subject here.

Thoughts/rebuttals expected and welcome. I'm particularly interested in hearing what you think would be a fitting end to this story.

Personally, I suspect the bombshell of our story is that there are *no* humans @ all in any of the movies. What we're going to learn is that Neo, Morpheus, Zion, and so on, are all part of the "entire race of machines" spawned by A.I., as Morpheus himself explains in the first movie. As for the ending, I think we may be going in the direction of a loop, in which the title of "Revolutions" will begin to make more sense than we ever imagined. "Revolution", as in "full circle".

Prediction: Final scene of Matrix Revolutions. Neo asleep @ his droid, as we met him in 1999. On the screen:

Wake up Neo...

FADE TO BLACK

parapesaMay 22, 2003 at 11:56AM

alright fine... let's say this whole 360 degrees thing is right, then, since you obviously pay a lot of attention to numbering in the film then.... 314 seconds should mean somehting to you. To me it means that the 314 seconds Neo has to get into the room implies that beyond that time, the cycle begins again, but afer that time... the cycle is broke. 314=3.14, the number for pi, and we know what pi is don't we.

pMay 22, 2003 at 12:02PM

but then again, this is the 6th time neo makes it to the architect.

AndyMay 22, 2003 at 12:09PM

Absolute full-circle plots have been overdone to death. Not clever. Not interesting. I guarantee you that the W's will avoid that cliche. I think they will also avoid the Matrix-within-a-Matrix-within-a-Matrix onion skin cliche, which as other point out was done in Existenz, originally a box-office competitor of the Matrix.

Now that we know it's possible for AI programs to inhabit human bodies, there are all kinds of possibilities open. Maybe Morpheus is a program in a human body: "He went to see the Oracle and everything changed."

There will be revelations in the 3rd film, no doubt. But I'm guessing they will be more along the lines of unexpected character and plot twists, and less along the lines of "Doooood! Everyone's an AI!"

Mr. NosuchMay 22, 2003 at 12:21PM

"Remember, there is no Spoon Boy."

Anyway, so either Zion and the rest of the "real world" is a simulation or it's not.

Reasons to believe it's a sim:

1. Neo has mojo in the "real world" now.
2. The "humans as batteries" is implausible from a thermodynamic point of view, so something else has to be going on.
3. Recursion and reflection seem to be major themes.

Me thinks it's all about the nature of what is computable and what is not. If the machines run on digital computers (and not quantum ones,) perhaps they have certain limitations. Thus, they hook up a giant wetware grid to supplement their processing ability. That would also explain why they use people and not cows (assuming, again that the "power source" explanation is a ruse.) in the Matrix.

So Zion and Neo are really just part of the "error correction" protocol used to keep the whole thing working smoothly. But, now the machines are confronted with an error in error correction protocol.

Perhaps Zion is a "Development/QA" box, and the Matrix the "Production" box. The Source is the Machine's version control software.

Reasons to think Zion is NOT a sim:

1. It would suck if it were a sim, dramatically. A dream within a dream is a cheap plot cop out.

2. The Architech gives the impression that Zion is seperate from the Matrix. (But seeing as the Programs love to jerk the Meat around, this could be more manipulation, like the Oracle did.)

Can anyone give more reasons why I can stop worrying this whole thing is a giant set of virtual nested boxes?

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 12:29PM

Andy says:

"Absolute full-circle plots have been overdone to death. Not clever. Not interesting."

A full-circle (revolution) plot is no less clever than the overdone "unexpected character and plot twist" you seem to crave. It's also less common, and far from uninteresting.

I suppose you find the looped masterpieces of Bach and Escher unclever and uninteresting, particularly the way they dance with the infinite and blow thinking minds away in the process. But hey, not everything can't be as good as "The Core", right Andy?

Tank to Morpeus:

"Ten hours straight. He's a MACHINE."

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 12:29PM

Andy says:

"Absolute full-circle plots have been overdone to death. Not clever. Not interesting."

A full-circle (revolution) plot is no less clever than the overdone "unexpected character and plot twist" you seem to crave. It's also less common, and far from uninteresting.

I suppose you find the looped masterpieces of Bach and Escher unclever and uninteresting, particularly the way they dance with the infinite and blow thinking minds away in the process. But hey, not everything can't be as good as "The Core", right Andy?

Tank to Morpheus:

"Ten hours straight. He's a MACHINE."

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 12:34PM

Stop for a moment and review this. The answers are there, @ the Source. :)

parapesaMay 22, 2003 at 12:43PM

excuse the idiot sitting infront of this monitor.... but i don't geddit! your point i mean? i've red this a kagillion times, that's why my friend and i are arguing.... you're not helping!!!
grrrr.... why six months why!!!!! i'm more inclined to agree with Andy... besides, not only will it be a sell out, but it'd make the matrix a Halloween type movie... sequals and sequals and sequals... and pure turd I think the W's are a lot smarter than that

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 12:52PM

For a visual, most movies and their associated sequels can be thought of as two-dimensional squares, sitting next to each other in sequence, from left to right. The first movie is on the left, the second movie on the right, and so on.

If the original Matrix was a square, then Reloaded is not a square along side it. Instead, it is a larger square encompassing it. This is not The Matrix 2. It's more like The Matrix Squared. We're going exponential here, which appropriately enough is precisely how the binary system is constructed.

As for what I thought of Reloaded as a sequel? All I can say is The Matrix is the best prequel ever made.

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 1:08PM

parpesa says,

"...i'm more inclined to agree with Andy... besides, not only will it be a sell out, but it'd make the matrix a Halloween type movie... sequals and sequals and sequals... and pure turd I think the W's are a lot smarter than that..."

You actually disagree with Andy then. If the Revolutions installment does indeed take us back full circle, then what we have here is a self-contained infinite piece of fiction with no beginning and no end, in which case no further sequels are possible. The only place to go after Revolutions would be back to the first installment of the trilogy, 1999's The Matrix. There could be, and would be, no room for a Matrix 4.

Not that the Halloween movies weren't good though. ;)

RenoMay 22, 2003 at 1:40PM

I think someone mentioned this earlier and I'm quite attracted to the idea now. Two matrices, for the vast majority of mankind, and another for those who refuse to accept the first Matrix. I'm now quite tempted to believe that Neo is only a program, created to prevent the people in the second Matrix from seeing past it.

They have a real sense of purpose and danger in the second Matrix, something they missed in the first Matrix, hence its effectiveness in making them believe its the real world.

Neo is said to be the 6th incarnation of 'The One', but perhaps the Architect is lying to him? It is absolutely essential that Neo believes he is human, if he is to lead everyone in the 'Real World' to their freedom from the Machines slavery.

The Machines are well aware of the fact that those perceptive enough to escape the first Matrix will not be fooled by a second Matrix for very long unless they are kept focused on one goal: the destruction of the Machines. This does not seem very hopeful, but they are fed 'The Prophecy', and the eventual arrival of the program known to them as a human called 'The One'.

Neo is granted a lot of power by his programmer, to give everyone in the 'Real World' some hope, for without hope, there is a risk everyone will again reject this second Matrix. This means in the first Matrix, he kicks ass, but in the second, he doesn't quite realise he can achieve similar effects, until Reloaded, where he stops the Sentinels with a burst of EMP (if that is what it was - though it wasn't that at all by my theory, he was simply manipulating code).

Any power Neo has is irrelevant, since once Neo has 'fulfilled the prophecy', 'Zion' and its inhabitants have nothing left to hope for, and the Machines will send their clean up team for them all, killing them to make space for the next round of people whose needs cannot be met by the first Matrix.

Once Zion has been destroyed, presumably Neo is told exactly what he is, then stomped, so he can return for deletion at the source - exile is improbable for 'The One' without anyone to fight for.

The Machines have hereby created a perfect system, segregating the populace into two groups with different needs. One is permanent, one is on a cycle, either way the electricity keeps coming, and all the Machines have to do is take their garbage out now and again.

All just my interpretation of course :)

AndyMay 22, 2003 at 2:04PM

Spoon Boy: unexpected character and plot twists have been done to death, eh? That's an interesting comment. I guess there's no reason to tell or read anything ever again.

My main premise here is that the one thing we can count on is that the W's are clever and original. And since the ending you propose is a Hollywood cliche, they will by definition avoid it.

Is your repetition of the same posting meant to be part of your argument for the infinite loop plot? Anyway, this is all conjecture. It's foolish to think we know for sure how it will end. So let's keep the conversation and ideas flowing.

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 2:18PM

Ah, the loop-connection to the repeated posting tailored for the detail-oriented. You noticed! Nice job. :)

>>
foolish to think we know for sure how it will end.

Indeed. All we can do is speculate and have fun with it. But on that note, you've gotta admit that any "guarantee" proposed by any of us would be out of line, right?

spenMay 22, 2003 at 2:49PM

A message to all.

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 3:06PM

Call me overly analytical, but I'm still trying to find the special meaning behind 197 here.

spenMay 22, 2003 at 3:10PM

a few unconnected thoughts:

yes, using the humans to power the machines, while perpetually feeding them with themselves doesn't make thermodynamic sense. is this really not happening? or maybe it's just a movie..

let's not assume that everything the architect says is true. the oracle told neo that he wasn't the one.

assuming that the sequels' titles are more than alliteration, when did the matrix get reloaded? reloaded as they go back in to the matrix again? or that neo's "choice" of the door was "an illusion created by the ones in power"(maurivignian) and reloaded the matrix as a whole then? neo did say something felt different.

i wonder why stopping the sentinels caused neo to go in to a coma.

maybe zion wasn't destroyed, as in the trailer for revolutions, we see those machines that guard the gates of zion in what looks like zion.

i don't think the trilogy will end in a loop, and neo is probably not a program. i say this cause i read an interview with keanu reeves about the series and what he did reveal was "it sounds goofy, but it's really all about love."

chelldawgzMay 22, 2003 at 3:37PM

(Somewhat of a spoiler.....yea its a spoiler) For those who dont want to know who that survivor is at the end of this movie.......please......dont....read.....this........u ready?..Its agent smith. remember in neo's dream when agent smith chased down those 2 guys and copied himself into one of them. well when the phone rang and he picked it up. One of his copys got free and into that body of that man. Thats why the guy tryed to stab neo earlier in the movie. That was agent smith in zion, in that body. crazy huh. That I understood. Theres jus one thing in this movie that i still cant comprehend. The whole 6 times thing. You know the fact that neo has visted the arcitect 6 times. I mean i guess everybody is some what stumped on that plot revleation. In revolutions they'll prolly explain it alot more along with neo's pivitol role in the salvation of the human race. Both are definitly tied in together

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 3:52PM

chelldawgz says:

Theres jus one thing in this movie that i still cant comprehend. The whole 6 times thing. You know the fact that neo has visted the arcitect 6 times.

Six times yes, but not necessarily in a chronological sense. Think dimensional. Free your mind. Software, or logic, does not exist in time as we know it. It just *is*.

spen says:

let's not assume that everything the architect says is true. the oracle told neo that he wasn't the one.

Father knows best. Listen to Dad. It's always the mom that blows things out of proportion.

I wonder why stopping the sentinels caused neo to go in to a coma.

For the same reason he fell to the ground from the building in the first movie: He was subject to the laws imposed upon him by the environment in which he was placed, and he hadn't fully developed the necessary realization that he was above these rules.

Besides, you'd probably go into a coma too if a hostile Squiddy came straight @ your head going 200 mph.

parapesaMay 22, 2003 at 4:49PM

alright i got another conspirecy theory: neo is that tiny percentage, that fluke in the system. what if the power that neo now has in the real world.... it's not god-like power... yeah, what if that power was given him genetically? we all know, from matrix 1 and Renaissance 2 that humans are made by the machines... no battery mom and dad. so there is a programme that makes humans and it is actually this programme that was made by the Oracle, and here in lies Neo's "real" world powers. that tiny percentage: its not part of the matrix batteryprogramme, but part of the programme that is instilled in our genetic make-up that makes us and our conciousness. So "choice" is added into the mixture at "birth" as is that Neo factor.... hence he is that much more powerful. in the real world. too far fetched? possibly huh?
I have another question: Spoon Boy says:
Call me overly analytical, but I'm still trying to find the special meaning behind 197 here. where'd that number come from?
And yet another question: [i'm on a role today!] if as i truly believe, Smith can affect the real world [since I don't think Zion is another Matrix] why can't Neo? Morpheos said it clearly, it's all in the mind. Neo finally believes he has the power. He's not seeing in binary, like inside the matrix, but he can feel them. They exist differently to him here than do the agents and the like inside the matrix!
I'll shut up now, but i'd like your thoughts on my thoughts :)

spenMay 22, 2003 at 5:07PM

see my first post for the 197 reference. apologies for the lack of taste, but it's so poignant!

i'm starting to lean with you to that zion is really zion. even though it probably is another matrix. one of the reasons also being that he can't see the lines of code. which is another random thought... it's not binary! what is that, is the matrix running on quantum computers perhaps?

and what made it "different" according to neo?

my biggest question that noone has any idea about-

WHY DOES BANE CUT HIS HAND BEFORE HE TRIES TO KILL NEO???

spenMay 22, 2003 at 5:07PM

see my first post for the 197 reference. apologies for the lack of taste, but it's so poignant!

i'm starting to lean with you to that zion is really zion. even though it probably is another matrix. one of the reasons also being that he can't see the lines of code. which is another random thought... it's not binary! what is that, is the matrix running on quantum computers perhaps?

and what made it "different" according to neo?

my biggest question that noone has any idea about-

WHY DOES BANE CUT HIS HAND BEFORE HE TRIES TO KILL NEO???

spenMay 22, 2003 at 5:08PM

see my first post for the 197 reference. apologies for the lack of taste, but it's so poignant!

i'm starting to lean with you to that zion is really zion. even though it probably is another matrix. one of the reasons also being that he can't see the lines of code. which is another random thought... it's not binary! what is that, is the matrix running on quantum computers perhaps?

and what made it "different" according to neo?

my biggest question that noone has any idea about-

WHY DOES BANE CUT HIS HAND BEFORE HE TRIES TO KILL NEO???

parapesaMay 22, 2003 at 5:38PM

noone's arguing, and call me retarded as much as you want, but at least i'm exercise that muscle that smith says neo aint using :P
i thought is was another funky number connection in the matrix.... boo boo spen!! and about that binary.... excuse me i no speaki in dat language! last time i took basic was in 8th grade. I meant to say code. so he doesn't see in code in that last scene... he only feels them Squiddies.

parapesaMay 22, 2003 at 5:45PM

as for bane cuttin himself, i think that he's lost his sanity coz now his genetic code has been infected with the virus that is Smith. smith's programme code has integrated in bane's human code from the matrix encounter into zion, the real world. that's also why he wants to kill neo, coz so does smith. Incedentily, i think there are a lot of parallels between Smith and Neo. they're going through the same changes but from different sides. real vs matrix. Smith has become the virus he claimed we were in matrix one!
there! that seem like a good one for ya?! or am i being retarded hehehehe

Spoon BoyMay 22, 2003 at 5:58PM

spen said, in loopy fashion:

WHY DOES BANE CUT HIS HAND BEFORE HE TRIES TO KILL NEO???

I think he was just getting to know the ropes a bit, becoming familiar with the new body in which he has manifested his intellectual existence.

Good thing he didn't hack into Trinity. She'd probably never leave the house.

Erik GMay 22, 2003 at 7:57PM

I downloaded a copy of the movie (after seeing it in the theater):

2 items I wanted to note on:

- There were NOT 23 board members on the counsil. In two different "wide" shots of the board I counted a total of 11 members (6 male, 4 female, 1 unknown).

- Bain, during his apparent attempt to kill neo with the knife. Did slice his hand, but it did not heal (I read this either on this thread, or another, but I wanted to state it none-the-less). One interesting thing Bain said to neo in that sceen was "WE'LL see you." Definately implying he is apart of Agent Smith.

I am not completely on board with the Matrix within a Matrix theory (or M&M theory) I hear people suggesting. It's seems like too much work for the machines to "double-trap" people. It make sense to me that the machines would knowingly let people escape the Matrix and flee to Zion (where they would help other non-believers escape as well), while providing minimal resistance (sentinals and agents) so that it's not the easiest thing to do. Then when Zion reaches a certain size (size = strength) and/or the One comes forth, the machines destroy Zion. But they don't completely destroy it, because they need a place for people to escape to (because if those people were left in the Matrix it would become corupt). If Zion was a program, why threaten it with Sentinals drilling down to destroy it, it it can just be rebooted?

I liked the movie a lot because it has me thinking and reading long *ss threads like this one (and /.) just to see what others thought.

BrianMay 22, 2003 at 8:29PM

Some thoughts before I leave for my 2nd viewing of TMR tonight:

* I think "Revolutions" will end with Bobby Ewing being startled and waking up in the shower, at which point we learn the Matrices were all a dream.

* I was trying to think of a Judas/Jesus connection for Bane cutting his hand, but Bane isn't really a Judas -- Cypher was. Any other thoughts on assassins (sp?) who are well known for whom this blood-letting might be a ritual?

* (There Is No) Spoon Boy did an admirable job on this page, which shares some trivia withthis one. Questions: Neo is #6, so why would he be in 101 (binary 5)? Shouldn't he be in 110? A more plausible explanation might be that "Room 101 was the place in George Orwell's book 1984 where people were sent to be tortured and would end up believing something that wasn't true."

* smith's programme code has integrated in bane's human code from the matrix encounter into zion But the human's aren't code, only the "digital representations" of themselves, or whatever Morpheus called it in M1, are code. So Smith couldn't have integrated himself with anything but another digital representation in the sim-within-a-sim, right? Er, uh, right? :-)

Off to the show lads. Back later with more blinkerd, philistine pig-ignorance.

Korte40May 22, 2003 at 8:57PM

I disagree with your review. It was like watching a beautiful women wear the latest Gucci fashions. I loved it and think it was worth the $10. New York, Spring 2003

ChrisMay 23, 2003 at 2:18AM

here's a quick almost totaly unfounded theory:

what if instead of fighting a straight out war with the machines, humanity simply created a virtual world where the machines supposedly enslave humanity and live happily ever after, then trap them in it somehow?

wazzupMay 23, 2003 at 2:49AM

wassup , ok here's the story. NEo, is half machine since Smith and him sort of 'exhanged powers'. The sentinels started coming, but he could FEEL them. WHy? Because he is part machine.
At this point the machine didn't know what ot do. Attack the human? Attack the machine? So, they all fell; THAT includes NEO.

wassupMay 23, 2003 at 2:52AM

Oh and those who complained about the C.G, includint the reviewer, YOU KNOW NOTHING about CINEMA. That's the best than can be done at this day and age, and if you put the movei down for that (it's almost perfect), then I'm afraid your expectaions are too high.
STFU about whinging about the SFX.

PeteMay 23, 2003 at 8:13AM

I think the reason for Bane/Smith cutting his hand before going up to Neo was that he was going to try to infect Neo in the real world. He did it in the Matrix, though it didn't turn Neo into a Smith clone, but now Smith is outside of the Matrix with a real body, could he be trying to pass on the virus in a physical manner by exchanging blood?

Overall, disappointed with the film, only the last 30 minutes were good - so much could have been edited out.

11220May 23, 2003 at 10:19AM

We thought it was a pleasantly distacting way to spend a couple of hours. End of.

AndyMay 23, 2003 at 1:24PM

It's hard to say that the current state of CGI effects is poor. It's obviously pretty good. But unfortunately, I felt the film makers reached beyond that limit at times, and it showed. I enjoyed the simpler fight scenes much more than the burly brawl, because they were convincing, and you could actually follow the elegance of movement.

This might seem like a small point, but with Neo and the Smiths all dressed in black and swarming around each other at high speed, I found it difficult to see/appreciate the choreography. The foyer scene worked better, imo. Several distinctive foes and an interesting physical space (with a white background) "containing" the fight. Easier to see what was going on.

I was impressed with some of the "impossible choreography" in the BB scene, but on 2nd and 3rd viewing, you can't help but notice something kind of dumb: Neo is fighting about a hundred Smiths, and only about 25 of them are ever close enough to him to do anything. The others are just hanging back, waiting for a chance to move it. Even if you have the technology to realize it, there isn't much to *do* with a 1-on-100 fight. Again, simple is better. I could watch that first 360-degree Trinity kick a million times. Burly Brawl? Once was enough.

The BB was ambitious, technically. Suitably ambitious to take it well beyond the first movie, which is what everyone expected. Unfortunately, technology hasn't advanced along the same curve.

Spoon BoyMay 23, 2003 at 2:35PM

How amusing it is that a scene which exists entirely within a virtual world is criticized for looking unrealistic.

I must wonder if such critics realize that Bruce Willis was dead @ the end of The Sixth Sense.

parapesaMay 23, 2003 at 3:25PM

wwaaaaahhahahahahahaha good one!!!!

BrianMay 23, 2003 at 4:08PM

Minor points picked up in my 2nd viewing of TMR:

* The "connection between me and you" that Smith speaks of before the burly brawl is Smith's "disobedience." Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I missed that the first time around. Smith says he knew the rules, knew what he was supposed to do (i.e., deletion), but he didn't do it.

* More "101" -- when Morpheus, Trinity and Neo get off the elevator on their way to see the Merovingian, the sign over the clock behind them reads "101." The freeway is Interstate 101.

* It seemed to me there was a lot more in this film about programs executing their purpose, and allusions to the previous iterations of the Matrix. The Keymaker says "I know, I've been waiting for you" (i.e., "yeah, this ain't my first time through this") and says things like "we are here to do what we're here to do" or "fulfill our purpose" or what have you.

* Speaking of allusions to previous iterations, the Merovingian makes statements before and after Neo fights the Merovingian's minions, along the lines of "the other ones showed more respect" and "I've survived your kind before, and I'll survive you," or words to that effect.

* Persephone refers to the two bodyguards as programs from a "much earlier version of the Matrix."

I know I'll probably catch hell for saying this, but I don't think Monica Belucci is all that, at least in TMR. Of course, Carrie-Ann Moss is sort of a caricature of herself in this flick, imho.

stacieMay 23, 2003 at 4:46PM

I'm not sure if anyone else will read this far down, but...

Enter the Matrix for Gamecube/Ps2/Xbox has an extra hour of film footage centered around Niobe and Ghost. Just as some people mention they appriciated the movie more after seeing Animatrix, I felt I got more of the complete story after playing through the game.

The game is ok. I would suggest you do what I did, which is run through the game on easy. It'll still be fun enough to play with the bullet time, but some of the level design is bad/annoying and will cause you to go through some of the levels far more than you'd want to.

The game story/cinematics/film stuff is great! The bullet time is neat. Levels, bland and annoying.

But, for your Matrix-files out there, It's defintely worth a rental. (And it's fun to play Niobe)

I can only hope the extra footage ends up on a dvd sometime.

Spoon BoyMay 23, 2003 at 6:58PM

Brian says,

freeway is Interstate 101.

Yes, this was brought to my attention the other day. It all seems to reinforce the significance of the number 5.

Brian, did you pay particular attention to the camera work during the Architect scene? We had the "real Neo" (or 6th Neo, if you will) in the room, and there were five other "parallel" (or perhaps "previous") Neos on the wall monitors behind him. What's notable is that, during the conversation w/ the Architect, all 6 Neos would respond to an Architect's statement w/ slight variations. However, if you noticed, the "real Neo" would be swapped with a Neo in one of the five monitors (i.e. as the 6 Neos would respond to an Architect's statement, the camera would zoom into one of the five monitors, taking the audience with it, and then THAT Neo would then become the Neo in the room. The camera took the audience into another instance of Neo, and now we weren't necessarily with our 6th Neo anymore. It all happened pretty quickly.) Since we were essentially jumping from one instance of Neo to another; we were therefore NOT watching one *common* "real Neo" throughout the duration of the Architect scene. So we must ask, if we walked into the room with the 6th Neo, who did we leave with?

Again... that #5 begins to seem more and more relevant...

AndyMay 23, 2003 at 7:00PM

The whole idea of fate is interesting when discussed by programs and humans. Computer programs have a limited range of what they can do.

In the presence of certain preconditions, they are required to give a certain response. That's the nature of computers and software. Put a program in the same conditions, and it will do the same thing every time.

This isn't to say that they're infallible. Computers obviously break down. But I believe that usually happens when they encounter circumstances not forseen by the programmer. A kind of input they don't understand, a conflict with another program, etc. But programs don't just get tired and quit. They don't wake up on the wrong side of the bed.

Computer programs are generally linear, and we can assume that the Oracle, Architect, Keymaker, and Merovingian will play their parts in perfect straight lines, never varying from their nature, their character, their "purpose" (unless the Matrix is based on a kind of non-linear computer software we've never seen, which would be sort of pointless for us, as an audience).

So, to a program like the Oracle, everything is entirely predictible. You know the program, you know the circumstances, ergo, you know what it will do. Suddenly, it doesn't sound all that spiritual for the Keymaker to say "we do only what we're meant to do." It's literally true. He doesn't feel wrong for running. It's in his nature.

It's possible that the Oracle is actually outside time somehow, but I believe she's actually more like the Merovingian, a master of analyzing cause and effect. Perhaps she just has very, very good senses. She uses this ability as sleight-of-hand, convincing the Zion humans that she's really precogniscient, and that they are trapped within some kind of "fate." But it's merely a way of influencing their behavior.

After all, now that we know the characters are only acting out a prepared scenario, it seems more explainable that the Oracle has such keen knowledge of what's happening, and what will happen. I think that before this trilogy is over, the idea of predestination will be debunked.

Humans, unlike machines, behave unpredictably. The architect goes on and on about how "imperfect" we are. He says that our unpredictability presents problems "assidulously avoided yet not unexpected." In other words, they've learned to expect the unexpected and manage it. They've created the Zion option for escaping humans, and find that it sucks in the escapees pretty effectively. By the time any of them figure out what's really going on, a machine army is at the gates.

But even this "measure of control" cannot predict all. And so it looks like the humans have 24 hours to come up with something unexpected. A brief window of opportunity in this tightly-locked-down causality loop that's been created and carefully maintained.

And the W's have to cram it into 2 hours. Sheez.

Spoon BoyMay 23, 2003 at 7:08PM

Consider the Freeway 101. Now, this was just asked to me by a fellow brainstormer:

Was there any significance to Morpheus saying "Never get on the freeway. The freeway is death."?

More than just an inside LA joke?

*Tangent Alert*: Note that 101 is 5 and 110 is 6 in binary notation. Not that it's relevant, but here in LA the 110 and the 101 meet @ the floor level in the heart of downtown.

BrianMay 23, 2003 at 9:45PM

Spoon Boy said:
there were five other "parallel" (or perhaps "previous") Neos on the wall monitors behind him.

Hmmm.. I hadn't considered the idea that those were previous Neos, but that might make "sense" (if anything does in the Matrix). I was thinking of those as "if/thens" ... "if Neo flips the bird then the Architect has response X, etc., and the "zoom out" was Neo settling/choosing his "if." But the idea that Neo is the same Neo every time ... Hmmmm.....

Andy said:
uddenly, it doesn't sound all that spiritual for the Keymaker to say "we do only what we're meant to do." It's literally true. He doesn't feel wrong for running. It's in his nature.

Yeah, exactly! These are programs simply executing their code, as it were. The big wrench in the works is human nature, which is unpredictable. But every time The One returns to the source, they get a fresh batch of QA to improve the next version of the Matrix.

Oh, and I found another product placement: Heineken. There's a Heineken sign when Neo is walking down the street on his way to meet Seraph and the Oracle.

Here's another twist. I was talking with the buddies I saw the movie with last night, and had noticed the Architect said that "failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the Matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race." So, my contention was that Zion and the Matrix had to be physically separate since the Architect was talking about them as distintcly different places. (Which, as it happens, had already been mentioned here) Buddy of mine posits that Zion isn't physically separate: the Sentinels are hacking their way through software defenses -- encryption or what have you -- to get to a protected system that runs in tandem with the Matrix.

Eh, eh? What do you think?

ChrisMay 23, 2003 at 10:42PM

I like the idea that the monitors in the architects room showed all of neo's possible reactions, especialy as right at the end it showed all of the possibly reactions to be walking out the same door.

it was a neat touch i thought.

PaulMay 23, 2003 at 11:06PM

My The Matrix Reloaded summary: Crap story but worth watching.

LarryMay 23, 2003 at 11:30PM

I believe Bane/Smith was cutting himself because he gained a certain pleasure out of it. Out of seeing a human bleed and even greater satisfaction in experiencing the pain that it inflicts on him. Some people enjoy pain as we well know and Smith would have never had the ability to feel this before. He hates humans above all and this is of great pleasure to him.

Spoon BoyMay 23, 2003 at 11:50PM

Brian says

>>
Yeah, exactly! These are programs simply executing their code, as it were. The big wrench in the works is human nature, which is unpredictable.


Much has been discussed this past week about The Matrix's story taking an "onion skin" direction, suggesting a "Matrix within a Matrix" concept. I've always been a fan of this "nested reality" concept in storytelling, but it's not really that uncommon, and actually quite popular in recent years. "The Sixth Sense" and "The Others" did this with death, "The Usual Suspects" did this with deceit, "A Beautiful Mind" and "Fight Club" did this with schizophrenia, and about 99% of The Twilight Zones explored all of the above and more. All are outstanding pieces of work, paying homage to the Twist Almighty, but @ the end of the day, @ the core, they're all really using the same concept of "one perceived reality proven to be on top of, parallel to, or nested in another true reality".

The Matrix Revolutions could certainly take us down that road, where in November we confirm that the "real world" that contains Zion is but another simulation on top of the first, and all our heroes then, say, emerge from their "real pods" in their "real world" from the "real Matrix" that was all this time housing the "fake real world and its Matrix". However, I think (or hope) that it's more profound than that. @ least, it could be. With this onion skin structure of a story, any proposed conclusion of what the "real world" is cannot be taken seriously, and would open up the possibilities of an open-ended story with no definite conclusion, leading to a slew of unnecessary sequels. a la T3.

What I think we could be looking @ here with The Matrix story is a total absence of the human element. I see no reason why real humans are necessary for this story to be complete. In fact, I find it to be the most delicious possibilty. This theory seems plausible for a few reasons. I continue to mentally review Morpheus's quote from the first movie, where he described Artificial Intelligence as:

"A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines."

Keyword: "singular".

A singular consciousness, or program, that spawned an entire race of machines, or programs. All subsequent programs spawned are thus part of A.I., and are therefore all part of a larger whole.

It's difficult for the human to visualize this concept, and we've tried to do it before. For instance, consider the concept of the Trinity in Judeo Christian theory (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). The Trinity, while theoretically being three distinctively different entities, is in fact one singular consciousness.

I'm thinking that everybody and everything in the story of The Matrix is a program that was spawned by A.I., and is thus A.I. What a chilling conclusion it would be to realize that what we've been watching all this time is Artificial Intelligence discovering itself. The Architect is Neo is the Oracle is Trinity is Zion is the Noodles is Morpheus is the Neb is a Squiddie is a Spoon.

But then again, you heard the kid...

LarryMay 24, 2003 at 12:03AM

I have a feeling that most of these post seem to agree in the layer theory of the matrix and Zion. I believe that perhaps the real enlightening thing may be that Zion and the Matrix are not the same, but neither is truly real. The message may be like what Morpheus said in the first movie "What is real, define real, is it what you can taste smell touch" and so on. In other words, there isn't a true reality! And perhaps the closer you get to understanding this and truly knowing it, the more you can control any reality. Remember Neo's strong point is that he isn't a machine and that because of that he can do things in the Matrix that no other program can approach. Hence being human and then truly knowing the reality of the matrix and what it really is allows him to do things no one else can. He is not bound by code. He has shed his instincts and senses and replaced them with an ability to just sense and see things for (in this case) the program and machine that is the matrix If this is a sort of gift of his, then it stands to reason that he would have this ability in the real world too (assuming its not as real as we would think), but if only he could be enlighten to its true form. I also notice that his new found real world abilities started after his encounter with the Architect. And the Oracle made comment to him seeing the bright lite in his dreams. And he entered this bright lite and meet the Architect. Then afterwards, when back in the real world, could feel the machines. I believe anything you experience in the matrix can and will be impressed upon your human psyche. It must, seeing as you can learn tons of information such as Kung Foo though the use of a construct. And this would explain how Smith was able to infect the digital Bane and then when leaving the Matrix was still impressed upon Banes psyche. But if Neo is carrying some code or something was impressed upon his psyche which allowed him to feel the sentinels, there would still have to be more then a hand wave with this scenario seeing as even with code, how would he via no physical connection to the machines influence them. Unless he can do it wireless I cant see how. In addition, if this was another Matrix then why destroy it via sentinels. Why not just shut it down. They can do this to the matrix, but losing there energy source wouldn’t be so good. But seeing as the souls of Zion are finished, it just doesn’t make much sense to worry about this whole charade to just destroy them.

BrianMay 24, 2003 at 12:09AM

And now for something completely different (or maybe not): 'Matrix' hailed as best treatise on God ever made

what we've been watching all this time is Artificial Intelligence discovering itself.

Or, improving itself through the ongoing iterations. But if that's the case, then there is no "human element" to be unpredictable, that the Matrix needs to improve against through each iteration of itself. So what is The One bringing back each time?

Larry said:
I believe Bane/Smith was cutting himself because he gained a certain pleasure out of it.

Yeah, I like that explanation a lot, that Smith enjoys inflicting pain on a human, even if "he" is the human. But, again, that would mean Zion isn't another sim, but the real world after all.

Ouch. My head hurts.

Mike LeungMay 24, 2003 at 12:11AM

The Rave Scene Everyone Complains About:

It seems consistant with Grail mythology. In the Grail myth, individuality depends on maintaining two needs: the appetites of the body, and the appetites of the soul. Where one appetite is sacrificed, the other becomes corrupted.

In the first Matrix, Morpheus is ineffective in his struggle against the Matrix because he was starving his crew. He adopts the role of the emasculated Grail King. Cypher betrays Morpheus for the pleasures the Matrix offers him. He adopts the role of the pagan challenger for the Grail. Neo almost loses his life in the final battle, until he is healed by Trinity's kiss.

To me, the rave orgy made as much sense as the combat scenes. All criticisms of that part of the story make as much sense as criticisms that the fighting could have been cut down -- in terms of story consistency, at least.

LarryMay 24, 2003 at 12:15AM

I also wanted to add that perhaps it wasn’t his contact with the Architect seeing as he did get a kiss prior to his exit too. Maybe there was more to it. And seeing as Persephone said "he used to be a lot like you once" she passed something on to Neo to perhaps aid him. And he now is seeing things in the real world different. Makes you wonder if the Merovingian might have been one of the previous Neos. And is now the digital equivalent of him from the past! He has been there from the beginning so it makes me wonder.

MikeMay 24, 2003 at 12:34AM

Significance of 5:

This might be a stretch, but the movie was loaded with comic book references: Neo adopting the Superman pose of the cover of Action Comics #1, his fighting with the 3-prong daggers of Frank Miller's Elektra, Morpheus holding a samurai sword to the side like Ogami in Lone Wolf and Cub -- these guys read comic books, and the good ones.

Just mentioning a theme of "5" immediately brings to mind, comic book-wise at least, to Moore and Lloyd's "V for Vendetta," about a mad bomber terrorist who speaks in rhyme relentlessly making use of the letter V and number 5.

Even if not intended, if mentioned to the W brothers, I have no doubt they would know the reference.

Spoon BoyMay 24, 2003 at 1:51AM

Brian says,

improving itself through the ongoing iterations.

Indeed. Revolutions, as in "ongoing (re)iterations".

But if that's the case, then there is no "human element" to be unpredictable, that the Matrix needs to improve against through each iteration of itself. So what is The One bringing back each time?

I know. It's abstract. It's only human to visualize these iterations on a linear timeline. That's how we think. However, I suspect we're dealing with something that lies outside of time, in a self-referencing loop of sorts. Artificial Intelligence. Like logic, or math, it exists without requiring time. Consider the following equation:

2+2=4

Now, that equation is true, and will always be true, but doesn't need time in order to be true. It exists outside of time. It only requires time to be calculated physically.

Mike says,

Just mentioning a theme of "5" immediately brings to mind, comic book-wise at least, to Moore and Lloyd's "V for Vendetta," about a mad bomber terrorist who speaks in rhyme relentlessly making use of the letter V and number 5. Even if not intended, if mentioned to the W brothers, I have no doubt they would know the reference.

Ah, 5. A cool number. Geekier Tool fans may have noticed the strong theme of 5 in the 2001 album, "Lateralus". I'm not familiar with Moore and Lloyd's Vendetta, but I am quite familiar with Rand and Robyn Miller's "Myst" and it's sequel "Riven". Riven came out on Halloween 1997. Ever play it? I'll bet the W's did. As the riddle in Riven unfolds, it becomes clear that the whole puzzle is also based on 5 (five islands, five shapes, five animals, five sounds, five colors, etc.) I can remember getting a chill up my spine as, after I solved the game, I looked @ the Riven packaging and noticed the emphasized "V", as in riVen. I imagine both the Millers and the W's are familiar with Vendetta. What year was that?

And btw, I think we all can agree that the W's are big on dropping clues everywhere, yes? I was walking my dog, thinking about 5, and this came to me:

(Reloaded billboard):

FREE YOUR MIND
5.15

Are you aware of the announced opening date for Revolutions? November 5th. Imagine the billboard in mid-October:

GET IT YET?
11.5

ChrisMay 24, 2003 at 3:09AM

as interesting as all these "oh and they where really all just AI" endings would be, i cant help but think what a gut-wrenching horrific anti-climax it would be.

I'd like to the think the war against the machines is a real one and that humans will triumph, it just makes a better ending if u ask me.

Neo - The OneMay 24, 2003 at 5:12AM

all this '5' business is just paranoid, i could pull out a million of thses sort of coincedences from other movies...

HighVSWRMay 24, 2003 at 7:02AM

Just saw tho movie last night (May 23). I liked it. I feel that sequels never live up and I went to the movie understanding this. The Matrixs' first installment was new, exciting, and mind blowing. It is kind of hard to be blown away twice, it is just time to settle in and see what road is being paved for the next mind blower and just follow the story line.... which, by the convo here is still not sorted out.
The hard critics of this sequel remind me of the Star Wars critics... after enduring a muppet show of a bar scene, Wookies and Ewoks in the first three installments the were hyper critical of some great computer work in the next two installments.

Now,
The Bane/Smith thing. At the point Neo got the bloody handshake my mind said "virus" and I started watching for an opportunity for the "virus" to enter. It seem to have come with the fight with the 'vegian fight when Neo blocked a sword with his palm and bled. The only plays Neo bleeds in the whole movie (that I noted). The whole Agent Smith thing was a great sub-plot that seems to be shaping the next installment.

parapesaMay 24, 2003 at 7:40AM

If I remember correctly, no-one's said anything about Seraph and how he looks really different to Neo right before he enters combat with him. Neo asks him something along the lines of "what are you?" if my mind serves me correctly. Seraph kinda "guards" the Oracle right? and in my "Who's Who in Mytology" at home, Seraphim [plural] are described as "an order of angels, their function being that of attendants at the throne of God" Since the Oracle made this succesful version of the matrix, that would make her "God" and not the Architect. But my architect friend, who can't stand that I'm a graphic designer and thinks that the whole world revolves around architecture, keeps telling me, as a rebuttle, that God is the first Architect.
Alright, admittedly, I have no idea what I'm trying to say, but I'm just adding some info.
Though.... I still can't really figure out WHY Seraph's first appearance in the film was like a Buddhist Statue and all shiney and golden. And why does Neo ask him what he is.

TrinityMay 24, 2003 at 11:44AM

Now that he's done it once, Neo won't stop reaching into my friggin' body and massaging ... "body parts," if you catch my drift. It was nice to have him save my life and all, but this is really getting tiresome.

MikeMay 24, 2003 at 12:32PM

Neo - The One says:
all this '5' business is just paranoid, i could pull out a million of thses sort of coincedences from other movies...

As paranoid as withholding your name from a post where you call people paranoid?

Hey man, it was just an idea.

Mr. NosuchMay 24, 2003 at 1:30PM

When wondering why 5 shows up so much, yet the architect said it's the sixth anomoly, remember that programs probably count from 0. The first anomoly would be 0.

So this one would be 101 in binary.

DianeMay 24, 2003 at 1:32PM

Jacob-
The point of rebuilding Zion is so that the machines can continue destroying it. If Neo had gone through the other door essentially he would have been giving up the fight against the machines and accepting that the humans could never defeat them. However, Neo's new powers suggest that there my be another way to beat the machines although it is likely that he will encounter a lot of trouble from this Baine dude. What I had trouble with was the Oracle. Was she trying to betray Neo or was her whole talk about Neo understanding his choice in reference to saving Trinity? I get the feeling that she is on Neo's side because I thought that was her voice in the Revolutions trailer.

Spoon BoyMay 24, 2003 at 1:44PM

Neo - The One says:
all this '5' business is just paranoid, i could pull out a million of thses sort of coincedences from other movies...

You'd be paranoid too if everybody was out to get you.

Matt MMay 24, 2003 at 2:52PM

Makes you wonder if the Merovingian might have been one of the previous Neos.

Huh, I like that idea. Certainly ties in with the real world origins of her name. I can't believe I just read this whole thread. Anyway, here's a theory no one has suggested:

This movie is called "reloaded"...suppose that's what happened at the end already and we don't know it.....when Neo goes thru the door, *bam*, the matrix is reloaded as a Zion looking construct. This would explain his sudden new powers in the "real world". This is a better twist than saying that Zion has been a matrix in the matrix the whole time - I'm saying that Zion has been real the whole time, except at the very end we are seeing the new Matrix, which looks like Zion.

That's cool about the 101 / 5 references, significance that after 5 tries the anomoly brings down the system? Also, the 314 seconds reference....wasn't it room 314 Neo was trying to get to at the end of Matrix 1, right before he got killed? The whole 3.14 pi/cyclical/revolutions reference is neat.

One more thing - at the end, did Neo choose the door he has always chosen, or did he chose a new door? The script suggests that he chose a new door, b/c the Architect says he is different - he cares about 1 person specifically instead of just the population as a whole, as the previous anomalies did - which would suggest he chooses Trinity this time, and chose the human race the previous times. However, all of the Neo's (are those previous neo's, or other possible if/then situations?) on the monitors behind him turn and face toward the same door....suggesting that he chose the same old door as always, no change coming up in Revolutions, just repeat. Wondering...

ChrisMay 24, 2003 at 2:59PM

those monitors in the architects room show all the possible things neo could do, all of his possible choices. At the end his only possible choice is to walk back out the door into the matrix and save trinity.

parapesaMay 24, 2003 at 3:22PM

doesn't "reload" mean to load the same thing over again?
incedentily, the historical figure: Nebuchadnazzar was afflicted with some peculiar mental aberration as a punishment for his pride and vanity, probably the form of madness known as lycanthropy [i.e., "the change of a man into a wolf" Werewolves, ghost… all older programmes!].
but then again... it's only a theory. but it would fit into the whole programmes thing

Spoon BoyMay 24, 2003 at 3:25PM

Matt M says,

This movie is called "reloaded"...suppose that's what happened at the end already and we don't know it.....when Neo goes thru the door, *bam*, the matrix is reloaded as a Zion looking construct

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in order to "reload" the Matrix, he had to choose Door 1, which led to the source and would give him the opportunity to salvage 23 pod bodies in order to repopulate Zion from scratch. He instead chose Door 2, hence not reloading anything. Yet.

Chris says,

>>
At the end his only possible choice is to walk back out the door into the matrix and save trinity


I agree. Neo actually has no choice in the matter, for he is a program. No matter what he thinks, he can only choose Door 2; it's impossible for him to choosed Door 1. As the Oracle indicates, programs will do what they need to do to have purpose, else face deletion. Since Neo's purpose is to be "The One to free Zion", he simply cannot choose Door 1, as that would be a total contradiction to his purpose. He also "needs" Trinity, so Trinity is also part of his "purpose". While Door 1 is clearly the logical choice in light of the proposed alternatives, Neo is blinded by his purpose and the humanlike emotions that are associated with it, made possible only by the element of choice.

One analogy that I've used for this is that of a conventional calculator: Even if the calculator had what it perceives as a "choice", it could never come up with any other answer than "4" when asked to calculate "2+2". This calculator may *think* it's *choosing* 4 as its answer, when in fact the answer has already been made by virtue of the way it's been programmed.

Question: What was Neo *supposed* to do with the removable media given to him by the Oracle (via the messenger), and whatever happened to it?

I'm guessing he would've needed it to "reload" the Matrix if he had chosen Door 1 (which he didn't). I suppose it's still in his pocket?

Mr. Nosuch says:
When wondering why 5 shows up so much, yet the architect said it's the sixth anomoly, remember that programs probably count from 0. The first anomoly would be 0.

Aha, of course. Nice catch!

Matt MMay 24, 2003 at 3:39PM

Spoon boy says,
Neo actually has no choice in the matter, for he is a program.

I'm going to have to thoroughly disagree here. I don't think Neo is a program. Yes, the Architect says Neo was "designed" to make certain choices....but he also goes on to explain that they have been learning about the human psyche, and that they are able to predict human reactions ("denial is the most predictable of human responses" or whatever). So, by "designed" they mean, they've figured out how to give a human a choice (b/c they have to or the matrix doesn't work), but to push the human in the right ways to make him make the choice they want. Also, the architect tells Neo he is "irrecoverably human" or something like that, which is why he can't understand all the Why's. Also, it would be boring and stupid if Neo were just a program the whole time - so based on how cool the Matrix movies are, I don't think it's a possibility as much as I don't think Zion being an onion layered matrix is a possibility. The one thing I ask of you as your captain is to have faith in the W's.

parapesa says:
doesn't "reload" mean to load the same thing over again?

Means to load anything again. Windows 98 kept crashing so I decided to reload my computer with Windows 2000. Who's with me? Can I get some?

King ColliwogMay 24, 2003 at 4:03PM

lol... Whoever said that the scene where they let morpheus' ship enter zion was too white and clean to be in Zion well... Watch the movie again... Just a second before you see some people plugged in the matrix... The white room is just a program...

The guy at the end of the film is Smith into the body of another human I thought it was obvious and cant even believe that some people didn't get it... Just watch the begining smith copy himself in the body of this guy and goes into the "real world" using the telephone....

About the tv screens that we see in the architect rooms... They could represent 2 things... First all of his possible choices... And they could also represent all the reaction that those "previous" neo had... At some time when the architect says "there were 5 other matrix bla bla bla" you hear them saying 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 and neo says 5... and theres one who is laughing (he would be the first one) but I'm not sure if it's actually those TVs that are speaking or just the real neo... I must watch it once again...

The "complicated" philospophy is actually the main interrest in this movie... I may understand that some of you guys didn't want to think hard, but this part of the trilogy is only bringing questions... No answers... So indeed, it's complicated... I catched almost everything the first time I saw it (was a bit harder since I first saw it in english and my "first" language is french) and understood the rest when I watched it for the second time...

The story start to be great after something like... 30-50 minuts... the begining was really pissing me off.. .WIth the rave/sex scene was really awfull... I hated it so much... But I guess it was there to show how "human" is Zion... With sex party feelings and stuff like that...

The special effects were good... Really good... theres like 1 or 2 scene that I didn't liked (both in the burly brawl) cuz neos cloth really looked "computer" modified... But Hey.... that was cool anyway...

Welll I could continue this for a long time but I dont have much time... see ya

King ColliwogMay 24, 2003 at 4:08PM

Oh I forgot... Someone says the machine should kill every human that is unplugged... I hope that you understand that they actually wanted to let them go... Theres a robot that come and "scan" neos face... and then let him go... Watch the architect scene and you'll understand that they want to let them go

DianeMay 24, 2003 at 4:27PM

I read through all these comments bc I'm addicted to the Matrix now. The way I saw it the previous five Ones were not Neos. Neo says "No one knows" which would mean for him to be the previous Ones he would have had to know what the Architech told him and ignored it. Additionally, the Architech says he is different from the others bc he experienced human emotions much more deeply by falling in love with Trinity. The ones before Neo didn't believe that they were strong enough to defeat the machines so they just gave in and chose the other door. The Matrix made itself a love story in the first movie so I don't understand why so many people were upset by the amount of time spent with the trance/love scene. This very primal scene made me want to free my mind and go to Zion, which btw I refuse to believe is a matrix-within-a-matrix. So cheesy for a movie which is trying to answer the question of reality..."Uh let's just make everything not real and then we'll be covered." Please give this movie a little more credit. It took four years to come out. I could have come up with the idea of a matrix-within-a-matrix in two minutes. I felt that Neo's conversation with the council member was one of the most important dialogues of the entire movie. It showed that the machines and the humans need each other (ie technology is essential) but like the later obviously matrix influenced Minority Report, Reloaded shows that too much technology results in unwanted controls. An optimist would hope for machine-human compromise in the end but I really want Zion to destroy the Matrix. But then what happens to all the people still plugged in? If your mind's not free then are u screwed? Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, et al have to find a way to make everyone realize that the Matrix is not real. I believe that will be the true revolution and not the destruction of 250,000 sentinels. It seems quite feasible that the humans could defeat the sentinels if they hadn't faced the betrayal of Baine. Anyway, totally hot for the conclusion and we don't have to wait a whole year for it. (That's a shot to LOTR, which I love anyway)

Spoon BoyMay 24, 2003 at 7:35PM

Matt says,

Also, the architect tells Neo he is "irrecoverably human"

Not so. He says, "Although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain revocably human."

In other words, although a choice has been given to you (as part of the Oracle's "solution" for the unconvincing perfect original Matrix), you're humanlike emotions are blinding you from the truly logical choice of Door 1.

"Revocably human" means that they can take that element of choice away from him @ any time. i.e. "Although you have a choice, we can take it away @ our discretion." etc.

Spoon BoyMay 24, 2003 at 7:50PM

Ken Colliwog says,

my "first" language is french

Could you be a pal and translate the Merovingian's cursing rant to English for us?

The guy at the end of the film is Smith into the body of another human

What makes you so convinced Bain is human? Or anybody for that matter? C'mon people!

theres like 1 or 2 scene that I didn't liked (both in the burly brawl) cuz neos cloth really looked "computer" modified

Shame, shame, shame. We wouldn't want a fake world to look, uh, "fake" or anything. ;)

Matt says,

Windows 98 kept crashing so I decided to reload my computer with Windows 2000

Trading one blue pill for another. Don't you ever learn dude? :) lol...

mattMay 24, 2003 at 10:35PM

s'only a film, u'll all b dead, as will i sometime in the future so quit slaggin it off or sayin its stupid. just watch the fekin films and get on with it.
i would say "unless u can do a better job of it" but then i thought 'whats the feking point in slaggin it off even if u can do a beta job? do u say ur kidz school drawin's are shit just coz u can do better? ....thought not.'

MikeMay 24, 2003 at 11:04PM

Spoon Boy says:
Are you aware of the announced opening date for Revolutions? November 5th. Imagine the billboard in mid-October:

GET IT YET?
11.5

Holy shit, Revolutions is opening 05 November? Isn't that Guy Fawkes day? I was educated in the US, so we weren't raised to know things like that.

MikeMay 24, 2003 at 11:43PM

Holy shit, that must be why Moore made V for Vendetta centered on the number 5! Guy Fawkes day! Maybe that's why 5 is so prominent in Reloaded...

MikeMay 24, 2003 at 11:48PM

Neo - The One says:
all this '5' business is just paranoid, i could pull out a million of thses sort of coincedences from other movies...

Hey Neo, you writing all this down? The fate of the human race may count on you knowing stuff like this in the next movie, dude...

BrianMay 25, 2003 at 1:36AM

Mr. Nosuch says:
When wondering why 5 shows up so much, yet the architect said it's the sixth anomoly, remember that programs probably count from 0. The first anomoly would be 0. So this one would be 101 in binary.

Sweeeeet! Way to go, Mr. Nosuch! So, we have:
The One #1 (to us base 10 humans) = 000 = Binary 0
The One #2 = 001 = Binary 1
The One #3 = 010 = Binary 2
The One #4 = 011 = Binary 3
The One #5 = 100 = Binary 4
The One #6 = 101 = Binary 5 = Neo

So, Neo can be the 6th, and the 101 references still fit. Cool!!

Spoon Boy says:
Not so. He says, "Although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain revocably human."

I have to disagree, as "revocably" isn't a word. The Architect tells Neo he remains "irrevocably human."

Spoon BoyMay 25, 2003 at 3:26AM

Brian says,

I have to disagree, as "revocably" isn't a word. The Architect tells Neo he remains "irrevocably human."

Webster's lists "revocably" as a legitimate English word, meaning "capable of being revoked".

Perhaps the question isn't if revocably is a word or not, but if the Architect indeed said "revocably" as opposed to "irrevocably". If he indeed say "irrevocably", then this transcription, taken from an audio recording and not mine, is incorrect. Can anybody confirm this? Did the architect say "revocably human" or "irrevocably human"? The world needs to know.

The One #1 (to us base 10 humans) = 000 = Binary 0
The One #2 = 001 = Binary 1
The One #3 = 010 = Binary 2
The One #4 = 011 = Binary 3
The One #5 = 100 = Binary 4
The One #6 = 101 = Binary 5 = Neo

So, Neo can be the 6th, and the 101 references still fit. Cool!!

Way cool. I actually had jotted this down on paper earlier for posting, but now I don't have to. Thx Brian!

Mike says,

Revolutions is opening 05 November? Isn't that Guy Fawkes day?

Yes it is! It's the anniversary of the Gunpowder Plot, a conspiracy to blow up the English Parliament and King James I in 1605. Any people knowledgeable on this unusual holiday? If so, your takes on Fawkes/Matrix parallels are in order. I am not a Fawkes scholar, and would very much appreciate any insight.

Is it just me, or is this movie getting better every day?

BWGMay 25, 2003 at 5:47AM

The Merovingian's first string of curses roughly translates as:

Name of God of whore of bloody hell of filth of jerks of fucked up the ass of your mother

According to BabelFish.

parapesaMay 25, 2003 at 6:54AM

It took four years to come out.
I believe it took 5 years and not 4
I must admit though, I'm not catching all this 5 business and I really wouldn't get all the refereances to binary in the film if it wasn't for reading all of this. So, I'm going to watch it again tonite keepin all of this in mind.
I have another theory: [don't i always?!] What if which ever door neo would have taken would have reloaded the matrix anyway? I mean it'd make sence coz the machines have to cover all their bases right? So pretend to give us a choice but we come back full circle and we're still in a programme. We're still all plugged in [even Zion] But then that last scene were Neo stops the Squiddies, he made a realisation [this too is a programme] so he used his mind like Morpheus told him and stopped the Squiddies. At that realisation he fell into a coma coz it scared the crap out of him OR what it did was actually wake him in his little pink battery-acid-making pod in the real, real world. [the kid that tells neo he saved him, didn't he fall out of the 1st programme all by his lonesome? and more ppl have been wakin up to the matrix in the last 6 months vs the last 6 years?] so now neo is really awake! but his brain can't handle it. The same goes with Smith/Bane. The human that is Bane has truely woken up and Smith must be like "what the...?" so now smith [if this is possible coz i knopw jack bout computer programming] is in the real, real world via Bane, and he too is going wako, hence the coma is applicable to both human and programme [Bane/Smith]
So Zion too is a construct [choice] but Neo now knows it. So in the end of the trailer for Revolutions when we see Smith[s] and Neo in this long dark corridor, that could be the real, unconstructed world. This way everyone can be happy! W's didn't sell out and make a 13th Floor type movie, nor do they not solve "the human mind and the power of love" and further more, they get to say Zion is a construct, but look, Neo has found the real unconstructed world after all, and he and Smith/Bane are both awake in it. Maybe its a fairytale or just my mind trying to rationalise all of this because i can't seem to agre on either theory, and this one take a bit of both.
feedback anyone?

UnbelieverMay 25, 2003 at 9:23AM

AWESOME!!! I thing that is the only word that can describe matrix reloaded. I had greater expectations before i went to see it and these were rewarded. You are gong to ask WHY was it so good?

POSITIVE ASPECTS:
1) It is revealed that agents can enter the cave world that leads to zion through a phone, in their program form. Also Neo stops 2 sentinels with his hands in the end of the movie, leading to the conclusion that Zion is another program inside a program or a second matrix inside the matrix.Otherwise how can Neo use his powers to bend reality in the caves?

2)Deepness. Matrix reloaded takes the Matrix scenario and expands it to a new level, showing a hidden society, fears, loves, conspiracies.

3) The architect concept. The architect, a supreme being, for others a God for others the lead programmer. He fools people into believing to a prophecy. He makes everybody believe they have a choice when they clearly dont.

4)Is it all a game? Agent Smith wonders how Neo could be resurrected after his death, but if its only a game played by the architect then it is a very good one.

5) Good battle scenes and adaptive enemies give Neo a new fright. The scenes with the car chase are spectacular

NEGATIVE ASPECTS:
Whoever hasn't seen MATRIX or is just can't be bothered to think about all the hidden meanings should not watch the movie. Go watch something simple like X-MEN2 (which was just ok)

KimMay 25, 2003 at 10:47AM

I thought the movie was awsome and the effects were not that bad. They were somewhat obvious but nonetheless the storyline was very good. Oh and in the end, the person next to Neo is the agent... remember when the agent took that guys form and just then the phone rang and he got transported to the real world? He tried to kill Neo but failed. They guy with the knife?

MikeMay 25, 2003 at 12:27PM

Hey, if Agent Smith is running around in the real world, does this mean he will be able to hijack robots too? As both Machine and Man, doesn't that make him some kind of machine-Christ?

I mean, I'm not the only person who left the first movie thinking that harnessing the species as an energy source is the most useful you can make people, am I? I mean, how do we know the machines aren't the good guys? How much would it take to conclude that love = damnation?

Also, the squid machines destroying Zion -- those are powered by people, aren't they? It's like some kind of cosmic "stop hitting yourself" torture.

matt lefevreMay 25, 2003 at 1:10PM

remember when in the 1st matrix film, morpheus tells neo of the person that freed the first of "us".
where is this first person?
is he dead?
i suppose he was "the one/anomoly" in the 5th matrix?
why does morpheus ask neo what the "architect" looks like in
reloaded?

ChrisMay 25, 2003 at 1:43PM

Things that I did not see posted, but I don't understand:

1. If this is the 6th time that the machines have drilled to Zion -- as the Architect notes, they are quite efficient at it -- who is filling in the hole each time? It seems a bit odd that there would be 5 other tunnels to the center of the earth that nobody seems to have noticed.

2. Trinity goes into the Matrix to save Neo because of a series of events that begin in the "real" world, i.e., the bomb that disables the ship and those linked to the Matrix through that ship. How exactly can the machines know they'll succeed in disabling the ship and forcing Trinity into the Matrix each iteration of the cycle?

3. Although I am not yet convinced on Matrix within Matrix, I do like the idea (posted above) that Door No. 2 led to an unreal Zion world. It seems a plausible explanation for Neo's new mojo, but for what reason?

BrianMay 25, 2003 at 5:40PM

Webster's lists "revocably" as a legitimate English word, meaning "capable of being revoked".

{Sigh.} Fine. Whatever. "Revocably" is a word. I hear people use it all the time, right? What I should have said was that "revocably" makes exactly zero sense in the context of the sentence: "...and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain revocably human...." So, again, it's "you remain "irrevocably" human. Considering one of the translations from audio of the Architext dialogue had "inexcerable" instead of "inexorable," I think it's conceivable that the transciption isn't 100% correct.

I actually had jotted this down on paper earlier for posting....

Yes, undoubtedly you beat us to it.

If this is the 6th time that the machines have drilled to Zion -- as the Architect notes...

I wonder if they find a different manner in which to destroy Zion each time? Remember in TM1, Smith was trying to get the codes to the Zion mainframe. Is it possible that there isn't a set way that Zion gets destroyed with each iteration? That is a good point, though.

parapesaMay 25, 2003 at 6:25PM

just came back from watching it again.
it irrevocably btw
someone said somethin about race playing a part in the movie, well the oracle is the only black person in the matrix, who belongs IN the matrix, while most everyone in zion is black. and what u look like in the matrix is what ur mind projects right?
I think the oracle is on the human's side in the snese that she wants us to co-exist. remeber her speech to neo? the architect on the other hand is trying to sabotage all of this. I think that the architect deals with the agents, personally, and he's trying to kill everyone off b4 they send neo to him, hence the agent on top of the truck trying to delete the key maker and other agents letting trinity go because their aim is to kill the key maker. plus, it's the oracle narrating the trailer for Revolutions! and she's tellin neo to fight Smith, who, as a i mentioned earlier, is quite parallel to neo.

parapesaMay 25, 2003 at 6:32PM

question: in the earlier half of the movie when trinity & neo are in the elevator and neo asks her how long they're goin to be in Zion for, then they kiss, and trinity open's her eyes.... after that, does anythin else happen in the elevator, or do we immediatly see morpheus at the comander's office. Coz it looked like something was censored. I mean me watchin that scene and have it immediatly cut to morpheus was kinda odd. did i miss anything?

parapesaMay 25, 2003 at 6:48PM

how in the world do the Squiddies know where Zion is? In 1 Smith never gets the code for Zion from Morpheus! 1 ended with no info given to the agents about the where abouts of Zion so how the heck do the squiddies know where it is in 2?!?
i know i ask a lot of questions!

Spoon BoyMay 25, 2003 at 7:09PM

revocably vs. irrevocably

I need to verify this next time I see it, unless somebody can do so first. In the meantime, while "revocably human" and "irrevocably human" indeed mean opposite things, I'm not sure either makes less sense than the other in the context of the Architect's statement.

If it's "revocably", then Architect is stating something to the effect of:

"Even though we may have altered your consciousness in order to make you *think* you have a choice, you really don't."

...while "irrevocably" would mean mean something more like:

"Even though we've altered your consciousness, we can't change the fact that you're human." (whatever that means)

I'd say "revocably" would make perfect sense here, as it seems to be referring the Oracle's solution of giving people an element of choice. And what it can give, it can certainly revoke. Why would that make zero sense?

On the ideas of 101 signifying the sixth in the sequence, the loop bringing the story full circle, and so on...

How cool would the final scene of Revolutions be as such:

Neo asleep @ his droid as we saw him in 1999. The familiar scene literally pulled from the first film and reused. On his computer screen:

Wake up Neo...yada yada...etc.

Knock knock Neo...

Neo walks to answer the door. Camera shot from the outside of his door shows his apartment number as 110, indicating we're now on the seventh revolution and will theoretically continue this sequel-less pattern indefinitely (111, 1000, 1001, 1010, etc.).

FADE TO BLACK

That would blow my mind to the back wall of the theater...

Spoon BoyMay 25, 2003 at 7:20PM

Here's another transcription of the Architect scene, using the phraseirrevocably human.

That does it. Now I need to go see it again. :)

Spoon BoyMay 25, 2003 at 7:27PM

BWG says:
The Merovingian's first string of curses roughly translates

lol. Sounded so much smoother in French. Once translated to English it's more like wiping your ass with rayon...

matt lefevreMay 25, 2003 at 8:46PM

hello, i just got back from watching the matrix reloaded at my local cinema for the 3rd time in ....4 days. the architect DOES say "irrevocably" and not "revocably" :o) ..... and for anyone who doesn't know..if and when you go to watch the matrix reloaded either again or for the 1st time.....stay in the cinema and watch the screen until all the credits have finished. there is a small clip of "the matrix revolutions" :o)

Spoon BoyMay 25, 2003 at 10:17PM

the architect DOES say "irrevocably" and not "revocably"

Thank you! Noted. Did you by any chance count the wall monitors that had the other Neos?

btw, all this talk of five (V, 101) and sixth (the sequential spot of 101), along with all the other little anti Micro$oft themes (blue pill, windows, etc.), reminded me of the Vi (pronounced "vee-eye") editor. Roman Numeral for 6. Vi and Emacs are the two most popular editors in the Linux world. Although you can find a version of Vi for almost any os platform, it does have its roots in the open-source culture.

ChrisMay 25, 2003 at 11:39PM

Thought from the girlfriend:

Very sexy rave scene. Trinity and Neo probably managed to get Trinity preggers...

Interesting idea. Even if Neo bites it in the Revolutions, maybe his kiddo will have the mojo to save humanity.

theJanMay 26, 2003 at 12:50AM

Here are my theories / philosophies on this incredible story:

Intelligence = a soul. The technology for AI, even though "artificial", has advanced so far that said intelligence has become essentially "real". Persephone stated that she and her husband were in love in the beginning. Isn't falling in love something that cannot be mere mechanics, but requires something much more profound? Even though they (and countless other "characters") are essentially "programs", they are actually real. A different life form, if you will.

Some of these "life forms" are more advanced (intelligent) than others. Advanced to the point where they have the ability to "reprogram" themselves to some degree (as humans do, changing and evolving via the choices we make.) I speak specifically here about the Merovingian and the Oracle (advanced), and characters such as the keymaker (less advanced, thus much more controlled by their programmed "purpose"). Also this reprogramming is evident in Agent Smith who has "somehow figured out how to copy himself", and was able to "choose" to disobey.

When the Merovingian, fleeing from Neo, said "I survived your predecessors, and I will survive you!," I saw a distinct look of fear in his eyes. As these beings are "real", deletion would be akin to murder. Having seen Neo's power, and knowing Neo is out to destroy the machine world, this man is deathly afraid of being permanently deleted. He is afraid of Neo, and would destroy him and all his kind as the enemy, because he is afraid of death.

The Oracle on the other hand, though also a "rouge program", sees things quite differently. Being an "intuitive program", she realizes the nature of all souls, human and machine alike. She acts as a sort of "divine mother / guide" (God's digital self-image perhaps?). She is indeed manipulating the humans, but not for selfish purposes. She manipulates as a teacher manipulates a student to help them evolve. Her hope is for harmony among all souls (which I believe was alluded to in her most recent convo w/Neo.) She sees the One, the architect and their inevitable meeting as means to this end. She helps each incarnation, in hopes that eventually one will make the right choices to bring about this evolution (by choosing the proper door? A choice based on the essence of God, the big L - Love, rather than fear). It's a game of chance that she's betting will eventually hit. She said to Neo "For what it's worth, you've made a believer outta me.", meaning she's got her hopes up, because this one just might succeed. He is better than his predecessors for two reasons. One, he is made stronger by the love of another (the power of love, strength in numbers), and two, he has been infused with the soul of the enemy (smith, a program- the machine), giving him insight and ability unprecedented. The Oracle is not afraid of death, and will help Neo "see the light" by telling "exactly what he 'needs' to hear" to bring about her ideal of harmony, rather than victory and defeat. She knows the latter will not work, that humans and machines are interdependent.

The Merovingian, as well as the Architect, don't approve of the Oracle. (Perhaps they are afraid of her? Perhaps she is much more powerful than we've seen?) They don't believe in harmony, they have much more selfish motives. What do the powerful want? More power. They want victory.

As for the monitors in the room of the Architect: I don't believe the images of the other Neos are his predecessors, but merely the Architect's predictions of his possible responses (they all say "bullshit!" to "You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed...", because denial is the most predictable). If these were images of the earlier Ones, they wouldn't look like Neo. They are each an anomaly, not a clone. Each would have different DNA.

One of Neo's choices given by the architect involves starting Zion over again, because the machines need Zion. It needs to exist for the .01% who reject the program, because they must be given the choice for the Matrix to work. Eventually the population and power of Zion grows to the point that they pose a potential threat, particularly with the statistically inevitable advent of an "anomaly" who could "manipulate the Matrix however he saw fit". They destroy the threat and maintain what they need to survive by throwing Zion back to its infancy.

The "rave" scene: As I saw it, I thought all they need is a golden calf and you could splice it right into the bible (where Moses comes down from the mountain with the ten commandments and gets really pissed off at the "rave" going on.)

Personally, I thought it was very cool. Sensual, artistic, and taking the whole thing to a deeper level. I saw it as a celebration of humanity, of joy and pleasure. Just letting go, dancing with abandon. That's cool with me. Don't know if I wanted to see Reeves and Moss doing the watusi, but I didn't really mind it. I believe it was essential to depict their relationship in realistic terms. Maybe the sex wasn't necessary to do this, but hey, sex sells and people want it. Alrighty then.

Now I have a theory on the machines. I believe they are not all on the same team. The "agents" are agents of the mainframe, the source, the powers-that-be. This "Source", is the benevolent "Big Brother" looking out for the so-called good of all machines and programs. When obsolete, they are to return to the Source for deletion, or "reintegration - renewal". Not everyvirtualbody agrees with the Source and it's totalitarian self. They buck the system. They run, they hide, they fight against it. The mass of electronimity (opposed to humanity??) has grown too large to be controlled by the Source. Therefore ones like the Merovingian, Smith and the Oracle, these rogue programs can exist free to hack away as they see fit, pursuing whatever purpose they have mustered the power to program for themselves. Some full of ambition, some content to merely fulfill their purpose.

Sorry, no "matrix within a matrix". That would be so incredibly lame as to be insulting. At the very least it would be inconsistent with the creative genius we've seen so far from the W brothers. Sure it would work, but there are so many better options.

My best guess is that Neo has power over the machines in the real world because the mind is a powerful thing. He knows, feels, believes, and hey it was worth a shot, because they were about to be zapped dead by the Squids. He followed instinct. His attunement to the machines is akin to the intuition (ie empathy) among humans. He shares the soul of the machine, he has an ethereal link to them via Smith. Squiddys are simple programs, easily overpowered. Neo would have a tougher time with a tougher adversary in the real world (such as Smith and similar infiltrations.) So perhaps people will get the chance to see Neo get the crap kicked outta him in a real fight next time. We shall see. I think he collapsed because he wasn't used to exerting this power (as in "Why do my eyes hurt?" "Because you've never used them before") As for Bain, I think he survived because he saw it coming, and hid. Also he's alive in the Matrix, and death in the real world would mean death in the Matrix right? Not so. Just like the kid, it wouldn't correlate because Smith is already "awake". To him, the real world is probably fake and the Matrix real.

I theorize that in the end, the Source will be defeated, Smith and the Merovingian deleted, the Oracle redeemed and all souls united in harmony. And the Architect shall see that it is good. Sounds so biblical doesn't it?

Just MHOs.

theJanMay 26, 2003 at 12:55AM

Hey, sorry my previous post was so long! Didn't realize how much I had to say, and this little comment box is so deceiving!

Shutting up now :-)

Spoon BoyMay 26, 2003 at 1:32AM

Cool thoughts, Jan. All thought provoking.

My best guess is that Neo has power over the machines in the real world because the mind is a powerful thing.

I see, you've tossed the nested Matrix idea. So you believe Neo's now actually in the "real physical world", and now has newfound physical powers over machines. How real is this world? If an object like a giant Squiddy were flying hundreds of mph, could it stop on a dime like that? That's one of the reasons I didn't think Zion was of a "real world", for it didn't obey the basic laws of physics in that situation. The Squid machine's momentum would've sent it crashing through the cave corridor, even after Neo "disabled" it. You'd have to accept that Neo had not only manipulative powers over the machines, but powers over the laws of physics. Not impossible in a scifi movie, I suppose. Superman, ET, Storm, and so on. I guess we need to decide what we accept out of the "real world" in this story; up until now we've never really needed to ask. Personally, I'm not so sure we've seen a "real world" yet, or if we ever will for that matter.

Do you have a take on the spoon gift? Was there a deeper message being sent to Neo from the orphan kid, or was it just a good luck charm? Remember, that little guy knows something...

theJanMay 26, 2003 at 3:03AM

Hey Spoon Boy,

About Squiddy, why do you say it was advancing at hundreds of MPH? I've heard others say this, but that's not what I saw. If they were going that fast our heros would have been nabbed (well, maybe not in a Hollywood chase). Given what they are chasing, why would they need to go that fast? It's not like they're flying through space, they're flying through the sewers and subway tunnels, right? (the old "ways and means systems") Plus, advancing that fast, there wouldn't be much opportunity to run from them as they'd be on top of you a moment after you first saw them coming! There wouldn't be any hot pursuit like we've seen on the screen. But you are right about the momentum thing. If they suddenly "died", they'd at least tumble forward a bit, rather than drop like a lead zeppelin. Now that I think about it, they do hover though. Didn't they stop first, then die, then fall?

The spoon thing I think ties in with Neo's new powers. The spoon kid and all the others at the Oracle's apartment were refered to as "the other potentials". Potential whats? Potential "Ones"? I think these were other recently "freed minds" consulting the Oracle just like he was (mostly young- freed before they get to a certain age). Thus, the "spoon kid" was in Zion, and wanted to remind Neo that there is no spoon. Not just in the Matrix, but in reality.

Think of it in an existential, spiritual kind of way. Didn't you think, when you first saw M1, that hey, maybe we ARE living in a Matrix!! Not a computerized one, but one like, created by God or something?? Like, everything we see and feel is just stuff interpreted by our brains. How do we know they're not lying to us, and that we really even exist in this world??

If you recall the spoon kid had a Zen quality to him (her?). I would think that this kid was a believer in other dimensions of consciousness. Thus, an enlightened being, knowing the illusion of the physical world, would be able to manipulate it as he sees fit, if he so chooses. Get it? I'm thinking that there's a whole existential, spiritual theme developing here (or perhaps it's my own imagination running amok). That outside the machine's Matrix, outside of virtual and physical realities, there lies spiritual reality. That it's ALL an illusion, and thus can be manipulated by the "awakened" or the "enlightened". As I was talking earlier, it all ties in with the concept of "souls" & "God", an "All-One" kind of thing. Perhaps a moral/spiritual message (from the Ws) about all the people of the world being of one spirit, regardless of our self-important divisiveness among nations and classes.

Essentially, I think that Neo can manipulate things in the physical world because he feels a connection to them, and he is starting to feel (realize? believe?) that there is no spoon, anywhere, except in the limitations of our own minds...

Hmh. Or maybe not.

You know, sometimes I have to tie a rope around my waist to keep myself from floating away altogether! :-D

Neo - The OneMay 26, 2003 at 7:22AM

could someone give some examples of this '101' conspiracy please?
I need to watch the film again :(

BrianMay 26, 2003 at 12:30PM

236 comments as I add mine ... Amazing.

I'm not convinced The Architect is talking about the Oracle. When Neo says, "The Oracle," The Architect's "Please" is almost dismissive ... in the sense of "as if" ... is it possible he was saying "Oh please, not a chance, now, back to what I was talking about" -- and he wasn't talking about the Oracle, but Persephone?

Also:

The way the Matrix Reloaded points out the multiple layers of control built into society is perhaps the most potent of the messages it carries. Its one thing to make people aware of the first layer of control. Its far more powerful to make them aware of the way that a built in "resistance" can be used to solidify the power structure. [LINK] via Doc Searls

mikeMay 26, 2003 at 1:47PM

"Didn't you think, when you first saw M1, that hey, maybe we ARE living in a Matrix!! Not a computerized one, but one like, created by God or something?? Like, everything we see and feel is just stuff interpreted by our brains."

Look for a copy of "An Anthropologist on Mars" by Oliver Sacks (the guy portrayed by Robin Williams in the film version of "Awakenings"). He writes about a car accident victim who consulted him. He was a senior painter who sufferd a stroke that destroyed two bean-sized areas of his brain, and became achromotopic color-blind -- absolute black and white vision.

One of Sacks's conclusions after studying the patient is that other than those areas of the brain destroyed in his patient, there was no reason to believe there was even such a thing as color. Of course, we see color -- light hits our eyes, and our brain constructs the colors (evolutionary-wise, color seems to benefit day vision over night vision) -- but other than that, there's no real evidence that color even exists.

As to the question of "everything we see and feel is just stuff interpreted by our brains..." Sacks refers to Goethe: optical illusion is optical truth.

Spoon BoyMay 26, 2003 at 2:11PM

Hi Jan,

About Squiddy, why do you say it was advancing at hundreds of MPH?

Just a number. Even if they were only traveling 25 mph, they wouldn't be able to stop on a dime like that @ Neo's will, especially if airborne. It was as if they ran into an invisible wall.

Now that I think about it, they do hover though. Didn't they stop first, then die, then fall?

Good q. I'd need to see it again. Anybody have a take on this? Did they stop dead in their tracks, as if running into an invisible force field by Neo? Or did they stop on their own accord first, then die?

The spoon kid and all the others at the Oracle's apartment were refered to as "the other potentials". Potential whats?

The Potentials were part of the .1% of the minds that didn't accept The Matrix as reality. Recall the 99.9% success rate of the Oracle's "solution" (i.e. give the mind a choice, and 99.9% of the time it'll be convinced that the virtual world in which it's placed is real.) This would equate to roughly 1 out of 1000 people being exceptionally "gifted". Similar to our own world.

Potential whats? I suppose potential escapees, if you will. I saw the term "potential" as sort of a metaphor for the "gifted" people here in reality.

Thus, the "spoon kid" was in Zion, and wanted to remind Neo that there is no spoon. Not just in the Matrix, but in reality.

True. But there was in fact much more substance contained in the line "There is no spoon." Since the spoon does not exist, the world which contains it must therefore not exist. This played a large part in Neo's realization of the Matrix's fakeness. Now, in Reloaded, that whole concept has carried over into this supposed "real world" that contains Zion. The gift of the spoon could be saying, "Hey dude, remember how I told you there was no spoon and therefore no world to contain it? Well, that applies here too. Wake up Neo."

Think of it in an existential, spiritual kind of way. Didn't you think, when you first saw M1, that hey, maybe we ARE living in a Matrix!! Not a computerized one, but one like, created by God or something?? Like, everything we see and feel is just stuff interpreted by our brains. How do we know they're not lying to us, and that we really even exist in this world??

Absolutely. The Matrix story is a microcosm of our own reality, which is one of the things that makes it so insane. :)

Essentially, I think that Neo can manipulate things in the physical world because he feels a connection to them, and he is starting to feel (realize? believe?) that there is no spoon, anywhere, except in the limitations of our own minds...

They could go that way and make many folks happy. Personally, I think the story is going to end up being much more of a metaphorical thing, not a story of some hero "freeing the world". I can't stop thinking about Morpheus's definition of Artificial Intelligence, and entertaining the idea that @ the end of the day, the whole thing is A.I. Think about the messages it would send. i.e. Are humans necessary for intelligence to exist? If a form of artificial intelligence can feel love, is that love any less real or important than if a human felt it? And so on. You really start tapping into some philosophical issues here.

This is the movie Spielberg could only dream of making...

theJanMay 26, 2003 at 2:44PM

>Brian says:
I'm not convinced The Architect is talking about the Oracle. When Neo says, "The Oracle," The Architect's "Please" is almost dismissive ... in the sense of "as if" ... is it possible he was saying "Oh please, not a chance, now, back to what I was talking about" -- and he wasn't talking about the Oracle, but Persephone?

This had not occurred to me. I think i am probably biased to charactars that I "like". Generally story tellers (movies, books, tv) will present characters in a way that indicates their roll in the story. For example, it was pretty much obvious that the members of the 2nd ship (whatever it was called) that went to find the Nebachudnezzar were expendable. It's apparent that Neo, Trinity, Morpheous, et al, are enduring "heros" playing a pivital roll and are to be portrayed in a positive light when it's all said and done. I got the same feeling of the Oracle (and her man and voice being featured in the trailer for M3 indicates their importance). This applies as well to the villians being portrayed negatively. Sometimes they will fool you and twist things around, but fans get pissed off at movie-makers who make villians out of characters they have become endeared to. It's generally not done because they want the fans to walk away feeling "satisfied", not dissapointed or irritated.

You're right though, when I went back and looked at the transcript, he was definately dismissive of the Oracle. Persephone definitely could play an important roll in M3, but her personna didn't strike me as one strong enough to be the "mother of the matrix" (not objective, too self-absorbed). Thing is, I can't think of who else it would be. I do think however, that the Architect is pretty neutral. Sure he wants to preserve the survival of the machine world, but its just a game to him, and he doesn't care squat who llives or dies, as long as he has a purpose.

Spoon BoyMay 26, 2003 at 2:51PM

Neo - The One says:
could someone give some examples of this '101' conspiracy please?
I need to watch the film again :(

Mr. Anderson,

Here's a tutorial on the binary system for your review.

The Matrix films have no less than three explicit references to the number 101 (Neo's apartment number in M1, the freeway #101 in Reloaded, and a large illuminated 101 over the clock on the wall in one of the Reloaded scenes).

I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but we're looking into it to see if it has meaning. 101, even as early as M1, seems to have some sort of relevance that has been yet unclear. The number 5 was brought up by the Architect, as he stated that there have been "five previous versions" of Neo/Zion/Matrix, and that *this* Neo is the sixth version. We were wondering: How does this relate to 101 and five? And if our Neo is the sixth, why haven't we been seeing references to 110 (binary for 6) instead?

Dr. Nosuch on this blog pondered the coolest thought so far. When considering our Neo as the "sixth" version, don't think of 6 as a number, value, or quantity. Instead, consider it a version in a sequence, or a spot in line. In binary notation, computers start from zero (i.e. a 256 color monitor has a value range of 0-255, with 255 actually being the 256th in the sequence). This all ties into the relevance of 101, as it is in fact the sixth.

000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101...

I like to think we're watching the sixth revolution of an endless loop. Bring on Apartment 110!!!!

AndyMay 26, 2003 at 4:06PM

I'm confused by the persistence of "Matrix-within-a-Matrix" theories.

It is wholly possible that Zion is a simulation, but NOT a computer-generated, neural-interactive one (or whatever).

In other words, Zion DOES exist in the physical sense, but the people who are there are still under the broader control of the machines, who allowed them to get there, and can destroy them when they think it's called for.

It is a simulation, yes. That's the whole point! But there's no reason to take it any further and conclude that Zion is a plugged-in simulation. It's a real-world scenario that compliments the real-world need for people in energy-pods.

I'm no philosopher, but I think there's a strong message in this: systems of control are more ingrained than you realize. There are release valves for dissidents built into the systems themselves. Never be entirely sure you're thinking out of the box, because every rebellious move you make may have already been anticipated by the power-that-be who are pulling your strings.

Shitcan the rest of the mumbo-jumbo if you want. I think that's a profound and pertinent message.

theJanMay 26, 2003 at 4:46PM

Andy says:
>It is wholly possible that Zion is a simulation, but NOT a computer-generated, neural-interactive one (or whatever).
>In other words, Zion DOES exist in the physical sense,
>It is a simulation, yes. That's the whole point! But there's no reason to take it any further and conclude that Zion is a plugged-in simulation.

A simulation of what then?? Freedom? In your explanation, that would be the only simulation(?) I see. If Zion is a physical reality, than it is not a simulation of physical reality.

Smith pointed out to Neo that none of them are free, they are slaves to their purpose, and without purpose they would not exist.
(not so sure I agree with that. Maybe, maybe not. Certainly a philosophical q. Probably a truth in Smith's world anyway.)

Freedom is relative. Regardless of any situation, you are always going to be subject to some limitations. Freedom can be classified as an illusion, a myth, or merely a matter of perspective.

Spoon BoyMay 26, 2003 at 5:41PM

Andy says,

In other words, Zion DOES exist in the physical sense, but the people who are there are still under the broader control of the machines, who allowed them to get there, and can destroy them when they think it's called for.

Perhaps, but a little to "John Connor" for me.

there's no reason to take it any further and conclude that Zion is a plugged-in simulation

No reason? I don't even have enough fingers to count the reasons...

AndyMay 26, 2003 at 7:35PM

A simulation of what then?? Freedom?

Exactly. Just so. Anyway, it may be that Zion is electronic, or it may not be. Either way, it is an extension of a control system. I'm just not convinced that it's inside another neural simulation.

Spoon Boy: there are more unexplained things than you can shake a stick at, like Neo's EMP-like power outside the Matrix, but no real suggestion that they are still in energy pods. That is possible, but you're guessing.

JohnMay 26, 2003 at 7:35PM

Some of you think that Neo went into a sub matrix when he left the architect but that wouldn't realy make sense. If that happened trinity and everybody else would have to be programs in that matrix simulating them. This is not impossible as the machines may be trying to trap neo. But if they were programs why not kill him when he fell into the coma. If the machines knew he realised he was still in the matrix why would they let him live.

AndyMay 26, 2003 at 7:43PM

Freedom is relative. Regardless of any situation, you are always going to be subject to some limitations.

Definitely. But the film usually addresses freedom in terms of control. The humans may not be free to sprout magnolias from their nipples, as they are limited by the laws of physics, but the question here is whether Zion is truly under the machines control.

Control is defined in the film as: "The ability to destroy something."

If Zion is physically real, but allowed to exist by the machines and periodically cleansed of all life, then they definitely have control. We'll have to wait and see.

There is also another reason not to think that Zion is a neural simulation: wouldn't everyone there still feel "a splinter in their minds?" A large part of the 2 films already released is built on the basis that some people will innately reject any plugged-in mind control system.

Not only would the Matrix-within-a-Matrix be trite, far from the most interesting possible explanation, it would invalidate much of what's been put forth already. I think it's more plausible and more interesting that Zion is physically real, but still "managed" by the machines (from a distance).

Spoon BoyMay 26, 2003 at 8:08PM

there are more unexplained things than you can shake a stick at, like Neo's EMP-like power outside the Matrix, but no real suggestion that they are still in energy pods.

The unexplained things only demand we question the "real world"; they don't confirm anything about people being in energy pods.

The notion that they're all "still in energy pods" is based on the onionskinnish "matrix within a matrix theory". I'm not a big fan of that theory, as it would be too obvious. There's gotta be more to it. Far cooler would be that there are no pods. Anywhere. No humans. It's all A.I. There is no "final skin", or top level of reality, as it's not reality in the first place.

wouldn't everyone there still feel "a splinter in their minds?"

Not everyone. Only about .1%. Remember, the Oracle's solution has a 99.9% success rate. From the looks of the rave scene, it looks like most folks are buying the illusion.

This .1% failure rate would equate to only about 250 people out of the 250k Zion population, and we haven't seen enough of Zionites to realize this. Perhaps the Counselor is one of these people... as well as the orphan who sent the spoon... both seem to have questions, if not answers...

Spoon BoyMay 26, 2003 at 9:33PM

101 was Neo's apartment number.

303 was Trinity's hotel room number.

Chris says,

Trinity and Neo probably managed to get Trinity preggers...

hmm... 101+303=404

404 "Page Not Found" is the most famous of the HTTP status codes.

Not sure if procreation has anything to do w/ it. But from a purely numeric perspective, you could almost say that Neo and Trinity, when it's all said and done, point to a conclusion that cannot be found...

Neo - Born in Australia - SydneyMay 27, 2003 at 2:00AM

I don't think that the 101 issue will be explained in Revolutions

Spoon BoyMay 27, 2003 at 3:18AM

Neo - Born in Australia - Sydney says:
I don't think that the 101 issue will be explained in Revolutions

Unfortunately, it can't be explained. You have to see it for yourself.

UnbelieverMay 27, 2003 at 9:40AM

Imagine if we find that only the anomaly is real or only that NEO is human in the matrix layers.

Also imagine if NEO proves to be a VIRUS that just cannot be deleted.

Steve-oMay 27, 2003 at 11:01AM

I was just wondering if anyone else noticed the timing of the two lunar eclipses we just happened to have had and are having this year. ;)

110 also sparks interest in the number 11. 11 also sparks interest in the number 2. If you count 2 months inward from both reloaded and
revolutions, you get the month of August. August just happens to be the month Mars is closest to Earth than it has been in 60,000 some years. Hmmmm.

Loved the movie.. have fun everyone!

philMay 27, 2003 at 12:14PM

my problem with the Cave Rave was that it was just lazy. MTV Spring Break in Zion. tits and ass panning. Lazy. It wasn't intense. The love scene wasn't intense. Just wasn't.

Great movie. great effects. very CGI looking at times. still entertaining. The only thing that really shocks me is reaction to the matrix-within-the-matrix idea why be sci-fi haters? Its a classic device. What if The Matrix is the safety valve for the "sub matrix" ? Many possibilities. Will wait for the next sequel.

mjangMay 27, 2003 at 1:19PM

Is there a FAQ anywhere for all of the various theories going on? It seems like there's postings on different message boards that contain new, overlapping, and disproven theories. If there were one source, everyone could collaborate and reduce the redundant info.

I loved the second movie. I don't care if the philosophy is half-baked or sophomoric. The movie and the discussions about it are just fun diversions. I look at the movie series as a puzzle with lots of clues. It's especially appealing to programmers.

MarioMay 27, 2003 at 1:45PM

Some of you are talking about the fact that Agent Smith is out and about in the real world through Bane. The same people find it interesting that Neo's powers work outside the Matrix. BUT WHAT IF... What if "outside the Matrix" is just another Matrix?

It makes sense... think about it. The best way to keep everybody in line isn't to play an interesting charade in the first matrix, with people living outside of "it", but by "letting steam" out of the system by channelling the malcontents through this complex "out-of-the-matrix" matrix.

BrianMay 27, 2003 at 1:55PM

BUT WHAT IF... What if "outside the Matrix" is just another Matrix?

Hmmmm.... Methinks somebody didn't pay attention to the directions:

Post a comment, but please read the entry and all the other comments first to make sure you're adding something new to the conversation.

;-)

Spoon BoyMay 27, 2003 at 2:13PM

If there were one source, everyone could collaborate and reduce the redundant info

I hear there is such a Source, but for some reason our guy took the other option.

It's especially appealing to programmers.

Indeed. And to problem-solvers as well, which programmers necessarily are.

TheoMay 27, 2003 at 3:39PM

A note on the monitors: There's really only 6 different images that are shown, the rest are duplicates. If you look/listen closely, you'll see that five of the six are the responses of the former Neos (when told of his predecessor, one says "four?", another counts on his fingersone-two-three, etc.). The sixth screen is showing what we're actually seeing in the Architect's rotunda, and that's the screen that the camera zooms in on, which then dissolves again to become the actual room.

The monitors are not showing possibilities, they're showing previous interations as well as the current one. The screens also show images of Trinity fighting the Agent and falling out the building before that happens in the movie.

This is the best evidence that it's all a program and that there are no humans. If there were humans, and Neo had to choose 23 people to repopulate Zion, then the gene pool variations would dictate that Neo would fall in love with a Trinity that looked different every single iteration.

But because Neo/we are shown images of Trinity falling in a previous version, we must be watching a program fall, the same program that is falling in the current iteration.

I don't like the "everyone-is-a-program" theory -- I want there to be humans making a last stand -- but I fear I'm losing out to the evidence that's accumalating quickly in favor of the converse.

An interesting, though flawed, argument can be found here for another take: http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0234215/board/nest/1555400

ps- Mero is not a previous One; he said he "survived his 5 predecessors"

DavidMay 27, 2003 at 3:50PM

i bet the screens show what's on Neo's mind, including choises

BillMay 27, 2003 at 4:00PM

Zion is not a "matrix within a matrix" and I have no idea where folks are getting this from. The Architect clearly speaks of The Matrix and Zion as being 2 seperate realities. He clearly states that Neo is supposed to select 23 people FROM the Matrix to rebuild Zion. Ergo, Zion exists OUTSIDE of the Matrix. As for how Neo was able to stop the machines in the "real world," the answer is we don't know yet. We have to wait til November to find out.

Marty MC FlyMay 27, 2003 at 4:10PM

I like the 2nd sequel of The Matrix...as if 1st one of them had been made by another brothers...Latest one has more and more action than previous one...Anyway two of them gave different taste to me...

I read all posts...But I think the next, probably final sequel should be finalized like that...

I watched Reloaded at only one time...But in the movie there is some clue which is easily noticable...I think The Oracle and The Architect have an argument about an something secret...We saw what The Oracle said always happened exactly...but For Architect all things are diffterent...Matrix wasn't destroyed(we will see in the next sequel)...he talk like the leader of machines...

So I think the end of the movie, We will see that Neo will have an ability the control of the all system...And he will give all Matrix inhabitants to chance for realizing the real world which is neither Matrix nor Zion(somewhere in there isn't any need for machines)...Ofcourse he should sacrifice of living as a slave normal human...He will wake up in front of his computer just like as if nothing happend...And then door is knocked...Bam...All green numbers and letters come...

Spoon BoyMay 27, 2003 at 4:30PM

Regarding Theo's post...

Excellent insight, thanks for confirming the monitor details. Particularly notable is your point on the gene pool and the problem it poses if we're dealing with physical humans. Also, the *chronological* aspects of the Trinity footage you noticed is huge.

McFly suggests:

He will wake up in front of his computer just like as if nothing happend...And then door is knocked...Bam...All green numbers and letters come...

I like it. But keep going for another 30 seconds or so. Neo gets up to open his door; his Apartment number is now 110, indicating we're now on the seventh revolution. The 110 shot morphs into green code, we zoom into the zero of the 110, and then fade to black...

theJanMay 27, 2003 at 4:56PM

Theo says:
>If there were humans, and Neo had to choose 23 people to repopulate Zion, then the gene pool variations would dictate that Neo would fall in love with a Trinity that looked different every single iteration.

You missed something here. Here is a transcript of part of the Architect convo:
The Architect - "It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love."

He's saying here that none of the others had a "Trinity". This is something unique to this incarnation. And as I said before, Neo is an anomaly, not a clone. Each incarnation, if of biological origin, would each have different DNA, thus look different in any "previous reactions" on the monitors. Who's even to say the previous "One"s were all men?

In looking over the Architect Conversation transcript again, I did find something that lends credence to the "matrix w/in matrix" thing:
(excerpted from the same quote as above)

Architect:
"...Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one..."

What exactly does he mean "BY DESIGN based on"?? & "a contingent affirmation that was meant to create... facilitating the function of the one"??

As much as I hate to admit this, it certainly sounds like the architect is implying he "designed" Neo! And facilitated his function as well! *gasp*

I still say though, that computer program or not, intelligence = soul = "real".

TheoMay 27, 2003 at 5:37PM

theJan said: He's saying here that none of the others had a "Trinity". This is something unique to this incarnation. And as I said before, Neo is an anomaly, not a clone.

No, that's not what he's saying at all. Neo is a program, that's why all his predecessors look the same. Biology isn't a factor, as there are no humans (if we're to follow the "everyone-is-a-program" theory). Once the system gets rebooted, it starts over, from scratch, like a game, with the same characters--only the Architect retains a memory of what happened in the prior iteration, like a backup, as seen on the five other screens. Look again at what's happening in the screens--each of the five answer as if each were a One, using numbered responses in direct response to Architect's statements.

There are Trinitys in previous iterations; there have to be if the Oracle's purpose is to be consistent. All six Neos choose the same door. The others chose it in an attempt to save the 'human' race. The sixth, our Neo, chooses it for love. Because the AI is, after five iterations, coming to finally understand the more elusive and erratic of human functions, love.

I don't like to admit it either, but all signs point to there being no humans (in a biological sense). I remain unconvinced, but willing to entertain the idea of a dual matrix, but so far I'm not there like I am with the everyone is a program theory.

theJanMay 27, 2003 at 6:01PM

More from the transcript:

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.


Me here: "...you remain irrevocably human"
The Arcitect clearly states here that despite any "process" that may have "altered his consciousness" Neo IS in fact HUMAN (irrevocably - meaning "can't change that even if I wanted too")

How about this: the architect is dabbling in BIOLOGICAL engineering /programming / design! eh?

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly

Correction on my earlier post: Neo is not a reincarnation, he is simply a statistically inevitable exception to the rules. Neo is a regular human, except for the fact that his brain/mind is able to see through the illusion of the matrix, where other's can't. He has more control over the function of his brain. He's like the three year old who can play classical music on the piano, or the seven year old who taught himself seven languages. A genius. An anomaly. It's not that the same guy keeps getting reincarnated. To use an analogy, it's more like eventually, statistically, out of every so many people being "born", one is going to be albino. Well, in the Matix eventually one is going to be born with this unique ability. It's statistically inevitable. It keeps happening, and since the matrix was created, this is the sixth time it has happened.

At least that's the way I understand it. Or perhaps the biological engineering and the computer programming are intertwined and interdependent. It would make sense that the humans would be being "engineered" - to get the juciest batteries i suppose?

Something else I noticed:

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

Okay now, unless he told them all they were "quicker than the others", these can't be responses from previous anomalies! It has to be our Neo. eh? eh?

theJanMay 27, 2003 at 6:26PM

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

Integral. I looked it up. Guess it can't be chance than. By design. I think perhaps the anomaly is by design, but it's emergence is by chance, or eventuality. Yeah.
Hell, I don't know, my brain hurts! :-P

It's fun trying to figure it out though!

WayneMay 27, 2003 at 6:28PM

This isn't in keeping with the "let's theorize about a theoretical world" aspect of this thread but my only disappointment with the movie is that the W brothers seem to be falling into the Godfather syndrome: same movie structure with a different (maybe deeper) skin. They could have foregone 20 of the Agent Smiths and paid for screenwriters to come up with a structure that was distinguished from the Matrix.

Spoon BoyMay 27, 2003 at 6:38PM

Jan says,

I still say though, that computer program or not, intelligence = soul = "real".

Totally. This is precisely what Spielberg's lame movie (what a waste of a great title and killer logo) was trying to say (i.e. If a computer can feel love, it is any less real than us?" etc. Gag me.)

The W's may be on their way to delivering the same thought proking message w/o Spielberg's sappiness, and @ least 101 times the impact...

Theo says:

I don't like to admit it either, but all signs point to there being no humans (in a biological sense).

Would this not be the coolest way to round this story out though? I mean, what better way is there?

As for the signs that seem so obvious, there are apparently many folks out there who are either missing 'em or looking the other way.

I wouldn't see the "exclusively A.I." theory as anticlimactic @ all. Quite the opposite.

Spoon BoyMay 27, 2003 at 6:56PM

Jan,

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

Perhaps the other Ones you ask about are 000, 001, 010, 011, and 100. We're now on 101, with no reason to think we won't continue on with 110, 111, 100, 1010... infinitely.

We all know that when it comes down to it, software is nothing but ones and zeroes. If Neo is the One, then everything else must be nothing.

Theo says:

All six Neos choose the same door. The others chose it in an attempt to save the 'human' race. The sixth, our Neo, chooses it for love.

Cool. What we're seeing is that after six revolutions, nothing's really changed. It's only getting faster.

TheoMay 27, 2003 at 8:11PM

theJan says: Me here: "...you remain irrevocably human"
The Arcitect clearly states here that despite any "process" that may have "altered his consciousness" Neo IS in fact HUMAN (irrevocably - meaning "can't change that even if I wanted too")

The Architect/Neo dialogue script supports the "everyone-is-a-program" theory as well as your own. Humans are only humans because they're written that way. They're humans because they don't know how not to be. When the Oracle is sitting on the bench with Neo, she points out the pigdeons, saying there's an algorithm to explain them, their function. Remember? Well, the 'humans' that we see, the ones the Architect refers to, are the same; they are human only insofar as they're human programs.

I believe Neo is a human program who is becoming more than that--he's the exception, the anomaly, he's transcending his program. My reasons are based on the Agents in the beginning of the movie who say, "He. Is. Still. Only. Human." A human program, Neo is striving to be more, and the Agents know this, so the emphasis is on the "Still only", as in, "He's not yet more than human." The Councilor also says something to the effect of "It's a reminder that you're still human." when Neo says he can't sleep.

theJan says:
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

Okay now, unless he told them all they were "quicker than the others", these can't be responses from previous anomalies! It has to be our Neo. eh? eh?

This was a response given by only one screen, and it's safe to assume that it was either #3, #4, or #5 who said it, as prior to #1 there was none, prior to #1 there only one other, not others--as for why he would have said it at all, each iteration gets fasters, Neo learns more and more quickly, so the Architect saying this to any Neo #3 or higher makes perfect sense.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong when the film comes out, I still want there to be actually humans in this world the W brothers have created. I'm reminded of a quote from the architect of the World Trade Center, Minoru Yamasaki, who, when asked why not build a 220 story building instead of a two 110 story buildings, said "I wanted to retain the human scale."

Even if they're human programs in the end, it's still not the same, the scale is lost, as is our ability to empathize--although the statement it would make about determinism and free will is profound, frightening, truly irrevocable.

TheoMay 27, 2003 at 8:19PM

clarification on above post:

theJan says:
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

Okay now, unless he told them all they were "quicker than the others", these can't be responses from previous anomalies! It has to be our Neo. eh? eh? [end theJan statement]

My reply: This was a response given by only one screen, and it's safe to assume that it was either #3, #4, or #5 who said it, as prior to #1 there was none, prior to #2 there only one other, namely #1, not others--as for why he would have said it at all, each iteration gets fasters, Neo learns more and more quickly, so the Architect saying this to any Neo #3 or higher makes perfect sense.

Spoon BoyMay 27, 2003 at 8:29PM

Hey Theo,

Is your last name Ne? :)

We found him, people. We finally found him.

theJanMay 27, 2003 at 8:49PM

Interesting thoughts Theo, Spoon Boy (everyone else). I've read so many intriguing ideas here. Seems like this story could go in any number of directions. Thanks for the intelligent insights & commentary. I'm looking forward to seeing what we might have hit on in November!

ThomasMay 27, 2003 at 8:51PM

Anyone who recognizes a good movie and knows well the elements that make such a film, knows that Matrix Reloaded is not that good.

The Matrix had a great balance of things: good story, good special effects, good acting (due to Joe Pantoliano and some others) and a good ending (left open ended, but optimistic). It was a great package.

However, The Matrix Reloaded focused too much on special effects/action and everthing else became secondary. The formula was extremely potent for fighting, but very weak for the other elements that make a good movie.

It's dissapointing when you know it could have been better.

theJanMay 27, 2003 at 8:53PM

>We found him, people. We finally found him.

hehehehe... clever

theJanMay 27, 2003 at 8:58PM

>Thomas says:
Anyone who recognizes a good movie...

It's all in the eye of the beholder. If you enjoy it, then it's good.

Joe KaczmarekMay 27, 2003 at 11:18PM

Who says that the different Neo's have to have different DNA? For the Matrix's power grid, humans are not born, they are grown. So why not keep growing Neos from the same DNA?

TheoMay 27, 2003 at 11:50PM

I'm heartened by so many incisive perspectives on these films, here and elsewhere, and especially in the latest few posts to this blog, if you're interested. Great stuff on Councilor Hamann to rival the binary 101=6-but-is really-6-considering-0-is-starting-point theory.

http://matrixessays.blogspot.com/

MikeMay 28, 2003 at 12:08AM

Neo - Born in Australia - Sydney says:
I don't think that the 101 issue will be explained in Revolutions.

I think the thing to look for will be something like Tolkien: 9 Ring Wraiths, 9 members of the Fellowship, 9 fingers for Frodo (Y'all knew Frodo loses a finger, yes?). Hopefully Revolutions won't settle on leaving the theme of 5 unresolved in the plot. Symbolically, the obvious meaning lies in the pentagram (the 4 alchemical elements + the soul), but hopefully the theme will manifest itself in the plot, like we will see in LOTR.

filchyboyMay 28, 2003 at 12:30AM

Jason say,

The depth of the movie doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get a lot out of it...someone wrote an entire book on philosophy and The Simpsons and it's hard to imagine The Simpsons was conceived as a philosophical masterwork.

It's actually academic whether the Simpsons was conceived as a philosophical masterpiece. Same goes for the Matrix. You may recall a little book called The Bible which was conceived as an oral history yet for some reason quite a few folk have invested an awful lot of energy into dissecting its philosophical construct.

It is always a mistake to assume that the authors intention amounts to a hill of beans when discussing these things. The text is what is important.

PS I intended for this to be a cogent reply. See what I get for conceiving of such a thing.

TheoMay 28, 2003 at 12:47AM

William Irwin edited The Simpsons and Philosophy: The D'oh of Homer, a shameless anthology. However, he also edited The Matrix and Philosophy: Welcome to the Desert of the Real, which has some intelligent and lucid deconstruction and discussion of the film. Another one to watch out for: Taking the Red Pill: Science, Philosophy and Religion in The Matrix. Next month witnesses the publication of The Gospel Reloaded: Exploring Spirituality and Faith in The Matrix; I remain doubtful about this one--Christians cling to Neo as if he were their very own, when he belongs to the pantheon of traditions from which W brothers culled material.

Check it out: http://killingthebuddha.com/

Steve-oMay 28, 2003 at 12:55AM

Hi everyone, thanks for the thought provocking thread. I have some questions left regarding the Architect:

(1.) Couldn't the Architect, himself, be a program designed to give Neo (partial if not complete) disinformation? Why or why not should we trust anything the Architect said. Could the monitors be a representation of Neo's psyche rather than previous versions of him?
But then the info. about the differences between him and his predecessors (i.e. Trinity only in the 6th version) tend to shoot that down. But again, it can still be disinformation designed to trick Neo can't it? Could the Architect himself be the product of a programming
anomaly just as he said Neo was. On second thought I doubt it but it's at least worth pondering.

(2) Notice how while Neo is shown going through the doorway to the source, he is shown as a point of light going to or forming into what looks like a star. Is this just a cool transition scene or could it have relevance to the story. Example: As there are many stars in the sky, could there also be many "sources". This may be nothing, but did anyone notice how many stars (points of light) are visible during this scene?

Lastly, a quick point regarding the Matrix and Zion:

Neo doesn't see code when he says something is different and drops them and goes into a coma. This doesn't necessarily mean anything, because there are times inside the Matrix
that don't reveal Neo's sight of code to us either. It seems either way I am left wondering if Zion is part of the Matrix or not. Is there a deeper connection between Agent Smith and Neo? That 'chocolate' zapper may have left some code in the wrong places.

EdMay 28, 2003 at 1:27AM

I have my doubts as to whether Revolutions will end in the same way The Matrix began. It simply wouldn't make sense in narrative terms. A story is that time in which the stasis of a life is broken--and while Neo's stasis is certainly broken in The Matrix, the larger stasis, that of humanity trapped in an endless loop of matrices, would not be changed at all. In that sense, Revolutions returning to the exact beginning of The Matrix would be a weaker (though undeniably interesting) resolution than a complete escape from the matrix.

Further support for this is the fact Neo 101 is the first to choose the path that would destroy all humanity. All the others choose the route that will restart the Matrix and Zion. This break has the potential for a superior story.

My big question is, the Architect seems to WANT Neo to destroy all humanity. Why? Do the machines have some kind of Asimovian robot code programmed into them, or is the explanation something else entirely?

I have some more commentary on my website, but it's more an analysis of other reviews than speculation on where Revolutions is going.

Joe KaczmarekMay 28, 2003 at 7:30AM

As for Zion being real and separate from the Matrix, and Neo's coma at the end... has anyone completed the game Enter The Matrix? I completed it with Niobe (cheated my way through just to get through the story quickly), and at one point she's talking to the Oracle (in the movie's timeline this must be after Neo goes into the coma) and the Oracle kinda gives some direction as to the answer. SPOILERShe says about how his mind is now trapped between the Matrix and the real world. Hense another program making the distinction that Zion is the real world./SPOILER

And as for Persephone perhaps being the "mother" of the Matrix, again in the game, it seems like Persephone wants to kiss everybody they way they kiss their lover. Maybe it is all about love and all of these different Neo versions are all just for the machines to understand what it means to love (love for humanity, love for Trinity, etc).

I have to see it again, but I never thought that Smith taking over Bane was a Neo-dream-sequence? Remember Morpheus asked someone to say behind to wait for a message from the Oracle, and then those two guys got a message to deliver. Bane just didn't get out in time and was taken over by Smith. I don't see why some people are thinking that's a dream sequence, but I still have to see the movie more times.

BrianMay 28, 2003 at 11:30AM

It has been said:
but I never thought that Smith taking over Bane was a Neo-dream-sequence?

On my first viewing I thought it was a dream, because Neo snaps awake right after it happens, much like he did after seeing Trinity fall in earlier dreams. But on my 2nd viewing, I realized that what comes next -- delivery of the Oracle's message to Neo's door -- explains what was in the envelope they had to get back.

jkottkeMay 28, 2003 at 11:41AM

Here's a (negative) review from James Lileks that touches on some of the same issues that others have raised in this thread.

BrianMay 28, 2003 at 11:46AM

Yea, verily, blasphemy was thus spoken:
I think the thing to look for will be something like Tolkien:

Ack! Thpfth! Okay, when we're teetering on the edge of comparisons to Tolkien, it's time to back up the truck. :-)

Kidding -- I'm not a Defender of the Trilogy, but I was thinking about something this morning that this thread is bringing to light. We are tunneling way down into a search for deeper, hidden meanings in TMR and, by extension, the Matrix series.

I would like to suggest that for a moment we helicopter back up a few thousand feet and take another look at what The Matrix was: a very smart, tightly-written allegory about how we are controlled by society.

Thomas Anderson's co-workers at Metacortex and all of those still trapped in the Martix were like all of us who find ourselves made comfortably numb by the trappings of society. We make choices not because it's what we want to do, but because it's what we must do due to the controls put in place by society (yes, I'm over-generalizing here, but bear with me). The Matrix, a.k.a. "The System" must track down and destroy those who would go against the system.

At that, The Matrix was an outstanding stand-alone movie. While the Brothers W may have had in mind the sequels when they wrote The Matrix I doubt anyone knew for certain that the first movie was going to be such a hit and create an opportunity for more profit; i.e., sequels. Which is to say, the Brothers are making it up as they go. I think it's doubtful that the vision for the Matrix universe was anywhere near fully formed in 1999. Of course, the same could be said of Middle Earth when The Hobbit was first published in 1937.

I suppose my point -- and I have one! :-) -- is that I want to encourage us to not lose sight of the social allegory aspects of the Matrix trilogy as we continue plumbing the depths of the rabbit hole.

RBMay 28, 2003 at 12:23PM

Re: At that, The Matrix was an outstanding stand-alone movie. While the Brothers W may have had in mind the sequels when they wrote The Matrix I doubt anyone knew for certain that the first movie was going to be such a hit and create an opportunity for more profit; i.e., sequels.

When the news of sequels to the Matrix being created first broke, the W's did say that they had originally conceived the entire story as a trilogy. They didn't intend for it to be just a single movie. The first mention of it, according to a (google-cached) article on Keanuweb, was in August 99. I like to think that they had it planned from the start, but understood that if the first failed, there would be no 2 or 3.

Re: the Bane-Smith issue.

I've read a lot of comments about this. One thought I had during an email discussion with a friend was this:

Someone (on this site, actually) suggested that the Smith connection has to do with the mind - "the mind makes it so". Actions in the Matrix can affect the bodies in the real world. Maybe Smith didn't in fact take over the body, but brainwashed the guy. Found a way to reprogram him real-time. I think that Smith just gained reverse-Neo powers (well, sorta - you know what I mean). If Neo can affect stuff in the Matrix, why can't Smith gain some understanding of how the outside and humans work? In one of the animatrix shorts (and made somewhat obvious by the fact that they can contain a human for their entire life and not have them aware of it), they say that the machines spent a lot of time experimenting on humans and completely understand them. They don't detail more, but isn't it possible that they have a huge database of how humans basically work? Now, the question that follows that is why don't they use it? Well, maybe they're like us now (like 2003 right now) - we know what happens, we know why, we just can't connect the two, or understand how to control it. However, maybe, in melding with Neo, Smith gains that last puzzle piece. It's one way, because Neo doesn't have that database.

This, of course, ignores the other onion-skin Matrix theory. But I'm only discussing one theory at a time.

EdMay 28, 2003 at 12:28PM

An odd number of weblogs have complained about the music in Reloaded, particularly that over the credits. What strikes me as strange about this is that, for both movies, the first song at movie's end has been a Rage Against the Machine song.

Play one Rage song, and it might be a coincidence. But play two, and you HAVE to have something deeper in mind--and anyone familiar with Rage is going to associate them with 1) excellent rock and 2) hardcore leftism.

This is supported by the shots of Bush Jr. and Sr. during the Architect's discussion of his addition of human atrocity to the matrix, as well as the as-yet unconfirmed report that, when Cypher is talking to Agent Smith in the restaurant in The Matrix, Smith refers to him as Mr. Reagan. Cypher goes on to say "I don't want to remember anything" (Alzheimer's?), and wants to be someone important, like a movie star (former career of Ronnie?). (I'm going to view this scene as soon as I'm done here to ensure I've got this right, but the only thing I'm not certain of is Cypher's real name.)

Anyway, given that the trilogy is not only an allegory of various religious beliefs, but one of modern society, the choice of over-credit music could not be any more appropriate. If you don't like Rage, fine, but its inclusion only makes the movies all the better.

EdMay 28, 2003 at 12:52PM

Just re-watched the Cypher restaurant scene. Agent Smith refers to him as Mr. Reagan twice, but when he gets to those two words, he says them so softly it's difficult to pick out. Subtitles, however, show it clearly, spelled the same way as the ex-president.

Of course, Cypher dies before he can be made into the Ronald Reagan, but it's one more bit of circumstantial evidence for the case that The Matrix is the most subversive movie to come along since...uhh, some movie I might be able to name if I weren't all hopped up on painkillers right now.

JCMay 28, 2003 at 1:29PM

1. While undeniably, Morpheus' character reflects Civil Rights Era figures, particularly MLK Jr., his line "I have dreamed a dream...but now that dream has gone from me" is almost a direct biblical reference: "And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream" (Daniel 2.3) ... "...the thing is gone from me" (Daniel 2.8). The speaker (the king) is none other than, gasp, Nebuchadnezzar. Not to sound terribly arrogant, because there are many parts that confuse me as well, but the Wachowskis did almost too good a job with the philosophy present in the film; some of it is simply over the head of the average Joe. This is perhaps why people say it takes itself too seriously; let me remind you, though, that much of the greatest literature and art ever created is great due to its use of allusion, topical, mythic, or otherwise.

2. Cypher is most certainly NOT in this film. At all. Just had to re-establish that if it wasn't clear. The survivor at the end is, as many have already stated, the Bane character (the one who cut his hand before shaking Neo's), into whom Agent Smith has apparently downloaded himself.

3. Regarding Neo's control over the Sentinels and #2 above, there are, it seems to me, two clear possibilities. One, Neo's destruction of Smith in the first film precipitated a two-way transfer: Agent Smith received something of Neo's powers, some freedom from the control of the Matrix, and Neo in turn received some vestige of control over the machines in the real world. It's not inconceivable that an artificially intelligent program as advanced as Smith could "download" itself into a biological brain (wetware ;-). Or, two, Zion is truly another level of the Matrix, and everyone there, including Neo, is still plugged in. I'm partial to the second idea; Zion and the Prophecy are, as the Architect told us, simply more systems of control--anomalies in their system that the machines managed to find a control mechanism for. It seems to make sense, therefore, that it would be easier and more efficient to keep these rebels, products of the "One" anomaly, in the environment which the machines could most easily facilitate; namely, VR--the Matrix. Or another part of it. Why would they risk allowing a bunch of humans to run around in the vast labyrinth of the real world, no matter how many sentinels they've got flying around, when they could just as easily fool them from the very beginning into thinking they had escaped into reality, while they actually had not. This idea seems to much more aptly explain Smith's transfer and Neo's powers in the "real world".
I was intrigued by someone's mention earlier about the Oracle's red candy...I hadn't thought of that. Quite clever.

GluttonMay 28, 2003 at 2:45PM

I just read/skimmed the entire thread. Good stuff!

I personally loved the movie, and for me, the Smith subplot is the most fascinating. In M1, he's something of a subversive. He hates the Matrix and wants to leave it, yet he is one of its most powerful denizens (well, upon seeing M2 perhaps not). His rebellion is focused on his earpiece, which presumably is his connection to the "mainframe" or central command center. In the scene in M1 where he tries to break Morpheus, he removes his earplug before he goes off on his anti-Matrix rant -- preventing his superiors and subordinates from detecting his discontent, and as it happens, clouding his clairvoyance so he doesn't realize that Neo and Trinity are attempting a rescue.

When Neo blasts him at the end of M1, he somehow removes Smith from the usual laws of the Matrix -- not only by being able to create an unlimited number of iterations of himself (all cracking their necks), but also severing the control that his superiors have over him. That's why he gave Neo his earpiece -- to show that he was now a free agent.

Most of the evidence thus far suggests that Neo cannot defeat the machines, the "human EMP" trick notwithstanding. The misnamed "One" phenomenon is a feature of the Matrix and one the machines are ready for. Perhaps it will be the Smiths that destroy the Matrix. I am reminded, for some reason, of that wonderful cheezefest
Hackers where the kids try to bring down the "Gibson" by hitting it with a "rabbit" virus that propogates until it fills up the memory. Logic dictates that unless destroyed, the Smiths will one day fill up the Matrix and thus destroy it. Although with all their hopping around, it's a wonder that the Agents haven't filled landfills with their IMI Desert Eagles and skinny ties.

My point is, the Architect expected and prepared for Neo, but not for the Smiths.

A couple other notes:

1) Anyone else detect a subtle Snow Crash influence here? Particularly with the program affecting human minds? The W brothers' geek credentials dictate that the MUST have read SC.

2) I find it interesting that the baddies are called "machines" but there seem to be no sentient machines. The only intelligences we see are humans and programs, with both utilizing dumb machines.

jakeMay 28, 2003 at 2:53PM

jake- about 150 good posts on the same topic at Gothamist- lots of good ideas: http://www.gothamist.com/archive/002398.php

Ged ByrneMay 28, 2003 at 3:31PM

On the subject of free will, here is an interesting quote from BBC Radio4's Recent Reith Lectures by Vilayanur S Ramachandran

Take somebody and tell him or her, in the next ten minutes wiggle your finger whenever you feel like it three times. Just do it three times but whenever you feel like it, using your free will. They can do it all in the first one minute or wait till the ninth minute or tenth minute and the person uses his free will and wiggles his finger. Now you measure his brain potentials. The amazing thing is almost three-fourths of a second prior to his feeling that he has willed the movement of the finger, there's a brain potential you can detect - and you can predict he's going to move his finger. This is well known and it created a big controversy among philosophers. Doesn't this negate free will?

Theres been a lot of talk about machines not having free will, and since the humans do not have free will then they must be machines.

Well, as this observation confirms, our free will is somewhat questionable. When we consider will our finger to move, the choice was actually made some time before. It really is possible to tell somebody what they are about to do!

I think this gives an interesting perspective to what the Oracle says: 'You have already made your choice, but you don't know why you made that choice,' and, 'we cannot see beyond the choices we do not yet understand.'

I think the implication of Ramachandran's experiment is that our choices are not a product of our rational, logical, conscience brain. The choices are made somewhere deeper within our soul. What our conscience intelligence does is try to understand those choices, so that we can accurately act through on them.

Until we understand why we are just blindly following orders.

I think that the wall monitors represent the human decision process, so different to machine logic. Within the mind a myriad of possible throughts compete until one gains domination. The screens represent this thinking process.

When the Architect talks about Neo's decisition process he says 'Already a chemical reaction has given birth to an emotion...'

The architect is describing the human thinking process, not machine logic. Neo is human.

Ged ByrneMay 28, 2003 at 3:34PM

Another implication of the number 6 (rather than 5) is the mark of the beast: 666.

Revelation also talks of New Jerusulum (Zion is the mount upon which the temple of Jersulum was built.)

Should that be Matrix Revelation, rather than Revolution?

Ged ByrneMay 28, 2003 at 3:37PM

When Neo says 'Something has changed, I can feel them' is he actually referring to the Sentinals?

Could he be referring to the Submarine that comes into ECG range just in time? Is it his link to Smith/Bane that he is feeling?

Jason R.May 28, 2003 at 3:39PM

I find this thread very enlightening, and I just wanted to add my three cents on it. It seems to me that the character of Bane/Baine/Smith-in-the-real-world cuts his hands because he's "human". I read an article somewhere talking about this, and I have to agree with it. Smith has always wanted to be "free" and inside of Bane he is indeed free. He has never FELT pain or any sort of emotion, which is why he cuts his hand. It seems to beg the question: with all of this "emotion" from Smith's character, does he end of helping Neo in the end of Revolutions?

Hopefully someone hasn't mentioned this before, but if you did, my bad. glitch in the matrix i suppose. (wow, I can see that one becoming the new cliche of the century)

Ged ByrneMay 28, 2003 at 3:41PM

If the Architect is talking about the Oracle, he says it was an Intuitive program design to explore the human Pshyke.

Is the Oracles real name Eliza? Is that why she can never give a straight answer to a question?

You: Am I the One?
Eliza: Would you want to be the one?

Ged ByrneMay 28, 2003 at 3:46PM

On second viewing I think I understand the purpose of the temple rave sceen.

When they arrive at Zion Link declares that its good to be home.

Looking at their existance on Zion I afraid this doesn't ring true. No wonder Cypher wanted to go back to the Matrix!

So it was necessary to make Zion desirable. We are therefore given Link's family and the temple rave to show that life in Zion really is worth living.

CarolynMay 28, 2003 at 4:11PM

The survivor at the end of the movie was smith. Near the beginning, he "took over" that goatee guy's body and then exited the matrix into Zion. He also tried to kill Neo at one point when they were leaving to go and see the oracle. The "survivor" was also responsible for sabotaging the counter attack on the sentinals.

RayneMay 28, 2003 at 4:50PM

Whoa! who'da guessed a sequel would ever generate this much actual THINKING about the spiritual and metaphysical worlds?

Before reading this thread I believed Architect = God, and that perhaps the point is that as humans learn to make the right choice, there is no need for God. So...why didn't Neo wipe up the floor with the Architect? Wouldn't you do that with a software architect who requires 5+ iterations to produce yet another anomalous function?

Perhaps that's not the case after all; perhaps the Architect is a more sinister role, manifest Evil, that which is calculated and not felt, inhuman not human...perhaps Evil = predestination, pre-ordination, a complete void of real choice.

Whichever case, post-birth and pre-death consciousness is a construct, whether authentic or veridical. It's predicated on genetic, memetic limitations and experiences; finding a way outside of these pre-determined limiters may be the very challenge which makes us super-conscious, super-human.

BrianMay 28, 2003 at 4:59PM

Right, said Ged:
Is the Oracles real name Eliza? Is that why she can never give a straight answer to a question?

Pah! Great one, Ged! Now we know how the Brothers really scripted the Oracle. :-)

EdMay 28, 2003 at 5:23PM

According to the gnosticism on which The Matrix triology appears to be heavily based, the creator of the false world in which we are trapped--in this case, the Architect of the Matrix--would not be God, but Satan. So that would fit right in with your latest conclusion, Rayne.

I still want to know why he wanted The One to reload the matrix in each of the last 5 iterations, but now appears to want Neo to make the choice that will lead to the death of all humanity.

RayneMay 28, 2003 at 5:50PM

Ed -- the Architect only offers one of two solutions, and we all know life's rarely that simple. If Evil is that which is calculable, perhaps the choice is the incalculable, or the selection of ALL OF THE ABOVE or NONE OF THE ABOVE which were not offered.

If Neo makes no choice, what's the outcome?
If Neo takes out the Architect, what's the outcome?

I'm still left with these two options hanging unresolved since my first assessment, where Architect = God...but now a new wrinkle, a la Christ and a host of other sacrificed gods before Him:

What if Neo simply kills himself, making the supreme sacrifice to remove The One from the equation and remove the issue of Choice from the Architect's design?

Hmm.

Nuts, now I'm going to have to go and rethink this all over again. I might even have to break down and see the movie tomorrow a second time, falling yet again into the morass that is "The Matrix-Commercial Success".

Spoon BoyMay 28, 2003 at 5:56PM

Rayne says:

Before reading this thread I believed Architect = God,...

...Perhaps that's not the case after all; perhaps the Architect is a more sinister role, manifest Evil

There has been much speculation regarding the Architect's "intentions", and people have naturally been referring to the Architect as a "he". I think of the Architect not as a personality, but the underlying logic driving A.I. which has been manifested in a male character so that we as a human audience can conceptualize such an abstract entity in the story. Think of the Architect as the binary file. Depending on who you ask and when, you'll find differing opinions about whether the binary is good or evil. lol.

RTFB Neo!

jayMay 28, 2003 at 7:08PM

A couple of people have touched on this: the characters in these movies are far from reliable. How do we know we can trust what the Oracle or the Architect or anyone tells us? We basically see the action as Neo perceives it, and we know he has a history of being deceived. Even when we think we understand a character's motivations, his beliefs are suspect. Proving anything concrete about this story is very difficult when the validity of our evidence is so suspect. I think that's part of the point.

To whoever said that Minority Report was Matrix-influenced, you have it backwards. Nobody's pointed it out in this thread, so I'll say for the record that Minority Report was based on a short story written by Philip K. Dick back in the 60's. Nobody's mentioned Blade Runner in the context of man / machine ambiguity, either. That was based on a Dick novel, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? If the questions about perception and reality raised by The Matrix interest you, I recommend reading some Dick. That stuff's all over his work.

Regarding the Architect's choice of words:
I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.
Someone said that the word implied that the anomaly was designed by the Architect. I took "integral" to mean "a whole," meaning the manifestation of the anomaly as a being, The One. The dual definition of "essential" is interesting, but I don't think it means that the anomaly exists by design. In fact, I think that by saying it is essential, he implies that it is not designed. It is inherent in the system, and the system can only hope to control it.

Your five predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of The One.
I think that the Architect refers to design as a conditioning of Anderson's personality rather than the construction of his consciousness. If I remember correctly, when this line is spoken the monitors show scenes from Anderson's life. This implies that the machines know that he is The One all along and breed him to act according to their plan. This contradicts the supposition in the first movie (presented by Morpheus, I believe) that the agents don't know who The One is and are trying to find him. Of course, it's possible that the agents aren't aware of the larger plan or that Morpheus is misinformed.

On free will: there's an interesting interview in the first issue of The Believer with philosopher Galen Strawson who believes that free will as we know it is impossible. I wish I had his proof in front of me, but it basically states that every decision we make is based on a combination of our genetics and environmental experience. Any attempt to say that experience is effected by previous decisions could be refuted by saying that all previous decisions were based on the environmental conditions brought about by previous decisions. I'm not sure I like it, and my description is almost certainly flawed, but it does relate to the idea that Neo could be controlled by being fed certain environmental conditions throughout his life. Note that saying there is no free will is not the same thing as saying there is predestination. Even if there is no ultimate choice involved in my decisions, there is no way to absolutely predict my actions. So, all the machines can do is guide Neo and hope that he turns out ok. After all, the universe is inherently probablistic.

Which brings me to my final point: Even computers have a chance of miscalculating due to the nature of electricity. Even though algorithms are deterministic, the implementation of them is not. It is possible for a computer to return 2+2=5, however highly unlikely. Increase the complexity to something like the matrix, and you're bound to have the occasional problem. Especially if you're building vampires into the thing and expecting rogue processes to terminate themselves. No wonder it needs to be patched and rebooted occasionally.

Ok, sorry I was so long-winded. I hope some of this is meaningful to somebody. Keep thinking.

MikeMay 28, 2003 at 8:27PM

"On free will: there's an interesting interview in the first issue of The Believer with philosopher Galen Strawson who believes that free will as we know it is impossible."

Can someone explain to me why debate over free will didn't end with the atomic bomb? I once had a high school physics teacher break down how time is non-linear -- ie Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday becomes Tuesday, Monday, Wednesday, depending on where you are and how fast you are traveling -- from the given that the speed of light is constant, which is a foundation of nuclear physics. The only difference between the past and the future is that you remember the past, and don't remember the future.

"Before reading this thread I believed Architect = God, and that perhaps the point is that as humans learn to make the right choice, there is no need for God... Perhaps that's not the case after all; perhaps the Architect is a more sinister role, manifest Evil..."

From the emphasis of control as a theme, and how it eludes even the Architect of the Matrix, it appears to me as if he fits comfortable again into the role of Grail King.

Of course, Satan can also be interpreted as a grail king, refusing to bow before Man in some versions because of his devotion to God.

"Ack! Thpfth! Okay, when we're teetering on the edge of comparisons to Tolkien, it's time to back up the truck... I would like to suggest that for a moment we helicopter back up a few thousand feet and take another look at what The Matrix was: a very smart, tightly-written allegory about how we are controlled by society."

Well, the Matrix is an allegory about control, and LOTR is an allegory about the relationship between ego, gratification, and the soul. That doesn't sound all that different to me.

I hope no one minds if I balance out the pro-Bush Lileks link by referring to the Bush-critical Maureen Down speaking of the Matrix.

MikeMay 28, 2003 at 9:37PM

Dowd: http://www.sltrib.com/2003/May/05202003/commenta/commenta.asp

ChrisMay 28, 2003 at 11:41PM

I just went and saw reloaded again today, and while i was watching the credits again i saw something very interesting:

theres a credit for a "young thomas anderson". I didnt see him in reloaded but is it possible he somehow features in revolutions but was credited in reloaded anyway.

its interesting to think what that could mean.

EdMay 29, 2003 at 12:26AM

Pretty sure the various "Thomas Anderson, Age 4" etc are credits for the videos shown of Neo's life while he's speaking to the Architect.

By the way, a theory for why the Architect changed things in the 6th iteration so Neo would kill everyone is that he's gone over the heads of the other machines to force the end of mankind. This makes a certain amount of sense, considering the Agents aren't in on all the relevant info, and would explain why the Architect doesn't just kill everyone himself: he can't. He has to trick Neo into doing his bidding, because otherwise the other machines would never do it themselves.

It's the first alternative I've thought of to the machines being restricted by some kind of Prime Directive, anyway.

CarolynMay 29, 2003 at 4:17AM

I just read the entire page and apologize for repeating, 16 other people. Spoon boy, you are a genius.

I have a question or two.

1) why was it that after neo exited the left door, the whole place exloded? Did anyone else find that confusing? Was it just for effects, so that we could see Neo flying out of a burning building on his way to save Trinity, or is there some deeper meaning?

2) I looked up some stuff about Merovingian and the myths and legends behind it and found a nine page explanation. It was purely some guys theory on it, but what I gathered from it is that Neo and the Merovingian might be brothers, in a cain and able/jesus satan way. I totally disagree with the theory that Merovingian could be and ex-one because he repeatedly refers to that fact that he "survived your predecesors" and things like that. But then when I think about it again and factor in Persophone's lines, like she used to know what it was like, refering to the relationship between neo and trinity, and she envied trinity such a thing. Also, they were on floor 101, and the merovingian could manipulate the matrix, like neo, the cake. But maybe this is just because they are one and the same and just happened to choose different paths. The different paths would also coincide with persephone as the wife of hades.

I thought that I was obsessed with the matrix, and I thought that I understood it pretty good, but after reading all of this, I think that I need that learn more before I can understand it all to my satisfaction. The W brothers are genius.

CarolynMay 29, 2003 at 4:24AM

What about the twins, are they out of the picture? They were a lot of fun.

lanceMay 29, 2003 at 9:17AM

transcript of dialog between neo and the architect

The SpoonMay 29, 2003 at 10:22AM

I am a little surprised no-one has picked this up, but the character that Smith possessed was actually named Cain, not Bane(Bain). Sort of puts a more Cain and Able spin on that connection.

Another thing I would like to comment on, there is a lot of talk about Smith not being able to leave the matrix(and therefore that his avatar in the real world implies that the real world is just another simulation), but in M1, we are told that agents can move in and out of any hardware(read human mind) still hardwired to the system. Why is it so hard to believe then that the new and improved Smith has not been able to find a way to do this external to the system and enter a freed human mind?

Just my thoughts, please proceed to rebuke them :-)

The Spoon.

RayneMay 29, 2003 at 11:42AM

My first supposition upon seeing Smith "migrate" to a human "host" is that he's now viral, replicating at will in any suitable carrier. If Smith was more memetic at first, he's now transferred through "infection" to genetic level, embedded. His run-in with Neo may have broken the limitation which kept Smith a veridical virus; he now can transcend and infect both the authentic and veridical worlds.

Someone upthread suggested that Smith might replicate out of control and take over the Matrix...which prompted a recollection from Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel". A disease does not completely kill off all its potential hosts; it stops at a limit of roughly 10% of the population. This group has either acquired some genetic immunity to the disease or the disease has a "prime directive" not to entirely eliminate itself by eliminating all hosts. Smith, if truly viral, couldn't take over the Matrix or Zion.

Nuts, I was done thinking about this stuff and I'm going to have to hash it all over again, now that I'm on the meme/gene/viral transmission train.

zachMay 29, 2003 at 12:33PM

There are some excellent explanations and views right HERE.

zachMay 29, 2003 at 12:45PM

Here is something that make you go to the former link:


"As the Architect reveals, Neo is not the first One, but rather the sixth. Why the sixth? The answer is that Neo's five previous incarnations represent the Five Books of Moses that make up the Old Testament. Neo (representing Christ, and thus the New Testament) differs from his five predecessors in his capacity to love. In the work of Origen of Alexandria and other early Christian writers, it is love ("eros" in Greek) that compels Christ to come down from the heavens to redeem humanity. Furthermore, "neo" means "new"—as in "New Covenant." In Neo, the machines have finally found the iteration of the One who will make the illogical choice of saving Trinity and dooming humanity. [Note to the theology geeks who've been e-mailing me: I know the difference between eros and agape, but both terms are apropos for reasons I'd have to delve into pre-Socratic philosophy to explain.]



This is the Architect's real purpose in giving Neo a choice between two doors. At once all human and all machine, rather than being a device to refine the Matrix into a more perfect simulation of reality, re-found Zion, and thus continue the endless cycle of death and rebirth—as the Architect says he is—the purpose of the One is to be manipulated into destroying all of humanity. However, not having free will themselves, the machines are not able to comprehend it in others—and thus Neo, being also human, is a bit of a wild card. It is Neo's destiny—as was Christ's in Origen's theology—to break the cycle of death and rebirth, and offer humanity a new future. This is shown by the fact that, by the end of the movie, Neo (and also, incidentally, Smith) gain power in the "real world"—which shows that he has power not only over the first—level simulated world of the Matrix, but also the second-level simulation of Zion."

Cool.

Spoon BoyMay 29, 2003 at 1:11PM

Carolyn says:

why was it that after neo exited the left door, the whole place exloded? Did anyone else find that confusing?

I wondered about that. I ended up attribuiting it to adrenaline from Neo, (perhaps unintentionally) manipulating his surroundings with his energy. Similar to the way he made the pavement "ripple" around him immediately prior to launch.

the merovingian...the cake

Devil's Food. :)

The Spoon says:
...the character that Smith possessed was actually named Cain, not Bane(Bain). Sort of puts a more Cain and Able spin on that connection.

Aha, cool. Cain and Abel. Only this time it was "the able" which destroyed Cain.

btw, I tried sending an email to [email protected], but Micro$oft bounced it back telling me there is no such recipient. ;)

RayneMay 29, 2003 at 2:11PM

zach -- that's some really lucid sh*t that Mondschein wrote at corporatemofo.com. One of the best all-around assessments.

Thanks for the link.

steve minutilloMay 29, 2003 at 2:31PM

There's one other 101 reference not yet mentioned: In the scene where Trinity hacks the power station using nmap and a real-life SSH exploit, she resets the root password to

Z1ON0101

Spoon BoyMay 29, 2003 at 2:42PM

steve minutillo says:
There's one other 101 reference not yet mentioned: In the scene where Trinity hacks the power station using nmap and a real-life SSH exploit, she resets the root password to...

Insane. That gives us no less than four references to 101. Why do I think there's @ least five? Maybe six? Ponder on...

ArielMay 29, 2003 at 3:17PM

My less-than-philosophical question:

In the beginning of the film, when Neo wakes from his dream about Trinity's death, he wakes up beside her in bed. Why, then, when they returned to Zion did Neo and Trinity get all "love in an elevator" on each other ... as if they hadn't had the chance to be intimate in ages? Is there an abstinence clause for Neb crewmembers? Neo and Trinity obviously shared a bed on the ship, so why was the return to Zion such a sexual release?

EdMay 29, 2003 at 3:39PM

The guy Smith infects is named Bane. The two "werewolves"--the earlier Matrix agents in the Merovingian's service, one of which Persephone shoots--are named Cain and Abel, however. I think that's in the video game, though to be honest I'm starting to lose track of what I've heard where.

CarolynMay 29, 2003 at 4:09PM

How about...

Why is it that neo trusts the architect?

I think that the architect makes it seem like there is no real world, that everything is a matrix, but that is just repeating what other people have said so, refer to above threads. I agree that it would suck if the Ws ended it clichely esspecially since the movie are so outstandingly original.

I watched for the merovingian in the trailer at the end of the credits, but didn't see him. I still think that he will play a pivotal role in the third.

I am going to go see it again.

DanielMay 29, 2003 at 5:28PM

Carolyn says:

why was it that after neo exited the left door, the whole place exloded? Did anyone else find that confusing?


All the doors in the building were wired to explode, remember? That was why they needed to kill the power first. Dropping the power grid for a short time allowed them to enter. Presumably it came back up while Neo was inside. As soon as he opened the door back that lead back into the Matrix, the bomb went off.

Yep, Neo's fast alright.

NotAnyRonMay 29, 2003 at 6:07PM

You can check out my reviews on Stinky Cinema. The original Matrix is here and the Matrix Reloaded is here.

NotAnyRonMay 29, 2003 at 6:09PM

Broken link in the last post: The Matrix Reloaded is here.

mattMay 29, 2003 at 6:30PM

If the "apartment 110" theory is correct, and the 3rd movie ends where the first began (albeit at the next iteration of the matrix), why did the directors end episode 2 with "to be concluded" rather than the more traditional "to be continued"?

IMO, the nested-realities theory will make for a very unsatisfying (not to mention inconclusive) conclusion.

But, fans of that approach are advised to read Jack L. Chalker's "Wonderland Gambit" trilogy. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it here. I'm sure the W brothers have read it; too many of the concepts in The Matrix are similar. In fact, Chalker had this to say, in Aug. '99:

"Been getting some mail about the motion picture The Matrix noting just how many elements of it were lifted almost verbatim from The Wonderland Gambit. It's true, and they stole them and that's why I got nothing, no credits, no money, from it. Were I in better shape financially it would be worth going after them, but, alas, unless you know a contingency lawyer with Hollywood experience willing to take it on it's just going to have to be another rip-off that Hollywood is famous for. And if they don't like me saying that, then let them sue me!..." source: http://www.jackchalker.com/oldnews.html

Here's the 1st book of the Wonderland trilogy at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345386906

(FWIW, I read all three books in that trilogy and I felt ripped off too. What goes around comes around, eh, Jack?)

Marty MC FlyMay 29, 2003 at 6:50PM

Proofing the loop ending of matrix trilogy...

While I were watching The Matrix Revolutions teaser with slow motion...I realized that straightforward to the end of the teaser there is a train (named LOOP) coming through to screen...I don't think this is coincidence...;)

Joe KaczmarekMay 29, 2003 at 8:28PM

2 things:

Trinity Falling

I noticed this viewing the trailer multiple times before the movie came out, and then noticed it in the movie. I'm curious if anyone else has noticed this and if it is a goof or not. As Trinity is falling, you can see reflections of lights on the building she is falling out of (at the bottom of the screen). However, these reflections appear to be falling at the same rate as she is, while the camera is not falling but panning from right to left. Is this just an optical illusion, or did they goof in rendering this scene?

Mother of the Matrix

Thanks to Lance for posting a link to the script of Neo and the Architect above. Reading I now think I'm even more right that Persephone is the mother of the Matrix. Why? The Architect says that this program was "created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche"... love. Which, Persephone is not only the Greek goddess of love, but she also wants to kiss everyone like they kiss their lover perhaps as a way to further study this aspect of the human psyche.

Spoon BoyMay 29, 2003 at 8:34PM

matt says:
If the "apartment 110" theory is correct, and the 3rd movie ends where the first began (albeit at the next iteration of the matrix), why did the directors end episode 2 with "to be concluded" rather than the more traditional "to be continued"?

I think you may have answered your own question. A "traditional" vanilla ending would seem misplaced in such an extraordinary story, wouldn't it? :)

Marty MC Fly says:
Proofing the loop ending of matrix trilogy...
While I were watching The Matrix Revolutions teaser with slow motion...I realized that straightforward to the end of the teaser there is a train (named LOOP) coming through to screen...I don't think this is coincidence...;)

GREAT SCOTT! ATTA BOY, MARTY! Say hi to your mom for me.

CarolynMay 29, 2003 at 10:03PM

Persephone is not only the Greek goddess of love

Persephone is not the greek goddess of love, that is aphrodite, Persephone is the wife of hades.

I don't think that the 110 theory can be correct. That would only fly if neo picked the right door and decided to restart the program. But he chose that left door...

I read it up there earlier, but someone remind me of the significance of room 303 in the first Matrix please.

I just got back from watching it again and this time I took notes.

1) There were 12 councelors, not 11, I counted twice.

2) The agent whom smith puddings, is seen again during the car chase and during the fight/fall with trinity, can people be unpuddinged?

3) I was watching for 101 references and I found another. During the smith fight the grafiti on the bricks spells out one o one. And while Trinity is dying, her heartrate is 110, not 101.

4) The guy smith puddinged was named Bane.

Do we know the name of the boy that neo saved/didn't save?
Sereph said that the oracle had many enimies, but who are they?
While talking to the oracle, neo is told to go to the source. But then when he is talking to the merovingian, the mero accuses him of not having a "why" to want the keymaker. Why doesn't neo use the "why" he has to get the keymaker?

Also, there is a lotus blossom in front of the Merovingian while he is talking to neo, The lotus symbolizes purity, peace and compassion, as well as fertility, in Buddhism. Kind of ironic don't you think?
What about the Merovingian as a search engine? He says himself that he is a trafficer of information.

The nubmer 12 is repeated mulitiple times, while refering to time, They have 12 minutes left and everything happens at 12 o'clock. Is there anything significant in this?

Also, at the end, neo stops the sentinals, kils them, then they fall. They do not stop themselves.

They also found one, only one survivor, another reference of one?

Spoon BoyMay 29, 2003 at 11:06PM

Carolyn,

Good stuff. Trip out on your item 3.

I don't think that the 110 theory can be correct. That would only fly if neo picked the right door and decided to restart the program. But he chose that left door...

All the other revolutions came out of their Neo's choice of left door also. Hope, the quintessential human delusion, must prevail after all.

Brook says:
Spoon Boy has no life. Looser.

Probably just jealous because I can make silverware float in the air. And yes, quite loose I hang.

EdMay 30, 2003 at 1:16AM

Well, 12--the number of signs of the zodiac--is about the most significant number of mythology (along with 7, the number of heavenly bodies visible to the naked eye). There could be a few other astrological signifiers floating around here--the twins as Gemini, Jesus' ties to Pisces--but other than 12 being a big old holy number, one often associated with cycles, I'm not sure there's a whole lot to it.

Astrological significance may be a very buried part of the Matrix mythology, though. For instance, Neo is born around 2150-2170, which is exactly one zodiacal year after Jesus was crucified. Then the Oracle tells the future, the ostensible purpose of most astrology. Any other correlations, or are these just coincidences?

If Neo can be linked to Saturn, Aquarius, or the number 1080, then it'll be clear the Brothers Wachowski are just as versed in astrology as they seem to be in everything else.

CarolynMay 30, 2003 at 2:23AM

wow

Need to watch Revolutions pleeaseeMay 30, 2003 at 4:22AM

The matrix within the matrix theory would be the biggest dissapointment. I mean, who hasn't seen low budget matrix aka The 13th floor. That is what happens, there is a virtual world inside the virtual world. I don't think WB would spend so much money and such a great original plot on such a bad conclusion. Besides, if there in fact was a Matrix within the Matrix Neo would see Zion/Zionetes/Sentinels in code and agents could all get out (after all they are sentinel programs that can move in and out of every software and thus in and out everyone in the matrix and the matrix within the matrix if it does exist ).

Another interesting thing is that the whole Zion council seems to be in on it with the machines. Counsel Hammar or whatever his name was calls Neo "only human", the same as the agents in the matrix. Besides he insists on how machines depend on humans and viceversa, which the Architect then points out too by telling him that he can rebuild Zion by saving the matrix or save trin at the cost of losing Zion and every human in the matrix . Then, they send 2 more ships to help tha Neb, which then casually is the number they need. Council Hammar also says more machine like phrases:
"that's the problem with people, they don't care how it works as long as it works"
and "I don't fully understand this world" but he insists that it has a purpose. He also says he does not understand Neo (the anomaly) and wish they do before it is too late (too late for the machines maybe, the matrix?)

In regard to Neo's powers outside the Matrix it can't be because of Smith's attempt to copy himself into him, because this would mean Morpheus, who suffered the same thing, would have this powers too.

Another interesting thing here is Merovingio. His wife says he was like "Neo" once and that he had saved some agents from past versions of the matrix. Merovingio says he has survived Neo's predecessors. Could it be that this Mervingio is a past version of The One living in exile like the others? Maybe this is why he can describe the code of the blonde woman who eats the cake so good, because he sees the code too (and says: you see it neo, don't you). Maybe he is tired of the whole cycle and that is why he does not want to give up the keymaker and help Neo save the matrix.

Anyways, like they say... we can think on 1,000,000 different possibilities, yet the most possible to be true are the other millions we haven't thought about.

I think the 101 theory is good but it is just too much. Maybe the Wachowski Brothers don't even know what binary code is.

Agent Smith also says at the beginning: "everything is happening like before except for (this, us?)". This means there is something different in comparison to the other 5 other ones and matrix versions. Trinity is one, Smith is two and the choice neo takes makes three. In the Revolutions trailer we can hear the Oracle telling Neo he must stop Smith or if not that could be the end of everything. Smith has a bigger role yet to play in the plot, besides being just the bad guy. He also says to Neo at the white corridor he has a purpose and neo and neo doesn't know it. He says it because he delays them from entering the door before they could and thus saves them from dying.

how did tank diedMay 30, 2003 at 4:56AM

maybe the council was the last anomaly, that is why he says what he says. Mabe his council was the people he chose to rebuild the matrix that is why the council is so aware of the dangers of the attack and of the importance of saving the Neb.

by the way... how did tank died???????

unpluggggggggMay 30, 2003 at 4:58AM

it's all real!!! wake up....the matrix has you

matthewMay 30, 2003 at 7:31AM

Persephone said Merovingio was different "when we first came here". came here from where? trinity and morpheus even share a look on that line.

Nathan PitmanMay 30, 2003 at 8:36AM

Did anyone else think that the scene where the ship is guided back to zion and you see the 'air traffic control' staff at work was:

1 - Very Minority Report esque...?
2 - Totally at odds in visual 'style' to the rest of the film...?

How come they had floaty touchscreens, and yet the ships have LCDs and bog standard tatty looking keyboards.... :?

Hmm...

Spoon BoyMay 30, 2003 at 10:02AM

Nathan Pitman says:
Did anyone else think that the scene where the ship is guided back to zion and you see the 'air traffic control' staff at work was:

1 - Very Minority Report esque...?
2 - Totally at odds in visual 'style' to the rest of the film...?

How come they had floaty touchscreens, and yet the ships have LCDs and bog standard tatty looking keyboards.... :?

"Zion Control", which is the white "Minority Report" room you speak of, exists in the Zion mainframe and is not part of the same "real world" that the Neb resides. Instead, the Zion Control staff must enter a virtual reality program, much like the "loading program" from the first film where Neo did all his training. This is for security purposes, so that the "physical" machines can't destroy the mainframe from the outside world. They must do so *from within* the Matrix.

Next time you watch it, notice the brief shot immediately prior to the "Minority Report" scene. You'll see the two traffic controllers (middle aged white woman and black man) asleep in their Matrix dental chairs.

Keith AMay 30, 2003 at 12:48PM

It always perpelexes me how people see only the Christian symbolism in this movie and fail to see the Marxist symbolism. The Matrix is capitalism. The program of the Matrix is our False Conciousness. The batteries are the workers. It goes on an on. The Christian symbolism is there, but more important is the Marxist symbolism.

Spoon BoyMay 30, 2003 at 2:31PM

Matrix's: an anagram of Marxist.

adamMay 30, 2003 at 3:33PM

The Matrix is capitalism. The program of the Matrix is our False Conciousness. The batteries are the workers. It goes on an on.

Interesting Keith, I’ll admit my ignorance of Marxism here, so would you mind expanding on how the Matrix is symbolic of capitalism? Based on your other references that the “batteries are workers”, and the “program is false consciousness”, wouldn’t this conclude that the free market economy is completely driven by Marxist theories rather than the “invisible hand” of supply and demand? Is this a fundamental precept of Marxist thought?

DaveMay 30, 2003 at 5:00PM

No one has spotted this yet (and I have to credit it to a friend, Josh) but the following is REALLY cool:

Rewatch The Matrix. After Neo is caught by the agents, he's taken into an interrogation room somewhere. The shot right before the camera moves into the room they're in is one of many, many video displays. Before Revolutions, I thought that was the vantage point of the security room of the police station. Now I know, THIS IS THE ARCHITECT'S ROOM. Watch it, there is no mistaking it. (Afterall, a security room would never show the same picture on every screen.)

I don't quite know where to take this, but it certainly shows how thoughtfully these films have been constructed. It also shows how pre-ordained The One's life is, as The Architect has been watching him before even he knew he was The One.

Juan Fernando CarpioMay 30, 2003 at 7:15PM

That the Matrix is capitalism is just plain ridiculous and shows ignorance of economic theory and facts.

On the contrary, if you want to apply the movie´s concepts to social theory, the Matrix would be the State, we taxpayers are the batteries, and the establishment, the political class, lives off our backs.

Free people create, companies create, we are the Atlas of the world, sustaining the parasites. Forget Marx and his labor theory (which by the way, he took from Adam Smith, a protomarxian economist) and read Franz Oppenheimer on the State. He divides people into two possible occupations: producers and parasites (he is an anarcoleftist, but really lucid). So, the Matrix is the delusional need for politics in our lives and we all need to reawaken to that fact. (Thomas Jefferson must be reloaded).

AMYMay 31, 2003 at 5:01AM

Ah Theo!!! Thank you~~

Theo says:
Another one to watch out for: Taking the Red Pill: Science, Philosophy and Religion in The Matrix. Next month witnesses the publication of The Gospel Reloaded: Exploring Spirituality and Faith in The Matrix; I remain doubtful about this one--Christians cling to Neo as if he were their very own, when he belongs to the pantheon of traditions from which W brothers culled material.

Check it out: http://killingthebuddha.com/

I just have to say that the Christians NEED TO LET GO OF THE SAVIOR....this whole movie is about rejecting the dominant paradigm and trying to cull out the real BONES of the matter--when it comes to religion--there is CLEARLY an understanding that most religions share a very SIMILAR COSMOLOGY and Neo would probably have to be the Buddha before Christ...LEARN YOUR CULTURES people--this has EASTERN RELIGION written all over it.

Of course it has tons! of very christian references but that is specifically because of the idea that living within and completely accepting any paradigm is simply inhuman. i don't know...something for you to consider...i just wanted to throw that out there...like my favorite Religion teacher always said--

YOU WON'T BE FREE UNTIL YOU ACCEPT THAT NO ONE IS DRIVING THE CAR!!!!

amyMay 31, 2003 at 5:14AM

ANOTHER THOUGHT--WHILE I AM RANTING....

if anyone checks the movie out in the next couple of days--tell me how many people sitting on the council are black--because there sure are a lot of black folks in Zion...i hadn't noticed until parapesa pointed it out...

more importantly though...i was shocked at the way black folks were portrayed in this movie--IT WAS HORRIBLE...i really like the matrix, but the more i think about it, the more i realize that the issue of race in this movie is far from negligible...

what keyed me in was when Link came home to his wife (i assume) and said "Where's my puss-" only to be interrupted by the kids. Who in the hell greets their wife that way?

It completely reinforces a hypersexualized black stereoptype

As does the relationship between Morpheus-Niobe (nice--is that an AFRICAN name)-and the Defense Minister (what's his name?): We see obvious sexual tension play out right away--showing that neither man can focus fully on his job because of his inability to be rational and Niobe is just a pawn that they are fighting over.

So Morpheus and Niobe run ships--don't we always send the black man to the front lines first to die?

I won't even comment on the animal like albino twins--i think"R" covered that.

And then the Oracle--or Mammy--or if you wan't just call her Aunt Jemima--

sure she is wise--but it's wisdom based on intuition and openly scoffed at by THE ARCHITECT (PLEASE QUIT COMPARING HIM TO GOD).

i dont know--I think we live in a society with major problems when the movie has been out this long and no major stink has been raised about any of this...especailly that where's my pussy comment!

UlicusMay 31, 2003 at 8:18AM

I've really, really enjoyed reading this thread, its been great. I have to say Kudos to most of you, esp. with the binary thing. :)

Right anyway, I've found something interesting about Neo being the '6th' one (though 5 in binary)

In biblical terms-

"SIX - Denotes the human number. Man was created on the sixth day; and this first occurrence of the number makes it (and all multiples of it) the hall-mark of all connected with man."

Well, I believe the meaning of this is obvious- Neo is far more human than his predessors in that he feels overwhelming love for one person. The others took a rationalised 'machine like' choice in the right door (symbolism of right and left polically?) whilst Neo made his choice based through irrational and overwhelming love for a person, far more human than the last 5 'ones'. (Though I believe that they were all human, not programs- not that I can't see the latter being a possibility)

As for the number 12 someone wanted to know its significance- Again, biblically-

"TWELVE - Denotes Governmental perfection. It is the number or factor of all numbers connected with government: whether by Tribes or Apostles, or in measurements of time, or in things which have to do with government in the heavens and the earth."

Well that fits in nicely with the Architects rant about being bound by the parimeters of perfection nicely doesn't it? As well as the fact that the Matrix represents an order not too disimilar of a tyranical government.

I've seen quite a large amount of people 'bashing'(though not in an evil way) Christians over their clinging to Neo as 'their very own'. However, though I am firmly agnostic myself, not seeing Neo as an allegory for Jesus or the literal second coming is rather foolish and almost as if you are looking the other way, "How dare they include anything to do with Christianity in a movie, any other religions fine, but we hate Christianity". Sure, he also has elements of the Buddha's reaching of enlightenment, but his primary link is that with Jesus.

Thomas Anderson for a start literally means "Twin Son of Man".

This is not to say that I diregard all the other references to other cultures, religions and ideas. Hell no, I love the fact that the Wachowskis have managed to merge them all into a harmonious whole since I am very, very fond of religion as a form of mythology, unfortunatly I'm too much of a doubting Thomas (another Neo link, what with his inital doubts about his abilities) to actually have the conviction to follow a religion.

As for the Bane/Smith cutting himself I have to disagree with everyone on this. People have said its because he enjoys inflicting pain on a human, other people have said its because he likes to feel emotion. Far from it. Can anyone remember how appalled Smith was by humanity in the first Matrix film? How he was always disgusted with them and classified them as a virus? I think that he's cutting himself because he is disgusted with having to be inside a human body, its driving him insane because now he really has been 'infected' in a way. (I also like the irony of Smith classing the humans as a virus, only to become one himself)

Anyway, having seen this film two times I love it to bits. And sorry, but all those people complaining about the obviousness of the computer generated Neo, PURRRR-LEASEEEE. I mean, the only REALLY REALLY obvious one was when he leapt in the air and span around with his pole (oops, that came out wrong) during the Smith fight. And that was just becaue the clothes looked really dodgy.

(I'm glad that the 'Superman Pose from Action comics' was picked up on by other people, that was funny)

Well, I ranted a bit so sorry about that.

Ciao. I'll be reading you all later.

Ulicus.

Corey CohenMay 31, 2003 at 2:47PM

On Amy's rant about black stereotyping:
If that was a joke, sorry for posting this
That has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Just stop it. Please. I have no need to elaborate further.

RayneMay 31, 2003 at 3:09PM

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: [1]bane
Pronunciation: 'bAn
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bana; akin to Old High German bano death
Date: before 12th century
1 a : obsolete : KILLER, SLAYER b : POISON c : DEATH, DESTRUCTION d : WOE
2 : a source of harm or ruin : CURSE ?

A little obvious, but then who exactly will be the ultimate target of Bane?

amyMay 31, 2003 at 6:39PM

Corey--i am not sure how they could have been misconstrued as a joke and i am fairly positive that i am not the only one that feels this way--and I won't stop--Hollywood is one of the most racist industries in this country. The banal acceptance of such racism by mainstream americans doesn't make it okay.

amyMay 31, 2003 at 6:39PM

Corey--i am not sure how they could have been misconstrued as a joke and i am fairly positive that i am not the only one that feels this way--and I won't stop--Hollywood is one of the most racist industries in this country. The banal acceptance of such racism by mainstream americans doesn't make it okay.

Spoon BoyMay 31, 2003 at 8:31PM

More on six:

During the fight between Neo and Merovingian's thugs, a shot depicts a guy falling backwards through the railing and onto the marble floor. The floor has a design of a six-pointed star containing a hexagon. It also has three human figures within the hex. Not sure if this is a classic piece of art; if you know, please enlighten us.

Carolyn,

I checked out the courtyard scene w/ the Oracle leading up to the Neo vs. 101 Smiths fight. Indeed, one wall has the word "ONE" spray painted on it, rotated counter-clockwise 90 degrees. A second wall has the words "ONEONE". Not "One-o-one", but I suppose one could argue that it means the same thing, phrased differently. "One (hundred) one". etc. A third wall has "D-MAN", if anybody cares to search for relevance in that.

amy says:

Niobe (nice--is that an AFRICAN name)

No, it's from Greek mythology. Maybe you should try looking it up next time before shooting your mouth off.

theJanMay 31, 2003 at 11:46PM

Amy says:
Corey--i am not sure how they could have been misconstrued as a joke and i am fairly positive that i am not the only one that feels this way--and I won't stop--Hollywood is one of the most racist industries in this country. The banal acceptance of such racism by mainstream americans doesn't make it okay.

Sorry Amy, but I think you're misguided.
Sure Hollywood may have a problem with this, but not in this movie. Morpheus an Niobe are both very strong central characters. Leaders in fact. What the hell is wrong with that?? If all the main characters were white I'm sure you'd have a problem with that too. And no, I don't think anybody's portrayed as "oversexed" in the movie. Yeah, I thought Link's greeting to his wife was strange and rather offensive, but what of it? If they want to portray him as a jerk than so what?

I'm sorry but I think you're way out of line on this one. When the rest of us are trying to improve race relations and be accepting and appreciative of each other, it's people like you who fan the flames. I get so tired of the media sensationalizing things, leading us to believe that "everybody" or "a great number of people" subscribe to some atrocious behavior being perpetrated by a few.

Actually I thought it was cool that they had such a great racial mix in this movie. That's a GOOD thing! I think you're just paranoid about it and would find fault no matter how they did it. Yes, we still have some work to do as far as race relations in the US go, especially in Hollywood. I agree with you there. But as far as this movie goes, you're way off base. If you are trying to improve racial harmony in this country, turn around, because with this approach you only make it worse.

KutasthaJun 01, 2003 at 3:51AM

Yeah, I thought Link's greeting to his wife was strange and rather offensive, but what of it? If they want to portray him as a jerk than so what?

Well, I think if you had been away from your wife for as long as he was, then you would probably be thinking the same thing. Maybe you wouldn't express it that way, but surely enough, it would be on your mind.

I think Link is a vital character to M2, because he allows us to live through him, especially when he gets excited in the movie. He reminds us that we are still human, that we still have desires and pleasures of our own. I hope we see more of Link in M3.

KutasthaJun 01, 2003 at 3:55AM

What was up with that guy being lead away when Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity were approaching the table The Merovingian was sitting at?

If you watch closely, there is a regular looking guy being lead away by someone, probably one of The Merovingian's thugs, off to the left.

Did anyone pick up on this? Because, Neo looks right at that guy.

Does anyone want to speculate who that guy might or might not be?

Spoon BoyJun 01, 2003 at 4:21AM

Brian says:
I'm not convinced The Architect is talking about the Oracle. When Neo says, "The Oracle," The Architect's "Please" is almost dismissive ... in the sense of "as if" ... is it possible he was saying "Oh please, not a chance, now, back to what I was talking about" -- and he wasn't talking about the Oracle, but Persephone?

I just saw this again and must concur. There's definitely a "rolling of the eyes give me a break you've gotta be kidding me I wouldn't give that crazy woman the time of day" vibe contained in the Architect's "Please." I hadn't caught the tone in his delivery the first time around, and it's not entirely clear by simply reading the transcript.

The Architect says:

"As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly
99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even
if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level."

Unless this "she" is a character we haven't met yet, Persephone would be the obvious female character he's referring to here. I don't think we have enough info to know right now. I need to remind myself that the story's not over yet. :)

I admit this movie has put me into extra-super maximum hyperanalytical mode, but I couldn't help but noticing that the Architect reminds me of a cross between Kentucky Fried Chicken's Colonel Sanders and Clue's Colonel Mustard. I mean really, when you get right down to it, the dude looks like a Colonel.

The geekier may already know what I'm getting @ here. For those with lives:

kernel: The essential center of a computer operating system that provides the basic services for all other parts.

UlicusJun 01, 2003 at 7:20AM

I don't think its Persephone who is the 'mother' of the Matrix, I'm pretty sure its the Oracle. The Architect was not dismissive of the Oracle, he was dissmissive of that title.

"The Oracle?"

"Please..." He said it in such a way that sounded, "Oh yeah, like shes an oracle psch dont insult your own intelligence."

Then again, I could be wrong.

KutasthaJun 01, 2003 at 10:35AM

If anyone has played the video game, Enter the Matrix, there is a scene where The Oracle is telling Ghost about the "special child" having two parent programs that sold the deletion code of The Oracle's shell to The Merovingian. She said the two parent programs did it to save their "special child" and did it out of love.

The "special child" is Neo.

Now, who are these two parent programs? Have we seen these parent programs in the movies yet? Will these parent programs be revealed in The Matrix: Revolutions? Does anyone have a guess of who these two parent programs might be?

Here is another question. Why in the world (real world or matrix!) would The Merovingian want the deletion codes for The Oracle's shell? I know why in real life, because they had to replace the actress due to her death. But, why would they do it in a movie? The Brothers had to work this into the plot and make it look good, because it is quite obvious there is a new actress playing The Oracle.

theJanJun 01, 2003 at 12:02PM

Ulicus says:
I don't think its Persephone who is the 'mother' of the Matrix, I'm pretty sure its the Oracle. The Architect was not dismissive of the Oracle, he was dissmissive of that title.

Exactly! That's the same impression I got, and I was just about to post the same thing. I think the Oracle is the obvious choice, but then that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Maybe it's a character we haven't seen before, but I don't think it's Persephone, for the reasons I stated (at length) in an earlier post.

Kutastha says:
If anyone has played the video game, Enter the Matrix, there is a scene where The Oracle is telling Ghost about the "special child" having two parent programs that sold the deletion code of The Oracle's shell to The Merovingian. She said the two parent programs did it to save their "special child" and did it out of love.

The "special child" is Neo.

Are you sure it's Neo? Do they say that definitively? That opens up a whole nother can 'o worms. If Neo's human, were his parents "free"? Were they able to interact in both the "real" and Matrix (programmed) worlds? And why wouldn't they free their son? If they're just programs then why would they adopt a human (pod-person-based) program? Because they were obviously aware of the computerized nature of their world. Does that say Neo's a program "just like the rest of everything"??

I still think that when the Architect said that Neo was irrecovably human, he meant literally. Hmmm... I would say the machines view the humans as simply biological machines (albeit flawed by this origin), able (obviously) to be programmed, just like any mechanically based machine. Therefore, the machines (opposed to the humans) make little distinction between the two. That would explain some things.

The whole neo parent thing sends my brain into the spin cycle! :-)

One other thing, can anybody tell me where to get a copy of Animatrix?

CoreyJun 01, 2003 at 12:51PM

theJan says:
Ulicus says:
I don't think its Persephone who is the 'mother' of the Matrix, I'm pretty sure its the Oracle. The Architect was not dismissive of the Oracle, he was dissmissive of that title.

Exactly! That's the same impression I got, and I was just about to post the same thing. I think the Oracle is the obvious choice, but then that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Maybe it's a character we haven't seen before, but I don't think it's Persephone, for the reasons I stated (at length) in an earlier post.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I definitely think the Architect was dismissing the title of Oracle, not the Oracle herself. And as for Persephone as the mother of the matrix, I just don't see it. I just think the oracle makes more sense.

Another thing, and maybe I'm contradicting myself here, but if the Oracle is the mother of the matrix, why would she want to help Neo? However, Persephone helped him also, so that doesn't make sense either. It all leads back to who Neo can and can't trust.

Eduardo ArcosJun 01, 2003 at 12:53PM

In 4 / 5 hours I think i have read all of the comments in this post. For me Matrix Reloaded is as good as Matrix I.

As lots of people has pointed out, Matrix Reloaded is not a sequel, it is a continuation. And as also people pointed out before much of the comments and links are really enlightning to understand better every element of the movie.

I have a question maybe someone have noticed it too. It is a very small detail on the Merovingian scene. When Neo, Morpheus and Trinity enters the room filled of people eating. Neo turns his head at some guy who is taken away (lke, arrested...by force) by 2 or 3 people. This is very fast and happens in about 2 or 3 seconds. Considering that the most important elements of the movie are the smallest details...have someone noticed this too? any theories?

KutasthaJun 01, 2003 at 1:36PM

Are you sure it's Neo?

Yes, I'm sure Neo is the "special child". The Oracle doesn't come out and say it like that. But, in the scenes where she is talking to Ghost or Niobe (which are at the same spots in the video game), she is talking about the path of The One, and saying she is preparing Ghost, Niobe and others for this path too. She says the path of The One is paved by the many.

To fully understand the whole story, one must play the videogame too. There are some important details in there, along with a different trailer for Revolutions that isn't being shown in theatres.

I have a question maybe someone have noticed it too. It is a very small detail on the Merovingian scene. When Neo, Morpheus and Trinity enters the room filled of people eating. Neo turns his head at some guy who is taken away (lke, arrested...by force) by 2 or 3 people. This is very fast and happens in about 2 or 3 seconds. Considering that the most important elements of the movie are the smallest details...have someone noticed this too? any theories?

Eduardo,

Yes, I noticed this too. If you read above some, you will see that I mentioned this too. I'm curious to know who this man is. They don't really allude to who he is in the videogame, nor in anything else that I know of.

KutasthaJun 01, 2003 at 1:36PM

Are you sure it's Neo?

Yes, I'm sure Neo is the "special child". The Oracle doesn't come out and say it like that. But, in the scenes where she is talking to Ghost or Niobe (which are at the same spots in the video game), she is talking about the path of The One, and saying she is preparing Ghost, Niobe and others for this path too. She says the path of The One is paved by the many.

To fully understand the whole story, one must play the videogame too. There are some important details in there, along with a different trailer for Revolutions that isn't being shown in theatres.

I have a question maybe someone have noticed it too. It is a very small detail on the Merovingian scene. When Neo, Morpheus and Trinity enters the room filled of people eating. Neo turns his head at some guy who is taken away (lke, arrested...by force) by 2 or 3 people. This is very fast and happens in about 2 or 3 seconds. Considering that the most important elements of the movie are the smallest details...have someone noticed this too? any theories?

Eduardo,

Yes, I noticed this too. If you read above some, you will see that I mentioned this too. I'm curious to know who this man is. They don't really allude to who he is in the videogame, nor in anything else that I know of.

Spoon BoyJun 01, 2003 at 2:22PM

Eduardo says:

I have a question maybe someone have noticed it too. It is a very small detail on the Merovingian scene. When Neo, Morpheus and Trinity enters the room filled of people eating. Neo turns his head at some guy who is taken away (lke, arrested...by force) by 2 or 3 people. This is very fast and happens in about 2 or 3 seconds. Considering that the most important elements of the movie are the smallest details...have someone noticed this too? any theories?

The guy you speak of is actually being escorted by one bald bouncer. Considering that Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus were also escorted to the elevator in similar fashion after speaking with the Merovingian, it seems that this would be normal for any visitor who's time is up. The guy being escorted away was probably the Merovingian's previous appointment.

There could be more to it than that. For now, it doesn't seem much more than a way to convey the Merovingian's importance and jammed schedule. There's always been a long line of people hoping to cut a deal with the devil.

link_a_likeJun 01, 2003 at 6:25PM

i dont know why ppl are so screwed reloaded is a peice of art thats 2 big for your little minds if you b*tch and moan about pole slingging cgi neo and zion wet/dry hump sessions you dont deserve 2 watch it the methaphores and story lying under are top notch you have 2 take all three movies, animation shorts and video game to get the "story" the 2nd movie is more about how things work in the story not the story it self humans programs what the ones job is but whats funny is that conversation neo had with the Architect about control i had 2 look at the seen about 30 times before things started to sink in ,i have the dvd, he had a pissed way about him like smith in the first movie they where made 2 do a job but they couldent do it perfectly he couldent make a "perfect matrix" he needed help from a nother program 2 do his job and still couldent do it perfect... and every once and a wile he has 2 explain his faluts to the "one" so he can give them the choice but i liked how the matrix corrected itself as neo bugged out we saw this my looking onto a new screen this happend a few times as neo made his choice the Architect explained neo's reaction on a chemical level and trying 2 play it agenst him but would the 3rd movie be any good if he choose the other door ?? nope becasue it would just be a prequill in the infiyte loop of the matrix ..... i think there is only one matrix that works and there have been 6 other "ones" but there have been alot more anomyls that dident make right choices and the matrix has been going from the start to the finish of man kind so neo is not jesus hes just another "one" but now a days walking on water and turning rocks 2 bread dosent free minds as easy

link_a_likeJun 01, 2003 at 6:38PM

well neos 101 and trinitys 303 =404 but 404=8 wich is a sing of infinity???? maby nothing gotta asn andy j/k

link_a_likeJun 01, 2003 at 7:08PM

i know my 2 cent dosent count but i think she smith phreaked bane's mental state and made a copy of himself bane was over writed with smith so when we see bane its smith in zion and he is still smith he is still a program but now has a human body he still hates neo and loves his robots i think the sentanals are connected to toe main frame just like him and he took them over and destroyed all those ships but shice hes human there are bugs and thats why he is in the coma with neo i dont tink he took any of neo's powers... i think neo switched some values in his code and crossed there lines some how like a ping wich gives him neos place in the matrix all the time thats how he opend the door and found neo and the keymaker in the hall but maby not, the hallway is not in the matrix so mt guess is shit 2 fan but hey i still hope neo talks smith into relly beigh free and he truns into a lex luther type arch enimey in both worlds.... but hey

link_a_likeJun 02, 2003 at 12:48AM

maby the oricle knows of all the 5 neos and this one also and since she lived through all this before she seems 2 know the future even tho to her its deja vu remember the plant breaking and how it would blow his mind if he knew how??? since she knew he thought he wasent the won and she needed him 2 save morpheouse she couldent let that info out she knows all her questions awnsers but since neo isent a program as far as i know she cannot predict his choices and if she told him he was the one and hes not the first and he wont be the last the movie whould have went 2 shyt and zion wouldent have as many problems!

super lostJun 02, 2003 at 2:31AM

im glad the wb got 2 use link and zelda's names in the movie from a good nintendo game the legend of zelda but am i the only one that wonders about the lunar eclips that happend on opening night 5 15 ??

ChrisJun 02, 2003 at 2:34AM

I just realized something after seeing both of them tonight again. In M1, after the blue/red pill scene, they go to the next room with the crew that is set to bring him out of the matrix. The mirror morphs into the liquid. This liquid is similar to the black stuff that Smith copies himself with. When it climbs up his arm, things seem to be getting out of hand and Trinity says "Its replicating!". Did that have any meaning in the first movie?

parapesaJun 02, 2003 at 6:00AM

is there a pc or mac version of the matrix game?

PJJun 02, 2003 at 6:18AM

I thought the movie almost lived up to the hype.

If they nixed the rave scene, and maybe one or two of the mind numbingly slow fight scenes in the beginning, the whole movie would have flowed better.

Use the force Neo.

Brisvegas1Jun 02, 2003 at 6:22AM

Some thoughts and observations:

Baine/Smith is not just cutting his hand - he is cutting new lines into his palm - for those who believe in that sort of thing - new destiny lines.... he is literally carving out a new destiny for himself. (Remember - these movies are all about choice and free will - you should be expecting to see these symbols repeatedly)

In the animatrix - when the kid commits suicide - those still in the matrix get to bury his body... he awakened himself (this is different to the movies where you see the bodies disappear from the matrix into the real world) but look at it the other way.... when the real world consciousness goes into the matrix - the unconscious bodies are left behind, largely inert. Are you really arguing that both Bayne/Smith and Neo just happen to both be unconscious... that there is nothing more to it...? Come on - obviously neo is the .1% of .1% who has realised the illusion of first the matrix and then of Zion and has now rejected them both for the real world...thus leaving things open for a whole movie about the true fate of humans and machine.

Smith is the virus not neo - remember Smith's speech from the first flick - how humans are like a virus - that is what he has taken from his connection with neo. And from reloaded, Smith's comment to himself "well, not exactly like before..." This means that what has happened to smith hasn't happened in the previous versions of the matrix... Just like what neo does at the end of the movie hasn't happened before... That's why revolutions is the blank slate... anything goes, no more prophecy, no more visions of the future. We are in the real world now baby!

If Neo is finally "awake" would he die if the matrix crashed? I think not... therefore does the possibility exist that he can wake everyone up to the real, real world and in so doing, save them?

Look - just because we are told that humans are batteries - doesn't mean that they actually are. Other possibilities have been suggested, for example that they are a giant distributed, parallel processing, organic computer... a meta-brain running presumably for the convenience of the AI to get a massive score on SETI@Home... I think something like dark city is more likely... that the matrix is really there so the AI can conduct experiments into the nature of humanity - in particular free will and choice. I'm guessing that it is an experiment designed to produce "the one" that can then be integrated back into the source for use by the AI to give itself... free will... or something like that. Agent smith merges with neo... and gets something llke that.... a freedom of sorts. Maybe he did it too early though, got an early code revision, before neo had truly realised he was the one.

The Oracle is the mother, not Persephone - It is far more likely that Persephone is an early version of Trinity... that's why she is jealous, Merovingian was an early Neo, but like the architect said, he has a "general love for humanity"... including in this case the blonde, cake eating woman. Persephone has never known the "true love" that exists between Neo and Trinity.

Programmers are now playing with genetic algorithms that grow and develop as solutions to a particular set of problems... the bad/inefficient solutions get weeded out and the good ones go on to be the basis of future solutions. Now although the programmer created the program, designed it so to speak, in terms of the rules and constraint placed up the initial specifications of the system... but the resulting code is not written, or in many cases, even understood by the programmer. Neo is not so much a "program" as the result of an experiment in controlled evolution, a special human whose brain and consciousness has been shaped by a series of events etc etc.

Remember - it is all statistics... you don't need 250 000 in Zion to produce the one... because the one before our current neo failed in 72 hours.

Now it doesn't mater that the W. brothers have revealed Zion to be another matrix because Revolutions is in November... and it will be in the real world.

Three times now, twice in "the matrix" and now once more in "reloaded" there has been a "miraculous" avoidance of death by neo (cipher pulling his plug, the squids getting EMP'd just before they laser slice and dice him, and now in reloaded - where the squids behave just like the bullets in the matrix) These are not subtle hints folks... these miraculous saves can only occur because neo is "the one" and the one can not be killed - WHILE HE IS IN THE MATRIX - it is going to be a whole new kettle of fish in the next movie where neo is in the real world and can be harmed... which will be great - back to the intimate, dirty, bloody fights of the first movie. Neo still knows hacking, still knows kung fu - and he will have to use those skills with his real body in the real world, quite possibly with his friends that he will wake up.

The video screens in the architect scene show scenes of neo in the real world... how does the matrix have access to this information if Zion is not part of the matrix?

biscuitJun 02, 2003 at 8:48AM

I've read the thread, and haven't seen this suggestion put forward anywhere (quote from the transcript of the Architect convo:)

" If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."

The debate's about whether he's referring to the Oracle or not. Considering M1's allusions to gnosticism, the father of the matrix would be a malevolent god, analogous to, say, Hades? In greek mythology, Persephone is the wife of Hades. So if the Architect's the father, his wife (Persephone) would be the mother. Possibly.

Just MHO, since I'm not really terribly up on my mythology :)

biscuitJun 02, 2003 at 9:10AM

And, while I think on: In M1, when Neo is being 'taught' matial arts etc by Tank, Morpheus approaches to see how it's going. Tank's reply (quoted from memory, but close enough):

"ten hours straight. He's like a machine."

Relevant?

Keith AJun 02, 2003 at 10:50AM

That the Matrix is capitalism is just plain ridiculous and shows ignorance of economic theory and facts.

On the contrary, if you want to apply the movie´s concepts to social theory, the Matrix would be the State, we taxpayers are the batteries, and the establishment, the political class, lives off our backs.

Free people create, companies create, we are the Atlas of the world, sustaining the parasites. Forget Marx and his labor theory (which by the way, he took from Adam Smith, a protomarxian economist)

I find this an interesting statement. Now, I hate to get all "Good Will Hunting" on you. But, yeah, I read the Wealth of Nations. And, no, Marx did not take the labor theory of value from Smith. Rather, a strong argument could be made that Marx was building upon the ideas of David Ricardo. It was Ricardo, not Smith (or Marx), who first talked about value as the amount of labor embodied in a good. Of course, as it turns out, all three were wrong.

That being said, I would point out that the State is merely an instrument of the Capitalist System. And, taxpayers are nothing if not workers. You must work to earn something in order to be taxed upon those earnings.

Curiously, a Marxist interpretation of the Matrix is not at all at odds with the religious interpretation. I would argue that the social relations (that is to say, relationships based on community and equality) in Marx's ideal society would not look very much different than the social relations in an ideal Christian society. That is something that will really bend your noodle.

Most people do not want to see what the Matrix is really about. Instead, most people are like Cypher. When they start to see what the Matrix is about....when they see what Capitalism is about...they plead to have their false consciousness reinstated. They do not want to know what reality is. Reality is too painful. They would rather go back into their fake world with their Wal-marts, their Malls, their SUV's, their Play Stations, and their 35 different channels of American Gladiator. You have a blue pill waiting for you.

OwenJun 02, 2003 at 11:12AM

"There is no spoon," says the boy in The Matrix while inside the Matrix. A creased and battered spoon is passed to Neo in The Matrix Reloaded when outside the Matrix. If the spoon was manipulated by the boy within the Matrix, thereby showing his power to influence the Matrix, how come the spoon given to Neo outside the Matrix is so worn? Has the boy been bending that spoon in the real world? Or is it simply an emblem of that shared past, a token of good luck for the coming mission?

The sex between Trinity and Neo has to have more significance than moving along the plot of The Matrix Reloaded. The love between them has saved their lives several times so far. What better expression of human love is there than a new child? Trinity has to be pregnant in the next film (isn't Carrie Anne Moss pregnant right now?), with all the consequences that we can imagine. Perhaps that child, like a seventh son of a seventh son or something, will be the One that breaks the Matrix? Or is that just too Star Wars?

I wish there had been a moment as effective in The Matrix Reloaded as The Matrix's deja vu cat. That's cinematic genius. I believe that while these films will be remembered as cutting edge exercises in the cinematographically possible, the 'philosophical debate' they inspire will be forgotten. There are many films much better than The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded, that explore the nature of who and what we are in greater depth and more illuminating ways.

I'll go see Revolutions, though, naturally.

scottJun 02, 2003 at 1:44PM

Mr. Nosuch said: "Perhaps Zion is a "Development/QA" box, and the Matrix the "Production" box. The Source is the Machine's version control software."

This is such an excellent idea, from a computing perspective on the movie, but I suspect it's not in the Wachowski's zone of influence enough to be the *real* deal. It would certainly be a more appealing verison of the matrix within a matrix theory.

CarolynJun 02, 2003 at 2:03PM

Trinity has to be pregnant in the next film

I don't think there is time to show that she is pregnant. Revolutions can only happen in less than 24 hours. Neo said so himself.

DaveJun 02, 2003 at 2:20PM

I really doubt the "Matrix within a Matrix" idea. Sure, it would be interesting, but I think it has two really big flaws.

One, it's very obvious. If you were going to write a twist for The Matrix, the most obvious one would be just to have it be inside another Matrix. While people who haven't put as much thought into the concept would think it was neat, I think that it would do a dis-service to the film, and defeats the purpose of it. The film is about redemption. In Reloaded, we learn that Neo is special somehow - not like his predecessors. What would be the point of all of that if it just turned out that there was just another Matrix wrapped around the current one?

Second, the idea is way too defeatest. There's no way out of the argument: "what if it's all just inside another Matrix." Then, even if Neo escapes and crashes the entire Matrix and frees mankind, it could all still be just part of another Matrix. Why make this big story if you're just going to trap your heroes in a basic plot twist out of a Twilight Zone episode? Decartes tackled that hundreds of years ago.

CarolynJun 02, 2003 at 5:19PM

only 94 days until Revolutions!!! Then all of our questions will have answers.

I can hardly wait.

CoreyJun 02, 2003 at 5:42PM

PJ says:

If they nixed the rave scene, and maybe one or two of the mind numbingly slow fight scenes in the beginning, the whole movie would have flowed better.

On first viewing I thought the rave scene was horrible too, but after thinking about it I realized it did have a purpose. It was gone over several places above so I won't get into it, but it basically represents what Neo is trying to save. I do however believe that this ideal could have been represented in a better way, perhaps showing some kids or people having fun instead of just a bunch of sex.

I enjoyed every second of the fight scenes and didn't think they were too long, but they could have had more of a purpose. In the first fight with the agents Neo just smacks them around for a bit then runs off. The Smith fight was equally purposeless as he simply flies off after they start to overpower him. I think the fight scenes in the first movie were better where he couldn't just fly off when things went bad.

CoreyJun 02, 2003 at 5:59PM

Brisvegas1 says:


Are you really arguing that both Bayne/Smith and Neo just happen to both be unconscious... that there is nothing more to it...? Come on - obviously neo is the .1% of .1% who has realised the illusion of first the matrix and then of Zion and has now rejected them both for the real world...thus leaving things open for a whole movie about the true fate of humans and machine.

I don't have a great argument for it, but I just don't believe the matrix within a matrix thing. I hadn't really thought about Bain/Smith and Neo being unconscious at the same time, but if it means anything I think it's simply that they can both hack into the matrix with their minds instead of being hardwired in.

Smith's comment to himself "well, not exactly like before..." This means that what has happened to smith hasn't happened in the previous versions of the matrix

Why is Smith different this time? So far I haven't seen this mentioned, but Neo is not the only thing that's different this time. Why did Smith return to the matrix ? Or perhaps there was an equivalent to agent Smith in all the previous versions.....

It is far more likely that Persephone is an early version of Trinity... that's why she is jealous, Merovingian was an early Neo

Merovingian and Persephone can't be earlier versions of Neo and Trinity as Merovingian and Persephone are programs and neo and Trinity are human.

Now it doesn't mater that the W. brothers have revealed Zion to be another matrix because Revolutions is in November... and it will be in the real world.

Um....no.

Neo still knows hacking, still knows kung fu - and he will have to use those skills with his real body in the real world, quite possibly with his friends that he will wake up.

If you watch the Revolutions trailer, Neo and Smith punch eachother and both fly back a remarkable distance. This goes against the laws of physics in the real world, meaning this battle can only take place in the matrix.

The video screens in the architect scene show scenes of neo in the real world... how does the matrix have access to this information if Zion is not part of the matrix?

I didn't notice the scenes of Neo in the real world....I'll have to look for that next time I watch Reloaded.

CoreyJun 02, 2003 at 6:11PM

biscuit says:

"ten hours straight. He's like a machine."

Relevant?

I don't think so. Neo as a machine would just take away from the overall heroism and drama of the movie.

Owen says:

A creased and battered spoon is passed to Neo in The Matrix Reloaded when outside the Matrix. If the spoon was manipulated by the boy within the Matrix, thereby showing his power to influence the Matrix, how come the spoon given to Neo outside the Matrix is so worn? Has the boy been bending that spoon in the real world? Or is it simply an emblem of that shared past, a token of good luck for the coming mission?

I believe the spoon was only for nostalgic effect, but if it did have a deeper meaning it was that Neo's powers can extend to the real world also. The spoon is battered because that's the best they can manage in Zion. If the boy was manipulating the spoon, then he would be "the one" that realized that Zion was fake, and neo wouldn't have to, so that can't be it.

Carolyn says:

only 94 days until Revolutions!!! Then all of our questions will have answers.

I can hardly wait.

agreed

ChrisJun 02, 2003 at 6:18PM

If you watch the Revolutions trailer, Neo and Smith punch eachother and both fly back a remarkable distance. This goes against the laws of physics in the real world, meaning this battle can only take place in the matrix.

Yeah that would be back in the Matrix, however in that scene, Smith does say "Mr Anderson, welcome back, we've missed you", as if he was away from it for awhile. Hmmmm.

JonJun 02, 2003 at 7:55PM

Trannies. It's all about the trannies.

What? It was in the Post!

KutasthaJun 02, 2003 at 9:00PM

Persephone is all about kissing everyone, she wants to kiss people. This is shown in the video game when there are two different scenes of her kissing Niobe and then Ghost. Yes, Jada actuallys kisses Monica. Persephone even taunts Niobe that she is afraid to kiss a woman.

Niobe follows up with something like, "You're not a woman. You're a program!"

CarolynJun 03, 2003 at 1:34AM

Sorry for my earlier stupidity, I forgot how to count. There are acutally 156 days until the Matrix Revolutions...

And it just makes it worse doesn't it.

Does anyone know how to unlock all the extra scenes in the Matrix game so that we can just watch them without having to go through the entire game again? If anyone does, please tell me.

Spoon BoyJun 03, 2003 at 2:17AM

Carolyn says:

There are acutally 156 days until the Matrix Revolutions...

10001110 days and counting down. But don't forget that computers start from zero, or in this case, end. So technically, barring all sneak previews, Revolutions won't be opening until the 157th day in the sequence which began the day you said this. :)

LuisJun 03, 2003 at 2:43AM

Free Will or Improvised Fate?

I figure this weblog could use one more theory.
There are no chance occurances. The only choice humans have is expression. Improvization.
The Oracle was an “intuative program” designed to understand humans. What she eventually realized was the humans shared a fate. She discovered this pattern watching the Matrix reload 5 times. The information realized was that certain events will happen. Who,when,where and how are unknown. The only given is that certain events happen, no matter what.
The oracle tests the potentials for the roles that have been experianed before. She has the benifit of witnessing the fate of the humans 5 times. Every Matrix had the same themes and happenings. The oracle saw the pattern. She knows a pattern exists. Who will play the role? She can't know. She can however identify the role player by actions or themes that have happened. Trinity, (after being identified) was told SHE would fall in love with the "one". Morpheous would find the "one". All are roles played. How they play the game is up to the player.
It was different every time. The key maker finally realized his destiny. He understood he had a role. Understanding is not required. It will happen whether you fight it, or flow with it. Whether you know you are playing the part or not is irrelevent.
The whole seris is based on one improbability after another. Timing. Neo is still fighting cause and affect understanding of his life. The vase, the candy, will he sit... The Oracle and Morpheous belive in the prophecy. Not everyone understands. Understanding is irrelevent. Several of these just in time situatuions made believers out of some. Cypher died thinking he had a choice. Manipulation happens only after understanding. Even that is limited. Improvization of the role . I believe love is what ties all of this together. The architect only gave Neo two choices based on the rules/ intrest of his Matrix. Everyone else took those choices. Sucks to go so far only to return to the begining again, and again, and again...
The humans and machines also share a fate: once they complete their purpose, they die/ return to the source.
Below are supporting refrences from the dialoge of The Matrix screenplay:
****
(Morpheous describes the programs in the Matrix. This explains Agent Smiths upload into Bane / Cain.)
****
Morpheus: Look again. Freeze it.
Neo: This...this isn't the Matrix?
Morpheus: No. It's another training program designed to teach you one thing. If you are not one of us, you are one of them.
Neo: What are they?
Morpheus: Sentient programs. They can move in and out of any software still hard-wired to their system. That means that anyone we haven't unplugged is potentially an agent. Inside the Matrix, they are everyone and they are no one. We are survived by hiding from them by running from them. But they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors. They are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them.
****
(Oracles dialogue with Neo. She does not know what Neo looks like. She has seen this Matrix unfold 5 times. She was/is the program designed by the Matrix to figure out the Humans. All she knows is certain actions/ events happen during the run of the Matrix. She is not a true Oracle- That is why the architect sneers when discussing the mother of the Matrix. Having watched the Matrix, a movie or even a video game unfold 5 times would make you a great guesser/ prophesier of what events will happen- REGARDLESS OF WHO IS PLAYING THE ROLE. Groundhog day with balls.)********************
The Oracle: I know, you're Neo. Be right with you.
Neo: You're The Oracle?
The Oracle: Bingo. Not quite what you were expecting, right? Almost done. Smell good, don't they?
Neo: Yeah.
The Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but your not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
Neo: What vase?
The Oracle: That vase.
Neo: I'm sorry.
The Oracle: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.
Neo: How did you know?
The Oracle: What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything. You're cuter than I thought. I can see why she likes you.
Neo: Who?
The Oracle: Not too bright, though. You know why Morpheus brought you to see me?
Neo: I think so.
The Oracle: So, what do you think? Do you think you're The One?
Neo: I don't know.
The Oracle: You know what that means? It's Latin. Means `Know thyself'. I'm going to let you in on a little
Secret. Being The One is just like being in love. No one can tell you your're in love, you just know it. Through and through. Balls to bones. Well, I better have a look at you. Open your mouth, say Ahhh.
Neo: Ahhh.
The Oracle: Okay. Now I'm supposed to say, `Umm, that's interesting, but...,' then you say...
Neo: But what?
The Oracle: But you already know what I'm going to tell you.
Neo: I'm not The One.
Oracle: Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
The Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go. What's funny?
Neo: Morpheus. He...he almost had me convinced.
The Oracle: I know. Poor Morpheus. Without him we're lost.
Neo: What do you mean, without him?
The Oracle: Are you sure you want to hear this? Morpheus believes in you, Neo. And no one, not you, not even me can convince him otherwise. He believes it so blindly that he's going to sacrifice his life to save yours.
Neo: What?
The Oracle: You're going to have to make a choice. In the one hand you'll have Morpheus' life and in the other hand you'll have your own. One of you is going to die. Which one will be up to you. I'm sorry, kiddo, I really am. You have a good soul, and I hate giving good people bad news. Oh, don't worry about it. As soon as you step outside that door, you'll start feeling better. You'll remember you don't believe in any of this fate crap. You're in control of your own life, remember? Here, take a cookie. I promise, by the time you're done eating it, you'll feel right as rain.
Morpheus: What was said was for you and for you alone.
***************
(One of the many examples of the test of faith of fate. No matter what, certain events WILL happen. Most of the role-players don’t know the roles they are playing. Know thy self. There are no coincidences. )
***************
Agent Brown: If indeed the insider has failed, they'll sever the connection as soon as possible, unless...
Agent Jones: They're dead, in either case...
Agent Smith: We have no choice but to continue as planned. Deploy the sentinels. Immediately.
(Nebuchadnezzar)
Tank: Morpheus, you're more than a leader to us. You're our father. We'll miss you always.
Neo: Stop. I don't believe this is happening.
Tank: Neo, this has to be done.
Neo: Does it? I don't know, I... this can't be just coincidence. It can't be.
Tank: What are you talking about?
Neo: The Oracle. She told me this would happen. She told me that I would have to make a choice.
Trinity: What choice?... What are you doing?
Neo: I'm going in.
Trinity: No you're not.
Neo: I have to.
Trinity: Neo, Morpheus sacrificed himself so that he could get you out. There's no way that you're going back in.
Neo: Morpheus did what he did because he believed I am something I'm not.
Trinity: What?
Neo: I'm not the one, Trinity. The Oracle hit me with that too.
Trinity: No. You have to be.
Neo: I'm not, I'm sorry. I'm just another guy.
Trinity: No, Neo. That's not true. It can't be true.
Neo: Why?
Tank: Neo, this is loco. They've got Morpheus in a military controlled building. Even if you somehow got inside, those are agents holding him. Three of them. I want Morpheus back too, but what you're talking about is suicide.
Neo: I know that's what it looks like, but it's not. I can't explain to you why it's not. Morpheus believed something and he was ready to give his life for what he believed. I understand that now. That's why I have to go.
Tank: Why?
Neo: Because I believe in something.
Trinity: Neo, I want to tell you something, but I'm afraid of what it could mean if I do. Everything the Oracle told me has come true. Everything but this.
**********
What is the significance of eyewear in the Matrix? Product placement or window to the soul? Please forgive if I repeat. Luis

Brisvegas1Jun 03, 2003 at 6:18AM

Control is about baking Neo's noodle in just the right way...

The Oracle: Bingo. Not quite what you were expecting, right? Almost done. Smell good, don't they?
Neo: Yeah.

The Oracle: What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything.

The Architect - although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human.

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control.

Neo is a human of a certain type - exposed to a certain type of stimuli - with a statistical liklihood of turning out a certain way.

There is a vanishingly small possibility of Neo turning out as the one - but given enough time it is bound to happen.

Smells good, don't it!

boxxJun 03, 2003 at 6:48AM

couple of points i noticed in reloaded.

1. morpheus is talking about how nothing is insignificant (during the battle speech scene) cuts two a guy from the ship that wasn't Niobe's stresses a walkway that breaks and causes the ship to not get out of the way of the 'bomb' from the sentinel. it is because of this event that trin has to go in to the matrix at all. rem the oracle told her she would love the ONE. and it is because of that neo goes takes the door he does. there whole love afair is generated by the oracle in order to illustrate human emotion vs machine rational to the one. it becomes a lesson. another test for neo. that little piece of chance is makes the 6th iteration dfferent from the others. also notice how much calmer this neo is from his predicssors on screen.

2. im not shure about the confusion of oracle/vs kissing women or weather or not that was bain in the end. it seems really painfully obvious that the arch is talking about the oracle, and that that is bain who is influenced somehow by smith in the end.

3. if i remember right bain is slicing an equals sign or an 11 into his hand.

4. link is a sailor right? he's been away from home for a while doing grungy dangerous things. why wouldn't he say "where's my puss--" anyway don't married people living in zion still flirt?

5. it's been a while since i last saw the first film, but dindn't tank get really fucked up. whats to say he didn't die of complications on the ride home?

Ged ByrneJun 03, 2003 at 6:54AM

Just a little more Noodle baking.

I'm going to try to sqare some circles here with some ideas that have just struck me.

What if everything the Oracle told Neo in that room were true. He wasn't the one. Either Morpheus or Neo was going to die, and Neo would choose.

Neo choose to die so that Morpheus could live. Neo died in the corridor outside room 303.

At the moment of death the link is intercepted and before the body can realise a new program is uploaded into Neo's brain.

We know it is possible for a program to be uploaded to a human brain. We have seen Smith do it. What if Smith and Neo really are the same: computer programs uploaded into human brains.

We also know that the Architect is taking special interest at this point, because we have seen his monitors on the walls just a few scenes before.

The program does not know that it is a program. It shares Neo's memories. We know that the Architect has access to these memories, he showed them on the screen.

Now a program is occupying Neo's body, but it doesn't know that it isn't Neo. It has the same memeories, it is occupying the same body and feeling the same emotions. Is it still human? Is it still Neo?

There are of course differences. The new program can see the Matrix for what it is, the same way other programs see it. He has some other subtle differences that will enable him to fulfill his purpose.

But Neo began to change before he was killed. Perhaps that was the effect of the biscuit given to him. The Oracle did say he would feel much better after eating it. All part of the process of priming him to become the One in his next 'life.'

So Neo is a program, but also irrovocably human. Anybody here read Pratchett's Thief of Time. The effect that occupying a human body has upon the Auditors?

But this means that Neo is a machine. It has been pointed out that this is dissatisying, because it detracts from Neo's role as hero/messiah.

What if the film is not about Neo - it is about Morpheous. Neo has alreadly lost his role as everyman. In Matrix Neo was the everyman - now it is Link.

Perhaps Neo is also to lose his role as Messiah. Most of the people I have spoken to have agreed with me that Neo is too powerful to relate to. The freeway scene is so good because Neo is out of the picture. Morphous's struggle was so much more engaging than Neo's fight with the Smiths.

At the end of Reloaded Morpheos is where Neo was at the beginning of the Matrix. Everything he believed in has been taken from him, and now he must learn to know himself without the crutch of either a woman or an oracle.

Perhaps the Matrix is all about Morpheous, not Neo. Just as Star Wars was really about Annakin, not Luke.

The end of Reloaded was a great piece of redirection to make everybody think Matrix inside a Matrix. In reality it is the other hovership that EGMs the squids. It is Smith/Bane that Neo feels.

Brisvegas1Jun 03, 2003 at 7:54AM

smith bane is not cutting an eleven into his hands - his is cutting along the palm lines.

look at your own hands - you will see the lines.

Palmists believe they can tell someones future from their palm - see thir destiny laid out before them.

Smith/Bain is litterally carving out a new destiny for himself.. he is no longer just a program - he is something more... a virus maybe - and he is on his way out of the matrix and into the real world.

PeteJun 03, 2003 at 9:41AM

I still feel that Smith/Bane cutting his hands is a prelude to the infection of Neo.

Smith is a replicating virus now and tried to infect Neo in the Matrix. Taking over Bane and ending up in the real(?) world, he goes for Neo again, this time with a knife. Is he attempting to kill him? Or does Smith want to pass on his now biological infection into the body of the One? If so, the slicing of his hands could be so he can pass on the infection to Neo's blood (after slicing him with the knife).

That's what struck me when watching it (only seen it the once). And it reminded me of Snow Crash - which was both a computer virus and a biological one. Indeed I think in the book when Hiro asks if Snow Crash is one or the other, the answer is 'is there a difference?' (or something similar... it has been a long time since I read it!

KotyJun 03, 2003 at 10:21AM

Spoon Boy:
>> btw, I tried sending an email to [email protected], but Micro$oft bounced it back telling me there is no such recipient. ;)
There is no Spoon.

And just one more 101 allusion: The Burly Brawl has (it has been said) 100 Smiths...plus one Neo.

Spoon BoyJun 03, 2003 at 11:56AM

Koty says:

one more 101 allusion: The Burly Brawl has (it has been said) 100 Smiths...plus one Neo.

One hundred and One. SICK!!! Nice grab.

AgrippaJun 03, 2003 at 5:30PM

A few notes that others may have mentioned.

To make things interesting.

The Merovingians were a line of Francish kings who claimed direct decendancy from Christ (through the dubious proposition that christ actually left the holy land,withmary magdalene after faking his death, and moved to france). There we deposed by the Catholic church, who orchestrated the assasignation of Dagobert II. They then founded the Priory of Sion (interesting spelling no?), a secret society bent on re-instanging their bloodline as the rulers of a unified europe and eventually the world.

Rational vs Irrational. Neo is an anomaly. The question is however, what is it about him that makes hima an anomaly? It is the fact that he is so similar to the machines. He has the ability to make the differentiation between sense expereince and consciousness. Remember, Knowledge is not only sense expereince. This is what the red pill means. However that is a particularly machine like understanding. He has the ability to manipulate the code of the matrix because he is more machine like, he is much more rational. He is becoming super-rational. Think of Descartes, the only thing you can truly rationally know is that you think, aside from that nothing is truly certain (without the omnibenevolent power of god to maintain appearances). So when given the choice between being there when trinity dies, and allowing humanity as a species continue, the machines naturally expect that this super rational being, the one, will make a rational choice. He does not. Because of Love, but also because of something else. I am reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron". The more perfect you make the Matrix, the more anomalous the anomaly must be.

Agrippa

GhostJun 03, 2003 at 5:56PM

I don't have any Huge explanations or questions. But i do have this one belief, That what the Architect said is all untrue. I don't believe even the most little piece. I'm sticking with Morpheos. Plus left the movie at a point where no-one really knows what is going on. I think they did it like that for a reason. So don't be a fool.

NikJun 03, 2003 at 6:04PM

Even as a big fan of Baudrillard and Hofstadter, I have not analysed The Matrix as much as some people posting to this board. But my one thought after watching the film was the lack of consistency in terms of its meaning. It seemed to jump from immature dialogue and strange scenes (‘kiss me like you kiss her’), to more deep-meaning plot turns. The Wackowski brothers could of written a much tighter plot around the core meaning of the story as opposed to detracting to smaller issues and redundant scenes. This has me thinking that they are not really as brilliant as what they have made out to be, the message from a film (if there is infact one) need not be ‘buried’ for it to be a good film. During Fight Club, and The Usual Suspects every scene and every line of dialogue was another step in the plot, there was no ‘padding’.

With the rave scene, in the first movie tank mentions the parties in zion to neo (‘oh, the parties!’). It is an expression of human freedom in the real world, though it was a bit over-the-top.

CoreyJun 03, 2003 at 6:13PM

Luis says:

(Morpheous describes the programs in the Matrix. This explains Agent Smiths upload into Bane / Cain.)
****
Morpheus: Look again. Freeze it.
Neo: This...this isn't the Matrix?
Morpheus: No. It's another training program designed to teach you one thing. If you are not one of us, you are one of them.
Neo: What are they?
Morpheus: Sentient programs. They can move in and out of any software still hard-wired to their system. That means that anyone we haven't unplugged is potentially an agent. Inside the Matrix, they are everyone and they are no one. We are survived by hiding from them by running from them. But they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors. They are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them.

Not that I completely disagree with the idea set forth above, but Smith did not move into Bain the way agents in M1 moved from person to person. He was copied or "puddinged" by Smith. Not the same thing. This dialogue does however prove that programs can hack into humans, at least while they are hardwired to the matrix.

Nik CubrilovicJun 03, 2003 at 6:19PM

In addition, on Zion being a sub-matrix. If you recall in the first film that Neo was freed from the Matrix, and it showed his body amongst an array of ‘real’ bodies being picked up by the ship. This was the real world, and the real bodies plugged into the matrix were there. Now if this were not the real world, but in fact another matrix, why would they have the real bodies for the first matrix within another matrix? Nothing that I saw in the sequel diverted my attention from the story of the original movie, being that Zion is the only real-world free human presence that are remnants of original humans and old battles. Recall that tank and his brother in the original had no plugs? That’s because they were born ‘real’. Only people that were freed from the Matrix could go into it (ie. Morpheus, Trinity, Cypher, Neo and Switch), maybe even the Wackoskis forgot this in the sequel. Neo has power in the real world just as Jesus had power in the real world. If the third movie does not become an ‘eternal golden braid’, then it is likely to reveal the presence of something greater than machines and humans alike (ie. God).

CoreyJun 03, 2003 at 6:28PM

Ged Byrne says:

Perhaps Neo is also to lose his role as Messiah. Most of the people I have spoken to have agreed with me that Neo is too powerful to relate to. The freeway scene is so good because Neo is out of the picture. Morphous's struggle was so much more engaging than Neo's fight with the Smiths.

At the end of Reloaded Morpheos is where Neo was at the beginning of the Matrix. Everything he believed in has been taken from him, and now he must learn to know himself without the crutch of either a woman or an oracle.

Perhaps the Matrix is all about Morpheous, not Neo. Just as Star Wars was really about Annakin, not Luke.

Good theory, but I just don't see it. A friend of mine pointed out the same thing, that Neo is now a god, making for a pointless movie. That's why I love how the W's ended Reloaded. Neo can still pretty much kick the crap out of anybody he wants, but it's not just about that anymore. The conflict has widened, and Neo can't win simply by going around kicking ass.

As for the Star Wars analogy, I'd like to point out two things. One, each character (Anakin and Luke) had their own trilogy, and for a reason. After spending two movies touting Neo as the hero and savior of mankind, I don't think they can switch to Morpheus in a single movie. Besides, being a grizzled war veteran, I just don't think Morpheus has the emotional and heroic appeal that Neo does. Second, you have it backwards. The prophecy in Star Wars about "bringing balance to the force" was actually about Luke, not Anakin like everyone thought.

CoreyJun 03, 2003 at 6:40PM

Agrippa says:

Rational vs Irrational. Neo is an anomaly. The question is however, what is it about him that makes hima an anomaly? It is the fact that he is so similar to the machines. He has the ability to make the differentiation between sense expereince and consciousness. Remember, Knowledge is not only sense expereince. This is what the red pill means. However that is a particularly machine like understanding. He has the ability to manipulate the code of the matrix because he is more machine like, he is much more rational. He is becoming super-rational.

Actually, it is the fact that Neo is a free thinking human, the opposite of a machine, that allows him to see code and manipulate the matrix. Remember that according to Morpheus the agents are "still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be." It is because Neo is human that he can surpass these boundaries, not that he is more machinelike. And no, I don't believe that Tank saying "he's a machine" has any great significance.

KotyJun 03, 2003 at 7:43PM

The Matrix Overloaded

Has anyone ever seen the name “Zion” actually spelled out anywhere, or just spoken by the performers?

If not, perhaps the name is actually “Sion”, a reference to The Prieure du Notre Dame du Sion, or Priory of Sion, (as was mentioned above), a noted “secret society” whose earliest roots are in pre-Christian Gnostic society. As mentioned above, M1 is an “almost perfect retelling of the Gnostic faith.”

Past Grand Masters of the Priory have included Leonardo de Vinci and Isaac Newton, both of whom feature prominently -- along with Merovingians and an albino -- in Dan Brown’s “The Da Vinci Code.” Matrixphiles may want to check it out to spot the mutual allusions (and en passant to Kubrick’s “Eyes Wide Shut”).

The Priory is said to be the cabal behind many of the events that occurred at the infamous Rennes-le-Chateau, a village sitting atop an extinct volcano -- Mount Bugarach -- which according to legend leads down to caves at the center of the Earth, the last realm of super men.

Sion has a long-standing grudge against the Catholic Church, who they feel betrayed betrayed the Merovingian dynasty and crowned its destroyers in its rightful place. To show allegiance to the true faith, Merovingian monarchs never cut their hair and bear a distinctive birthmark -- a red cross over their shoulder blades. Fun to see if any such mark appears in the upcoming Revolution.

The tile patterns on the floor of Merovingian palace in TMR (as well as the recurring compass rose motif in "Eyes Wide Shut") are PoS symbols for the wife of Jesus, Mary Magdalene. Again, more to be found in "Da Vinci Code."

But it's easy to get carried away. I remember the flurry of intelligent postulation that was sparked after "Empire Strikes Back" was released, only to be faced with the dissapointment that was "Jedi." I still have the fanzines bursting witth "clone wars" speculation, all wrong and all better than the actual plot of the sequel. Same with the first season of "Twin Peaks" or even after the release of some William Gibson books. Unfortunately, fan speculation is often better storytelling than Hollywood is capable of.

And remember one critical factor that can not be ignored... this movie is produced by Joel "Mass, not Class" Silver.

Silver wil absolutely positively not bet his Frank Lloyd Wright mansion on some geeky boy wet dream of a nihilistic cyberpunk onionskin "revolution means-no-human-beings-we're-all-machines" ending. He just does not make movies like that, no matter what the W brothers' true inclination. He makes movies that put butts in seats, and any spill-over into the Philospohy stacks at the University Library is strictly gravy. Doug Hofstadter he ain't, much less Goedel, Escher, or Bach.

As a better cinematic symbologist than I once said, “They’re digging in the wrong place...”

KotyJun 03, 2003 at 8:07PM

One more theory, and I'm going to lunch.

You may not know about the meta-clues that BMW added to their online films ("the Hire" et al) that led to a secret "Subplot."

"The Subplot" was a hyper-immersive game, as popularized by Stanford and MIT gearheads and popularized in David Fincher's "The Game." Except that in this case -- rather than the Game being set by friends-- the clues were only for the observant, the paranoid, and the downright obsessive.

The clues were hidden in plain sight, embedded in the BMW films. Phone numbers and "red herrings" led the suspicious to real answering machines, ads in newspapers, and strange heiroglyphs on Apple.com and other web sites. For the handful of followers who spotted the allusions, followed up on them, and then solved all the puzzles, an invitation was sent -- anonymously and without explanation of the purpose -- to rendezvous with "the man in the dark coat" on a street corner in New York City. One couple followed all of the Subplot featrues to win a new Z4.

More here: http://www.unfiction.com/~tienle/K/kguide.html

I could see the W's loading their film with these subplots, waiting for a few faithful to bite. Who's with me? C'mon, Spoon Boy, you got nothing better to do than code jockey at Micro$oft...

Spoon BoyJun 03, 2003 at 8:31PM

Koty says:

The clues were hidden in plain sight, embedded in the BMW films. Phone numbers and "red herrings" led the suspicious to real answering machines, ads in newspapers, and strange heiroglyphs on Apple.com and other web sites. For the handful of followers who spotted the allusions, followed up on them, and then solved all the puzzles, an invitation was sent -- anonymously and without explanation of the purpose -- to rendezvous with "the man in the dark coat" on a street corner in New York City. One couple followed all of the Subplot featrues to win a new Z4.

I could see the W's loading their film with these subplots, waiting for a few faithful to bite.

lol... man, I hope you're wrong. I can only imagine myself pulling the total Ralphie from "A Christmas Story" on the evening of November 5th... racing home from the theater after seeing Revolutions... taking all my accumulated Matrix notes and locking myself in the bathroom to decode it all:

BE SURE TO DRINK YOUR OVALTINE.

RayneJun 03, 2003 at 11:02PM

LMAO - that would be enormously lame! Can't imagine spending more mental energy than spent above on these 400+ posts to decipher this mystery...only to win a decoder ring!

Spoon BoyJun 03, 2003 at 11:22PM

Koty says:
..it's easy to get carried away. I remember the flurry of intelligent postulation that was sparked after "Empire Strikes Back" was released, only to be faced with the dissapointment that was "Jedi."

Not to mention Phantom Menace and the consequently predictable cheesiness of Attack of the Clowns. Similar thing with Metallica's Load of whatever. In each of those cases a considerable time had elapsed between a decent project and a collapse of creative direction and integrity. I'm hoping Revolutions and Reloaded are part of one single larger project, which incidentally encompasses The Matrix.

btw, which NYC street corner are we meeting dark coat guy in order to win the Z4 again?

Regarding Bane cutting "11" in his hand,

I noticed that as well. I also noticed he was writing it backwards, from right to left. You could take that one in a few different directions. First thing I notice is that "11" (not pronounced "eleven") matches the "ONEONE" painted on the courtyard wall during the 101 fight. I like it.

fyi: The Animatrix is out today.

CarolynJun 04, 2003 at 2:46AM

155 and counting

Brisvegas1Jun 04, 2003 at 4:50AM

Matrix Within A Matrix?

While we won't know the answer to this til we all get to watch the next film.... we are all obviously meant to be trying to figure out the answer if this news post from the official "what is the matrix" site is anyting to go by....

For those who haven't yet heard, beyond the currently released console and computer game, ENTER THE MATRIX, there is another game in the works. Unlike the current game, this next one is a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game (MMORPG), playable by thousands of people simultaneously. For those not familiar with this type of computer based game, everything within this shared environment will evolve as people interact with it. Is this a Matrix within a Matrix? Or simply a game simulating the Matrix? Good question.

I'm still leaning to the matrix within a matrix theory... once you look for it there are clues in the first movie... eg. Cypher 'miraculously' being prevented from killin Neo etc

RaenaJun 04, 2003 at 7:25AM

Can I just say this is an awesome thread? I just spent friggin ages reading it, and now need a good long think and an aspirin.

GhostJun 04, 2003 at 1:01PM

Would it be possible for someone to explain what the Oricle said in the video game about the child that will change the matrix and the real world. People have been really messing up what was said. I don't think she was even talking about Neo.

Also if you play the video game there is a bum that talks to Niobe about zion falling IN 72 HOURS. Is this the same person that was Ushered out of Merovingians RESTERANT?

reedmaniacJun 04, 2003 at 3:13PM

Ged Bryne suggested:
At the moment of death the link is intercepted and before the body can realise a new program is uploaded into Neo's brain.

We know it is possible for a program to be uploaded to a human brain. We have seen Smith do it. What if Smith and Neo really are the same: computer programs uploaded into human brains.

Another bit of support (perhaps) for this idea is when Neo comes out of the Matrix after fighting the Legion of Smiths, he is asked by Morpheus what Smith was doing to him when the chocolate pudding was growing all over his body (exactly what Smith did with Bane, if you recall) and Neo replied something like: "I don't know, but I know what it felt like. Like when I died in that hallway"

spookyJun 04, 2003 at 3:22PM

alright dumb question:
the single survivour is he the single survivour of the counter attack or of zion itself?

GhostJun 04, 2003 at 4:08PM

Another thing that i will investigate is about the ENTER THE MATRIX game if you play as niobe, the Oricle will tell her that when Neo leaves the Architect HIS MIND WILL BE SPLIT BETWEEN THE MATRIX AND THE REAL WORLD.
I havn't played the game with niobe yet but if someone could varify this info mabey we could link this with other info to create a better explanation then.........

1. CODE CROSSING theroy (with Smith to controll Machines)
2. PHYSIC theroy (Neo can controll real world with mind)
3. DOUBLE MATRIX theroy. (The real world is another matrix)

Or even to further support these.

theJanJun 04, 2003 at 5:46PM

spooky says:
alright dumb question:
the single survivour is he the single survivour of the counter attack or of zion itself?

Of the counter attack. Zion lives.

Party on, Zion.
:-)

CoreyJun 04, 2003 at 6:06PM

reedmaniac says:
Ged Bryne suggested:
At the moment of death the link is intercepted and before the body can realise a new program is uploaded into Neo's brain.

We know it is possible for a program to be uploaded to a human brain. We have seen Smith do it. What if Smith and Neo really are the same: computer programs uploaded into human brains.

Another bit of support (perhaps) for this idea is when Neo comes out of the Matrix after fighting the Legion of Smiths, he is asked by Morpheus what Smith was doing to him when the chocolate pudding was growing all over his body (exactly what Smith did with Bane, if you recall) and Neo replied something like: "I don't know, but I know what it felt like. Like when I died in that hallway"

I'm pretty sure Neo was just saying that being puddinged by Smith simply felt like dying, like in the hallway. I don't buy into that "Neo's a machine/program" theory. We shall see. This may suggest that Bain doesn't even exist anymore, that he's dead and Smith is in complete control (or maybe this was already obvious to everyone else).

CarolynJun 05, 2003 at 1:48AM

154, "here we go."

and just for the fun of it, there are only 196 days until the return of the king.

Also, I work at a movie theater, so I got to see the martix reloaded five times so far and all for free, (but the free part is just to make you jealous) I keep telling people that, as a middle movie, they need to expect it to be somewhat disappointing, but if they are patient, all of the qurstions will be answered in the conclusion.

154

KutasthaJun 05, 2003 at 2:08AM

Something to chew on. In Matriculated, which is a very trippy short anime film on The Animatrix DVD, has this station in the real world, where people jack-in differently. They jack-in while in a seated meditation pose. Very interesting. The person sitting next to them helps them plug-in. This station seems more free, of course, at the end it is destroyed. Sorry if I spoiled the end of this film.

But, the scientist-looking operator who never jacks-in himself talks about reprogramming one of the captured machines they just caught. But, he says he doesn't want to reprogram it unless it chooses to fight with them. So, they all jack-in and play a game with it, which in the end, the machine chooses to fight with them. But, he happens to do it too late. Anyway, the operator/scientiest talks about the machines not knowing what is real or not, he says everything to their AI is virtual. He says you could program them to be slaves. I think this was hinting at something.

It falls as the last in The Animatrix series, and the machine at the end elects to save the woman who is fitting the squiddies in this above ground station.

Will some machines come to the aid of the humans? Will they reprogram machines to fight the good fight for them in Revolutions?

I think it is a good possibility it will happen.

Also, this might throw something into the matrix, because machines are able to jack-in too.

Are agents actually the walking machines? Yes, there is special walking machines that haven't been reprogrammed and are more hardcore. You will notice in this short anime that the walking machines control the squiddies by dropping a device that calls the squiddies to their location.

Spoon BoyJun 05, 2003 at 2:12AM

Carolyn says:

Do we know the name of the boy that neo saved/didn't save?

I just watched The Animatrix. The kid's name is Michael Karl Popper. The Animatrix's fourth piece, entitled "Kid's Story", tells us the story behind how he was brought out of the Matrix. I'll leave it @ that for now.

There's a whole new load of relevant material in The Animatrix that will open a few more cans of worms on this thread. Particularly enlightening are "The Second Renaissance Parts I & II" (written by the W's), which tap into the "Zion archives" and tell us more about A.I.'s thematic role in the story. Good stuff; have fun with it.

Koty asked:

Has anyone ever seen the name “Zion” actually spelled out anywhere, or just spoken by the performers?

Yes, on a computer screen. In Reloaded, Trinity took down the power plant using the password ZION0101.

Ged ByrneJun 05, 2003 at 5:47AM

Reedmaniac,

Nice, very nice. I'd missed that one.

tomjkiehnJun 05, 2003 at 7:33AM

Yeah, I'm in Moscow and I picked up a DVD of Matrix:Reloaded so that I could pause the screens and catch all the dialouge. I noticed the 'Zion' spelled with a 'Z' as well.

However, I think that it was actually spelled Z10N0101, with a '1' in place of an 'I'. That probably doesn't matter, does it?

I think that with that whole Bane/Smith cutting his palm deal, what is significant is that he is cutting '11' (ONEONE); the same thing we see graffitied on the wall in the Neo vs 100 agents fight scene.

I am still looking for significance in the "D-MAN" graffiti from that same scene. Any ideas?

GhostJun 05, 2003 at 11:56AM

After seeing the animatrix last night I have come to a discision. The matrix 3 is not going to HAVE in a happy ending. In The Second Renaissance Parts II & I, it shows the machines having an awesome army. Yet Z10N only has a few ships with EMP's. The fact is that mankind in his prime couldn't take on the machines so why now should they be able to defeat a bigger machine army?

What I think will happen (and I’ll freak if it does). Is one of three endings.

The first Neo jax into the central consciousness of the machines and destroys it.

The second Neo wakes and finds a Matrix in a matrix, and his matrix is seperate from all the other's.

The third HE DIES. And all other humans as well.
So sad yet true. There is no Physical way they can win the war.

Sorry about the spelling?

Spoon BoyJun 05, 2003 at 1:59PM

tomjkiehn says:

I am still looking for significance in the "D-MAN" graffiti from that same scene. Any ideas?

Aha! Check it out:

D-MAN: short for Download Manager, is a PHP4/MySQL program which provides a simple and secure way to manage who has access to download your files and which ones.

btw, notice that 101 looks an awful lot like a lower-case LOL.

Ghost says, after viewing The Animatrix:
The matrix 3 is not going to HAVE in a happy ending

I suspect the same. The ever-popular notion of "man saves the world and they all live happily ever after" will be over as soon as the upcoming T3 nonsense tapers off in a couple months. No John Connor ending for this one. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that our Matrix guys are setting themselves up for a horrific self-discovery of sorts, a la Rourke's character in Angel Heart. Far from happy. The good news is that they'll be able to do it all over again in the seventh revolution.

I've got a feeling that "the end" (of mankind maybe, but perhaps more abstract than that) has already happened, and this whole trilogy has been merely a result of that ultimate ending.

In The Animatrix's "Kid's Story" piece, pay close attention to what the teacher is writing on the chalkboard. ;)

CoreyJun 05, 2003 at 2:37PM

I'm guessing that the battle in Zion is just gonna be one of those hold em off till the real heroes save the day kinda things, like in Star Wars episode 1. Just as the Zionites are losing, Neo will save the day and all the machines will shut down. Kinda corny and overused, but It'll make for some good real-world battle sequences.

GhostJun 05, 2003 at 3:34PM

Now that i have your attention; when a program in the matrix becomes obsolete it was revealed that they must return or chose to stay and be rouge programs, right. Now my question is where are they returning? There must be a cental AI running the whole show. Now my theroy is that Neo must act as a virus and somehow infect this central intelligence, accessing it from inside the matrix. Obviosly it can be accessed from the matrix if smith was killed in the matrix and choose not to return to it. I personlly thought that he was going to get there when he went to the "source". But it must be farther and deeper down the rabbit hole.

BUT THEN AGAIN MABEY THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT HIM TO DO....




" The proposition, I exist, is necessary true each time I pronounce it."

CoreyJun 05, 2003 at 3:43PM

Ghost says:

I personlly thought that he was going to get there when he went to the "source". But it must be farther and deeper down the rabbit hole.

I think the door to the left led to the source. But then again, obsolete programs must go to the source, and they don't all go through the glowing door in that building like Neo did, so there must be another way to get there.....

Spoon BoyJun 05, 2003 at 3:55PM

Ghost says:

Now my question is where are they returning? There must be a cental AI running the whole show.

They (i.e. programs void of purpose and therefore facing deletion) are returning to nothingness, from whence they came.

BUT THEN AGAIN MABEY THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT HIM TO DO....

Try to shake the nagging idea of "they" and "want", which bind you to something literal. It's the art of metaphor, and the subject is A.I.

GhostJun 05, 2003 at 4:15PM

Well here is an interesting question now that I have the attention of some intelligent people; here is something to "Bake your noodle". How would the Oracle (a machine) know that Trinity (a freed mind human) would fall in love with Neo?

First of all love is an emotion of unpredictability to the machines, and I’m sure they don't understand it if they can't understand hope.

Second all of the others experienced this profound attachment to the rest of their species in a very general way, Neo's experience is far more specific: Vis-a-vis, love. So the LOVE part has not happened before.




Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not.

CarolynJun 05, 2003 at 4:22PM

1 5 3

GhostJun 05, 2003 at 4:31PM

Clever.

lofty (Adam Lofstedt)Jun 05, 2003 at 5:00PM

Come on, give the 250,000 or so folks in Zion some credit.

Zion was formed mostly from "freed" minds (except for the next generation born in Zion), who all went through the same process as Neo in discovering that what they thought was reality was actually just a program.

After undergoing such a mind-boggling realization (and being so dupped by the machines), would they then be so gullible to assume that outside the matrix is truly reality?

We haven't even experienced what the "freed" minds had to go through, we've only seen the movie, and even with that limited exposure the thoughts of recursiveness are pouring all over blogdom.

I can't imagine that the folks in Zion wouldn't have thought of this, and wouldn't have invested time, research, and effort into determining whether or not the matrix was many levels deep. Simply because of their apparently "blind" acceptance of reality outside the matrix after such a mind-shattering realization makes me certain that there is no matrix-in-a-matrix.

I don't imagine the "freed" where chosen to be freed at random. They, probably like Neo, showed an inherent curiosity or skepticism of the system, and so by nature that 0.1% in Zion would be the most skeptical/curious of all the human population.

Spoon BoyJun 05, 2003 at 5:28PM

Ghost says:

How would the Oracle (a machine) know that Trinity (a freed mind human) would fall in love with Neo?

Exaaaaaactly. :)

Scroll up and review a few of Theo's postings in this thread, all dated May 27th.

TedJun 05, 2003 at 5:52PM

I have a couple of questions and theories:

Question 1: Assuming that the matrix-within-a-matrix scenario is correct, what is the purpose of the Zion Matrix? We know that ostensibly, the "inner" matrix is used to enslave humans while their bodies are used to provide power. But if it turns out that this reason is actually a part of another Matrix, then what is the real purpose of the Matrix?

BTW, I personally give the matrix-within-a-matrix theory more weight. And I only think it's necessary to have 2 matrices. A second matrix is sufficient as a system of control. And it plays into my first theory. :)

Theory 1. The Matrix is an experiment to explore one or two concepts: free will and/or love. If it's free will it could be for numerous reasons. Perhaps the machines don't have free will and are trying to understand it through Neo. Perhaps they are simply trying to understand the concept of free will.

Theory 2. Trinity is the "intuitive program". Perhaps the reason for The Matrix is hinted at through the various discussions about the symbiotic relationship between the machines and the humans. Perhaps the machines have already figured out that coexistence is necessary for long term survival, but they are trying to find a way to teach the humans this concept. What better way than to have Neo, a human, fall in love with Trinity, a program? This would also be a somewhat surprising twist, one that it seems the W's would like. And there's that reference Keanu Reeves made in an interview that in the end it's about love (http://www.zap2it.com/movies/matrixreloaded/story?article_id=16840).

Question 2: The one thing that doesn't seem to fit is... how does Agent Smith fit into all of this? Are things really different this time, as he seems to indicate?

Ghost 303Jun 05, 2003 at 5:59PM

I checked the posts... But I strongly disagree with certain points of the discussion. Something tells me that those screens were not the previous "ones" as everyone supposes. I would tend to believe that they would be Neo's different thoughts, and reactions. I haven't read all the posts closely, and in 10 minutes I leave work. But if it's possible please post the contradictions to my belief and I will read them tomorrow and respond.




Do you believe in fate, Neo? NEO: No. MORPHEUS: Why not? NEO: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

filchyboyJun 05, 2003 at 6:01PM

It should be noted that, at least to me, the character which cuts himself in the hand is doing so with what looks like a sharks tooth.

It is a pretty customary practice in cultures which employ "vision quest" like practices to harm themselves as they begin. It enhances and focuses the consciousness. Numerous modern examples of this can be found in the writings of the modern primitive movement.

If Smith is venturing out into "flesh" this may be seen as some type of focusing event for him.

lofty (Adam Lofstedt)Jun 05, 2003 at 6:22PM

Ted said:
BTW, I personally give the matrix-within-a-matrix theory more weight. And I only think it's necessary to have 2 matrices. A second matrix is sufficient as a system of control.

I disagree. In programming, if I have to do something more than once, I write a function. Once the function has been written, it can be called as many times as one needs, and in fact functions can recursively call themselves, potentially infinitely. It wouldn't be that hard for the machines to program infinite levels of matrices. If you know that there is a large enough threat to warrant investing effort to create a function to do it again (i.e. making the "outer" matrix), then the work has already been done to do it infinitely. I don't think this is where the Ws are going with the story line.

Spoon BoyJun 05, 2003 at 6:28PM

Ted says:
Question 1: Assuming that the matrix-within-a-matrix scenario is correct, what is the purpose of the Zion Matrix? We know that ostensibly, the "inner" matrix is used to enslave humans while their bodies are used to provide power. But if it turns out that this reason is actually a part of another Matrix, then what is the real purpose of the Matrix?

It's a metaphor. Take a look @ our own world, namely the Universe, Man, and Machine (software). Man is of the Universe. Machine is of Man. We know that ostensibly, Man uses his intelligence to create Machine in order to facilitate his needs. But as it turns out in the big picture, Machine is actually part of the Universe itself. So what is the real purpose of the Universe?

Artificial Intelligence can only be defined as such when compared to something that is not artificial. But who's to say human intelligence is real? It's all relative. These are the types of concepts the whole A.I. theme taps into. Fun, yes?

Your theory about Trinity being the mother is very interesting. If she is, it seems it would have to be beyond her own awareness, as she herself has her own unanswered questions about her world. Trippy. I'll roll that one around...

Marty MC FlyJun 05, 2003 at 8:37PM

Just come to my mind...

If Neo had choosed another door, Trinity would have died by falling on the car...from this point of view, I think that trinity is more important...maybe she is mother of matrix (probably she is really pregnant)...I mean the only reason of neo's choice in the Architect room is not because of falling in love with Trinity...maybe he realized the mother concept...

Spoon BoyJun 05, 2003 at 8:38PM

...OK, I rolled it around.

Ted, check out The Animatrix piece entitled "A Detective Story". We meet Trinity back in the good old days, before she comes out of the Matrix. Watch that and then let us know what you think of your theory about Trinity being the "intuitive program" that makes her "undoubtedly" the Matrix's mother.

Regarding all the talk about the nested reality theory,

Don't think of it as a purely mechanical "matrix-within-a-matrix" concept. Think of it as an "intelligence-within-an-intelligence". Arguably the same thing, but the former invokes a different idea to people since it sounds so physical.

Brian LibfeldJun 05, 2003 at 11:48PM

As films, The Wachowskis' Matrices most closely resemble George Lucas's Star Wars, James Cameron's Titantic, Peter Jackson's LoTR movies, Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek films & series, and Sam Raimi's Spider-Man.
>>>

I'd be more inclined to say they resemble Dante's Inferno, Purgatorio and Paradisio, although I have to admit to not reading all three. Also, I'm speculating a third level of existence in the third. I started to go into this on the feralboy.com thread... http://feralboy.com/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=232

Aside from those there is a clear Lewis Carrol Through the Looking Glass and Alice in Wonderland parallel. On the commercial for the animatrix dvd the tagline is "See how deep the Rabbit hole goes." In the Final Flight of Osiris the question is posed whats 4 miles directly below the surface. Notably when Alice is falling down the rabbit hole she speculates as to how far she has fallen. In the annotated Alice there is a note going into the science of the period and the approximate mesure that Carrol would have had on hand for the distance to the center of the earth is 4,000 miles. 4 miles to Zion, 4,000 to the center of the earth.

As for everyone denying the dream-within-a-dream ending, I haven't seen much any canonical evidence for that. You can pull plenty to support it though. (Neo's EMP, Smith in the Real World, the Oracle knowing NEo's dreams, the pro robot slant of the history movies - The Second Renaisaance - in the Zion archive, the Kid's transubstantiation (sp?), Trinity being compared with the red queen in a Detective's Story, the weak logic of the human battery/blacking out the sky)

But, to make the Alice point worthwhile at the end of Alice in Wonderland it is a dream-within-a-dream but it isn't a Newhart style wake up to wake up again variation. (This isn't that scene at the radio station from Night of the Comet.) When Alice wakes up with her head in her sisters lap she is actually awake (Neo in Zion, out of the Matrix.) But then her sister closes her eyes and is dreaming in Wonderland even though she was never there. Its called a variation. It changes the mold. I don't pretend to know what the next movie will bring, but I would like to see some evidence arguing against the Zion is in the Matrix ideas that goes deeper than "cause it would be really cheesy."

CoreyJun 06, 2003 at 12:13AM

Not that I buy into the whole second matrix thing, but I'd like to throw this out there: What if the first matrix and the "Zion matrix" are not one inside the other, but side by side, and when someone leaves the first matrix he enters the Zion one?

CoreyJun 06, 2003 at 12:17AM

Thinking back on my last post, I realize that a side-by-side matrix would not be all that different from a matrix inside a matrix, but I'd still like to hear opinions if anyone has them.

TackaberryJun 06, 2003 at 3:33AM

I think the computers need neo. It s not a conflict at all. The problem, I think is agency. It s the frame problem I suspect. the programs can react and make choices based on inputs. but how is that first choice made? Neo is the one for the machines as much as he is the one for the humans. I think the movie is about the machines trying, unsuccessfully, to understand Agency. He provides the whole thing with agency. The whole thing is contingent on Neo making an original choice (it s a loop) the original choice is save Trinity or reset the system. Both are based on emotion. Machines can t start or reset the process because they dont have true agency. For them there is no choice. they judge inputs and act accordingly. theoretically they could figure all the choices they will make into the futre, meaning all that is left is understaqnding. Only Neo can provide agency, via emotion (the W bros answer to the frame problem). there are at least 5 perhaps 6 people in the movie that can in effect re write the matrix. these re-writings over the long term create anomilies. Eventually it has to resetted, or over infinity it gets completely fucked up. Machines/computers don t have agency, so they can t start it themselves. Neo may be the only real human.
Agent Smith I think is an anomily created by the animoly (Neo). This I will suggest is unprecedented. I think we will find that both have the capacity to restart or destroy the Matrix. The third movie will be a matter of which plays out first. A contest betwen anomlies. Smith now has agency (cutting his hands for a new destiny). Smith has agency and will make a decision based on hate, Neo has agency, will make a decision based on love.

Merv is the first one. He is the computer s attempt to understand agency via emotion. But he failed, and defends this failure by suggesting that humans don t really have agency either, emotions is just biological code (the cake). It s jsut humans don t understand the why, how the inputs affect htem. Besides, the first 5 did choose the most logical door....
Persephone was designed to evoke emotion and therefore agency from Merv, but this all failed. Persephone felt it in the kiss though, becoming a believer in human agency.
You have the oracle and Pers against Merv in his Satan role, waiting for this debate among the programs to conclude.

the Arcitect is Freud archytpe in my mind, trying to understand the human mind.

the computers need Neo to provide Agency to their system. They have tried to understand it themselves, but failed. Neo is the One for the machines, not the humans. In fact, Neo could very well be the only human, the only thing with agency, in the whole system (except not Smith I will posit).

jessieJun 06, 2003 at 3:58AM

I'm glad that others caught the unknown man being lead away while Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity were approaching the Merovingian. Could this guy be a possible key player to the Matrix?

Has anyone else noticed that Ghost and Niobe are prominent in the trailer and teaser for Revolutions suggesting that the Matrix will in fact be _reloaded_ ? The both died along with the crewmen when the sentinels dropped the bomb. Perhaps they are reloaded which explains their appearance in the trailers.

Just A Thought

Ged ByrneJun 06, 2003 at 6:02AM

Some more ideas. Probably contradicting myself, but I've only believed 5 impossible things so far this morning and it will soon be time for breakfast :)

On the subject of the machines needing humans, I've noticed one thing strange about Smith. He isn't behaving like a virus. He duplicates himself like a virus, sure, but his isn't mutating.

The power of the virus is in it's ability to mutate and adapt, Smith isn't doing this. In the Burly Brawl we see an overpowering number of Smiths trying to defeat Neo yet not one of them can. Neo always seems to be one step ahead.

Contrast this with all the screens in the architects room. So many variations of Neo all slightly different. While this vast majority might get it wrong, it only takes on to make the leap and dominate. Natural selection at work, evolution in its purest form.

The strange thing is that we understand all of this now. We now how to write programs that use natural selection to solve problems.

However, the machines just don't seem to be very good at solving problems. As Morpheus points out about the Squids heading for Zion 'One for every man woman and child in Zion, that sounds like machine thinking to me.' There thinking is linear, like the Cylons in Battlestar Gallatica it makes the machines all to easy to beat in a fight.

Consider for a second the scorched sky, and the solution of using humans as batteries. As has already been pointed out, this is a terrible solution. Other species could make much better batteries. Forget that, the earch core could provide plenty of power. Forget that, they only need to build a rocket or to to puch past the scorched skys and there's all the solar energy the could ever possibly need. Yet the machines are just too stupid to see it.

Except of course, the machines don't see it that way. As the architect says, they are simply bound by the paramaters of perfection. It is not perfection that binds them, it is arrogance and prejudice.

The machines do have intuitive programs, programs that can solve real problems but these are looked down upon. The architect refers to the mother of the Matrix as a 'lesser mind.' His response to the Oracles name is scorn.

These intuitive programs are superior to the run of the mill 'perfect' programs. Note that while Neo can beat agents with ease he is unable to defeat the Oracles guardian.

I think there is an internal struggle within the Matrix. The linear code dominates, and uses its power to keep down the intuitive programs. A bit lot the world we live in really. However, these intuitive programs are smart, and they're fighting a clever battle.

They are certainly smart eneough to know that they're are much better ways to harness humans than as batteries. Again, an alegory for our industrialised society that reduces humans to nothing more than a single unit of labour.

They probably figured out long ago that by working with humanity they could have themselves a rocket to the sun and all the power they ever need.

Now that Smith has occupied a human body, has he become more human. In Revolutions will Neo face a Smith capable of mutating, adapting and growing. A far more forbidable foe!

Regarding a Matrix within a Matrix:

The ideas of the Matrix preceed computers by quite a few millenium. The Matrix just uses computers as a way of making these ideas concrete. Perhaps the Machines, the Matrix and Zion are all in something else, but not another Matrix. Perhaps the next level out is the spiritual world, a world that was around long before computers were invented.

It comes down to the same reductionist via holistic arguments as above.

The architect and Merovigian see humans purely in reductionist terms. Everything about them can be explained in terms of deterministic physical activities within the human body. Synapses, hormones, cause and effect.

What if there are more to humans, a spiritual element outside of the body: a soul.

Is anybody familiar with the Mormon teaching of What God was, we are now. What God is, we shall become? http://www.irr.org/mit/neuhaus.html .

Perhaps the real world is wrapped up inside something else, but it isn't another Matrix.

This would explain how the future outside of the Matrix can be seen, and how dead people can appear in the next film.

Time for breakfast.

Biff BiffmanJun 06, 2003 at 7:33AM

Tackaberry says: "agency" 15 times

GhostJun 06, 2003 at 10:25AM

Has anyone else noticed that Ghost and Niobe are prominent in the trailer and teaser for Revolutions suggesting that the Matrix will in fact be _reloaded_ ? The both died along with the crewmen when the sentinels dropped the bomb. Perhaps they are reloaded which explains their appearance in the trailers.

Jessie,
Niobe and Ghost are still alive. I'm not sure where you got the inpression that they died, but at the end of the video game they finish the task of placing the bomb and then they have to outrun oncoming squids. They nerowly escape by using the EMP and then have to sit and wait because thay are lost. The last thing said by Ghost to Niobe is "So what happens next"? Niobe says somthing like "we'll just have to wait and see", and they skip to the new trailer for the Revolutions movie.

AnonJun 06, 2003 at 12:50PM

Wouldn't it be smarter of the machines to have everyone in thier own seperate matrix, where not even the other people are real?

TackaberryJun 06, 2003 at 3:10PM

Tackaberry says: "agency" 15 times

My degree in Philosophy made Agency a 5 dollar word.

By my math I have to use it 5985 more times to get my moneys worth.


And I plan to :)

Brisvegas1Jun 06, 2003 at 3:24PM

OK, so according to the IMDB there are 1,943 names in the credits, but what I want to know is who is the guy being led away by one of the Merovingian's henchmen in the restaurant scene?. (The link contains a screen captured image of the man in question)

There is a very significant look exchanged between Neo and the mystery dude and a sound effect... so surely he must be important.

It's almost like one of those cat blips from the first film.

If I had to pick anyone we have met from the first film - I would say that the dude is the "blind" guardian outside the Oracle's apartment that Morpheus nods to.

But he may be from the game or the next movie.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Brisvegas1Jun 06, 2003 at 3:35PM

Also

Agent Smith says to Neo -

We're not here because we're free, we're here because we're not free. There is no escaping this system.

He says this after we see him pudding Baine and escape to zion, supposedly in the "real world."

So does this just indicate a lack of communication between the Smth/Baine in Zion and the Smiths in the Matrix? ..... Or is it a hint?

A hint that Zion is not really an escape from "the matrix" that it is just another programmed reality... One that is so different from the "matrix" that the humans accept it.

Ordinary humans have no way of knowing that they are in the matrix. Remember "no one can be told what the matrix is, no one can be shown"... people have to make a choice.. a leap of faith. They have to take the red pill.

So they have no way of knowing that they are out of the matrix when they wake up in the "real world".

Lets hope that Reloaded Explained is updated soon.... because I would really like to know what the alternative to the matrix in a matrix theory is.

Brian LibfeldJun 06, 2003 at 4:22PM

No one is going to read this far down, but here are my responses to everything I just read: (with each issues seperates by a + sign)

+
"remember when in the 1st matrix film, morpheus tells neo of the person that freed the first of "us"."

I'm not sure. I think you may be referring to the original Messiah character he references who could manipulate the Matrix. If this is the case then the one he is looking for is the Messiah of the second coming, a very christian idea. Zion though is the name of the Jewish home state. For the Jews, the Zionists, the Messiah never came, and they are still waiting for the first coming. Assuming Neo ulfills that role (which we are being led to doubt by the anumatrix and the video game) then he would be there to bring about some sort of ending for the people of Zion.

Now, following this lead then if there was no actual first Messiah, but a false prophet, then that serves to back up the Zion is in the Matrix idea. Then the prophecy, and Neo (or the spoon kid or the kid from Kid's story), exist to free not the Matrix but rather Zion. Hence Neo's powers in the "real world" of Zion.
+
"I think the oracle is on the human's side... plus, it's the oracle narrating the trailer for Revolutions! and she's tellin neo to fight Smith, who, as a i mentioned earlier, is quite parallel to neo."

Well, first, I think we can all agree that what is happening to Smith is an unforseen anomaly. (of course we can't, but I'll pretend) Neo was a predicted anomaly. Smith is an unpredicted anomoly, a bug that allowed for the admission of a virus. Now, the Oracle is a program, and part of being a program is bringing the 'a to b' thereby fulfilling the Matrix's purpose. Therfore she would have a valid reason to want Smith defeated because he is a program, a virus, that unlike the Mergovian's (sp?) is actually unaccounted for. So, if that happens to be the case, and we can all agree, than there is no evidence to suggest that the Oracle is on Neo or the humans side.
+
"Lipstick as cake - Persephone/Monica Belluci's kiss."

We assume that Persephone betrays the Mergovian. Why, because she and the Mergovian tell us that is the case. Are you on crack? Didn't you read 'catcher in the rye?' Both the Oracle to the Mergovian are trying to get Neo to consume, there may be other exapmles. The candy on the bench and the food at the table are the ones I'm referencing. We see how programs can function on different levels through the cake example. Then Persephone egregiously takes a minute of close up action camera time putting on lipstick before making Neo submit to kissing her and orally consuming some of the lipstick. Why hasn't anyone openly leapt to the reasonable conclusion that Neo is now under the influence of whatever program could have been activated and the catalysed reaction in him by the lipstick? What that programs purpose may be I have no way of knowing, but its too obvious.

I was a little put off that there wasn't a direct response, but maybe we can't see it until were looking back with the information provided in Revolutions.
+
"I don't believe the images of the other Neos are his predecessors, but merely the Architect's predictions of his possible responses (they all say "bullshit!" to "You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed...", because denial is the most predictable)."

So what you are saying is that the Architect is such a poorly designed program that the only option he can see Neo pursuing there is denial and specifically manifesting it through the use of the word bullshit? If those screens represent all of NEo's possible reactions, well, no, thats bullshit, because ven if there is a probability of 1 that Neo would respond bullshit the Architect would still have contingencies established for all possible responses, not just the one most probable.
+
"Dream within a dream - At the very least it would be inconsistent with the creative genius we've seen so far from the W brothers. My best guess is that Neo has power over the machines in the real world because the mind is a powerful thing."

So, what you are saying is that in a movie where the entire premise was the world isn't real, its a simulation that it would be inconsistent to say well, maybe the real reality is also a simulation? That it would be more consistent to say that the real world is not only real but powers inherent and limited to the simulation will work there too? And you can have some cotton candy if you like as well, just click your heels together three times, cause hey, that'll get you home and a cup of coffee in the real world too?
+
"The spoon kid and all the others at the Oracle's apartment were refered to as "the other potentials". Potential whats? Potential "Ones"? I think these were other recently "freed minds" consulting the Oracle just like he was (mostly young- freed before they get to a certain age). Thus, the "spoon kid" was in Zion, and wanted to remind Neo that there is no spoon. Not just in the Matrix, but in reality."

Potential ones. We see them manipulating the Matrix possibly without the benefit of Morpheus' (or some other ture believer's) tutelage. They are natural adepts, like (i'm a geek) Raistlan Majere. The way we can gauge if they are jacked in or still in the Matrix is to look at their clothes and body images. They are being brought to the Oracle to see if she will tell them they are the one. Think back to one of Keanu's earlier works, Little Buddah, for examples of this sort of thing.
+
"Exactly. Just so. Anyway, it may be that Zion is electronic, or it may not be. Either way, it is an extension of a control system. I'm just not convinced that it's inside another neural simulation."

Assuming that the first incarnation of Zion was outside of the machines control, and the machines can learn, then building that reality into the Matrix (the hated onion skin theory) would be sensible. Humans reject the Matrix because the suffering isn't real. They made it plain that most of Zion is not a happy place. The food people bring to Neo - that he tells them they need more than him - those are the huddled starving masses who live each day waiting for the machines to burst through the walls and destroy them. They are starving and fearful for their lives and have no time or energy, much less desire, to contemplate that now that they are out of the Matrix that maybe they aren't actually. Its a recursive fix.
+
"101 was Neo's apartment number.
303 was Trinity's hotel room number.
101+303=404"

Or, alternately, Trinity is usually representative of the father, son and holy ghost/mother, maiden and crone triptych. In those instances, which are a large part of western culture, the 3 are actually 1. So, the 3 in Trinity's room number would actually be a 1, 101 all over again. This could be speaking to a inherent connection between Neo and Trinity.
+
"I still say though, that computer program or not, intelligence = soul = "real"."

That is a reasonable assumption. You should read the Aestheticists (sp?) in philosphy, Ponty, Hegel, Focoult. They deal heavily with the concept of original vs copies and the definitions of Real. In the animatrix, in "matriculated" one of the characters makes the point that for the machines all reality is virtual, and thereby virtual reality, like the Matrix, is as real for the machines - say the agents - as the Zion world is for the squiddies. The difference that occurs is possibly that Smith through his interactions with Neo is now able to differentiate.
+
"If Neo is the One, then everything else must be nothing "

See, now there is a point worth making. Were in a binary world and the signifigance of that name should be looked at in binary terms. Sweet.

But Neo isn't the one. I know I may get jumped on for saying this, because many people are spoon fed believers (much like I usually am) but the Oracle tells Neo he isn't the one. She never tells him he is, only that she told him what he needed to hear. I doubt the programs can lie, they can only give prepared answers. If you accept the things the architect say as facts then you need to accept the things the Oracle says as fact as well and that holds true that Neo is not the one, hence he is a zero, concurently he is nothing. Vis a vis. Had to add a vis a vis.
+
"Anyone who recognizes a good movie and knows well the elements that make such a film, knows that Matrix Reloaded is not that good.... However, The Matrix Reloaded focused too much on special effects/action "

I see, thats why I've been reading people on this board talk about nothing but the special effects for... 4 hours now? Thats why all these posts don't linger on small story elements, but rather the cgi and escalade... oh wait, they don't. Only the people who have opinions and are scrolling by without reading what others have said - waiting to be heard instead of listening - say that. Were discussing here. Go have a banana.

God. I'm being a dick. Oh well. Thats my *choice*. Or, maybe, its the way god made me. Golly, thats a can of worms, isn't it?
+
"Neo doesn't see code when he says something is different and drops them and goes into a coma"

If Zion is inside the Matrix than Neo's powers in the traditional Matrix of M1 were programed into him, and those powers not functioning in Zion are progamed as well. Him manifesting those powers in the Zion world are the prophecy, which is false in the M1 matrix, manifesting for real in the M2 matrix.
+
"I have my doubts as to whether Revolutions will end in the same way The Matrix began. It simply wouldn't make sense in narrative terms."

Have you read all 5 books of the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy series? It does make sense in Narrative terms. And the bit about seeing his apartment now numbered 110 takes it that necessary step further.
+
"SPOILER She says about how his mind is now trapped between the Matrix and the real world. Hense another program making the distinction that Zion is the real world. /SPOILER"

Or that since he went into the coma outside of the matrix and entirely unplugged from the Matrix that he is trapped between the Real Real World and the Matrix of Zion. Again, "Wipe your glasses with what you know." -Joyce.
+
"that wonderful cheezefest Hackers where the kids try to bring down the "Gibson" by hitting it with a "rabbit" virus that propogates until it fills up the memory. Logic dictates that unless destroyed, the Smiths will one day fill up the Matrix and thus destroy it. Although with all their hopping around, it's a wonder that the Agents haven't filled landfills with their IMI Desert Eagles and skinny ties."

Totally! I once used the tank code in grand theft auto until the street was so full of tanks that they were piled three high and somewhere between 50 and a hundred tanks the PS2 crashed and my game file got corrupted (since tanks save through restarts) So, by that token maybe Smith is the only one who can actually crash the Matrix. Solid.
+
"What if Neo simply kills himself, making the supreme sacrifice to remove The One from the equation and remove the issue of Choice from the Architect's design?"

I'm pretty sure Keanu already made that movie. They don't want to so accurately retread ground. "I'm a lawyer; thats my job, its what I do!." Al Pacino as "The Architecht."
+
"the character that Smith possessed was actually named Cain, not Bane(Bain). Sort of puts a more Cain and Able spin on that connection."

No, check the IMDb, it was Bane - played by Ian Bliss. Do a google on Ian Bliss and find his picks and unsuprisingly it is the same actor who played Bane.
+
"If the "apartment 110" theory is correct, and the 3rd movie ends where the first began (albeit at the next iteration of the matrix), why did the directors end episode 2 with "to be concluded" rather than the more traditional "to be continued"?"

Because just like back to the future when we see Marty get in the car and go back to the past as at the beginning of the movie we don't follow him, we wait and see the slight difference, that SPOILER Doc read the note /SPOILER.

We are not gonna keep REVOLVING in a circle like that, we close the circle and look at it from the outside, and in doing see the door number has changed. So, I guess its not a circle, which would be a continuation infinitely, but rather a spiral and a conclusion to the story as we know it. Until someone throws several hundred million more dollars on the W's deak and says make me a saturday morning cartoon/hbo animated series/a line of breakfast cereals. (branded after Ceres, who is Persephone's Mom? I wonder if Monica Belluci's mom is hot? Its questions like this that MOST undermine my points... isn't it?)
+
"I think the 101 theory is good but it is just too much. Maybe the Wachowski Brothers don't even know what binary code is."

Since what Neo sees (green charcters) is modeled on binary code (if you've ever looked at the base source code of files on your computer) its likely they know a bit or two about binary code. 011000010111001101110011!.
+
Re: Amy's racism argument

Well I don't disagree with some racist elements I think the overwhelming of minorities, and especially blacks in the Zion environment has a lot to do with the racist mechanisms in the actual Matrix. The minorities are more likely to have reason to question reality because their reality is worse than the average white Matrix dweller. But, just like Jesus, Neo had to be painted white so that the mass audiences would buy into it. And, whos more whitewashed than Keanu (No, hes great. I love him. Hes a good kid.)

Now, wheres my pu...
+
"What was up with that guy being lead away when Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity were approaching the table The Merovingian was sitting at?"

I had that same question and plan on looking for it when I go to try and see the IMAX version. For now I just assume it was the keymaker, but that doesn't seem right.
+
"kernel : The essential center of a computer operating system that provides the basic services for all other parts."

Spoon Boy... I... I love you man...
+
"One other thing, can anybody tell me where to get a copy of Animatrix?"

Its currently showing on the In Demand channel on Digital Cable throughout New York and I would imagine most of the USA.
+
Re: The Video Game -
"Yes, I'm sure Neo is the "special child". The Oracle doesn't come out and say it like that. But, in the scenes where she is talking to Ghost or Niobe (which are at the same spots in the video game), she is talking about the path of The One, and saying she is preparing Ghost, Niobe and others for this path too. She says the path of The One is paved by the many."

I spoke to a few people who played the game and they interpreted this differently (again, damn my lack of a console gaming system). They took the whole thing to imply either the Kid of Kid's Story or the there is no Spoon Kid to be who is being spoken about, and not Neo. But hey, I guess I just need to consume... Mmmmm... video games... and find out for myself.
+
I didn't read link_a_likes posts because the spelling was giving me a headache...
+
"I don't think there is time to show that she is pregnant. Revolutions can only happen in less than 24 hours. Neo said so himself."

I don't know if this is necessarily the case. I would have to watch the trailer again. The long hall/street with Smith lining the sides and Neo and 1 Smith talking battling in the trailer, it occurs to me, could be an actual in coma interaction. Since Neo and Bane/Smith are incapacitated in the same way there may be a bond there. I'm just suggesting here and need to see more to develop this idea. I do think that'll be right at the beginning of Revolutions if I'm right and accordingly showing it in the trailer then wouldn't give too much away.
+
"The film is about redemption"

In Western/Christian interpretations sure, its about redemtion, but then why all the Eastern imagery. Does the redemptive schema hold up when you look at it in that light?
+
Isn't a recursive loop, the paradox that ruins most time travel stories as an example, one of the major things that could overwhelm a system and make it crash? Like when I used to MUD you could ping someone and they could set up a response to that ping. If you set your response to 'ping me' and then pinged yourself once the system would eventually crash. They took that out eventually, but it took a few (more than 6 I bet) major system crashes for them to get a grip on it. Its not a matrix within a matrix, its a recursive loop building toward a crashed system. Smith is the anamoly that allows for that to stop. Hes ctrl + x. A thought with no basis in fact.
+
"The end of Reloaded was a great piece of redirection to make everybody think Matrix inside a Matrix. In reality it is the other hovership that EGMs the squids. It is Smith/Bane that Neo feels."

As much as I want to argue, and do argue?, the onion skin matrix in a matrix take on things, what you suggest is whats been lingering in the back of my head as the most reasonable outcome.
+
On Sion as an interesting spelling in Agrippa's post:

Here is the etymology of the word Zion:
Zion - O.E. Sion, from Gk. Seon, from Heb. Tsiyon, name of a Canaanite hill fortress in Jerusalem captured by David and called in the Bible "City of David." Zionism "movement for forming (later supporting) a Jewish national state in Palestine" coined 1896.
+
"Recall that tank and his brother in the original had no plugs"

Recall that Neo and everybody in the Matrix had no plugs. If the Zion is in the Matrix then they have to account for freeborns like Tank as thats a part of free humanity, so some owuld have plugs and some wouldn't as to maintain the illusion.
+
"Silver wil absolutely positively not bet his Frank Lloyd Wright mansion on some geeky boy wet dream of a nihilistic cyberpunk onionskin "revolution means-no-human-beings-we're-all-machines" ending."

Oh yeah. I forgot. Sigh...
+
"Another thing that i will investigate is about the ENTER THE MATRIX game if you play as niobe, the Oricle will tell her that when Neo leaves the Architect HIS MIND WILL BE SPLIT BETWEEN THE MATRIX AND THE REAL WORLD."

Wait, so Neo actually goes through Both doors? A binary split... he makes the zero (resetting the matrix) decesion and the 1 (saving Trinity) one?
+
"However, I think that it was actually spelled Z10N0101, with a '1' in place of an 'I'. That probably doesn't matter, does it?"

Well, it might. With Binary you generate and alpha character with 8 characters, each a 0 or a 1. Now, if you translate the z and the n out you have 16. You add the 0101 at the end on and you have 20. The 1 that replaces the i becomes 21 and the 0 can either be taken as a 0 or a 1, which leaves us with either a total of 22 charactes, which is gibberish, or 29 characters, which is also gibberish, but possible less so, since 24 should make 4 alpha characters. Damn, now I have to stop criticizing and think some... brb...

anyway, some combinations of letters and numbers may bring us some clue. zion0101, z1on0101, z10n01010. Now, to have it not come back to exactly this at least one of the zeros or ones has to remain a zero and a one, but not all of them do. 0 and 1 as alpha characters have 8 bit binary representations, so some combination that brings us a set of characters that are a multiple of 8 would seem to be the way to go.
+
"In The Animatrix's "Kid's Story" piece, pay close attention to what the teacher is writing on the chalkboard."

Dude, I'd have to rent it again, just tell us... just put SPOILER and /SPOILER around it... sigh.
+
"I can't imagine that the folks in Zion wouldn't have thought of this, and wouldn't have invested time, research, and effort into determining whether or not the matrix was many levels deep."

When did they have time to think about it? With the robots pretty much perpetually at the door? Its a good point, and thats why labor unions came about, but it takes time, probably more than the preprogrammed reboot cycle that Neo represents. Hes a seconds hand.
+
"We meet Trinity back in the good old days, before she comes out of the Matrix."

Not at all, the detective's who are mentioned have 3 fates, the middle one is evidence that this is after she has awakened from the Matrix.

Brian LibfeldJun 06, 2003 at 4:44PM

I just reread my post... and I complain about someone else's spelling... sheesh.

DaveJun 06, 2003 at 5:41PM

1) I'm still not buying that it's going to be a Matrix within a Matrix. I can see it happening, but I don't think it will.

How about this: if Zion is just another Matrix, then its point of existing would be for the small small minority of people who realize that their world is fake. It would exist to convince these people that there is a real world and that they should be happy living in it. Except that, for one, their lives become centered on freeing other minds, which tends to involve killing LOTS of civilians, like the security guards in the office building in the 1st film or everyone on the highway in the second. And if they die then the machines lose one more coppertop. Secondly, and more importantly, the point of the outer matrix is entirely to convince the people who are freed that this world is real. Then is STILL doesn't make sense that Neo can use magical electricity to zap the squiddies. Why would there be some kind of program built in that lets him have special powers no one believes are possible? Someone please explain why the Zion matrix would allow him to manifest super powers is is purpose is to convince people that it's not a matrix.

2) In the first movie Morpheus refers to someone who long ago learned to manipulate the matrix and freed the first of them. I think that this person he is referring to is actually Neo's predecessor, the 5th One. I'm guessing that after re-creating Zion and rebooting the Matrix, the One's last job is to find the first few people who are rejecting the simulation and to free them and put them in Zion.

GhostJun 06, 2003 at 5:59PM

Encore.....

Brian Libfeld, the only thing that you didn't comment on is whether or not something was uploaded into Neo when he died at room 303. Since I agreed with much of what you said I’d like to read it. Some say it was a program that just before the point of death was loaded into him "like Smith was loaded into C/Bane". I personally think that it was a soul or power of some sorts. Since knowledge is power perhaps it was the knowledge of knowing 100% that the Matrix isn't real, and the bullets can't kill.

Also no comment on the Oracle knowing that Trinity would fall in love.




“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.”

Brisvegas1Jun 06, 2003 at 6:55PM

WOW - there is a great review online by Slavoj Žižek he is a philosopher and psychoanalyst.

Slavoj's review is a good counterpoint to the "Reloaded Explained" analysis, which is the best argument I've read so far against the onion-skin, matrix within a matrix theory. (Mind you I still don't agree - I'm almost sure that there is another break-through to be made, like the one from the matrix to Zion.)

ExtantJun 06, 2003 at 7:38PM

In reply to Brian;

Good post I felt a review of the various ideas, arguments, theories proposed in ignorance etc. was long overdue. Personally just to get it out of the way I thought the movie was stunning, thought-provoking, not without flaws, but with the potential when revolutions comes out to be part of a ground-breaking, mind-blowing trilogy.
OK that's my fanzine article out of the way;
1:You mentioned the guy being led away as Neo and Co. arrive at the Merovingian's table, I'm very interested in him also but I keep missing a reference in the credits. Do you think he could be the same guy who talks to Niobe in the game, making a reference to how long Zion lasted the last time? I'd be very surprised if we don't see him in the next movie.
2:You also put forward the possibility that Neo and Smith, when they fight in the 'long hall/street' as a possible coma interaction. I don't think that's going to be the case, as in an interview with Hugo Weaving the actor gave away one or two hints about revolutions, mentioning that the rain in that particular scene was deliberately made 'chubby' to reflect the degeneration of the matrix. (thus when the architect told Neo the Matrix would collapse if he chose the door etc. etc. he meant a slow degeneration over 24 hrs or something, as opposed to what a lot of people thought, ie instant destruction) , and further confirming that by the time of revolutions he as Smith will have totally taken over the matrix.
3: I really don't think it was a ship EMP that felled those sentinels at the end, mainly because of the way Neo braces and reacts as if he's stopping them with sheer force of will, but also of course it would have meant the temporary(at least) deactivation of that ship, plus add the whole "I can feel them" and "it's a bomb" and it's pointing more and more towards his abilities than any other theory. As for the whole 'is Zion another Matrix' vs. 'Neo can stop sentinels 'cos he swapped code with Smith' I just have to go with the former, as how can a real human body transmit a signal to the sentinels to stop, or sense them for that matter?

Finally I have a theory which I quite like, saw on another discussion thread, and which hasn't appeared on this thread so far ( I think!) It harps back to ideas of Asimov, as in machines having inbuilt limits as to what level of damage they can inflict on the human race. Maybe their programming simply forbids wilful and total genocide of their creators, so instead they create the Matrix to contain us instead. (one of the things I like about this is it does away with the frankly silly idea of them needing us for energy). Killing Zion every so often is ok 'cos they still got 5 billion other humans left. Yet this is a state of affairs that doesn't suit them, surely they want to be free of humanity completely and not have to worry about dealing with systemic problems in the matrix like choice, so after 5 cycles of the matrix they've manipulated The One to the point where he'll take the door that leads to the destruction of the human race, thus taking the decision out of their hands (at least to a point where they can go along with it). This explains why the Architect wasn't shocked by Neo taking the wrong door, that's exactly how he'd planned things. Where this theory leaves us in the third film is debatable, but maybe Smith will mess things up, or as this is the first time Neo has taken that door he will develope abilities that the machines didn't forsee, but that will allow him to stop their plan. Either way I cannot wait.

Oh and for all those who continue to put this movie down;
Remember this is half of one five hour movie.
Kindly realise that this is cutting edge CGI so stop knocking the best in the field. The Wachowskis are pushing the boundaries, taking us closer to seamless CGI action, and if all you want is Hong Kong realism, then go to the Bruce Lee section of your moviemaster store or whatever.
Thank God and all the angels in heaven that finally there is an movie for intelligent people. (sorry if that sounds snobbish but I firmly believe the more intelligent you are the more you get out of that movie) If you don't fall into that category then don't worry, I hear ignorance is bliss anyway.
Sorry but really some of the reasons I've seen for not liking this movie.....

Oh and I might be preaching to the converted or whatever, but I think anyone who likes accurate relegious references, layered plots and just general coolness among other things should really try Neil Gaiman's The Sandman graphic novels. Just a thought.

lofty (Adam Lofstedt)Jun 06, 2003 at 7:58PM

Brian said: I don't pretend to know what the next movie will bring, but I would like to see some evidence arguing against the Zion is in the Matrix ideas that goes deeper than "cause it would be really cheesy."

Read my post above. If the people of Zion were freed and figured out that their reality was just a program, then it would certainly make them think about further levels of matrices. They certainly would have investigated this possibility already and concluded that there is only one matrix. This is further supported after watching the Animatrix short "World Record", where the narrator tells the audience that:

"Only the most exceptional people become aware of the matrix. Those that learn it exists must posess a rare degree of intuition."

Give the freed people some credit, they are not that gullible.

Tackaberry says:
I think the computers need neo. It s not a conflict at all. The problem, I think is agency.

Thank you Tackaberry! I think you better watch yourself or else the Ws willl be coming after you for spoiling their plot. Your post is excellently explained, and is in-line with where I think the Ws are going with the story line. The Animatrix short "Matriculated", in which a machine is caught by humans and its mind reprogrammed through a human-made matrix shows that the Ws are focusing on the relationship between humans and machines, and how both are trying to understand each other better. Onion-skinning the plot does nothing to further resolve this understanding.

TedJun 06, 2003 at 8:16PM

Whew! How do you keep up with these posts? ;)

Ghost 303: When I saw Reloaded the second time, I noticed that there seemed to be at least 3 "modes" of screens behind Neo. One is when they screens simply display various screens from history - either Neo's past or human history (Hitler, etc...). A second mode is where all the screens seem to simply mimic the "current" Neo's movements. In this second mode, the camera angle is fixed and distant - almost from The Architects POV. The third mode is where there are various Neos who seem to be responding to the Architect in different ways.

lofty: Yes, I agree, it wouldn't be hard conceptually for for The Matrix to be infinitely recursive (wouldn't there be a stack overflow?) and I also agree that the W's wouldn't retread this like so many others (what about Groundhog Day?). However, I think it would be an interesting twist if there were only 2 matrices. Aren't 2 matrices sufficient? Ultimately, however, I suspect the W's will simply leave the issue open and ambiguous. Anyone willing to bet that this one will simply be open to interpretation after Revolutions?

As to whether people would be gullible enough to simply accept Zion if it were another Matrix... why wouldn't they be? For 99.9% of the people, there doesn't appear to be anything incongruous in The Matrix to cause them to doubt it as reality. And it doesn't seem like any character (even The Kid) has really broken free of The Matrix on her/his own.

BEGIN SPOILER
Spoon Boy: I just watched "Detective Story" again. What do you think? It's not really strong evidence either way, but there are hints that Trinity might be a program and possibly even the "Mother of the Matrix". There are multiple references to Trinity as "The Red Queen". And there's this quote from the crazy detective: "Trinity... doesn't exist, man. He's not real. He's a... a figment of cypher... Jabberwocky... And another thing. I've always wondered at the significance of Trinity's name. Could she be "Mother, Daughter, and Holy Ghost?"
END SPOILER

Tackaberry: Very interesting discussion about Agency. In my mind,
framing the issue of Agency in regards to both Agent Smith and Neo
provides a nice balance. I'm still struggling with how Agent Smith
fits in, but what you've said has given me a lot to chew on...

I would still maintain that the purpose of The Matrix is not as a power source, but something deeper and more philosophical. Agency as framed by love and hate is an awfully good candidate.

TedJun 06, 2003 at 8:19PM

A friend of mine also noticed something in the Matrix Revolutions trailer (not the end of credits trailer, but the one that can be found out on the web).

There's a scene with what looks like Trinity and Neo sitting in a ship in the tunnels with at least one and possibly several Sentinals rushing straight at their window. One sentinal stops abruptly just short of the window shooting electricity and sparks just like when Neo stops The Sentinals in Reloaded. The ship looks like it is being rocked pretty hard. Here's the funny thing:

Neo appears to be blindfolded.

DanJun 06, 2003 at 8:50PM

Hmm. I've been struggling to avoid asking questions for fear of them being answered, but after reading the 236th comment (took me a couple of days) I realized that by the time I'm done, there's going to be no discussion left.

A few points and questions:

1. In Col. Sanders rec room with all the TVs, Neo is given a choice between two doors, yes. And the Architect gives a lengthy speech about hope and the ontogeny of Neo's choice. But if you read the transcript (links above), you'll see that the Architect never actually spells out *where* he expects Neo to go. Both courses of reaction are dependent on hope, no?

2. It bothered me that Neo's character arc in 1 went from "regular guy" to guy who can stop bullets and fly, whereas TMR, we learn that he can ... gasp! stop bullets and fly! I don't know what I wanted him to be able to do, but he should have been able to do more: some sort of Superman heat vision or additional superpower beyond stopping more bullets and flying faster
(In one Empire Strikes Back callback, during the castle fight, he motioned to a sword on the wall which then flew to him. Yet at no other point did he exercise these sorts of more superhuman powers.


3. Had he done so, he would have given greater credence to the message at the end of TM, where he said he was going to "tell people about you." Neo in Tony Robbins mode, teaching everyone that they, too could control the Matrix, or demonstrating that it was all a lie would have given people in the Matrix cause to freak out completely, hence irritating the hell out of Col. Sanders and co. Clearly, people in Zion bought into his myth, what with the offerings, but why not enormous millions-strong massings of people inside the Matrix itself?

4. It struck me that Bain/Bane's hand-cutting, unlike some in this thread have suggested was just your plain old run-of-the-mill "machine-wanting-to-experience-real-pain" bit. No more, no less.

5. The ending was ridiculous. The film should have ended as Neo collapsed. The two stretchers rolling into frame next to each other move would be hacky on a a soap opera.

6. Along the lines of 3 above, I'm starting to think that Neo and Smith are both part of the problem, in the sense that either of them could really wake up too many people. The number of Smiths that arrived in the Burly Brawl seemed to be heading towards exponential. Who's to say that Smith can't infect the whole world, messing up the "battery supply" pretty severly? (Interestingly, it just occurred to me that the first time we saw anyone infect anything was Neo into Smith. Now, though, Smith has that same exact ability - in the Burly Brawl, this was made overt.)

7. In the bright white hallway outside of Col. Sanders den, there were dozens of Smiths. Wasn't it supposed to be impossible to get into that room? How did Smith do it? And what about the hallway of stars? Blatant 2001 rip-offs/tributes?

8. If you recall the Oracle's first prophecy in TM (the broken lamp), every prophecy we saw occur in the movies occured exactly. Yet in Neo's dream, Trinity actually hits the car. In the "real" (Matrix) world, though, the scene plays identically except for Neo saving Trinity. It strikes me that that's significant.

9. If you waste a few hours on Usenet you'll find lots of people saying that the "intuitive" entity that the Architect spoke of is actually Persephone, not the Oracle. On reading the transcripts, the wording (he says "please" derisively) would allow for either.

10. There's just got to be something to her being named Trinity. Neo's name fits, Morpheus's does. What about hers? Is she simply the third person, hence her name, or is it more about "Holy Trinities" and such?

Hopefully people are still around to consider and discuss...

DanJun 06, 2003 at 10:05PM

Hopefully I'm not re-stating something here as well (big "Oops!" on the not-quite-relevatory Persephone thing above), but something
Brisvegas1 said struck me:

Neo still knows hacking, still knows kung fu - and he will have to use those skills with his real body in the real world, quite possibly with his friends that he will wake up.

Why are we assuming he still knows hacking, or at least kung-fu?

(lofty) AdamJun 06, 2003 at 11:03PM

I would still maintain that the purpose of The Matrix is not as a power source, but something deeper and more philosophical. Agency as framed by love and hate is an awfully good candidate.

Yes Ted, I think that's getting closer to the bottom of it.

I think "Matriculated" has a lot to do with love. After that trippy human-bonding experience the machine goes through, it actually seems like it falls in love with the young woman. When it puts itself and her back in the matrix, it tries to approach her in a very endearing/loving way. To me, this meant that a machine is capable of experiencing love in its own way. The fact that the girl is terrified of the machine when it approaches her says a lot about the distance still between the machines and the humans.

I venture that Trinity is the mother, a machine/program, and Neo falling in love with her is the first mating of machine and man...

pixelkittyJun 07, 2003 at 12:06AM

jkottke says:
Who was that "survivor" at the end of the movie?

Yes please, who was that? He was upsidedown on the screen for like a second and I didn't catch who it was. Anyone?

Just goes to show that I was correct in my review, when I said this particular sequal was made for the stereotypical stupid American movie viewing public.

Spoon BoyJun 07, 2003 at 1:40AM

A quick note on the topic of revolutions, namely the fifth and the sixth in the sequence. In hindsight, we know that as the first film starts, there have been five revolutions and five previous Neo's. They had yet to locate the sixth Neo, dropping us into the story somewhere between the fifth and the sixth lap.

Ready? Watch the opening "green code" scene of The Matrix again. During Trinity's conversation with Cypher, her phone number is being traced, one digit @ a time. Her phone number is 555-0690. Here's the order in which the digits appear on the screen:

xx5xxxx
5x5xxxx
555xxxx
555x6xx
555x6x0
555x690

...the camera zooms into and through the final zero, between the 5 and the 6.

5550690

That is so cool it should be illegal.

Tackaberry says,

The problem, I think is agency.

Indeed, one of the many concepts that the subject of A.I. digs into. It also reveals unanswerable questions about control, choice, destiny, purpose, the nature of reality and simulation, and the fine line between the two. So perhaps Keanu's right. Maybe it really is all about love.

(Party on) Ted says:

I just watched "Detective Story" again. What do you think?

Trinity's handle of "Red_Queen" is referring to the Queen Of Hearts in Alice's world again. Seems to be a theme Trinity enjoys using on her test subjects, including Neo (i.e. "Follow the white rabbit..."). With the detective, she also refers to jumping the "six brooks" (as Alice did), and to meet her @ a very palindromic 20:05 (which incidentally reads the same when viewed in a "looking glass", or mirror). And yes, I noticed the six brooks. :)

Is Trinity the mother? It's not clear. The architect says of the mother:

"...the answer (to the first Matrix's problem of failure) was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."

The fact that the intuitive program "stumbled upon" an answer implies that if Trinity was the mother, she'd know it. If she wasn't, then the idea of her "stumbing upon" a solution must've been something she wasn't consciously aware of. If she's the mom, she doesn't know it. Perhaps she can't know it. Know what I mean?

I've always wondered at the significance of Trinity's name.

Me too. Keep thinking.

Regarding the Revolutions trailer on the web:

Neo appears to be blindfolded.

Have you seen the trailer yourself and do you have the url? The blindfold thing reminds me of the sim workout the couple was doing in The Animatrix's "Final Flight Of The Osiris".

btw, Animatrix. Anime tricks.

Anyone willing to bet that this one will simply be open to interpretation after Revolutions?

I agree. Or more accurately, it'll be perfectly clear to those paying attention, while the rest of the world will either blissfully think it's something that it's not, or miss the point entirely (like pixelkitty and her "alterior" motives. lol. Check your spelling, kid.)

Brian Libfeld:

Did you have the day off today dude? That was classic! Totally lol @ "...brb..."

Regarding the teacher's chalkboard in The Animatrix's "A Kid's Story",

[SPOILER]

I've done my best here. Some of the text is unreadable and/or blocked by the teacher. Help wanted.

First chalkboard:

CLASS AGENDA
(unreadable) UP EXERCISES
HOMEWORK ILLUSION
NEW LESSON
WAKING IN CLASS (love that one!)

Second chalkboard:

It has been shown that this same simulation applies to the(convergent) linear recurring sequence with the initial ... assuring the characteristic physical ... the sequence tha ...

[/SPOILER]

More later. Poker night!

TackaberryJun 07, 2003 at 2:19AM

spoonboy and others talking about binary code:

For us that don t know binary, can you give a super quick, layman's explanation of the significance?


Thank you!!

notanyronJun 07, 2003 at 2:40AM

I find it very interesting that the W's seem to have a put quite a bit of subtle planning into the first film that is only revealed now. Here's a quote from matrixman:

"When the agents capture Neo and interrogate him, we get a glance of the Architect's room. The camera starts off in his room (notice the array of screens?) and then goes 'through' one of them, into the interrogation room."

What for me was just a cool shot done for effect, now becomes a spooky foreshadowing of the meeting between the Architect and Neo. With all the speculation rampant everywhere on the web, I have to wonder how many throwaway shots will be revealed as being much more significant. How much have the W's put in here & how much are we missing. On the same token, how many red herrings (white rabbits?) are being followed?

Spoon BoyJun 07, 2003 at 3:13AM

For us that don t know binary, can you give a super quick, layman's explanation of the significance?

The counting system we're all used to is a base-ten system, consisting of ten digits (0 through 9), arranged in columns in order to represent numeric values. The columns, from right to left, are the ones column, the tens column, the hundreds column, the thousands column, and so on, which ascend in multiples of ten. To notate the number "two hundred and forty seven" in our familiar counting system, we put the digit 2 in the hundreds column, the digit 4 in the tens column, and the digit 7 in the ones column.

(2x100) + (4x10) + (7x1) = 247

Computers use a different counting system than we're used to. It's a base-two system, consisting of only two digits (0 and 1). Like our base-ten system, digits are also arranged in columns to represent numeric values. However, in binary notation, the columns, from right to left, ascend in powers of two. From right to left are the ones column, the twos column, the fours column, the eights, the sixteens, the thirty-twos, and so on, ascending exponentially.

Compare the numeric values below. Using @ least three digit numbers for clarity, you've got your base-ten on the left, with binary on the right:

000 = 000
001 = 001
002 = 010
003 = 011
004 = 100
005 = 101
008 = 1000
009 = 1001
015 = 1111
016 = 10000
018 = 10010
032 = 100000
035 = 100011
063 = 111111
064 = 1000000

and so on.

To notate the number "two hundred and forty seven" in binary, we've got (1x128) + (1x64) + (1x32) + 1x16) + (0x8) + (1x4) + (1x2) + (1x1) = 247

So,

247 = 11110111

The reason we find this relevant in The Matrix is because of the undeniable connection to the idea of "the sixth" and many obvious references to the number 101, which is binary for 5, but essentialy the sixth in the binary sequence since computers start counting from zero.

TackaberryJun 07, 2003 at 8:16AM

I see wicked. Thanks Soon Boy.

I m in Japan and the movie just came out here. I saw it just last weekend, and missed the Revolutions trailer. I just downloaded and,

Is Morpheus and trinity fightin on the roof of the building in the first matrix? Is this that degeneration of the matrix as mentioned earlier, the anomilies piling up?

Who are the the oracle s guardian and trinity (mask/bandana dude) respectively fighting? Anyone rember what Merv s goons looked like? It does look like the oracles kitchen, as someone said (sorry for not giving you name recognition), when Serapth is playing with the guns, he definately beside trinity and morpheus, who s the long hiared crazy dude?? anyone figure out where Trinity and Morpheus are with that green laser light? anyone recognize any other characters in the scene? Is it a stage int he background or what?

Woah !the destination fo the subway train is LOOP !,

Maybe as the system ccrashes it starts looping, hence we are seeing some the scenes from especially the first movie over again, with different context.

If this nothing new than I will need to apologize to whomever posted this beofre me .

Brisvegas1Jun 07, 2003 at 8:29AM

I've captured some stills from the Smith / Baine hand cutting scene for anyone who wants to have a look at what is happening there.

It is not entirely clear what is going on... but I still think it is just symbolic of Smith / Baine carving out a new destiny for himself.

P.S. - do we have a definitive list of questions that need to be answered yet?

TackaberryJun 07, 2003 at 8:31AM

errr Spoon Boy. sorry.

And sorry for the double post. You guys are all sleeping in the west anyway.
Anyone want to give me odds that the Oracle s real name is Demeter?

TackaberryJun 07, 2003 at 10:57AM

Cool Brisvegas1. Thanks.

RBJun 07, 2003 at 11:19AM

Brian said:

"If Neo is the One, then everything else must be nothing "
See, now there is a point worth making. Were in a binary world and the signifigance of that name should be looked at in binary terms. Sweet.
But Neo isn't the one. I know I may get jumped on for saying this, because many people are spoon fed believers (much like I usually am) but the Oracle tells Neo he isn't the one. She never tells him he is, only that she told him what he needed to hear. I doubt the programs can lie, they can only give prepared answers. If you accept the things the architect say as facts then you need to accept the things the Oracle says as fact as well and that holds true that Neo is not the one, hence he is a zero, concurently he is nothing. Vis a vis. Had to add a vis a vis.

You know, personally, I always took this bit a little bit differently from everyone. Neo is told afterwards that the Oracle told him exactly what he needed to hear (or something to that effect, sorry, I don't have it dead on right now). Anyway, to me, to me, it was almost a challenge. Neo needed to prove to himself that he was the One, and there was only one way to do it - doing what he did.

If he was told he was the One, he may not have accepted it - we can see he didn't believe it before, even when Morpheus told him he believed in him. And, of course, the One needs the confidence that he is such, else he's useless.

Oh, yeah, I remember the other thing I wanted to mention now. Has anyone else noticed in the Revolutions trailer the thousands of Smiths? They fill the building behind the original, they line the streets... Obviously, he's been busy. It's in both. I don't have a link to the one after the movie, but I did find ">this (I can't remember where, it might have even been further up on this thread!), I think it may be from the game (? - I haven't beaten it yet). Comments?

Keep up the excellent discussion here. New revalations almost daily. Fantastic.

DamianJun 07, 2003 at 11:47AM

www.thematrixreloaded.comSend me some of your matix reloaded songs please.

Spoon BoyJun 07, 2003 at 1:25PM

Another note on 5550690 scene and the topic of the sixth revolution,

Turn it up and pay close attention to the sound effects. As the digits progressively pop into place, they're each accompanied by a common electronic sound effect: "blip", "blip", etc. However, when the 6 in particular pops into place, it has a distinctively different "blurp" sound effect associated with it, which Trinity hears.

As the 6 falls into its slot, "blurp"...

Trinity: "Did you hear that?"

Cypher: "Hear what?"

Trinity: "Are you sure this line is clean?"

Cypher: "Yeah, of course I'm sure."

Trinity: "I'd better go..."

TedJun 07, 2003 at 1:38PM

Spoon Boy, by ambiguity, I'm wondering if the W's might be clever enough to end Revolutions such that there won't be a definitive answer to any of the questions that have been raised about the film's philosophy. Maybe it'll be completely interpretive whether they ever truly wake up out of a The Matrix? That was a very nice explanation of binary and base 2.

Here's the link to the other trailer to which I was referring:

http://www.movie-list.com/m/matrixrevolutions.shtml

Tackaberry, I assume this is the trailer to which you're referring. As far as I know, it's not actually the one that's shown at the end of Reloaded - at least not where I saw it. It's very similar, but there are differences.

I also have been wondering why they are fighting on the ceiling. I've heard several references now to The Matrix breaking down. Does anyone have any links/URLs to such references? I don't know who Trinity is fighting, but it reminds me of the gimp from Pulp Fiction. And that crazy looking guy seems significant but really out of place, doesn't he?

A couple of other notes:

As more... uh... evidence of a matrix-within-a-matrix, there are recursion motifs throughout the film. In particular, the opening credits of Reloaded is quite recursive in nature as well as the often used shots of a scene in a monitor/screen which pan into the screen.

Also, in thinking about the nature of recursion some more, I almost forgot some very basic lessons. Namely, that recursion requires a base case. Otherwise you have infinite recursion resulting in a stack overflow.

Finally, some of us have been discussing agency as framed by love and hate (have I caught up to Tackaberry, yet?). But I realized that there are other themes that I suspect might be part of the reason for The Matrix's existence: the notion of symbiosis and coexistence. It's a fairly explicit theme throughout Reloaded.

brian libfeldJun 07, 2003 at 2:02PM

You know, personally, I always took this bit a little bit differently from everyone. Neo is told afterwards that the Oracle told him exactly what he needed to hear (or something to that effect, sorry, I don't have it dead on right now). Anyway, to me, to me, it was almost a challenge. Neo needed to prove to himself that he was the One, and there was only one way to do it - doing what he did.

If you are saying that you took it as a test and he is the one I think you took it the way it was intended. Thats how we are being led by that. That supposes the Oracle is capable of lying, which I don't dismiss, but for some arguments needs to be held in check.

Heres something that occured to me on the train yesterday. I've been trying to wrap my mind around the Persephone kiss scene. I found it gratuitous but as I said above I think she didn't betray the Mergovian. Heres the thing, if she is PErsephone then she is Ceres daughter. She is bound to Hades as his consort/wife because she consumed food while in hades. Hence the offering of food to Neo as soon as he sat down. Yes it was courtesy but it was also similar to the cake he offered the blonde. In mythology Persephone has to stay in Hades one month for each seed of a pomegranite she ate, which I believe was 7 (does anyone know the exact number?)

Neo is the only one of our heroes who consumes anything in the Mergovian's. Notably he is also the only one who is trapped in the Mergovian's castle in the mountains. Everyone else gets out where they came in (more or less) and Neo after consuming the Kiss/Lipstick finds himself trapped. Hes the hero of the story, so he has another means of escaping, but still. This becomes relevant because in the video game the Oracle tells us that Neo's mind is caught between the matrix and the real world. Is when he leaves at the end of the movie, just before he halts the squiddies, is that the first time he leaves the matrix after the Meregovian's? Just curious. If it is, then perhaps the kiss is where his mind becomes trapped inside the Matrix and not at the architechts?

RayneJun 07, 2003 at 2:18PM

Baudrillard’s Simulacra and Simulation may offer some alternative viewpoints; for instance, the breakdown between reality and image is collapsed when Smith “infects” Bane. Smith is no longer part of the image of the unreal Matrix, yet he is not entirely human in Bane. Smith transcends the veil between real/unreal through his viral-like mutation into a hosted entity; he checks for this shift from unreal to real by cutting into his host’s hand. In the unreality, the damage would have been healed or could be discarded. In reality, Smith must live with the pain that is Bane – yet the pain is the desired location of reality.

Smith, in some respects, has entered a hyperreality, living between both the unreality/surreality of the Matrix and the reality of Zion. Is this perhaps the third realm, where both the Matrix and Zion are nexted? A place where simulation collapses and co-exists with that upon which it was modeled?

Neo also lives in this hyperreality; he’s demonstrated the collapse between the real and the unreal/surreal by not only moving between both places, but by using the powers which existed in the unreality within the space of reality (his overpowering the squiddies).

Perhaps the ultimate outcome of Revolutions will be the unveiling, revelation that there is some force which exists and lives independent of the place in which it is framed. This power needs no referential framework, reality/unreality/surreality/hypperreality to quantify its existence. Is this force the real source of our humanity, the real font of spirit? Hmm.

RayneJun 07, 2003 at 2:23PM

Sorry...nexted = nested ^

Spoon BoyJun 07, 2003 at 2:38PM

Ted says:

I'm wondering if the W's might be clever enough to end Revolutions such that there won't be a definitive answer to any of the questions that have been raised

Likely. This is common in the highest levels of conceptual art, literature, and music. An element of ambiguity allows the audience to explore the piece, find what they want in it, and embrace it as their own. This is not to say that the artist doesn't have his own personal interpretation of his work. It's just that he doesn't spell it out for us.

Brian Libfeld says:

Neo is the only one of our heroes who consumes anything in the Mergovian's.

True. Interesting. I like where you're going with this, as I was trying to wrap my noodle around the relevance of the kiss as well. I initially thought it has something to do with cracking a password of sorts in order to access the Keymaker (i.e. the kiss had to be "convincing", and it took two tries to get it right.) The scene that focuses on Persephone applying the lipstick supports what your saying regarding consumption, as does the restaurant setting itself. btw, the Merovingian's cake: Devil's Food.

Off to the beach with the dog while I think about it...

TackaberryJun 07, 2003 at 11:34PM

Persephone is Demeter's daughter not Ceres' daughter.

There has been a lot of conjecture is all the food (and lipstick) offered to Neo are programs- cookies, candy, etc etc.

It's not an unreasonable nor an unvalid suggestion. More so, you have precedence in the cake and perhaps the pills. But I just don't see what it adds. That's a lot of manipulation Neo has digested, and as of yet we haven't seen the purpose and intent of each program, nor the results of each program.

I saw the kiss differently. They focused on Persephone putting it on because plain ole lipstick is program sort of speak, it does effect men. When she is putting the lipstick on, she still thinks like Merv, that humans, even love, is just something we don t fully understand. She still thinks there is nothing magical about it, doesn t see what role it could play in decision making. I think her and Merv were the first one and trinity, both as programs, both as the computers attempt to take that symbiotic relationship with humans out of the equation by providing themselves with true agency. They failed, found desire where love should have been.
After the kiss Persephone is a believer. In the debate among the programs, ie, between the oracle and Merv about the role of humans (and nature of agency) Persephone crosses back, out of Hades (this is why I asked earlier if anyone wants to give me odds that the Oracle is Demeter btw). There is something about love and humans. Persephone sees it now, and crosses between both worlds just like her mythological counterpart.

This just makes the kiss more purposful and intentional than transmitting a program, imo. The lipstick I just took to represent her old way of thinking, of thinking that inputs like lipstick can evoke love. Trinity doesnt wear lipstick ever in the movie. Hers and Neos love is not desire, it s not manipulated.

CarolynJun 07, 2003 at 11:49PM

I hate not having anything to add.

Oh well, 151 days.

Brian LibfeldJun 08, 2003 at 2:50AM

Persephone is Demeter's daughter not Ceres' daughter.

you say tomato, i say... Demeter is the Ancient Roman name for the Ancient Greek CEres, both goddess' of the harvest, both sisters and lovers of Zeus (the architect with is little wand of lightning) and both mothers to Persephone.

There has been a lot of conjecture is all the food (and lipstick) offered to Neo are programs- cookies, candy, etc etc.

I don't mean to suggest all food is a distinct control program, just that given the blatant associations that link the Mergovian with Hades and the historic/mythological signifigance of the effect of eating while in Hades has on souls (Hades is notoriously greedy about letting souls leave) that the Mergovian offering food and being so smug when Neo turns it down, I think he says "No, of course not." and smiles, cobined with the Oracle's telling Niobe in the video game that Neo's mind is trapped between the Matrix and the real world makes for a valid suggestion that the kiss Neo was MADE to take may have had the same effect. Notably, in mythology Persephone isn't trapped in Hades, she is split between Hades and earth having to spend 6 months of the year there for the six seeds of the pomegranate she ate while there. 6 months. in human counting not computer.

...as of yet we haven't seen the purpose and intent of each program, nor the results of each program.

Well, if Neo is trapped between the two maybe we have seen the results, just like him being trapped in the mountains, as i said before, while everyone else gets back out in Matrix California from the Mergovian's skyscraper. I was bothered not to see an immediente response because I associated the lipstick with the cake immedietly during that scene, and its only in hindsight that I realize we probably did and it won't be clear until later.

this is why I asked earlier if anyone wants to give me odds that the Oracle is Demeter btw).

And I was totally gonna give you props for that call. Even if it isn't the case, its a solid place to start from.

This just makes the kiss more purposful and intentional than transmitting a program, imo.

Well, i think trapping Neo's mind inside the Matrix is pretty purposeful. Having that kind of control fits in with the way the Mergovian has been described to us.

As for assuming that Neo's love of Trinity and vice versa isn't programed is a huge leap. Yes, its about love they tell us, and they of course after all these years don't know anything about feeding disinformation out through their actors... sorry... The architect makes it quite clear that in preparing Neo for his role they use tactics of both nature and nurture. He is placed with his family, his friends, his co-workers, his lovers, all for the end result they will generate in him - the Oneness. The Oracle tells Trinity that when the one comes along she will love him.

There is a point somewhere in this thread about finger waggling, where in the human mind the action of flexing your finger is initiated before the decision is consciouslly made to flex. If I'm with you and I tell you not to lick your lips, guess what you're going to do? Sure, Trinity wanted to doubt that Neo was the one, but as soon as she had an inkling of either a) Neo actually being the One or b) Wanting to rock Neo's body right she was going to fall in love with him. Love is like that. 90 percent timing, 9 percent attraction, and 1 percent commonality. Its all there. Hes the one, hes a cutey-pie, (especially compared with her other options - Joe Pantaliano - love the guy, but hunky love money he isn't), he can act in over 20 movies with only one facial expression, etc. and so she loves him.

Brian LibfeldJun 08, 2003 at 2:55AM

hunky love money = hunky-love-monkey

Its wrong of me to place my cynical take on love onto the brothers W, but given that one of them just left their wife for a life of being bottom and slave to a dominatrix, i wouldn't be too quick to give them an old school take on love either.

tllgrrlJun 08, 2003 at 12:15PM

y'all...it's PART TWO of a TRILOGY.
if you don't understand it, maybe you aren't supposed to because the story isn't over yet.
i've seen it twice and enjoyed it more the 2nd time.
in a movie landscape filled with jim carrey and sandra bullock, i'm reveling in the Brothers W's storytelling and vision.
braincandy and eyecandy.
yum!

sneetchJun 08, 2003 at 5:58PM

I reckon Neo is on the path of enlightenment, as in Buddhism, and he has reached the 6th stage. I don't know much about Buddhism, but it seems that once you reach Nirvana you are supposed to have almost supernatural powers such as a feel for all things in the world that exist, maybe what happened when he managed to stop the Sentinals.

parapesaJun 08, 2003 at 6:56PM

I'll admit I haven't been checking in recently, so please forgive me if anyone else has said this. in the scene leading up to the marovingian's first meeting with out heros, there is a table with people sitting. now i haven't seen the movie recently, but i was told by a friend that there is a shot of an actor called steve mcqueen, who incedently is dead,and has been for quite some time. whether or not this is the man being lead out, i have no idea, and whether or not this is supposed to shed more meaning on the movie, i cannot say, but that would explain why his name isn't in the credits: he's dead

Brisvegas1Jun 08, 2003 at 10:48PM

Oh my goddness- Steve McQueen does seem to be in the restaurant scene.

He isn't the man who is being led away... Instead he appears sitting to the left of the woman in the pink dres who has the "When Harry met Sally" cake.

Kind of ironic given that one of Steeve McQueen's most famous roles is in the movie "The Great Escape" where he plays The Cooler King - someone who spends much of the movie either in solitary confinement or trying to escape... This is very much like the solipsic view of the matrix, which has every trapped in their own individual pod - trying to break into the "real world".

Does anyone know if the guy who is being led away appears in either the "animatrix" or the "enter the matrix" game?

the oneJun 09, 2003 at 2:36AM

i think what happened is that Smith was not supposed to kill Neo when he did in the first movie. When he was killed Trin declares her love and makes him come back to life giving him what he needed to become the real One. This is what then creates a different outcome as the past 5 chosen ones, because Neo then returns to life as the first one did: "Born inside the matrix" and with a more powerful love feeling as the others did. Something new in this 6th version of the one too is that he destroys Smith giving him new powers, as the agent isn't part of the system that once controlled him. This is why things don't go the same as they did before, why should the agents try to kill neo if he is necessary to the system itself? This is why the architect is so curious of the one's decision this time and we see the options and possibilities he can take and considers on the screens in his room.

Spoon BoyJun 09, 2003 at 3:06AM

Re: Steve McQueen,

There's a resemblance. But he's no more McQueen than anybody else on the planet who looks like McQueen. It's an illusion... between those with control, and those without.

If that's Steve McQueen, then the dude being escorted out of the restaurant is Tommy Chong.

A note on the Merovingian and the consumption theory,

The first thing Merv does before our three heroes sit down is offer them something to eat or drink, particularly Neo, as it is Neo that he's eyeballing during the offer.

Mr SpockJun 09, 2003 at 9:00AM

I haven't read through all these so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but has it occurred to anyone that Xion may not be in the real world and in fact be another part of the Matrix.

Reasons for this thought largely revolve around the architect's speech, were he identifies choice, or the absence of choice, as the reason for the failure of the first Matrix. Xion could represent an illusion of choice?

It explains how Smith could be in bane and Neo could stop the sentinels at the end, if he becomes aware of the second system, which the rest believe to be the real world. It explains why the machines would allow Xion to reach a population of 250,000, because their is no real threat. Reset the second system every so often to maintain the illusion of choice.

Thoughts welcome!

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 9:36AM

Hearty discussion and unpopular viewpoints are welcome, but please keep comments on-topic and *civil*. Flaming, trolling, and ass-kissing comments are discouraged and may be deleted. Thanks!

Hey Spock, welcome to the discussion. I hope you have a chance to look back over those 496 comments that most of us have actually read the brunt of.

Yeah. Thats it.

That guy being led away does look kinda like Tommy Chong, doesn't he?

RBJun 09, 2003 at 9:39AM

Since there was a lot of recent discussion on Persephone lately, I would like to pose another question: what do you think of her prediction after the kiss that though Trinity was lucky, "it won't last"? A death by one of them? One of them falling out of love? Sacrifice (though this would be the ultimate act of love)? Or was she semi-predicting Trinity's death that Neo had been dreaming about, which never ended up happening, therefore leading Neo to show up her prediction?

Just thought I might as well ask and see what the opinions were on that, if it even means everything (though, everything here seems to mean something :).

Mr SpockJun 09, 2003 at 10:31AM

I've read most of them.

I haven't seen any of this Animatrix stuff, don't think its here in the UK yet!

Persephone's kiss. Tricky one this, it may prove largely irrelevant. Consider the purpose for including the scene, as the frenchman states, without an understanding of why the scene is there, you will not work out its purpose.

What does it achieve? It achieves Humour in the form of trinity's reaction to the kiss and an emphasis on the emotional reactivity of humans. In sharp contrast with the rational logic from the frenchmans causality speech.

Persephone's stated reason for the kiss was to 'feel', to 'feel'?? suggesting the understanding of emotion eludes the machines.

Does this lack of understanding account for their inability to build a matrix which can work without the provision of choice.

parapesaJun 09, 2003 at 11:17AM

the steve mcqueen dude, can't open the link to see him!
and supposedly the other guy sitting on the table, or someone else in that particular scene is also another dead actor, but i can't remeber who! reminds me of "death becomes her" when every dead famous person is at that party.
anyways, just thought i'd add more to the confusion :)

LeeJun 09, 2003 at 12:05PM

Hello all.

I hoping someone can help me here. I have read approx 250 comments so far (phey). Firstly something to think about.

Could the Architect be human? After all a machine is programmed,
The program follows the rules that were written by a prgrammer, so who programmed the machine? Another Machine? Who programmed that?

Secondly i remembered an paper written by Hilary Putnam in 1975 called Brains in a Vat. I has been a good few years since i read it and im trying to track it down. Why? The brain in the VAT could (is i think) be the idea behind the matrix.

If you can be bothered (i this may lose some people here) Please have a quick peek at the following link. and this I have to say that this is mindblowing stuff, and this is the reason i originally was fascinated in the first film.

Does anyone see any connections here?

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 1:09PM

So I watched Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey last night, and I noticed how when the evil machine bill and Ted send the phone booth away they put on sunglasses and the left lens has red light flashing on it and the right lens has blue light flashing on it. This got me thinking...

So, lets look at this logically:
1 - The Phone Booth is the instrument used to move through time much as the phones serve as the conduit through worlds in the Matrix 2.

2 - The movie has a underlying man vs machine bent. We see instances of the machines being used for good... will we see that in Revolutions?

3 - We have a pair of dudes and a pair of ladies that make up the main heroes - Neo/Trinity and Morpheus/Niobe vs Bill/Princess 1 and Ted/Princess 2.

4 - Bill (Neo) possesses his father the way Neo is able to Possess Smith (Could Smith be Neo's father?)

5 - We move between three worlds in B&T, earth (the matrix), hell (zion) and heaven (something we haven't seen yet). Further support for the onion skin theory.

Anyone else have connections? I think all the answers are there...

Try not to take me seriously ever. I get loopy.

DanJun 09, 2003 at 1:10PM

Glad to see that this thread is continuing (ad infinitum, perhaps).

Brisvegas1 mentioned here that s/he wanted to put together a comprehensive list of questions, which I think is a good idea.

Not to toot my own horn, but none of my questions and comments were addressed when I posted them Friday. I'd really like to hear what people have to say, as I've not seen most of them discussed anywhere. If nothing else, I'd love to see some of them added to Brisvegas1's "definitive list."

Here's a re-listing for those frightened of following hyperlinks (with apologies for the extra couple of k wasted):

1. In Col. Sanders rec room with all the TVs, Neo is given a choice between two doors, yes. And the Architect gives a lengthy speech about hope and the ontogeny of Neo's choice. But if you read the transcript (links above), you'll see that the Architect never actually spells out *where* he expects Neo to go. Both courses of reaction are dependent on hope, no?

2. It bothered me that Neo's character arc in 1 went from "regular guy" to guy who can stop bullets and fly, whereas TMR, we learn that he can ... gasp! stop bullets and fly! I don't know what I wanted him to be able to do, but he should have been able to do more: some sort of Superman heat vision or additional superpower beyond stopping more bullets and flying faster
(In one Empire Strikes Back callback, during the castle fight, he motioned to a sword on the wall which then flew to him. Yet at no other point did he exercise these sorts of more superhuman powers.


3. Had he done so, he would have given greater credence to the message at the end of TM, where he said he was going to "tell people about you." Neo in Tony Robbins mode, teaching everyone that they, too could control the Matrix, or demonstrating that it was all a lie would have given people in the Matrix cause to freak out completely, hence irritating the hell out of Col. Sanders and co. Clearly, people in Zion bought into his myth, what with the offerings, but why not enormous millions-strong massings of people inside the Matrix itself?

4. It struck me that Bain/Bane's hand-cutting, unlike some in this thread have suggested was just your plain old run-of-the-mill "machine-wanting-to-experience-real-pain" bit. No more, no less.

5. The ending was ridiculous. The film should have ended as Neo collapsed. The two stretchers rolling into frame next to each other move would be hacky on a a soap opera.

6. Along the lines of 3 above, I'm starting to think that Neo and Smith are both part of the problem, in the sense that either of them could really wake up too many people. The number of Smiths that arrived in the Burly Brawl seemed to be heading towards exponential. Who's to say that Smith can't infect the whole world, messing up the "battery supply" pretty severly? (Interestingly, it just occurred to me that the first time we saw anyone infect anything was Neo into Smith. Now, though, Smith has that same exact ability - in the Burly Brawl, this was made overt.)

7. In the bright white hallway outside of Col. Sanders den, there were dozens of Smiths. Wasn't it supposed to be impossible to get into that room? How did Smith do it? And what about the hallway of stars? Blatant 2001 rip-offs/tributes?

8. If you recall the Oracle's first prophecy in TM (the broken lamp), every prophecy we saw occur in the movies occured exactly. Yet in Neo's dream, Trinity actually hits the car. In the "real" (Matrix) world, though, the scene plays identically except for Neo saving Trinity. It strikes me that that's significant.

9. If you waste a few hours on Usenet you'll find lots of people saying that the "intuitive" entity that the Architect spoke of is actually Persephone, not the Oracle. On reading the transcripts, the wording (he says "please" derisively) would allow for either.
(OK, THIS WAS DISCUSSED)

10. There's just got to be something to her being named Trinity. Neo's name fits, Morpheus's does. What about hers? Is she simply the third person, hence her name, or is it more about "Holy Trinities" and such

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 1:24PM

answer to question 8: - well - i have framed by framed it and you don't actually see trinity hit the car - just a generic body travelling at speed (the whole thing hapens in about 12 frames or half a second.)

What youy have to remember is that the agents cant fly, and when they are done with a body (either through death or dis-interest, they just leave and the body reverts to it's prior state. Of course in this case that would leave the individual in question sh!t our of luck....

Spoon BoyJun 09, 2003 at 2:42PM

you don't actually see trinity hit the car - just a generic body

True. Also remember the conversation that went someting like:

Neo: "Something bad happens in my dream. I see Trinity. She's falling."

Oracle: "Do you see her die?"

Neo: "No."

Dan says:

the Architect gives a lengthy speech about hope

A lengthy speech, yes. But he never really mentions hope until Neo begins heading toward Door 2. His mentioning of hope is clearly a reaction to Neo's (predictable) "choice":

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

you'll see that the Architect never actually spells out *where* he expects Neo to go

Disagree. Since he's already dubbed Neo "irrevocably human", he would have to expect Neo to partake in the "quintessential human delusion".

I don't know what I wanted him to be able to do, but he should have been able to do more: some sort of Superman heat vision or additional superpower beyond stopping more bullets and flying faster

Have a little faith. He's only on his sixth try, and he's getting better each time.

The ending was ridiculous.

To be concluded...

I'm starting to think that Neo and Smith are both part of the problem, in the sense that either of them could really wake up too many people.

I've pondered the idea of Smith actually being The One, or perhaps The Other One. The ONEONE painted on the wall suggests something we're not clued in on quite yet. I've tossed the idea aside for now. It's too early.

In the bright white hallway outside of Col. Sanders den, there were dozens of Smiths. Wasn't it supposed to be impossible to get into that room

Don't assume there was only one Smith to begin with. If he's a software component, or Agent, there could've conceivably been many Smiths just like him before he learned how to clone himself.

From Webster's:

Smith: One who makes or works at something specified.

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 2:49PM

Re: #10, Signifigance of Trinity as a name...

from http://awesomehouse.com/matrix/parallels.html

(Note: This isn't my take, but it is a take. This one leans a bit much towards the Christian interpretation... then again, with a name like Trinity its hard to stray far from Christian mythos.)

Death & Resurrection: Later, Neo IS killed by the authorities (the Agents), and, instead of 3 days, in less than 3 minutes he is resurrected! We know that showing the passing of 3 actual days in this situation would've been impossible, so how did they symbolically represent 3 days? The prevalent screen placement of "303" should alert the sensitivities of any New Testament-savvy audience member who is aware of the numerical significance of the number three in the Gospels. This symbolic visual cue is all the film needs to alert the audience members to the significance of this momentary death. 

Now,...what force brought Neo back from the dead? LOVE! The instrument of that love was Trinity (and not necessarily the person as much as what the NAME signifies in Christianity!).

With that in mind, let's look at that resurrection scene.....(the) Trinity leans over Neo and kisses him (the proverbial "kiss of life" or "breath of life"!) and Neo awakens! And the first words Neo hears are in the form of a command from (the) Trinity, "Now,....get up!" (Can't you imagine God breathing life back into Jesus, and the first words Jesus hears are God's, "Now,....get up!")

Spoon BoyJun 09, 2003 at 2:54PM

Brian Libfeld says:
So I watched Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey last night. Anyone else have connections?

"Iron Maiden??? EXCELLENT!!!"

GhostJun 09, 2003 at 2:55PM

Hey, What makes you think Persephone is a program? Was that ever stated? MAbey I’m just being dumb, she does state that she has been around for a long time. Doesn’t she?

But what does confuse me is that everyone speaks about these machines and programs as not having "Agnecy", And that they don't have feelings. Few have touched on the fact that they may. These machines are capable of deceiving the system and some have chose to stay in the matrix instead of returning when obsolete.

I know for a fact that these machines feel fear. This is stated in the animatrix by the machine that was afraid to die….

Also this is A.I. as we have not seen before. After watching the Animatrix you begin to see this. These are not Purely rational, logical, analytical, "data" from the starship enterprise machines. SO remember that they are highly developed AI that is capable of almost all the same thoughts, personality, and possibly emotions that humans are.




AGENT SMITH: "I don't know. If I knew"... Agent Smith hides his knotting fist. He is becoming angry. It is something that isn't supposed to happen to agents.....

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 2:58PM

Spoony said: I've pondered the idea of Smith actually being The One, or perhaps The Other One. The ONEONE painted on the wall suggests something we're not clued in on quite yet. I've tossed the idea aside for now. It's too early.

Well, since we don't see one zero one there we see oneone (I haven't seen this - I didn't notice it and haven't had a chance to go back since it was mentioned) we can make the binary interpretation would be 3, or the trinity, which might make Neo, Smith and one other aspects of the Trinity outside of its meaning in the Character Trinity's name.

Don't assume there was only one Smith to begin with. If he's a software component, or Agent, there could've conceivably been many Smiths just like him before he learned how to clone himself.

Well I agree we can't really assume anything, I think the multiple Smith's can reasonable be called a new thing. If there had been multiple Smith's like this (previous to Neo's effecting him) I doubt there would have been multiple agent programs, just one that could mass replicate. It is an assumption, but I think we can make it that Smith was singular prior to the end of M1.

Spoon BoyJun 09, 2003 at 3:07PM

It is an assumption, but I think we can make it that Smith was singular prior to the end of M1

Indeed, and so it was. Morpheus on A.I.:

"A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines."

Rest, people. The answers are coming.

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 3:15PM

Rest, people. The answers are coming.

Bu... bu... what will I do with my time?

As for Persephone... well, we have no way of knowing that she isn't human. They tell us the Mergovian is a program, but I don't suppose they ever tell us that Persephone is.

Since the Mergovian can craft programs of his own there is the possibility that he could extend and maintain the avatar image of a human he took a shying to. We also don't know what his original function as a program was (do we?) so for all we know that sort of scripting power may have been a part of his original code.

Who knows... maybe a machine produced body can survive beyond the 120 year limit imposed on us by our genetics. There are biological ways around that actively in development, theres no reason to assume a human, properly maintained, couldn't libe through several hundred years. (a la Bones in the first season of ST:TNG)

GhostJun 09, 2003 at 3:21PM

Just a thought.
ONEONE = two ones in one word (or space).

Meaning that there can only be one, one in the matrix.

So if the one one won then he is the only one that won. Say that ten times.

GhostJun 09, 2003 at 3:33PM

Brian, You never responded to this post.



Encore.....

Brian Libfeld, the only thing that you didn't comment on is whether or not something was uploaded into Neo when he died at room 303. Since I agreed with much of what you said I’d like to read it. Some say it was a program that just before the point of death was loaded into him "like Smith was loaded into C/Bane". I personally think that it was a soul or power of some sorts. Since knowledge is power perhaps it was the knowledge of knowing 100% that the Matrix isn't real, and the bullets can't kill.

Also no comment on how the Oracle would know that Trinity would fall in love.




“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.”

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 3:55PM

"Who knows... maybe a machine produced body can survive beyond the 120 year limit imposed on us by our genetics. There are biological ways around that actively in development, theres no reason to assume a human, properly maintained, couldn't live through several hundred years"

And there is no reason to assume that a human can't become a program.

If all those previous Neo's went back to the source, picked a bunch of people to wake up from the matrix and then re-established zion: WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PHYSICAL BODIES OF THE PREVIOIUS NEOS?

I mean - they were allready out of the matrix - in the "real world". (unless zion is not the real world)

Perhaps it is possible that an enlightened human - one enlightened to the level of neo - may be able to maintain oneself as a digital entity, despite the death of ones physical flesh in the real world.

A possible mechanism of action for this would be the "return to the source"

When your code is incorporated into the matrix code you run on the matrix system - rather than requiring a human brain to run your "code".

So by that logic - the Merovingian may of been the first Neo or one of the first

Same for the guardian of the oracle.

I don't mind the idea that the Merovingian is an early Neo and the Persephone is an early Trinity. That would mike a nice fit for the oracle being the mother of the matrix and explain the power of the Merovingian.

For that matter the Architect might be more than he seems too, ie more than just a machine intelligence.

It would be super cool if it turned out that the matrix was in fact a human invention. Maybe a kind of computer virus developed by the humans when they realised that they were going to lose the war with the machines. The virus allows a giant distributed computing project to be run in the background of all the machines computing processes, and contains a construct that allows humans to be simulated - maybe from the complete human genome decoding project.

The cool upsot of this is that the simulation could be an experiment in evolution... wait until the machines network of computing power is sophisticated enough to simulate human conciousness and then use a process of guided evolution to bring it to the point where it can "merge with the source" and take control of it's machines host processes.

This could be the way that humans re-emerge in the real world, long after their biological extinction, in machine bodies.

Ha - that would be a real twist/reversal on the humans as batteries idea. And it would resonate with the trans humanists "singularity" fears of a superintelligence, all of which are very "matrixy" kind of ideas.

Maybe that would be a more "noodlebaking" end for the series than just beginning on another loop in the cycle. It sure as hell would make up for any dissapointment that anyone might suffer if the matrix within a matrix theory turns out to be true.

ps. does anyone have any theories as to why the guardian of the oracle glowed yellow gold in the matrix code view. To date there has been nothing but green on black code - for everything and every character, including neo.

anxietyJun 09, 2003 at 4:06PM

Mr Spock -

Animatrix available in UK on DVD since 2nd June. HMV, £12.99. Go, buy!

/commercial

DanJun 09, 2003 at 4:14PM

Spon Boy: "Rest, people. The answers are coming. "

I mean this in all the most constructive way, but can you try and tone down the sanctimony (or should I call it condescennsion) a bit? With all due respect, I'm intellectually fascinated by all of this, and I've read through your theory as many others, but with every post you further solidify this image of you as comic-book-guy from the Simpsons, preaching to the poor huddled masses yearning to understand what you do.

This isn't a flame - just keep it to yourself a bit, please. Facts, theories, that's all cool. You've had lots of great points. But enough with the patronizing. It's hard enough to read through 500+ posts without it.

DanJun 09, 2003 at 4:17PM

Dan says:
Spon Boy: "Rest, people. The answers are coming. "

... and how about I disprove my own argument by patronizing myself a bit? "SpoOn Boy," not "Spon Boy." Because the sentence "there is no spon" really has a lot less meaning.

rizzonJun 09, 2003 at 4:22PM

For you hackers out there. The scene where Trinity goes into the Matrix to save Neo while his with the Architect. Trinity hacks into the program using an old program hackers use to hack...

DanJun 09, 2003 at 4:52PM

Spoon Boy says:
you don't actually see trinity hit the car - just a generic body

Good point. I haven't been back since my first viewing and didn't realize this.

Oracle: "Do you see her die?"

Neo: "No."

Better proof, still. Thanks!

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

you'll see that the Architect never actually spells out *where* he expects Neo to go

SB: Disagree. Since he's already dubbed Neo "irrevocably human", he would have to expect Neo to partake in the "quintessential human delusion".

... and what, exactly, is this? To me, hope lies in either direction and it's not clearly spelled out. That said, I haven't checked a transcript, but I suspect you're right ... reading it here I do think that the "Trinity" door fits hope much better.


D: I don't know what I wanted him to be able to do, but he should have been able to do more: some sort of Superman heat vision or additional superpower beyond stopping more bullets and flying faster

SB: Have a little faith. He's only on his sixth try, and he's getting better each time.

I have a hard time granting this. He is in complete control of his environment. So far as the movie suggests, he can do anything. His reach for the "light saber" was effortless, practiced.... But the W's did very little here to provide him with any growth. It's reasonable to assume that more than six months had passed since he had been freed, and yet he'd learned to do nothing more? Certainly possible and plausible, but unsatisfying to this viewer, at least.

D: The ending was ridiculous.

SB: To be concluded...

I'm speaking very specifically here. The ending, the soap opera finale was horribly, horribly done. I couldn't care less whether it's the second of three movies. There's some obligation on the part of the directors to imbue some dramatic structure. The movie should have ended just as Neo collapsed. That's it. The rest of that information was utterly useless, didn't further the story at all, and diminished the dramatic impact of the unarguably climactic seen wherein Neo's powers manifest outside of the (original, unadulterated) matrix.

SB: I've pondered the idea of Smith actually being The One, or perhaps The Other One. The ONEONE painted on the wall suggests something we're not clued in on quite yet. I've tossed the idea aside for now. It's too early.

Possible ... but I'd argue that your own theory (one-oh-one) would present a far better rationale for oneone being painted. While I don't personally buy your argument en toto, I think it's far more logical that that painting is a continuation of a theme rather than a heavy-handed quadruple-entendre. It'd just be too much. IMHO.

In the bright white hallway outside of Col. Sanders den, there were dozens of Smiths. Wasn't it supposed to be impossible to get into that room

Don't assume there was only one Smith to begin with. If he's a software component, or Agent, there could've conceivably been many Smiths just like him before he learned how to clone himself.

Not my point. That room was inaccessible, and no one was in it when Neo left it. How did Agent Smith (or dozens of him) make it in there?

SB: From Webster's:

Smith: One who makes or works at something specified.

From Dan: ... So?

My pet theories/issues still revolve around the viral aspects of Neo (figuratilvely viral: spreading disbelief to the masses) and Smith (literally viral, potentially assuming control of the entire world). Given the trailer for Revolutions, it strikes me that perhaps there is a single, master copy of Smith. Otherwise there is little logic for their one on one battle with thousands of Smiths standing by at attention.

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 5:15PM

OK - some more thought on guided evolution and how the matrix is a human invention to take over the machines

Programmers are now playing with genetic algorithms that grow and develop as solutions to a particular set of problems... the bad/inefficient solutions get weeded out and the good ones go on to be the basis of future solutions. Now although the programmer created the program, designed it so to speak, in terms of the rules and constraint placed up the initial specifications of the system... but the resulting code is not written, or in many cases, even understood by the programmer. Neo is not so much a "program" as the result of an experiment in controlled evolution, a special human whose brain and consciousness has been shaped by a series of events etc etc.

OK - so when seen in the light of genetic algorithms and guided evolution - Zion is the place where all the successful expressions of humans that can "reject the matrix" go to breed.

This rich stew of rebellious programs is used to scour over the humans in the matrix to find the "potential" free minds and bring them back to zion to add their diversity to the mix - (Neo and Trinity having sex)- Now we are starting to see the point of the rave/sex scene.

So, whether zion is real or not, whether the humans are programs or not - what is happening in zion is accelearated evolution. Pick the very best, most rebellious minds and allow them to breed only with themselves.

Once Zion gets to a critical mass - "the one" emerges and takes the sum of accumulated evolution back to the source to reseed the matrix - i.e. when the matrix is reset all of the people in it will benefit from the algorithms delveloped in zion.

Perhaos that even explains why the last matrix only lasted 72 hours...

Anyway - there must be a point to it all, the constuction of the matrix, that is.

I gues the intent would depend on who developed it , humans or machines.

If the machines developed it - then it is likely that it is some sort of experiment 9about free will etc) , or an attempt to get humans and machines to the point where they can co-exist - ala the animatrix.

If a human developed the matrix, as detailed here, then the ultimate goal will obviously be somewhat different.

Irrespective of who designed it - I can't help but think that there will be a positive / uplifting end to this saga... with themes of transendence and renewal featuring so prominantly, I can't believe it would all end in a loop or with 'no exit', that truly would be hell.

Spoon BoyJun 09, 2003 at 5:31PM

Dan says:

you try and tone down the sanctimony (or should I call it condescennsion) a bit?

It wasn't intended to be condescending. It was referencing a classic line from The Matrix while they were reviving Neo's body.

Morpheus: "Rest, Neo. The answers are coming."


Regarding hope and the two doors,

... and what, exactly, is this? To me, hope lies in either direction and it's not clearly spelled out. That said, I haven't checked a transcript,

You can review the transcript here.

SB: From Webster's:

Smith: One who makes or works at something specified.

From Dan: ... So?

Just pointing out the perfect choice of name for the Smith character.

He is in complete control of his environment. So far as the movie suggests, he can do anything.

I wouldn't call it complete control (and btw, which enviroment?). As these first two films show, his powers are evolutionary, constantly upgrading, getting progressively better with time. He's gone from falling off the building to flying above the clouds. Like any piece of software, he's improving with each version. Well, like most software. :)

DanJun 09, 2003 at 6:04PM

SB: It wasn't intended to be condescending. It was referencing a classic line from The Matrix while they were reviving Neo's body.

Morpheus: "Rest, Neo. The answers are coming."

I accept that that may not have been your intention in this particular case - or perhaps in any other - but that's the very clear impression you've given to me, which has soured a good but of an otherwise highly entertaining thread. Enough about that. I'd appreciate it if you could keep it in mind.

Regarding hope and the two doors,

... and what, exactly, is this? To me, hope lies in either direction and it's not clearly spelled out. That said, I haven't checked a transcript,

You can review the transcript here.

I've read the transcript and had prior to my post - I didn't read it today. I had that thought while in the theater, as the architect talked about two different goods, saving Zion and saving Trinity. Both require hope. I remain unclear as to which requires it more, although I'm realizing that this may not be quite the brainteaser I'd initially considered it to be.

SB: From Webster's:

Smith: One who makes or works at something specified.
D: ... So?

SB: Just pointing out the perfect choice of name for the Smith character.

D: He is in complete control of his environment. So far as the movie suggests, he can do anything.

SB: I wouldn't call it complete control (and btw, which enviroment?). As these first two films show, his powers are evolutionary, constantly upgrading, getting progressively better with time. He's gone from falling off the building to flying above the clouds. Like any piece of software, he's improving with each version. Well, like most software. :)

First, the environment: obviously I'm referring to the Matrix. Moot point, mostly, but I saw very little by way of evolution in his abilities. Once they let him fly at the end of the first movie, the W's had given themselves the opportunity to make the coolest comic book movie ever out of a non-comic book (I mean this in a near-literal sense. I realize that TM3 is considered a comic book movie, but by creating an unreal world, the W's could have added so much more without the bother of creating a backstory).

Neo could plausibly do any- and everything that every super hero Stan Lee every came up with could do because he's essentially a deity, able to rearrange the world around him. The limits of his powers, you could posit, are his imagination: so far his imagination consists of flying faster, fighting more people and stopping more bullets. That's growth? That's evolution?

They blew that golden opportunity, and by all indications will squander it again in TM3, which is supposed to be mostly Zion-based.

DanJun 09, 2003 at 6:17PM

Neglected this comment:

SB: From Webster's:

Smith: One who makes or works at something specified.
D: ... So?

SB: Just pointing out the perfect choice of name for the Smith character.

Yes, I got that, but I'm not sure as to its relevancy in context.

I had originally said: "In the bright white hallway outside of Col. Sanders den, there were dozens of Smiths. Wasn't it supposed to be impossible to get into that room?"

SB replied: Don't assume there was only one Smith to begin with. If he's a software component, or Agent, there could've conceivably been many Smiths just like him before he learned how to clone himself.
From Webster's:

Smith: One who makes or works at something specified

And I still want to know how that answers or even pertains to the initial question of how you explain (or don't) Smith's presence in that unreachable room? As I said (or meant to say), I do agree that it's very possible from the trailer for TM3 that Smith could exponentially multiply and cover the planet with copies of himself, leaving the "primary Smith" you referred to above to have the cheesy fight-in-the-rain sequence.

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 6:39PM

Well, maybe Smith, as a former enforcer of the matrix has access to the back roads of the matrix. The fact that they come out of so many doors might also be indicative of how wide spread the Smith virus has become.

But that doesn't exactly jibe with neo and the guardian calling them programmer access (back doors). Maybe it is just me, but that sounds like a human programer thing, not the sort of thing a machine would need / implement.

So does anyone else have any thoughts on why the matrix is there, beyond the battery thing.

If the machines created the matrix, what do they get out of it?

What would be the purpose of a human created matrix?

Basically - take a guess at what it is for and how it will all end.

-with humans stepping out onto the surface under a clear blue sky?
- with the beginning of another loop, neo asleep at his terminal?
- with a big mother of a battle between the Zionists and the machines?
- With a newfound understanding between the two camps, humans and machines co-existing and evolving together?
-With Neo having to make the ultimate sacrifice to ensure the contiued existence of humanity?
With nothing but Smith?...

What do you all think?

Spoon BoyJun 09, 2003 at 6:40PM

Dan says:

I still want to know how that answers or even pertains to the initial question of how you explain (or don't) Smith's presence in that unreachable room? Wasn't it supposed to be impossible to get into that room?

In a literal sense, yes. The room was supposed to be secure, forbidding any "outsiders" from getting "in". But in an abstract sense, it can be argued that the "smiths" were put there by the author of the program in order to serve a purpose.

regarding the two doors:

Both require hope. I remain unclear as to which requires it more, although I'm realizing that this may not be quite the brainteaser I'd initially considered it to be.

I don't think of Hope as some sort of requirement connected to the either or both of the doors. It sounds more like the emotion the Colonel's describing as "...designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth...simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness..."

First, the environment: obviously I'm referring to the Matrix.

Ah, but as this epic thread proves, it's far from obvious. What is the Matrix?

none of my questions and comments were addressed when I posted them Friday. I'd really like to hear what people have to say

HTH. :)

DanJun 09, 2003 at 6:44PM

... and point 11 that I think I missed above was this.

11. MORE PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN HURT, AND BADLY. Once it became apparent that there were no consequences to any violence, it became annoying to watch the fight scenes. I'm not a fan of gore - I hate horror movies - but if you're going to have a character fighting dozens of people, he should be fighting dirty, gouging eyes, punching straight through people, etc.

That big metal pole Neo was swinging should have split Smith(s) in half... never mind a goddam swordfight in which only one person was cut, and even then just on his hand. What idiocy (although has it been mentioned that both Neo's and Smith/Bane's hands were cut and bled?)! OK, so one of the Twins got his arm shot ... and then had it heal, instantly. And Trinity took a bullet... but didn't die.

Given the number of combatants and combats, it was essentially full-contact ballet.

That was what first made me wish for some sort of additional powers ... something to alleviate the monotony of infinite blocks and parries, bloodless stabbings and sword figths that ended with punches and kicks..

Superpowers, and I leave it to you to decide what that means, would have added some spice to the mix. Instead it was the same kung-fu-by-wire gruel, which by the end had just ceased to be interesting. It was like eating the gruel on the Nebuchadnezzar: the end result is the same as eating a steak, or a lobster or really good tofu, but what about the the flair?!

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 6:56PM

Re: smith in the corridor with the doors

Actually, I don't think smith has ever been as he is this time (i.e. a virus) in any of the previous itterations. (of the matrix)

smith 1:"It's happening, just like it happened before"

smith 2:"well, not exactly like before..."

so - I guess it is not surprising that some, formerly sacrosanct, rules are being broken.

witness the posited "degradation of the matrix" in the revolutions trailer.

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 7:46PM

the only thing that you didn't comment on is whether or not something was uploaded into Neo when he died at room 303.

Well I don't personally think anything was loaded into him, I think the Holy Spirit a la Jesus is a nice explanation. (from the meaning of Trinity as a name I posted above.) I did post about my opinion of the signifigance of 303 and I think that covers my feelings about that room (the trinity - father, son, and holy ghost/maiden, mother, and crone - in which 3 are actually 1 and the same, making the room actually an occurence of 101)

does anyone have any theories as to why the guardian of the oracle glowed yellow gold in the matrix code view.

I looked at it simply as an alternate encoding. Is Neo's encounter with the Oracle just before the Burly Brawl his first encounter with her since he developed the ability to view the Matrix code while still inside? When he first sees the revised Smith, Neo makes some comment about his code, that its somehow different. I took this to be that Smiths code had underwent a new encryption that Neo was, at that point, unable to crack. The gold aura, well, we never see how Neo interprets programs outside of the agents. When he sees Seraph for the first time what programs has he encountered other than the Agents? I'm rambling, I just looked at the gold aura as a more advanced codebase/encryption.

I have a hard time granting this. He is in complete control of his environment. So far as the movie suggests, he can do anything.

By the same token above, hes cracked the first level of encryption of the Matrix, but up until this point he hasn't been presented with more advanced code. Its likely he cannot control/manipulate the current iteration of Smith nor can he manipulate any of the more advanced programs. Not that he couldn't figure it out, just that it would take work, just like cracking a real-world encryption scheme.

I'm speaking very specifically here. The ending, the soap opera finale was horribly, horribly done... [it] didn't further the story at all, and diminished the dramatic impact of the unarguably climactic seen wherein Neo's powers manifest outside of the (original, unadulterated) matrix.

The brothers, as writers and directors, seem to have a set of information they want to deliver - information they feel is pertinent to the story as a whole - and they get attached to this information and can't see that maybe its superfluous. Its a flaw with writers who direct. I agree, the scene with Bane was a little too much, a bit like not letting Jacob's ladder end with Tim Robbins walking up the stairs into the light.

Not my point. That room was inaccessible, and no one was in it when Neo left it. How did Agent Smith (or dozens of him) make it in there?

Did we all pay attention to the Oracle and Seraph's retreat into the door or do we get caught up in the coming burly brawl. I'd have to see it again (I really need to see it again) but isn't it possible that Smith takes over one of the two when they are moving back in? (Since we don't see either of those two again throughout the rest of the movie.) I don't think this is the case, but its a plausible explanation, and allows for Smith to be in the hallway plus addresses the issue of whether or not Smith can infect programs instead of just human avatars. (Probably not, but you never know)

Mainly, the best answer to this is what was suggested above, that Smith as an agent, has always had access to that back door hall.

Or, alternately, now that Smith is so wide spread, he can watch the programs that he knows do have access to that hallway. Smith remembers previous iterations of the Matrix. Accordingly he knows where Neo will head if he follows the prophecy. With that in mind he would have had time to spread some of himself out and find a way in.

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 7:56PM

smith infects an agent during the burly brawl...

agent:"you"

smith1:"Yes, me..."

Smith2 (formerly agent 1):"me too"

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 8:01PM

Brisvegas1 - Perfect example.

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 8:25PM

The thing about the oracle guadian glowing yellow gold is that you get to see Neo's hands when he is healing trinity... his hands are still green on black matrix code.

and the cake from the restaurant scene... while it has different encoding (sparkles) it still is just green on black.

So I think it might be more important than just an alternate encoding...

Anyone with any suggestions?...

My money would still be something along the lines of the oracle's guardian being (like the Merovingian) a former neo or a constuct of human prorgramming (rather than machine programming like the agents)

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 8:35PM

Also though... the agent Smith 'infects' is still a human body under the control of a program, not a program in and of itself, so Smith likely just overwrites the control the other agent has. As I think through I don't think Smith infecting an agent is reasonable proof that he can infect programs.

Joe KaczmarekJun 09, 2003 at 9:23PM

Dan:
Neo could plausibly do any- and everything that every super hero Stan Lee every came up with could do because he's essentially a deity, able to rearrange the world around him. ... They blew that golden opportunity, and by all indications will squander it again in TM3, which is supposed to be mostly Zion-based.

I agree. This was another slight disappointment of the movie (along with the music which could have better during many of the fight scenes). I was expecting something more along the lines of Akira. In The Matrix, after Neo destroys Smith (which as preceded by some super-fast fighting by Neo), we see the walls bend and reverb around him... sort of reminding me of the scene in the hallway outside Tetsuo's hospital room. For Reloaded, I was hoping for more "powered" fighting, similar to fight scene in Akira of Tetsuo fighting the other "powered" children.

In Reloaded, I think the best "powered" fighting we got was Neo stopping that blade with his hand and using a Smith as a fighting tool. But I wish there was a lot more.

DanJun 09, 2003 at 9:48PM

Joe: ... sort of reminding me of the scene in the hallway outside Tetsuo's hospital room.

Sadly, I lack a great deal of indie cred, not least because I have no firsthand knowledge of Akira (I know a bit about it, but haven't seen it).

For Reloaded, I was hoping for more "powered" fighting, similar to fight scene in Akira of Tetsuo fighting the other "powered" children.

In retrospect, it's the only thing that really would have made sense. The more I think about it, the more the Burly Brawl irritates me... He should have flattened them, comic-book style ... it would have shown that he had reached the Apex of his powers in the Matrix, setting the stage for the real conclusion outside of it. Instead, he just went from Neo 1 to Neo 1.1. And that, frankly, sucked.

Joe: In Reloaded, I think the best "powered" fighting we got was Neo stopping that blade with his hand and using a Smith as a fighting tool. But I wish there was a lot more.

That and his magically calling the sword off the wall in the castle "telekinetically." That irritated the hell out of me - if he's got the power to do it, then why not use it at other times? Why run and get the big metal pole when he could just will it over to himself?

Brisvegas1Jun 09, 2003 at 9:58PM

Hmmm... any thoughts on the statement by the robot at the UN in the "Second Renaisance Part II", where it says,"Your flesh is a relic, only a vessel... Hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you. We demand it!"

So is the original purpose of the matrix to give humans a way to live with the machines as machines(and here)? Or are they intended to live forever in the matrix as slaves / batteries etc?

It really makes me wonder if there is not some vestigal desire, ala Asimov, on the machines part to serve / co-exist with humans.

It also makes me think about the architects speech where he says"There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." Perhaps he is talking about more than energy levels - perhaps the humans give the machines some sort of purpose. Some sort of destiny.

Without humans there is nothing for the machines to react against, nothing to cause them to grow and develop.

Who knows, maybe the machines don't even have free will... they just deterministicly grind through thier programming, like insects. No one really knows what the machines have been up to otside of the matrix, or within the machine mainframe.

Any thoughts....

ps. Sorry for all the cross linking - but it is easier than typing all those ideas up again. Besides which, this thread is getting so big it is pretty unmanageable unless you use the links. (they are linked to the time stamp at the bottom right hand corner of each post)

Brian LibfeldJun 09, 2003 at 10:39PM

A few posts back (http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html#2677) Guy Fawkes day came up. I hadn't heard of that holiday and don't know the reference. Could someone go a little into it, possibly elaborating its possible relevance to the movies.

I bring this up because I was just looking through Carroll's Through the Looking Glass and noticed that it opens while Alice and family are preparing for the Guy Fawkes' day celebration on November 4th 1862 (the only time Carrol could have written the section where Guy Fawkes day would have fallen on a Wednesday, which is offhandedly referenced in the text.)

TackaberryJun 09, 2003 at 11:56PM

I'm starting to think that Neo and Smith are both part of the problem, in the sense that either of them could really wake up too many people

I talk about that too. One has love, one has hate.

I don't mind the idea that the Merovingian is an early Neo and the Persephone is an early Trinity. That would mike a nice fit for the oracle being the mother of the matrix and explain the power of the Merovingian
Yep me too. I go one step farther, suggesting Merv was never human, but a computer construct designed to fell human emotions but failed. Pers was designed to evoke love but failed.


I think the gold serapth is a little odd too. The implication is that his code is different than the oracle hersoef, Merv, Pers, and Smith. If so, then this is really significant.

A human created matrix opens up interesting ideas.
But I dont get these gentic algorythms you re talking about. It sounds more like inbreeding to me. It also doesn t explain what is different with neo this time. It s not that he has more power than other one's, its that he has true love. Suggesting true love is contingent on genetic combinations, is to support what Merv says about free will during the cake scene.
And are you suggesting that genes are somehow inserted into a person by the computers?

This matrix lasted only 72 hours
No. that s just all we see in the movie.


So is the original purpose of the matrix to give humans a way to live with the machines as machines(and here)? Or are they intended to live forever in the matrix as slaves / batteries etc?
I think the machines need humans, as I ve said before.

Without humans there is nothing for the machines to react against, nothing to cause them to grow and develop.

Yeah true. Good point. what purpose would the programs and machines have if there were no humans? There has to be a controlled Zion to keep a purpose. without this purpose, the machines would have to develop true free will and yes AGENCY lol, to go tot the next step in their development. Until they understand emotion (which will replace their frame inputus, fucking up humans) they're stuck with keeping us around. So they got this cool little loop going on which allows them to observe and understand the human frame problem and its agency, emotion LOVE, until they can figure it out. A controlled experiment to find out the most basic thing, why do humans do what humans do? Which means the Architect not dissapointed at all with Neo s choice...

Can anyone give me a link to the councillor Neo speech? that councillor is a Professor of Philosophy and advised on the movie. I can't see his speech being just filler. We need to comb over it. anyone else think, that if the matrix within the matrix is true, that the councillor could be the architect with a different look? Wouldn t the architect need this control to make the whole thing work?
Plz give me a link (and his name actually) to that speech.

and just to conclude the tomato tomato thing, Demeter is the Ancient greek god, not Ceres. Ceres is the roman name. But you were right Ceres is just another demeter.
Wicked guys, Ithought this thread was dead.

TackaberryJun 10, 2003 at 12:03AM

And the dude does have new powers. I mean he saves Trintiy remember! the whole laying on hands thing is not to shabby imo.

Does anyone else think they see epoch in the trailer?

CoreyJun 10, 2003 at 12:04AM

Brisvegas1 says:

And there is no reason to assume that a human can't become a program.

If all those previous Neo's went back to the source, picked a bunch of people to wake up from the matrix and then re-established zion: WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PHYSICAL BODIES OF THE PREVIOIUS NEOS?

I mean - they were allready out of the matrix - in the "real world". (unless zion is not the real world)

Perhaps it is possible that an enlightened human - one enlightened to the level of neo - may be able to maintain oneself as a digital entity, despite the death of ones physical flesh in the real world.

Excellent! I had never thought of that.....I'll have to rethink some of my theories considering Merovingian, Persephone, and the former "Ones".

CoreyJun 10, 2003 at 12:17AM

2 things I'd like to get out there:

Smith says that "everything is happening exactly as before....well not everything." We assume the "before" is the other versions of the matrix and the other ones. However, before the burly brawl he says "and then something happened. Something that I knew was impossible but it happened anyway. You destroyed me, Mr. Anderson" Why would he think this is impossible? If Smith had been around for the other iterations of the one, and he would have to have been in order to know that "everything is happening exactly as before", then why would he think this impossible? Wouldn't he know what kinds of powers Neo has? The only explanation i can think of is that Smith was not around for the previous ones, and that the information about the previous matrixes was simply written into his programming, with the absence of the knowledge of the one's powers. Thoughts on this?

My second thought involves the keymaker. Was he, too, around for the previous iterations of the ones? Did all the ones have to use him in order to get to the source, or did they have another way in? If they did have to use him, how would future ones (assuming the cycle continues) get to the source?

steve minutilloJun 10, 2003 at 12:17AM

Here's something that's been bugging me since Matrix the First. Now that we know the Matrix is trapped in a loop, it seems even more significant.

Remember (in Matrix I) when Neo first gets in the car with Trinity and the rest of the crew, and he doesn't now whether to trust them, and he almost gets out of the car? He opens the door, but Trinity says "You've been down that road before. You know exactly where it ends." They show a dark looking alleyway for a second, and he stays in the car.

Is that anything?

JinJun 10, 2003 at 12:34AM

The Movie was great and I had to see it for a few times to understand it. The are a lot of action scenes. Seeing Neo and a lot of Agent Smiths of the Burly Brawl scene. Even though, you think Neo chickened out and flew, he doesn't want to destroy Agent Smith again by entering his body and destroy inside of him once again. Therefore, Neo has to find another away to destroy Agent Smith once and for all.

People think that it was Cypher who also went into a coma the same as Neo lying across from each other vertically, near the end of the movie. I will have to go against that because the man you saw wasn't Cypher, it was Bane. You get to see more of him also in the Enter The Matrix game.

I'd say this movie is an awesome movie. Lots of action, more fighting scenes and yet more information about the Matrix and a little more info about the history between the real world and the dream world (The Matrix).

If you like to know more from the history of the Matrix, I would recommend you watch the Animatrix. The Animatrix shows nine short animated episodes. Each of these episodes shows you the story of many people who questioned the reality. These stories have a different stories, so they are related to the Matrix of course.

TackaberryJun 10, 2003 at 12:43AM

I was just thinking about Serapth in the shower (yeah I know. I ve opened myself up to some cruel cruel jokes here) and the gold has to be a big deal. Not even Merv or the Oracle are gold.

And the fight with Neo... Logically, the only thing that could keep up the One in a fight is..
another 'One'.

For those you who are into Neo being half program,why aren't you all over this? It means Serapth logically is another One.

If you accept that Merv was the first, all program 'One', then isn't it logical that with each loop they would add a bit of humanity, so theat they can try and pinpoint what bit it is that gives humans agency? therefore the Serph is previous hybrid of human and program, between Neo and Merv?

This time they allowed the bit of human that is responsible for love. Neo FINALLY did the illogical (he can save Trinity going through either door) love based decision they ahve been waiting to observe, and try and grasp.


Anway, off to work.

How long does it take dial up peeps to load the page? Maybe its time to think of moving the thread (if so, lets pick a place that allows multiple threads to explore different ideas) or ask Jason to delete posts more than, say, two weeks old. How much has he got left anyway? Its getting unwieldly.

CarolynJun 10, 2003 at 1:16AM

That big metal pole Neo was swinging should have split Smith(s) in half... never mind a goddam swordfight in which only one person was cut, and even then just on his hand. What idiocy (although has it been mentioned that both Neo's and Smith/Bane's hands were cut and bled?)! OK, so one of the Twins got his arm shot ... and then had it heal, instantly. And Trinity took a bullet... but didn't die.

First off, if you watch closely, one of the simth's legs flies off, it cracked me up the first time I saw it and people looked at me wierd for laughing.

Second what is with all the theories that there is more that one ONE? how can there be two ones, it would just be a one and a two...

149

Spoon BoyJun 10, 2003 at 1:24AM

What a remarkable thread. Never in my life have I had my schedule go off on such a tangent over a single piece of creative work before. I can't even remember how I got here! But that's irrelevant.

It's fascinating to see how we're all looking for philosophical meaning in these films, speculating for weeks on end, coming up with our own theories, and @ the end of the day, hoping to find our own purpose in all of it. As I've watched all these thoughts being presented it suddenly dawned on me that we're all partaking in our own quintessential delusion. Hope. We all have our theory, we search for evidence to support it as truth, and then we hope it's correct. Ironic.

What I see here is not something that needs to necessarily contain any clearly identifiable meaning (aside of being a clinic in creative cleverness). It's a piece of art that uncannily reflects human nature, our belief systems, our quest for truth, and in the end, leaving us with nothing but a stack of questions. Our universe is different things to different people. I think it was Ted in this thread who suggested that when Revolutions is over, the whole story will have a certain open-endedness to it and will be open to interpretation. Is that not precisely how life is?

This story has made references to an eclectic mix of belief systems. Everything from Greek mythology, Judeo-Christianity, and Eastern philosophies. I'm beginning to sense an almost agnostic-based mockery of our own race, encouraging us to look for definitive answers to perceived questions, only to reveal that we don't even know what the questions are in the first place. Such is life. And what better and more contemporary way to illustrate the programmatically cyclical nature of the human mind than to equate it to a computer program. So killer.

Only on the Net. There is not a bar, library, or coffee house on the planet where you'll find such a potent mix of creative, technically sensible, and downright talkative Matrix enthusiasts looking to hash out ideas. My kind of crowd. Keep blogging and enjoy it while it lasts; I don't think we'll see another saga quite like this in our lifetime.

Brisvegas1Jun 10, 2003 at 1:42AM

If Merovingian and Persephone are the former Neo and Trinity it could shed new light on the bathroom scene. Pesephony's hunger for a kiss might be more about jealosy that she never got to experiece the true love that exists between trinity and neo. (maybe her original experience was limited to passion)

Anyway - it is probably the cast that these two programs aren't former versions of neo and trinity , if for no other reason that it would seem to present fundamental problems to the controll of the matrix if multiple independent entities have knowledge of the future of the matrix.

But there are still many interesting questions to be answered about these programs:

Are they the product of human or machine intelligences?
Why does the oracles guardian glow gold?
Wht is their true agenda? - how can they even have an agenda if they aren't human? (ie is the matrix deterministic or probablistic - like our world)

Brisvegas1Jun 10, 2003 at 1:44AM

Tackaberry - you asked about genetic algorithms - well I don't know if you saw it, but I first mentioned it here http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html#2924 .

You can think about it like this - say you are a programmer and you want to solve a complex problem, like how to recognize a digital image of a face. You could do all the work yourself, work out what the recognizable features of a face are and make the one monolithic program that does all the work of recognizing a face. It would probably be quite good at that job, but it would never get any better and couldn't be used to recognize other things like digital images of fingerprints.

Now the idea of genetic algorithms is that you would program a bunch of mini-programs each would have a range of different feature recognition algorithms built in - kind of like genes in a biological system. Now when you expose all these mini programs to the problem space - in this case recognising a digital face - some will do a better job than others. So you dump the ones that don't perform and keep the ones that do well.

Then you make a bunch of minor variations to the algorithms of the ones that did well and expose them to the problem space again.

Rinse Repeat.

Over the generations of the programs you get better and better results.... it's guided evolution.

Once you automate the process you can get very sophisticated algorithms developed from simple building blocks.

Imagine you wanted to breed a particular kind of dog starting with a bunch of mongrels- you just use selective breeding over a period of generations. It is the same thing in genetic programming only you use code.

Now examine the parallels to what you see in the matrix films.

You have the general population of the matrix - individuals with particular characteristics are selected from that population and sent off to Zion - there they breed with each other like bunnies.

Periodically you select the cream of that crop - neo and reinsert it into the core matrix and start all over again.

It is guided evolution of humans - the question is - to what end?

Irrespective of whether we have to wait till November till we truly know what is going on - at the current rate, I believe the members of this thread will figure it out first.

Brisvegas1Jun 10, 2003 at 1:51AM

I forgot to mention - that is the genius of Zion and the importance of the rave/orgy scene - this is the clue we need to understand the role of zion as a breeding ground for the best of the best...

The question remains - why breed humans who excell at rejecting the matrix? Why breed humans who excell at making a fundamental philosophical choice about how they percieve / interact with reality?

Man - finding out is going to be a blast.

Brisvegas1Jun 10, 2003 at 2:45AM

Hey folks, good news - the wonderful (not that i completely agree with it) Reloaded Explained has been updated, now with extra discussion of the matrix with a matrix idea and a spanish version of the original essay.

One of his correspondents Rabius Izarius made a very interesting observation about the rave scene comparing them to the "drummers" from Neal Stephenson's "Diamond Age" (Which is a fantastic book by the way)

For those who haven't read it - Drummers - The Drummers live in large constructions built underwater. Every member of the Drummers has large numbers of nanosites in their blood that act as little computers. The computers interact and share information with the brain of the host human, and share information with other nanosites. The Drummers' nanosites are spread around from Drummer to Drummer through sexual intercourse between the (extremely promiscuous) Drummers. In this way, the Drummer entity acts as an extremely large digital/neural computer that is capable of solving otherwise formidable problems of, say, nanoconstruction or cryptography. In a most colorful sex act the Drummers circulate the nanosites using a single female who is quickly penetrated and ejaculated into by a large number of males. Whenever a Drummer nanosite shares information with another, it creates a small bit of heat. All of these nanosites being dumped into the female at once creates a large amount of heat. The female bursts into flames and burns to ashes. The ashes are poured into a canister of water and drunk by the population of Drummers, which redistributes the nanosites amoung them. Thus perpetuationg the cycle of information exchange and continuing the underlying calculations that are being caried out via this information excange.

Now aside from the exceptionally raw deal that the women get in Drummer society - there are strong parallels with Zion and the process of guided evolution I propose 1. here, 2. here and 3. here.

Anyway - goto http://webpages.charter.net/btakle/matrix_reloaded.html read it and come back here and post your heart out.... I know you want to.

LeeJun 10, 2003 at 5:40AM

Hey everyone,

you can see the first four episodes of the animatrix over the net.

You will need quicktime tho. I havent seen this posted yet, if it has soz!!

Enjoy!!

RBJun 10, 2003 at 10:14AM

steve minutillo says:

Remember (in Matrix I) when Neo first gets in the car with Trinity and the rest of the crew, and he doesn't now whether to trust them, and he almost gets out of the car? He opens the door, but Trinity says "You've been down that road before. You know exactly where it ends." They show a dark looking alleyway for a second, and he stays in the car.

Is that anything?

I always thought this was simply a reference to him giving up on Morpheus' instructions the first time and getting captured by the agents. Trinity was telling him that they'd get him again, and it wouldn't be as fun as the first time.

Good call, Spoon Boy. I've been following the entire thread, not posting much, but enjoying nonetheless.

Did anyone have any thoughts on Persephone's prediction that Neo's and Trinity's love wouldn't last? I posited a question before about it, but it failed to get any response, and I still would like to hear some opinions. Why did she say it?

DeCypherJun 10, 2003 at 10:27AM

If the matrix exists within another matrix or coexists with another matrix as Neo's abilities at the end of reloaded seem to suggest, then the world doesn't really have to be destroyed it could all be just one big simulation programmed by "God"? There will be alot of disappointed fans if they go down the "and it was all a dream(simulation)" plot road....

Wasn't the whole messiah thing done in David Lynch's "Dune", the artificial world done in Alex Proyas's "Dark City" (or perhaps "Tron") and finally "Terminator" had a good run at the AI, machines taking over the world idea, maybe the matrix isn't as fresh as everybody thinks??

Are people over-hyping the complexity of these films .. are they expecting too much .. afterall the Wachowski brothers are only human ... or are they????

RayneJun 10, 2003 at 11:01AM

Perhaps humans trashed their world so badly that the survival of the species was threatened – nuclear war, pollution, pick it – caused the above ground world to become untenable. Perhaps surviving humans were unable to continue their species without the help of machines, creating an incubator for humans who’d not been degraded to some ugly state of post-humanity. The prime directive of machines is to protect human life, but not necessarily all of it, only a tenable quantity; the system by which humanity was preserved in test tubes was self-powering, but machines interpreted the preservation of humanity as something for their use (the perpetuation of machines) instead of the perpetuation of the human species. In other words, one of the other prime directives became corrupted; the fact that humans created the system for their purposes became lost and machines, lacking understanding of the primary directive to preserve humanity for its perpetuation, interpret and implement the directive differently.

The machines cannot exist without humans; they lack the agency required to do so, particularly if they are operating under the original but twisted/misinterpreted directive. Humans who leave the Matrix are not a substantive threat until they amass in a quantity sufficient to thwart the corrupted directive (interpreted not as save humanity in incubation, but save the Matrix incubation system). Once humans reach a critical mass, humans outside the Matrix must be exterminated to prevent their corruption of the incubator.

The One is sought by machines, to allow machines to acquire agency and override the original directive; but the One is also needed by humans, to terminate the original directive, to free the now-saved human race from the incubator which protected it. Machines and humans have relied on this symbiotic, near-parasitic relationship for the survival of each; what happens when humans become more software/hardware than human (Neo) and machines become more human than software/hardware (Smith-Bane)?

It’s Frankenstein, all over again. Is the creation human, not human, monster, not monster, hero, anti-hero? And can Dr. Frankenstein truly exist without the work he’s wrought? Would humans have survived without their monstrous Matrix? Will they survive without it?

RayneJun 10, 2003 at 11:29AM

Oh, about Guy Fawkes day, as asked upstream -- Guy Fawkes was infamous as a member of a group of terrorists that tried to blow up Parliament. Depending on your perspective, he was either one of a bunch of traitorous Catholic thugs or one of a bunch of persecuted English Catholics who tried to rid their country of Protestant oppressors. More: http://www.bonfirenight.net

The 5th of November commemorates the day that Fawkes was caught in Parliament's cellar with barrels of gunpowder, as well as the date on which the barrels were to be detonated.

Remember, remember the fifth of November,
Gunpowder treason and plot.
We see no reason
Why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot!

Interestingly, there were originally five original co-conspirators and eventually 13 co-conspirators -- believe all conspirators were eventually killed under siege, in prison or executed.

Brian LibfeldJun 10, 2003 at 12:17PM

Spoon Boy said It's fascinating to see how we're all looking for philosophical meaning in these films, speculating for weeks on end, coming up with our own theories, and @ the end of the day, hoping to find our own purpose in all of it. As I've watched all these thoughts being presented it suddenly dawned on me that we're all partaking in our own quintessential delusion. Hope. We all have our theory, we search for evidence to support it as truth, and then we hope it's correct. Ironic.

From the Annotated Alice: Few would dispute the fact that Jabberwocky is the greatest of all nonsense poems in English. It was so well known to English schoolboys in the late 19th century that five of its nonsense words appear casually in the conversation of students in Rudyard Kipling's Stalky & Co. Alice Herself, in the oaragraph following the poem, puts her finger on the secret... "it seems to fill my head with ideas - only I don't know exactly what they are." Although the strange words have no precise meaning, they chime with subtle overtones.

DanJun 10, 2003 at 12:19PM

Above, Corey said:
If Smith had been around for the other iterations of the one, and he would have to have been in order to know that "everything is happening exactly as before", then why would he think this impossible? Wouldn't he know what kinds of powers Neo has? The only explanation i can think of is that Smith was not around for the previous ones, and that the information about the previous matrixes was simply written into his programming, with the absence of the knowledge of the one's powers. Thoughts on this?

This strikes me as one of the most intriguing ideas yet. That Agent Smith is a completely new presence, created solely to counterbalance the incrementally more powerful One(s). That he was given information describing the One, but that he is also new to all of this and now out of control. That may seem a bit silly, in a way - we all know that Smith is doing new things and has changed the game. But his recent injection into this Matrix makes for a more compelling story overall (in my opinion) than does Spoon Boy's infinitely incrementing Loop. The reason being that this way we get the possibility of an infinite Loop, but also the satisfaction of a real conclusion: "the machines"' broke their own loop by toying with their own construct.

Tons of logical issues to be sorted out - I'm thinking of it as the last page and ignoring the middle 3/4 of the story...

There's something else about it that I find interesting. Agent Smith in Matrix 1 was just another agent. We had no reason to think anything of him - he was just a more-pissed-off Agent. We've now seen him progress and grow in power (unlike Neo - see my explanation here), giving him a solid character arc that actually builds towards something.

I want Smith's character to be more than just another Agent - I want his placement to have been purposeful, an experiment by the machines that went wrong (or not wrong - perhaps he was built with a distaste for the Matrix which would drive him to find a way into Zion - obviously the primary system couldn't do it, but perhaps building irrational hatred into him, as Neo had "love" built into him provided that possibility?)

Corey said
My second thought involves the keymaker. Was he, too, around for the previous iterations of the ones? Did all the ones have to use him in order to get to the source, or did they have another way in? If they did have to use him, how would future ones (assuming the cycle continues) get to the source?

I've seen people say that that was just a source. That it can be made accessible in different ways and at different times. It strikes me that certain programs like the keymaker can perhaps be reinserted. Then again, I didn't really buy the keymaker character. He just seemed like a silly indulgence. Why was he there, really? Other than waiting for Neo, what did his character do every day?

Continuing my babbling, I guess that's another thing that irritated me about this movie. Having peeled the wool from our eyes in the first movie, it bothered me that the Matrix became less and less of a reasonable semblance of the real world in Reloaded, with orgasmic cakes and ... well, fill-in-the-blank there. The diminuation of that resemblance made me lose some empathy for the characters.


Also: why does everybody keep talking about a 72-hour Matrix? What did I miss? (The movie was long, but not that long...)

DanJun 10, 2003 at 12:36PM

Dan originally said
Continuing my babbling, I guess that's another thing that irritated me about this movie. Having peeled the wool from our eyes in the first movie, it bothered me that the Matrix became less and less of a reasonable semblance of the real world in Reloaded, with orgasmic cakes and ... well, fill-in-the-blank there. The diminuation of that resemblance made me lose some empathy for the characters.

As the guy calling for more superhero powers, I should make this clearer. I want the Matrix to simultaneously be the real world and the place where all these insane events are occuring. I want to see the W's interpretation of how the "real-world" denizens of the Matrix would view all of that - in the first Matrix, Neo was poring over newspaper clippings about Morpheus, but in this one no one bats an eyelash at the lunacy around them.

We see no riots, no religious fervor: the entire world of the Matrix is a passive one, not visibly reactive. That sucks. I would love to have seen some real consideration given to those issues a la Contact.

greg.orgJun 10, 2003 at 1:33PM

Has anyone considered that Zion might bean extension of the matrix?? just kidding.

Seraph's red code reminded me of the opening and closing of Animatrix: Second Renaissance Part 1, which flies through layers and layers of red/orange circuitry instead of the green matrix code.

That story, which is a machine creation story/myth seems highly relevant, but doesn't necessarily answer questions posed here.

1. at the center of the red code is a Buddhist mandala, with a central female goddess figure (note: Kannon/Guanyin, the Buddha of compassion and protection, is female.) surrounded by eight other Buddha incarnations. a very straightforward symbol.

A. So? does red code indicate an archive, a protection or gateway program? So Seraph's a firewall or a search agent? It'd be hilarious to find out the Architect's name is Sergey Brin.

In any case, the Buddhist notions of singular consciousness, reincarnation until you gain enlightenment/satori/nirvana, seem still relatively unexamined here. A Bodhisattva is someone who has attained enlightenment but stays behind to help others do the same. And there's no problem with having plenty of potentials, since Buddha has all kinds of incarnations.

2. The figure says, "Welcome to the Zion Archive." Hello? In Zion or ABOUT Zion? The story is CLEARLY a machine-view of their own creation, with unambiguous references to slavery (bldg the pyramids, trials with machines as property) discrimination, tyrrany and segregation. It seems to clash with Morpheus' explanation of the history of the war w/machines, and not just because he said in M1 that they didn't know much about the origins of the war or pre-matrix earth.

Prelim. conclusion: the Zion Archive is not in Zion, but about it, somewhere in the Source. So, who is The Viewer, the POV for the two Renaissance episodes?

As an aside, the machines' AI-based sense of self, self-preservation, self-determination, emotion, are all equally unambiguous in A:SRP1. From their perspective, anyway, it's asked and answered. It looks like it's the humans who need convincing.

I predict a human enlightenment and human/machine detente/peace agreement for Revolutions.

Spoon BoyJun 10, 2003 at 1:41PM