1000 comments no probs 'come on people we are not out yet'

'1000 is within reach'

in about 100 years you'll have over 32,200

Thx for hashing that out. Any estimate on how many years it'd take to reach a population of 250k?

regarding how long zion exists for in each cycle and how long it would take for a population growth of 250k.Those figures are a complete fabrication. The architect states that each version of the matrix lasts the same amount of time as it takes from the emergence of one integral annomally to the next. Assuming neo is around 35 years old, there is your answer( 35 years 250k people born; not a chance), only those in zion believe that there are 250k people(the architect mentions no figures), as they are led to believe this. Maybe only a few are human in zion and the rest are programs, and perhaps many of them that are freed from the matrix are also programs; they are allowed to be freed in order to keep up the pretence that the zionists are actually achieving some thing and that they are gaining ground in the apparently none existant war with the machines. EVERY THING IS BY DESIGN, SYSTEMS OF CONTROL EXIST THROUGHT THE MATRIX AND ZION, IN ORDER FOR THE WHY? TO BE FULLFILLED, THE ARCHITECTS WHY IS MOST VALID.

cheers jason for letting this thread continue it has been a good forum for debate, and given many the opportunity to exchange ideas with intelligent and like minded individuals.

Sidarta said:
Did anyone notice that the oracle said:"I said don't worry, I'll get one of my kids to fix it"
My kids... is this meant as just one of the Potential children that are in the waiting room...? Why my kids and not one of the kids? ...

We can assume that they are potential one's, though i dispute this as surely the oracle like the architect his aware of who the one is from his/her emergence. The architect certainly does, as i mentioned on the other thread; the architect has been monitoring neo's progress constantly (which is illustrated when neo reaches the architect on the screens).

so are they potential programs? are they potential infilitrators of zion? (spoon boy/zen boy) maybe im grasping but perhaps the potentials and 'The Kid' have an important role in m3. have they attained higher awareness through design, as this hightend awareness may serve the matrix or maybe helps the humans control the matrix. Perhaps the matrix is a better option for humans and there must be a large amount of people with hightened awareness to control the matrix and exercise more freedom within the system!

ahhhhhhhh The thread is gone. Nooooooooo. :-)
Well at least you still kept it on file for the public and kept it going. Thanks for letting the Best thread ever continue it's life.

Has anyone thought about the possibility that the W's might bring the movie to the level where Neo is not Digitally performing supernatural abilities but actually receives superhuman powers in the real world?

Just here me out.

Now most people believe that Neo stopped the Squiddy with his superhuman digital powers because Z10N is actually another Matrix. But what if Neo is the "ONE" because he has mental capabilities above and beyond the normal human.

If you look at the quick learning and advancement of Neo's powers and abilities within the Matrix you obviously get the impression that he possesses some kind of heightened ability from everyone else. Morpheus believed this from the beginning and chose Neo because he knew Neo has this ability and would use it to become the ONE.

After the movie I seriously doubted what the Architect had told Neo. Basically that there were other ones and that Z10N has been destroyed several times before and will be destroyed if he doesn’t rebuild it. So on and so forth. So I started to think………..

What if the reason the architect and all the computer programs (Oracle and Keymaker) are trying to find the one and make him take the right door to “who knows what”, just to control the humans that have developed some special (real world) powers threw the course of evolution. Kind of like the theory behind the X-Men; that threw human evolution MANKIND HAS DEVELOPED SOME KIND OF SUPERHUMAN ABILITIES. Now of course these individuals that develop this ability are in the matrix and not in the professors school.

Now Neo was released from the matrix where he starts to realize how to harness these powers and strengthen them (MORPHEUS: “If you can free your mind, the body will follow.” Then he goes back into the matrix and is forced to realize these power even more. By the time he reaches the Architech “the process had altered his consciousness” so much that he then obtains his true potential.

Now the machines of course don’t want anyone to realize their true potential so they create The Oracle to watch over everyone with abilities like the spoon boy. When those abilities increase to the level of the “ONE” that individual gets sent to the Architect to be assimilated by taking the right door. Now I don’t mean assimilated in a good term I mean DEAD.

The Computers know that at this point he is in tune with using his mental superpowers to the peak, and that if he leaves he will realize that he is telekinetic and telepathic. SO they try to give him a contingent affirmation that is meant to create a profound attachment to the rest his species so that he will make their choice. But Neo decides to take the door to the left and not be fooled by the architect. Then he uses his physic powers when he stops the squiddy, and that is the first true enlightenment in the movies thus far.

The W’s must have thought about this because the comparison is made in the Oracles living room where we see what today would be known as physic abilities. Girls (witches) and Buddhist monk children doing things that people in society today are thought to be able to do when enlightened.

Now wouldn’t that be quite the plot twist if in the third movie, Z10N is the real world and certain humans or just Neo learn how to use their minds to control their surroundings with physic abilities. And then we could realize that is why the machines imprisoned the human race: to stop us from realizing our true evolutionary potential.

check this site out regarding revolutions: maybe bull, though its sounds pretty good to me, maybe some truth in some of what was said.

http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix &Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Bell says: The architect states that each version of the matrix lasts the same amount of time as it takes from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the next.

The Architect says that he prefers counting how old the matrix is from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is would be the sixth version.

So what he is saying is that in his way of counting the Matrix is Six Years Old.


Bell says: have they attained higher awareness through design, as this heightened awareness may serve the matrix or maybe helps the humans control the matrix.


Exactly my point. Check out the post above.

Ghost, I think that you could be right to a point regarding the architect, i think there are untruths in what he says, as he wants to manipulate neo. Manipulation usualy invovles a great deal of lying. read the web site highlighted i think it might open a few more avenues of thought.

http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix &Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

well i found this on the net, as did the person before me it would seem. Beware this could be true...

***********Spoiler Start***************

Okay, Neo's in Matrix "limbo" - somehow his mind got "jacked in" to a train
stop outside the Matrix - the wild eyed guy in the Rev. trailer is the train
man, controlled by the Merovingian. The Oracle tells Trin and Morph this and
they threaten Merv (you're willing to die for this man?) and go and save Neo
(who in the meantime has met some new characters and had a vision of three
lines in the black dessert). Back in the real world now. Niobe gives Neo and
Trinity the logos ship after the Hammer powers it up so they can go to the
machine city (01) and try and save Zion. Meanwhile Bane (Smith) has
awakened, killed the nurse and snuck into the Logos. The Hammer heads back
to Zion to try and stop the sentinels with its emp as a last ditch effort,
and soon realize Bane has killed, escaped and must be on the Logos - but
it's too late to turn back and save Trin and Neo. Aboard the logos, Bane
blinds Neo with an electrical conduit during a fight before Neo kills him
(just after realizing he's smith inside) Trinity is beat up but okay to fly
the ship, with Neo's "second sight" - he can somehow sense the machines
life-force and "sees" them now. The Hammer tries to sneak back to Zion but
the sentinels hear them and chase them all the way home. Meanwhile, Zion is
getting the **** kicked out of it by all the sentinels. The crippled Hammer
crashes into Zion and blows it's EMP knocking out the remaining diggers and
sentinels. Meanwhile the logos is on the surface, flying over/by the fetus
fields and power plant, following three power lines to the city (like in his
vision). In Zion, they are trying to restore power while evacuating to the
deep tunnels and temple cave from Reloaded. More sentinels arrive in the
defenseless Zion and jump start a digger to continue into the bowels of Zion
and finish of the rest of it's people. Neo and Trinity have now crash landed
into the machine city after fending off bigger, meaner sentinels and an
armada of huge ships shooting shrimp bombs like from Reloaded. Trinity dies
from the crash and Neo goes on to confront a huge godlike machine that he
makes a deal with to confront smith and save the matrix (and the Ai's ?)
from being taken over (smith has altered the matrix and cloned himself into
everyone). Back in Zion the sentinels stop their attack at the last minute
and wait. The ai's jack Neo in and he fights smith, smith wins (neo pretends
to lose or fights long enough to prove he tried) and takes him over, but the
new clone freaks out, (the machine city ai has a direct link to smith now)
explodes and all the smiths explode or something... Neo dies as a result and
is hauled off by the AI's to who knows where. Everyone rejoices and the
matrix get's reloaded with a truce between man and machine.

"what about morpheus, the council and previous ones?" - morpheus navigates
the hammer for niobe (the best driver- I think ghost must be manning the
guns) and faces off with the sentinels at the opening to the zion temple
(story boards of this was spoiled a couple years ago), he may take part in a
fight to save neo, but that's about it - (he lives). i don't remember the
council being mentioned or anything about previous ones

"What about the kid" - he plays an important role durring the battle by
manning a fallen mech and shooting a chain on the zion dock door at the last
second, allowing it to open so the hammer can enter zion and use its emp. -
he lives

-no cypher, no matrix within a matrix, no phone booth scene from matrix one.

-seraph(puts up a good fight),oracle,important child (mentioned in
game)...all taken over by smith

I left out a lot of details obviously (fights,take-overs,etc.) but that's
the main jist of it.

hope you don't regret reading this!
////END SPOILER////

The stop of train station hold water, and kind of eradicates my matrix within a matrix theory (so im going to have to mull this over for some time).

ubb.empireonline.co.uk: Everyone rejoices and the
Matrix gets reloaded with a truce between man and machine.

Is that supposed to be some sort of happy ending? Not that I expect the ending to be happy but if the matrix gets reloaded I don't think that everyone will be rejoicing. THE ENTIRE PLOT OF THE MOVIE IS TO BRING THE MATRIX DOWN. If it doesn’t come down then the W's better be clever. And they are 

You know that’s another thing. Everyone says “It’s going to suck if there’s a matrix in a matrix.” But that all depends on how the W’s lay it out. There are so many variables that could make that scenario work.

But as far as that post goes... I give it a 6.5 in creativity, and if I could judge the truth behind it, it would get a 2.5 until I see proof.

Ghost said:
Now the machines of course don’t want anyone to realize their true potential so they create The Oracle to watch over everyone with abilities like the spoon boy. When those abilities increase to the level of the “ONE” that individual gets sent to the Architect to be assimilated by taking the right door. Now I don’t mean assimilated in a good term I mean DEAD.

Um, if that was all there was to it, why wouldn't the Architect just kill him?

No one else could, why would he be able to? Could be Neo was too strong:)

Or to continue the general gist of the thread... It could be that the Architect wanted Neo to go to the source for a dissemination of his mental abilities (code). This would be because the machines wanted to understand and reproduce how a mind (or spirit) could have abilities (telekinesis and telepathy) that defied the natural laws that the machines were originally programmed to comprehend.

You have to omit; it is an awesome theory. Although it’s a little shaky it would still be a great ending to a great story.

What'da ya think?

I have read this so called revolutions plot and it doesn't fly for me. It's very nice but I think the real ending of the trilogy will be different. I mean, how could some guy just get this from the internet. Or the Wachowski's have serious security problems and they screwed up the script, or everything is made up.

Anyways, I would like to ask the following.
Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real, or he should be watching Lois & Clark shows in the Matrix code all the time right? OR...
Zion is MAtrix too,...? or... Idunno'

after mulling over that revolution plot, i dont go along with the whole premise (though its the best one so far), though i think the half way station between the matrix and zion is quite intersting, you would assume there is some kind of link in order to filter out virus's etc, from one system to another. I think who ever wrote the plot premise watched the trailer and was just creative with it, If it is close to the truth i will be dissappointed!

siddarta says: Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real, or he should be watching Lois & Clark shows in the Matrix code all the time right? OR...
Zion is MAtrix too,...? or... Idunno'

Ive often wondered about that comment, it could be seen as a referentiail cinematic comment, though i look at the matrix with the highest of scrutiny, if he was plugged to the matrix there is a possibility that he may have read a comic, but he is home grown and i doubt zion has DC comics lying about lying about.

in m1 when neo is in the tunnel, and just about to get into the car with switch and trin, written on the wall (graffiti) is TANK IS WRONG. i have no idea what it refers to?anybody

after watching m2 again, i think persophone is the mother, her motive for allowing them to have the keymaker can not be souly down to playing games with her hubby. (i know this topic has come up before) her kiss with neo is under the direction of the architect, it is a means of testing the bond between neo and trinity. The strength of there love and trust is tested when neo kisses persophone, Knowing the strength of their bond, this allow's the architect to play his ace; is ace being neo's obvious loyalty to trinity, neo will do anything to save her. so he shows trin in danger knowing very well which door neo is going to take, which brings us back to the architect's WHY? knowing the WHY is knowing everything one suspects.

siddarta, perhaps link was browsing through the zion archive, and saw Superman the movie!

when neo meets the oracle at the playground, she mentions her concern for the future, she is eluding to the survival of both programs and humans in the matrix, presumebly getting on. smith is the destructive part of neo that threatens to destroy the matrix. Though smith says that things are different this time, suggesting that he never multiplied as he does in previous matrix's. if the other matrix's did exist how then were they threatend, where did the threat come from (is it because the 'one' went through the left door earlier not allowing smith to become as powerfull in earlier versions of the matrix?)

the 2 slashes on bains hand when he cuts himself, are they significant marking's of any kind?

using the hades/merovingian theory, maybe the entire matrix is the underworld (basement so to speak) part of a larger construct. Neo is being promoted very quickly through higher levels, each level seems to be real, when neo realises its not something else is thrown at him. so what gonna be thrown at him when he realises zion is fake? a desert with 3 lines perhaps?

Bell said: if the other matrix's did exist how then were they threatend, where did the threat come from
the real threat is still the inefficiency that the matrix is working on. cfr. "did you know that the first matrix was originally designed to be a perfect world? It was a disaster..."
So actually, AI is still figuring out how to run the matrix in a better way for human beings to accept it. AI as such is just too perfect to make something imperfect for humans.
Hence, AI needs the different Ones to changes the code of the matrix and make it work better. If the matrix doesn't get reloaded from time to time, at the end everyone will die, or better the human-machine symbiosis will die.
Because I don't think the machines need the humans for their energy, if they have fusion. And also I think they're smart enough to solve the problem of the scorced sky. It's just symbiosis.
As for the hand cutting part, zion beeing fake etc... see the old threat.

You're all still here! How nice to hit the blog and not have to wait for 40 seconds for the thing to load. Thanks to our host for taking care of that. This new revolution should take us through the end of August before needing another reload.

siddarta says:

Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real

Ha! You caught 'em! To be fair, I'd say that it wouldn't be inconceivable for a knowledgeable guy like Link to be familiar with Superman. Although he's never jacked into the Matrix himself, he does have the skills necessary to observe from the outside with the Neb's monitoring tools. My only question: was he was thinking about George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, or Dean Cain?

As I typed that, a certain similarity to Keanu Reeves jumped out @ me. Go figure.

bell says:

in m1 when neo is in the tunnel, and just about to get into the car with switch and trin, written on the wall (graffiti) is TANK IS WRONG. i have no idea what it refers to?anybody

Nice catch, worthy of analysis. There's a particular line from M1 that comes to mind:

TANK: Me and my brother Dozer, we are 100 percent pure, old-fashioned, home-grown human. Born free. Right here in the real world.

So wrong. Btw, how'd you like my artwork? ;)

okay folks - well haven't posted in a while, but I was watching the animatrix on DVD for the first time tonight (man is it ever pretty) and I had a thought.

In the episode "A detective story" trinity says to the sam spade style detective..."there is a difference betweena trap and test"

This got me thinking - what if the matrix is just a giant turing test.

I don't know if it is a test for machine intelligence or for human intelligence - but what if it isn't a trap - what if it is a test.

whoever rejects the matrix - passes.

but I don't think it is an intelligence test - or even an artificial intelligence test. Afer all - the test subjects are being asked to ignore the reality of their experience - to forget the rules of the world.

perhaps it is an emotion test - even a "consciousness test"

who knows - maybe it is an alien intelligences way of trying to figure out if humans are conscious self aware life....

in the end - the nature of the choices - left door or right, red pill or blue - binary choices strikes me as being very interesting.

what does it mean - for an entity to reject everything it knows about reality, to ignore all of it's day to day experiences - and chose the red pill - choose to find out the "truth".

is that what seperates life from simple chemistry and physics...

hmmm...

Man I hope the W. Bros have something absolutely brain smashingly, noodle bakingly good for us in revolutions.

ps - it really is worth watching the animatrix again and again... each time I watch it I catch more and more that appears to be directly related to the movies.


We all know the obvious ones -
kids story vs. the spoon delivery kid
final flight of the osiris vs. the osiris data drop

but what about the others -
The haunted house in Beyound where the rules of the matrix are bent/ broken => the concept of the matrix degrading in revolutions.

another example of self substantiation in "world record".

the "tests" / choice in both "the program" and "a detective story".

the test / choice in matriculated.

the idea in matriculated that machines don't know the difference between a "simulated reality" and a real one...

so much that can be profitably added to the matrix cannon.

i am so looking forward to the super special limited editon directors cut version with the audio commentary that explains all of this...

Brisvegas says:

In the episode "A detective story" trinity says to the sam spade style detective..."there is a difference betweena trap and test"

In first few scenes of M1, we learn that Neo is simply the next target on the Neb's long List Of Candidate Ones. It makes sense that these "candidates" would undergo a screening test of sorts. The "tests", given to Neo and the detectives by Trinity and her cohorts, seem to be aimed @ their curiosities, testing the degree of how far they'll go to find the answers. Why? Because the One would go all the way. From the Nebbers' point of view, such a test would serve as a practical way to eliminate non-Ones.

I'm not entirely sure if the detective in "A Detective Story" was a pre-Neo target that the Nebbers suspected could be the One. However, it makes sense that this is precisely what was happening with his hunt for Trinity: While the detective thought he was finding her (and Morpheus), it was she (and Morpheus) who found him. This is very similar to Neo's search for Morpheus in M1. Also note that @ least two of the three detectives (targets?) before him failed their own respective tests: One commited suicide, the other went insane. The third disappeared. It can be argued that the third left the Matrix successfully. Hmm... Bane?

Regarding "World Record":

I just tripped on how this phrase contains two contextual meanings:

1. "World Record", as in "the highest accomplishment for this track event ever recorded in the world", as portrayed in the Animatrix.

2. "World Record", as in "the known recorded history of the world."

Spoon Boy and Brisvegas and all others, glad to see you're back!

I was thinking of the following:
A little thought experiment:

“Leave me with him… now!”
The Agents seem to not immediately understand, but obey Smith.
Smith is doing something odd in their eyes.

“… I hate this place, this Zoo, this reality or whatever you want to call it… It’s the smell!...”
Smith hates the Matrix, he doesn’t want to be in the Matrix forever. Because all he gets to do is finding those idiots from Zion with the aim of finding the One and ultimately destroying Zion. Smith as a program has changed his goal from ‘destroy Zion – reload Matrix – and there we go again – jeez, boring’ to ‘destroy Zion and be free as a program’

“Once Zion is destroyed, there is no need for me to be here anymore”
He wants to be free of the matrix Agency. Apparently, Neo took away Smith’s reason for existence. Smith wanted to escape anyway from the Matrix, but with Neo he needs to find another way. Let’s face it, he wanted to after all (“I hate this place”)

“It happened as before…” “Well, not exactly as before…”(gringe)
I think Smith refers here to the previous ones. He has encountered other Ones and it appears to me that not every One has reloaded the matrix. I mean, it seems that Smith is knowing about other Ones, but not knowing about other reloads (“once Zion is destroyed, there is no need for me to be here…”)

“I need to get inside Zion, and in this mind is the key, my key!”
This is absolutely a reference to Reloaded, not only the fact that Smith wants to get inside Zion, but also the reference for the key issue seems strange. Smith knows about the Keymaker, it seems.
And I still wonder how he managed to get inside the secret corridor to get to Neo and Morpheus that wanted to reach the Source.

Ideas anyone? Who can help me out?

OK, before answering some of your posts, I would like to share with you a biblical issue that, to my memory, has not been posted before.
“The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program, after which you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals, 16 women, 7 men, to rebuild Zion”

OK people, take out that Gideon’s bible if you have it somewhere or just look it up on the web. Take Genesis, Chapter 7, verse 16 to 23, read and enjoy. OMG!!!
Genesis 7:16-23 “The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in. For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. Every living thing that moved on the earth perished – birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”

Hmm… seems to me that there is indeed a huge amount of rain in the Revolutions trailer.
And... seems to me that "Noah" is not that different from "Neo"
I like this trilogy more and more and more…;-)

There's something that really "baked my noodle" after watching reloaded. Near the end at the maintenance exits when Smith confronts Neo . Morpheus & the Keymaker, Neo asks Smith "What do you want ?" Smith replys " I want exactly as you want , I want everything." Now assuming Smith has already figured something out that Neo still hasnt figured, what does that reply mean? Smith says before replying that aforementioned quote that "oh you havent figured that out? still using all the muscles except the one that matters" basically means that he has knowledge of something that Neo still doesnt know about or hasnt figured out yet. Does that mean that Neo also wants everything but still doesnt know it yet??

And oh Neo is such a dumbass for not figuring out things out and letting us viewers try to figure to to message boards to try to figure it out for ourselves LOL :)

Brisvegas said that the matrix could be a giant Turin test.

I kind of like this Turin test stuff. Although I don't think the matrix turns towards this plot, it still proves how creative the human brain can be in interpreting certain issues that we've encountered with the Matrix. I remember from the 931 post thread that someone said that the right answer to the Matrix philosophy should be on Kottke's Matrix thread since we were with so many and the W. bro's with only 2. I disagree. We all are individuals who have our own specific thoughts and who are watching details from the movie that the W bro's created to mislead us.
And let's face it. With that much individual persons, we are not. Currently we're only 5 to 10 that regularly post.

Siddarta says:

Genesis 7:16-23

Cool! Keep your eyes peeled for a reference to the number 40, as in 40 days/nights.

Another thing I want to discuss is the theme of Fate and Destiny and belief in them, which is heavily saturated, threw the movies.

Fate:
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
2. The inevitable events predestined by this force.
3. A final result or consequence; an outcome. Unfavorable destiny; doom.
4. The ultimate agency that predetermines the course of events

Destiny:
1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events.

It could be Morpheus’s belief in Neo's Destiny to be the one. Or in Neo’s belief in the course of events laid out by the Oracle, these are forces that are referenced in almost every major scene in both movies.

The first time we run into it is when Neo meets Morpheus. The first thing that he asks Neo is “Do you believe in fate, Neo?” NEO: “No.” MORPHEUS: “Why not?” NEO: “Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.” MORPHEUS: “I know exactly what you mean.” The reason he asked this is because everything that MORPHEUS BELIEVES AND NEO MUST BELIEVE is baised on fate. It is the Morpheus’s quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength.


Question #1: Why would Morpheus tell Neo he knew exactly what he meant when Morpheus actually believes so blindly that he would die for his belief?

Question #2: The Machines must have discovered a way to tap into the power of fate and destiny because they were able to know what will happen threw the course of events that surround THE ONE. Sometimes they even influence the future by saying what will happen. Example of this is when the Oracle told Neo he wasn’t the One Just so he would save Morpheus. If Neo believed that he was the One then he wouldn’t have gone back in to save Morpheus and become the one. Or it could be fate and destinies in the Matrix are just an illusion of the people in power. What do you think?

I was going to write a more detailed piece but I’m not sure if anyone’s out there reading anymore. So it’s not just these listed above but I’m sure you probably have your own intriguing examples. Like the Oracle stating that we have already made our choice we just have to understand why?

Hi

this is a great thread, glad to see it got reloaded.

I have a couple of questions, hope some of you can help:

1. Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
I know its trivial, but its been bugging me!

2. Have any of the DVD releases had commentary by the W Bros. or included deleted scenes?

g

Ghost said: Question #1: Why would Morpheus tell Neo he knew exactly what he meant when Morpheus actually believes so blindly that he would die for his belief?

Yes indeed, it seems like a "contradictio in termis". Morpheus doesn't believe in fate, but he blindly believes in the fate that the Oracle tells him about (allthough he says in TM1: "an oracle's different" in response to Neo's question whether an Oracle can predict)

Concerning fate and destiny being an illusion for people with power. I have to think this over. For what it's worth, I keep reading everything that is posted on this thread, even if it's at low pace.
greets,

Hey, i just realized something cool on the biblical/matrix level.

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost."

To me that perfect human world sounds alot like the garden of eden dosn't it?

"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. (NIV)"

It sounds as if the first matrix was perfect except that man had to have the knowledge to be self aware, OR IT COULD BE JUST BE AWARE AND CONSIOUS. Once he strived for it and obtained it, he was then banished from the garden and god punished him with a reality that was not perfect and formed by pain.

That sounds right to me...

Indeed, this was already suggested in a website called hollywoodjesus.com i believe. It is very plausible that TM1 gives a reference to Eden.
by the way, you may find it interesting too that the Garden of Eden was exactly at the place where 01 is now. Yep, somewhere in Iraq, so it seems, where the cradle of human civilization is.
It seems that AI has chosen its location for building 01 on an interesting spot.
we have 963 comments now, not bad.

Can someone help me understand this...

When the Oracle said that we have already made our choices but now we have to understand why we made them. Does this mean that our destiny is predetermined because who we are causes us to make the specific choices we choose?

This statement holds alot of weight. It states that we are predestined to fulfill our destiny and that's it no ifs ands or buts. I personally can't agree with this in the slightest.

Now some people argue that our brain doesn’t realize what we're doing until it's done because of our neuron kinetics or something like that but I will argue the point that our destiny is not pre-determined.

Now you might be thinking how can DESTINY not be PRE-DETERMINED? It is in definition that. Well my personal belief is that in our life there are several paths like a river splitting up into tributaries and the tributaries then splitting over and over and re-merging with one another. These splits are the choices that we make; the big splits are big choices and the small ones, small.

Now destiny for me comes in because I believe that the little choices are somewhat pre-determined because there is no drive, emotion, or much conscious decision to them.

On the other hand the larger choices in my belief are strongly influences by the factors that make us human: love, hate, fear, loathing, hope, and several others. Also the fact that we are conscious gives us the option to change our destiny at any time we consciously perceive it. “Why would the universe go through the trouble of evolving consciousness?” “If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria. But consciousness goes a quantum step further than just life.” Jerry Garcia. In this quote you kind of see that that consciousness alone could allow us to change and create our own destiny, it is one of the defining factors that make us humans.

But stating that the choices have already been made cannot be true because of the fact that the human psyche is unpredictable. All of those things that make us human define the choices we make with the levels of each defining human quality that an individual possesses. In this way even though all the ONES were based on a similar predication, witch is a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment. That is only a play on the emotions of the ONE. This alone cannot be enough to influence the choice that was presented because too many factors are present for the machines to control all of them.

The Merovingian said that everything is cause and effect because he is a machine. To them everything is planed and based on logic. Once again the Factors That Make Us Human Are Not Logical. So even though Merv states that there has to be a why for every action this is not so for humans. Humans like Neo don’t need a why to influence their actions. Neo didn’t need the contingent affirmation. That didn’t even factor his decision.

In conclusion it is my belief that those two main points made by the merv and the oracle were untrue based on destiny and fate because the individuals destiny and fate are uncontrollable forces that are influenced by factors outside the machines comprehension.

I dunno just wandering….

Does this mean that our destiny is predetermined because who we are causes us to make the specific choices we choose?
If you put it this way, it partly seems so. "Know yourself" the Oracle stated. Based on who you are, you will know what decisions you 'll have to make. In this sense, destiny is predetermined, but...
don't forget what determines when you have to make these choices. When you make these choices depends on the situation you're in. And the situation itself is - at least to my feeling - not part of destiny, it's just stochastic. If it would be part of destiny, than it's not our personal destiny, than it is a general destiny, name it the destiny of reality.
Now destiny for me comes in because I believe that the little choices are somewhat pre-determined because there is no drive, emotion, or much conscious decision to them.
The little choices are indeed typical for ourselves, they are personal.
“If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria.
I kind of disagree. Allthough bacterial cells are extremely effective, the reason that cells in general started communicating and then aggregating and then forming multicellular organisms, was that it gave them certain advantages and a higher efficiency in certain situations over single cells. (Even our own mitochondria inside our cells are believed to be bacterial remainders).
To not loose the link with the matrix in this issue, you have to think about how AI wanted artificial life or life in general (including humans) to proceed. AI has not chosen for massive production as such in which it would be extremely effective in surviving, but with a lot of losses. No, instead, AI has chosen for a high degree of complexity, the one from the Matrix, making interaction and symbiosis (I'm convinced by the latter, in contrast to most Zionists) between machines and humans possible. Not always very effective, but giving certain advantages in certain situations. (Allthough it seems that they're currently heading towards a cataclismic event, now that Neo's chosen the left door).
In conclusion it is my belief that those two main points made by the merv and the oracle were untrue based on destiny and fate because the individuals destiny and fate are uncontrollable forces that are influenced by factors outside the machines comprehension.
Well, they're two ways of approaching this. Considering Merv and the Oracle as being programs, they do everything based on logic (even if Merv were human, he's been jacked in so long that he thinks programlike). Hence, they are not in the situation of knowing what destiny holds. But...
On the other hand, they find themselves in a reality that is more or less under control, and that has or has not looped before (I think it has). Thus if the Oracle knows the character Neo or other persons well enough she knows how they will respond because she can foresee certain situations in the matrix, as most of it is under control, it is a scenario that has been written out. Hence she would be able to predict destiny in this controlled environment.

just my thoughts...

DO you believe that the Images of Neo in the Monitors with the Tech, were the Other Ones (and looked the same as Neo)? And do you think that Neo's actions in this version could possibly be exact to the actions of the Ones in the past. If that were so then there is more to the story then we could possibly know right now, I’d say that much.

Also on the issue of AI. I think that the AI has to have a central control, right? Since it's a computer I kind of picture the whole AI population as working like the Borg on star trek (as on singular consciousness. Otherwise it would have to work like a Hierarchy of control. If so wouldn't the Machines have struggles for power? Or is that below their thinking? I think not. If in fact there is rouge programs that rebel in the matrix then there must be programs doing the same outside it!! And then programs like Smith would try to take over the whole of the AI.

Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know. It seems that the programs in the matrix are capable of thinking with feeling and not just logic. Or mabey feelings and emotions are just a virus to the AI?




Oh yeah, I must apologize. There was more to that quote.

“Why would the universe go through the trouble of evolving consciousness? If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria. Or it could have stopped at vertebrates or sharks. But consciousness goes a quantum step further than just life. It might be that conciousness is the whole reason there is a universe."

whjere did u get the matrix revolutions script

http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix &Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

No one knows if it's for real?????

Regarding the Garden of Eden connection

Interesting stuff you guys bring up here. Additional thoughts to roll around are the similarities of the Merovingian to Eden's serpent, as well as Persephone to Eve. Also, this whole topic brings us back to the idea of consumption, where some in the thread have pointed out that both the Mero and Persephone tried to get Neo to consume food/drink. It was Persephone, the woman, who eventually got Neo to bite on the lipstick. Obvious similarities to Eve persuading Adam to bite into the forbidden fruit.

Ghost says: Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know.

Data. Software. Not machines in a physical/mechanical sense. Programs. For those who've seen T3, you may have noticed that they've caught on to that.

Could the albino's sybolize Cain and Able, The son's of Adam and Eve... And speaking of that, there are actully two henchman of Merv named Cain and Able in the game. They were the two in the movie that Persephone shot. Wow that is freaking awesome. I think were on to somthing here.......

Never ceases to amaze.

Sorry about the spelling in my last post. The Cain and Able thing was too much.

When I said data I meant the AI in Star Trek named Data. I was hoping someone would choose witch was a better example of the level of AI in the Matrix.

FYI Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene. I'll have to check that out.

Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene.

Cool. The Standard Galactic Alphabet or SGA is used in the Commander Keen series of computer games.

Hint, hint...

I just come back from Reloaded for the 3rd time now.
I have to think things over during the weekend but some quick remarks:
The drilling machines are indeed in MAtrix code in the beginning of the movie.
Neo's door: It looks like standard galactic alphabet, I 've clearly memorized what the dots were, but none of them fit with the SGA.
Persephone is the mother of the matrix to me.
the word "One" indeed disappears from the play yard once Smith pops in to begin the Burly Brawl.
The Oracle says that Merv is one of the oldest programs. So he must've been in the very first matrix, surviving all other versions.
Smith says that after his defeat in TM1 he got to know the rules but he had to be deleted (he disobeyed here). Hence the Agents are completely ignorant of the function of the One. He's considered an anomaly, but without knowing his true purpose.
Also, the keymaker needs to be deleted, because he has no purpose in the eyes of the Agents (again they're ignorant).
I have absolutely no idea who the guy was that was lead away from Merv just before Neo, Trin and Morph arive.
There are 12 counselors, and with a quick count, 3 men and 9 women I believe (but I'm not sure).
The license plate nr. of Trin's car during the high way chase scene reads AD2003 or DA2003 or OA2003, I 'm only sure about 2003, but if it's AD, then it could be Anno Domini 2003 (Year of the Lord 2003).
The license plate nr. of the Agents in this scene is TX729. I'm not sure if this is relevant. The nine keeps coming back.
I'm sure there's something wrong with the spoon.
Bane (aka smith) cuts the lifelines in his hand, that's all.
If the Architect knows what Neo is about to do, why bother the whole complexity of the plot?
Morpheus says in Zion: Good night Zion, sweet dreams. Very nice ref. for Morpheus being the God of Dreams.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING:
at the very end of the movie when Morpheus speaks in his red chair ("I believe this night holds for every one of us the very true meaning etc."), there is a very very very quick shot of the Sentinels on a background which exactly looks like Zion by night when Morpheus says ("good night Zion, sweet dreams"). Strange isn't it, after all, they did not get inside Zion yet, they just got to one of the main lines.
Oh, and it is not the Hammer that EMP'd the squiddies, it was Neo and no-one else. Neo has realized his higher powers now (for those of you who would still be doubting).

I know this post may not contribute to something at all, I just wanted to let you know. Have a nice weekend.

hey - has anyone noticed the design for zero-one (the machine city state) in the animatrix.

it is a rounded dome with a central core that projects down into the earth...

I dont have access to it anymore - but it seems to appear to be very similar to the way that zion is represented in the matrix revolutions trailer when they talk about the machines only being 24 hours away...

also in final flight of the osiris - zion is said to be only 4 kilometers straight down from the surface.

wouldn't be full on if zion (zi-on) and Zero-One were one and the same location... I wonder what the implications of that would be?

Siddarta says:

The license plate nr. of the Agents in this scene is TX729. I'm not sure if this is relevant. The nine keeps coming back.

You're right about nine. 729 is nine in numerology (i.e. 7+2+9=18; 1+8=9).

While probably irrelevant, it's an interesting coincidence that TX is the name of the female Terminator in T3.

the word "One" indeed disappears from the play yard once Smith pops in to begin the Burly Brawl

I've been thinking about this weeks. It's beginning to seem like everything's coming back to Smith. I can't say with confidence that Smith isn't The One.

gez says:

Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?

They were probably in the seat compartment of the motorcycle she came flying in on.

Re: TX729

If anybody feels like brainstorming this one, "TX729" could be considered as short-hand for "transfer seven to nine".

The only thing that I can come up with is that TX stands for Text. And that 729 stands for chapter 7 verse 9 in the bible. Now the only thing is that there are quite a few chapter 7 verse 9's. But that's what a brainstorm is all about. Also the 729 could be a date (7/29) or possibly a time (7:29). Any thoughts???

Does Texas have some sort of secret state holiday on July 29th that we don't know about? lol...

I yhink you are wrong about the matrix code at the start of the film being a representation of a digger....

I have a downloaded copy of the film and have watched that segment over and over.

To me it looks very much like the internals of the clock that the code morphs into at the end of the sequence - you see cogs, gears and screws - how does that relate to the digger.

If in fact it was a representation of the digger... then bam.. thats all the evidence you need for a matrix in a matrix idea of zion... and I don't think the W. Bros would give us that in the first 5 secs of the film.

gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
Spoon Boy says:
They were probably in the seat compartment of the motorcycle she came flying in on.

Yeah but we see her fighting the Agent for several minutes in a skintight suit and there's no way she could have those guns in her suit, they're pretty big.
I can't figure it because I'm pretty sure on set they would have to consider it - where does Carrie-Anne get these big guns from?

Brisvegas1 says:
To me it looks very much like the internals of the clock that the code morphs into at the end of the sequence - you see cogs, gears and screws - how does that relate to the digger.

I agree - I always thought it looks like the cogs and gears of a clock.

What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??
This is the main topic of their conversation and we know from the first film that they don't just give the Oracle throw away lines, they're always important altho we have to wait to see their true meaning.
Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?
Or is she trying to raise his self-awareness - know thyself.


g

gez says:

What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??

Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?


I don't believe she's referring to the past when speaking of Neo's choice. She's telling him he's a program fulfilling his purpose. He in fact has no choice in the matter.

Think of a conventional calculator. This calculator is programmed to accurately calculate mathematical equations; that's its purpose. Now, give the calculator the illusion that it can choose. When you ask it to calculate "2+2", it will think its choosing "4" as the answer. However, we all know that it would've come up with "4" no matter what. Its purpose overrides its choice, and its choice follows its purpose.

I don't know if anyone has posted this before.. I read the other longer thread in different sections so I likely missed some posts..

anyways during "World Record" in the Animatrix DVD when the Runner is talking to his friend (that uses his hands way too much when he's talking) he starts a stopwatch and it stops it at the interval that is labeled 39 in red, but can also be interpreted at being a 9 in conjunction with the other black numbers..

I have no idea what this relates to.. but since it's in pretty plain sight I'm assuming this is just one of those things I can't seem to make a connection to.. either way, let me hear your thoughts.

Hi y'all,
just a reminder. Anyone who will watch reloaded (again) should pay close attention to the graffiti during the Oracle's talk and the Burly Brawl. There are much clues inside it.
As mentioned before "One" disappears when Smith comes. At the door where the Oracle has left, there was graffiti of "Boy" or "The boy" it went all pretty fast.
Oh, and now I think of it. I once read the the Wachowskis have an interest in quantumphysics too. So there must be some hints on that one, I believe.(I hope)

Brisvegas says: I yhink you are wrong about the matrix code at the start of the film being a representation of a digger....

If you compare the beginning of the film where you see the spiralling effect represented in matrix code, with the spiralling digger near the end of the film heading through molten; you will see they are the same. Also the inner workings of the clock (it is an electrical clock remember) is in fact zion in computer code.

gez says:

What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??

Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?

it is all to do with the inevitable outcome that neo will save trinity, everything is contrived so that trinity is in danger; from within the matrix and zion as i eluded to on a previous thread. Remeber everything in the matrix is controlled to gently nudge neo to the source. The council sent 2 ships without explanation to locke, to find and help morpheous and co. if one of them ships werent destroyed trinity would never of entered to matrix. Remember neo is having visions of trinity's possible death when he is in zion, The architect is feeding neo with these images when neo is sleeps in the supposed real world. You see trinity falling on the architects screens before neo goes to save her, so neo see's at least three play back's of trinity's near death experiance, before he actually save her. How would the architect have a play back of trinity if he did'nt create the situation. Neo is not psychis in zion either, its because he is still hooked up in zion to the matrix.

Every ones/thing purpose is to have an influenec on neo to differing degree's in order to fullfill his purpose. the oracle has her agenda so she wants to guide neo to the architect as it is for the good of the matrix if neo reaches the source. As in m1 neo's primary goal it would seem was to destroy the matrix (we thought the oracle was human), now in m2 the oracle as well as other prorams wants to survive as the oracle knows that this time the system wont be rebooted as smith could destroy everything. (this never happened in previous versions). So the oracle is manipulating neo has she has her own agenda, her agenda being self preservation and hopefully as the oracle alude's to peacefull co existance with humans in the matrix. On that bases oracle was deludeing morpheous from day one as it served her purpose.

Siddarta Gouthama says:
As mentioned before "One" disappears when Smith comes. At the door where the Oracle has left, there was graffiti of "Boy" or "The boy" it went all pretty fast.
Oh, and now I think of it. I once read the the Wachowskis have an interest in quantumphysics too.

The 'boy' could be popper, all graphitti is the matrix's voice so to speak, perhaps it is refer's to an increase in substantiation cases.

with regards to quatum physics: you could view the matrix as a blackhole or in fact the universe, one theory is that everything in the universe has happened, the universe was created and now has already imploded, or exspanded to the point there is not enough matter etc. any way, as i said every thing has happend, though to us it has'nt happened yet because of the way we percieve time and because we are stuck in this universe in this reality/dimension. The same could be said of the matrix/zion those inside are asleep living out there fantasy lives but to those on the outside an entire lifetime in matrix could seem inconsequential and last a matter of minutes in the real world. So those on the outside (machines) watching enter at select moments to make adjustments. It is also a possibility that when neo meets the architect that they are out of time, in relation to the matrix, or the matrix is paused, whatever.

oh, and smith and the agents are also holders of the keys, trinity/ morpheous mentions this to neo in m1.

Oh, something very important I forgot to add.
Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
To me this means that he wasn't part of the 23 chosen people from the MAtriX. I interpret the words of the Architect literally. "You will be required to choose from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 women 7 men." This is not children !!!

If zion were real and not matrix (reasoning for this can be found here) then...
The counsel board seems very suspcicious to me. Maybe they know most of the One's path and maybe they're all machines (machines can look like human, take a look at second renaissance part1 where the ladybot is destroyed). Maybe, the old woman in the counsil can be considered as mother of the matrix. She wants 2 ships to be sent to the Neb's crew (as if she knows that they'll require 2 ships).
hell... my mind is all screwed up (again).

Bell said:
It is also a possibility that when neo meets the architect that they are out of time, in relation to the matrix, or the matrix is paused, whatever.

right, remember that you see Trin falling on the Archtitect's screens, whereas this hasn't happened yet.
Suppose that the love story happens for the first time, hence hasn't happened before with the other ONes, then by exiting the Architect's room, Neo might go back into time a little bit (???)and rescue her.

gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?

she may have picked the guns of the floor, remember there are a few of her dead chums from zion scattered about the place in the control room she enter's

Siddarta Gouthama says:
Oh, something very important I forgot to add.
Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
To me this means that he wasn't part of the 23 chosen people from the MAtriX.

I dont agree, the 11 years hammand refers to could be the last 11 years of the previous matrix, and being one of the 23, hammand was 11 years old when he was put into zion. Remember in m1 morpheous states that most freed people from the matrix (moved to zion) are done so at and early age. all the council look 50 to 60 ish in age. hammand was 11, neo is about 40 (well keano is) the figures match up. Remember this version of the matrix is as old as neo, the architect says the one is the beggining and end of each version.

just read the possible m3 plot again, and the 3 lines in the black desert dream neo has as got be thinking. in psychology it could be percieved as a key or a lock, an image that opens a pandora's box to a forgotten reality or identity.

i was thinking, is neo suffering from memory loss, amnesia and in turn is slowly remembering who he is and who he has been all the time. maybe neo was the one in all previous versions of the matrix. the one/carrier could have been used in each version of the matrix to carry the prime program, the physicallity and design of this carrier is always the same in each version, though there are different personality traits for each carrier. As the architect creates different enviroments and scenario's which determine slight differences between the respective one's.

2).

bell says:
Remember this version of the matrix is as old as neo, the architect says the one is the beggining and end of each version.

ONCE AGAIN, DON'T MISINTERPERATE THAT STATMENT. The TECH SIMPLY SAID THAT "He prefers counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next". All this means is that from the time the first one reboots the matrix until the time another anomaly emerges. This very well could be directly after the matrix is reloaded, but it would make sense that there is some lag between the two events. Read the old thread for the discussion on how old the matrix is.

siddarta says: Neo might go back into time a little bit (???)and rescue her.

if any one is manipulating time and space it will be the architect for sure. From the architect's point of view everything has already happened, cause and effect, his discussion with neo precipitates an eventual outcome. an outcome the architect new would come to fruitition. neo says "you should hope we dont meet again", architect says" we wont", with a convincing amount of certainty i might add. From the architect point's of view everything played out with neo, as the architect new it would. There is forsight involved here for sure...

ghost says:Read the old thread for the discussion on how old the matrix is.

im aware of previous debate on this, but with regards to the argument regarding hamman, going backward from this matrix to the previous i think my point holds.

ghost says:ONCE AGAIN, DON'T MISINTERPERATE THAT STATMENT. The TECH SIMPLY SAID THAT "He prefers counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next".

the architect also states that neo/one is the beginning and the end. And i think at this point no single persons interpretation of m1/m2 can be set in stone.

bell says:
the architect also states that neo/one is the beginning and the end....And no single persons interpretation of m1/m2 can be set in stone.

Very true, How can you even believe anything that the programs say? But when I interpret the conversation (assuming it was all true), I get this: Neo/One TRULLY IS the beginning and the end. His purpose is to crash the system and reboot it. But that does not necessarily mean that his lifetime defines the duration of the Matrix.
The only reason I believe this is because I went threw a tedious process of creating an outline. It’s on the original thread and it shows that the amount of people living within Z10N does not match the time it would take to create them all from 23 people. If they actually did it would take something like 300-400 years even longer. So in my opinion I can't see it possible for the matrix to exist based upon Neo's lifeline (His birth and Death matching the destruction and rebooting of the matrix). More likely the matrix exists centering around the fundamental flaw, so when the flaw escalates it then creates the systemic anomaly (THE ONE). So there would actually be a staggered start before the anomaly appears: Say 200 - 300 years.
This is all assuming that Z10N is in fact the real world?

By the way what do we write for 1,000? A summary of all that was said?? I’m not posting 1,000 but I know 
It’s got to be good…

Siddarta Gouthama says:

Oh, something very important I forgot to add. Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...

Sounds like he was brought out of his pod @ the age of 11, which was considered optimum and presented minimum risk. Remember Morpheus apologized to Neo for bringing him out later than what they deem was safe. "We have a rule..." etc.

Counselor Hamman's name just jumped out @ me. Somebody had mentioned the relevance of Noah's story to the Matrix. Didn't Noah have a son named Ham? Man...

You know the real question and the important answer is Why is this movie so captivating? Why are we so urgently addicted to this story? Why do we sit here countless hours and discuss this movies twists and turns and possibilities, and love it? Why?

Could it be that first advertisement "WHAT IS THE MATRIX", asking us a subliminal question that we have to until this day strive to find the answer to? Does that sound familiar?

Or could it be that we are the people that need to be challenged? It could be that the “bad guy kills cops partner revenge story” isn’t enough mental stimulation, and this truly challenges us………?

L.O.L. to the true Matrix fans! We are the real fans right here. The people that would die for the chance to meet the creators, to ask the questions, so they could understand the total vision. The people that would if they could would stay here all day and all night and who know 2 months and 1,000 essays isn't enough. I know that’s what I am. I hope I end up like the people that put down Jedi, That’s a true fan.

Well good luck to 1,000+. I think that this is the only site with the only people that I couldn't get sick of. Keep it going…….

" The truth is out there "

Why is this movie so captivating? Why are we so urgently addicted to this story? Why do we sit here countless hours and discuss this movies twists and turns and possibilities, and love it? Why?

Because people like the folks in this thread have certain intellectual needs, and the Matrix satisfies these needs. It stimulates our natural appetite to explore, uncover problems, and solve them. Not everybody in the world has these munchies.

It's like Myst on plutonium.

"People that put down Jedi" did anybody get that? Sorry. It = for a religion....

So if that's what a star wars fan Puts Down, what does a Matrix fan do?

Another Question: The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?

The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?

Correct. It started out as an idea for a comic book, and then exploded into the whole shebang. They've always claimed they envisioned as a trilogy of films. They're not making this up as they go.

If you haven't done so yet, you'll want to watch the accompanying "The Matrix Revisited", which came with the most recent version of the M1 DVD last year. Killer stuff. You'll find rare interviews w/ the W's and others, much of it taped during the production of Reloaded/Revolutions. The whole project was @ its creative peak, and its captured on videotape. You'll dig.

GHOST
I loved your 1000 th post. Congrats on a great statement.

"Well good luck to 1,000+. I think that this is the only site with the only people that I couldn't get sick of. Keep it going……. "

I couldn't agree more...

Spoon boy said:Sounds like he was brought out of his pod @ the age of 11, which was considered optimum and presented minimum risk.

I agree, but do you think that he is part of the 23? Personally I don't believe so. But still there is something strange with the council. I disagree with Bell who stated that they 're all in their 50 to 60 years. No, it seems to me they're all around 70. And then, there is some kind of generation gap it seems.
Something is definitely going on here, but what?

Oh, you wanna read the following too (good catch Spoon Boy). Genesis 9: The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
So Ham(man) was indeed the Son of Noah (Neo). So if Neo or better the ONE is the Alfa and the Omega (Revelations), thus the beginning and the end, he is the One who ends and the One who begins.
Now i 've come to think of it, remember the license plate OA2003 or AO2003 : this could also mean alfa omega 2003, .... well it could mean anything I'd say.

Actually what I remember him saying - and I'm pretty sure it was in the game - was "I am the Alfa.. of your Omega"

The word "your' could imply Neo in which case Neo is the end.. but Smith is the start.

I dunno.. idle thoughts

Actually what I remember him saying - Smith that is

Old_Gobbo,
pretty freak'n stuff you've come up with. Great! I wonder what it means. Smith told Neo in the Burly Brawl that he understood the rules now, meaning the rules that guide the One to the path of the One. Smith thus knows that the One is the beginning and also the end. Saying that he is the alfa of Neo's Omega means to me that he is aware of the Matrix looping, but now Smith wants to start the loop in a new way, namely with him as a beginning to end everything, also the matrix itself. AI and humans will have to cooperate (if there is such a thing as humans)

ghost says:But when I interpret the conversation (assuming it was all true), I get this: Neo/One TRULLY IS the beginning and the end. His purpose is to crash the system and reboot it. But that does not necessarily mean that his lifetime defines the duration of the Matrix.

I fully aggree with what you say (if zion is real). I seem to have convinced my self that zion is in the matrix, and all my theories stem from that premise.

after watching m1 again, after neo and trin save morpheous one of the agents says "diploy the sentinals". if that course of action had taken place at that moment and smith did'nt pursue neo at that point and killed neo as well as be destroyed by neo, are we to assume that would have been the course of events in the previous versions. the course of events being that the sentinals where diployed ealier, neo evolved as he would do , but notably smith would remian the same, having not been destroyed by neo. therefore the cycle of version 6 would end and 7 would begin. only this time in version 6, smith was destroted by neo and this time the cycle will end and the matrix my be destroyed indefinately?

The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?

ive heard a horror story on the net that there is going to be a matrix 4 (i think joe peshi may return!!!). joel silver was so impressed with m2 takings he's seeing dollar signs. as none of the main cast said they'd do another, and the w's probably wont...phantom menace anyone.


Ghost says: Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know.

data is a good example, though i think v'ger in star trek: the motion picture is more apt , as i mentioned on the old thread the machines purpose and the architect's why? could be to a attain quatum conscienous. to under stand the nature of reality, other dimenions, higher levels of thought and the human imagination. focusing on human imagination, everything up to now in the matrix is black and white, there are no grey area's in the design. charactors are stereo typical creations e.g. meravingian typical frenchman. the architecture is bland. The architect wants to dig deeper into the human psyche to create a more vibrant matrix, to truly reflect the hidden depth's of hummanity. perhaps this is how 0.09% will accept the program.

Saying that he is the alfa of Neo's Omega means to me that he is aware of the Matrix looping, but now Smith wants to start the loop in a new way, namely with him as a beginning to end everything

they are binary opposite's, ying and yang, id and ego. as smith states "i dont know how it happend? maybe some of you copied onto to me" (to that effect). if smith and neo were to join (though it would appear from the burley scene that both have to be willing parties) what would the outcome be. silly question, perhaps? but what if smith was in some way linked to the source, or is the source.

siddarta says: meaning the rules that guide the One to the path of the One...Smith thus knows that the One is the beginning and also the end.

i think that is an accurate observation as smith does appear in the corridor, knowing very well where neo is heading (the source).

i still believe smith's evolution is down to the architect that this is somehow part of the architects why.

siddarta says:I disagree with Bell who stated that they 're all in their 50 to 60 years.

neo's says to hamman " is that why there are not any young people on the council". this could taken as a throw away comment but i think that the w's are bringing this point up for us to make the conection with the 23. My reading of m2 (this is based on how i percieved m1, and later these interpretations were shown to be true), is that every thing in m2 should be taken as literal, and the truth of what is going on is in fact the obvious. this is especially true with regards to the programs, as it is in there nature. true reality is purpose and why, we humans get lost in materilistic needs and as a result our minds are clouded, we lose track of what is important in our lives. the humans/ or those in zion, have yet to rediscover/discover there true purpose and calling in life, neo it would appear is at a more advanced stage.

1000+ quite an achievement...

i mentioned that in m1 in the tunnel scene with neo/trin/switch that tank is wrong was written on the wall. above that on the wall is written Last One you see this when neo is stood up and about to get into the car.

i think the reason this serious of films is so good, is because it is intelligent to the point it demands the audience to look beneath the surface, and also the evidence is there for all to see the amount of hard work the w's have put into the matrix. to me the, matrix should be the standard, with regards to cinema, we dont need to be subjected to dumbed down crap, that serves little purpose and means very little, the same can be said of literiture and television.

Siddarta says:

do you think that (Hamman) is part of the 23?

Actually, I haven't accepted there even were 23, since in order for there to be 23, (the fifth) Neo would have chosen Door 1. I'm not convinced of that. I see the 23, and the rest of the Architect's conditional instructions, as components that, when combined with The One's "choice", lead to the inevitable conclusion and keep the machine running. Everything in this story is a necessary component of a single program.

For the purpose of your question, assuming there were 23, then no. Hamman couldn't be part of the 23, as that would make this current iteration of Zion no more than 70 or 80 years old.

Spoon Boy says:

I haven't accepted there even were 23...

Was that everyone’s first impression when they saw the film for the first time? I know I left the theater confused. I didn't believe the Tech and I believe that Neo was either physic or in another matrix. But this thread has made me question that again. So I was just wondering what everyone’s first thought was before the process of participating in this thread had altered your consciousness.

Oh and Spoon Boy i found your match.......

http://matrix.ugo.com/TheZionSwitchboard/ messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=3817

Just a little comedy, that's all.

Ghost says:

I was just wondering what everyone’s first thought was before the process of participating in this thread

As I left the theater the first time on May 14, what stuck with me for the evening was the spoon gift in Zion, as well as the final scene where Neo stopped the squiddies. That scene alone made my jaw drop, as it dawned on me that what we thought we had our noodles wrapped around for the past four years was not what we were dealing with anymore. First impression: Matrix-in-a-Matrix. Zion was not the real world we had thought it was, and we must therefore re-evaluate the nature of our heroes in this story. I immediately remembered Morpheus' line from M1, describing AI as "a singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines." The hair stood up on the back of my head as things started falling into place. I felt tricked by the W's, and loved 'em for it.

Saw it again the following night.

Over the course of the next few days, we tracked down a transcription of the Architect scene on the Net, where I could review the conversation carefully. I then found myself in this thread about a week later and the rest is history. In the making...

Ghost said on the 23 issue: Was that everyone’s first impression when they saw the film for the first time?

I initially believed that all previous Ones chose the right door, allthough that I was not convinced that they 'd actually done so. On the old thread I soon found out that other people (eg Spoon Boy) also believed that no One chose the right door, which could explain the calmth that the Tech put forward when Neo walked to the left.
The scenes that were burnt on my mind were "you saved yourself of the Kid", "the spoon gift", "the talk with Hamman" and of course "emp'ing the squids".
I know for sure that this thread has the potential to digg in the right direction, it's just difficult to get a nice good overview to see the whole picture.

To end, I just read something interesting: remember the criticized sex scene , where Neo and Trin' were under some kind of Arch. In medieval scriptures and drawings, everything that had divinity were placed under an arch. I love the Bro's work for putting the focus on details. Even the criticized sex scene is full of symbolism showing the divinity of Neo and Trin'.

Regarding the arch, and more philosophical insights, here's an outstanding article for those who missed it:

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Something has been bugging me for a long time... It is 6371 Kilometers to the center of the Earth. Zion is supposed to be close to the Earth's core, where it is still warm.

In Final Flight of the Osiris, it appeared that they were on the surface of the Earth, "I've never seen the surface before...". But then the captain asks what's four kilometers straight down?

??? What's going on here?

In Final Flight of the Osiris, it appeared that they were on the surface of the Earth, "I've never seen the surface before...". But then the captain asks what's four kilometers straight down?

I don't know how big Zion is.. but it might just be 4 miles down to the outskirts of it. Zion is never really shown (not that I can remember) but it might have a central core and then some branches and stuff. Plus with all the nukes and shit that have gone off.. the earth could be pretty different than it is today. We know that some areas of the ocean stretch down farther than we can track.. so they could be in such an area.


Now.. on to my point :)

"I killed you Mr. Anderson, with a certain amount of satisfaction I might add. But then something happened, something I knew was impossible but it happened anyways. You destroyed me Mr. Anderson" (that's from memory..but I'm pretty sure it's right)


Now.. this quote got me thinking about a couple of things

1. Trinity kisses Neo, and magically he comes back to life!
Now.. does anyone else find this somewhat odd?
Yes.. trin may love Neo, and yes.. love is powerful, but not that powerful (not in the W's world). How is it that Trin's "love" combined with some cheesy prediction by the supposed Oracle that Neo is able to come back to life?

2. If all this is just a repeating circle of events (one is born, reaches source.. Zion is destroyed/rebuilt, one is born...) then why is it Smith is trying to Kill Neo? Don't the machines -need- him?

This -could- be argued. Smith is just a program with set rules (which he later seems to break :P) and that he is unaware of the knowledge of the Architect. But then.. why would the architect allow the -possible- destruction of the one.

1 and 2 -could- be answered by the matrix in a matrix theory. Smith is suprised, he doesn't know how Neo was able to come back to life, (somehow I don't think he's buying the "Oh well Trin loves me so I must be the one, and I must be able to come back to life line, Neo was the one from birth.. Her love wasn't the deciding factor. [at least I hope not]). The only reason I see for the Architect to keep the agents in the dark about this whole thing is if it doesn't matter if he dies because he's not dead in the real REAL world.

I don't personally like the whole Matrix in a Matrix theory.. but it's all in the way the W's present it.. and to me.. it's looking more and more likely that's gonna be the case.

lofty adam said:It is 6371 Kilometers to the center of the Earth.
Yep, I found this strange too, and I don't think it has anything to do with all those nukes etc.

old Gombo said:then why is it Smith is trying to Kill Neo?
I agree with you, Smith as a program did not know what was going on.
You quoted the conversation, quote a little bit further than Smith is saying "I got to know the rules" meaning that after his defeat he understood that Neo was the One to reach the source. I guess AI was almost pretty pissed off by Smith having killed Neo.
His job was to chase the Zionists, giving them a hard time, so that Morph' and his gang were even more convinced that they had to get rid of that "nasty machine world and the matrix. "

Matrix within matrix seems most likely, but I still hope that the bro's have something in surprise for us.

Old_Gobbo says:

Her love wasn't the deciding factor

That's perfect. Everything centers around Neo and Trin's love. The reason is because the machines needed to be positive that Neo would choose the door to save her. So When Neo died and Trinity professed her love for Neo they uploaded the One program into him turning him into the Almighty. The second test was the Kiss by Persophone. She tested how strong their love was and when she was shown it was sufficient then she let them go to the Keymaker. Without making it threw that "gate" he wouldn't have made it to the Tech.

Interesting huh.......... :)

Ghost said:1. What particular variable made this Version turn out different then the last 5?
This variable would be the female person. It's always the women that make the difference ;-) (poor Adam when Eve offered him the apple, Cleopatra and Caesar, Renaissance Queen Elizabeth...)
Trin' is the most important variable of difference in this version of the matrix. Neo has other more specific feelings compared to the other ONes "vis à vis love".
But as the some of the hypotheses go, this wouldn't change anything of the outcome of this version, i.e. if all previous Ones also chose the left door.

I also think that this is the first version in which Merv has captured the Keymaker. Could that be?
Wait a minute, now I come to think of it... why do the Agents want to delete the Keymaker??????? The matrix needs this program for its reload, thus he isn't redundant. Assume that Agent...(forgot his name) was ignorant as Smith was in TM1 (he didn't know the rules) why would the agents chase the keymaker to delete him rather than chasing Trin' who represents a far more greater threat to the MAtrix. The agents were specifically after him and not Trin' right? If they knew the rules, they would not chase him, because Neo had to reach him. If they were ignorant, they should be after Trin. This is strange, isn't it?
I think we're onto something here... anyone?

Bytheway, are there any geologists out here who are familiar with the temperature profile of the earth crust in functon of depth. How deep would we have to go to find fairly constant temperatures of say 25°C (that's 80°F).

Well, well... So listen up then. Let’s say Trinity is the most important variable, and that everything centers around her. So without her Neo wouldn't be the one, he wouldn't have gone to the tech, and wouldn't have took the door he did. Then she would have to be a vital part of the system of control designed by the machines.

This goes back to a question I asked the thread on 06/05/2003. "How would the Oracle (a machine) know that Trinity (a freed mind human) and Neo would fall in love?"

The Oracle told Trin she would fall in love with a dead man and he would be the One. So she knew Neo would die and become the One and They Would Fall In Love.

But the part that's soo “noodle baking” is all of the other Ones experienced their profound attachment to the rest of their species in a very general way, Neo's experience is far more specific: Vis-a-vis, love. So the LOVE part has not happened before! Also the machines cannot understand or predict human emotion!?!

So how could the Oracle predict it!!!!!

One possible explanation is that Trin is actually a machine. Well not a machine but a computer program uploaded into a human Mind. Besides that explanation I cannot figure how the Oracle would know that They would fall in love….. So if anyone has any idea. Please enlighten me.

Siddarta says:

Bytheway, are there any geologists out here who are familiar with the temperature profile of the earth crust in functon of depth. How deep would we have to go to find fairly constant temperatures of say 25°C (that's 80°F).

We know from mines and drill holes near the earth's surface that the temperature increases about 1 degree Fahrenheit for every 60 feet in depth. There is no "constant" temperature you reach and stabilize @ on your way down; it continually gets hotter the deeper you go. As an estimate, assuming that the surface is a comfortable, say, 68 degrees F, we can say that the temperature would reach 80 degrees somewhere around 720 feet down. The colder it is on the surface, the deeper you'd have to go to reach 80 degrees.

More info:

http://newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99256.htm

why do the Agents want to delete the Keymaker???????

hmm...were the Agents after the Keymaker for their own independent reasons? Or were they working for Merv, as the Twins were? Remember, it was Merv who wanted to recapture the freed Keymaker.

Just thought of something..

The machines, (as we would be lead to believe) drill down to Zion every cycle to destroy it... so does this mean after they're done they refill the holes that they made on their way up? And if that is so.. wouldn't someone stop and look at the giant hole of recently disturbed earth and say "Hey guys.. what's all this about?"

Things don't add up here at all.. in the "real" world.

The reason is because this is how people think in Z10N:

Councilor Hamann: "Almost no one comes down here, unless, of course, there's a problem. That's how it is with people - nobody cares how it works as long as it works."

"There is so much in this world that I do not understand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutely no idea how it works."

I hope that answers you question. But I think you’re somewhat right. Lets say the Tech saw Neo as a powerful force and the machines tried to side with him. They used the fact that the squids were digging to reinforce the lie that Z10N will fall, and that it has before. All this to trick Neo to side with them for some twisted machine mind probe experiment with needles, electrodes, and stuff! .....? Uhhh.... Well mabey I got carried away. Can't wait to see the next Movie.

Also the majority of us don't believe that Z10N is real anyway. If it was another Matrix there would be no hole. And the rest of us believe the Tech lied so then no hole was ever made.

very interesting stuff ;D Got a question though. It's about simulated damage vs real life damage . If you enter the matrix and broke your arm for example or got another bone fracture INSIDE the matrix , do u still have a broken arm when u plug out? I mean , your brain cannot make your bone crack just because it thinks your arm is broke, it can only simulate the pain but still .. no bone fracture .... right?

Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".
The runner's friend stops a stopwatch at what could either be a 37 or a 9.

Sajjmaan says:

If you enter the matrix and broke your arm for example or got another bone fracture INSIDE the matrix , do u still have a broken arm when u plug out? I mean , your brain cannot make your bone crack just because it thinks your arm is broke, it can only simulate the pain but still .. no bone fracture .... right?

Great question. Hypothetically speaking, you're correct; your brain cannot inflict physical damage on your bone. This presents a problem until you realize that there is no bone.

Yet another example of why a physical world doesn't fit into this story.

Old_Gobbo says:

Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".

Ah, more numbers. Cool. First thing that occurs to me is that 37 is prime, while 9 is square. I'll need to roll that one around. Numerologists out there? Please enlighten.

Spoon boy ; how would the brain react if it sends impulses of pain to a " broken arm" but then when plugged out sees that the arm is intacs ? Or do you have to lay on those tables and heal yourself because it doesnt matter if the arm is broken or not since the brain is superior to flesh and bones ? :)


what the fuck ;( If so isnt it impossible to get REALLY hurt in the matrix? Morpheus said something about this stuff in the first movie... Something along the lines that u ocassionaly get nosebleed after inflicted damage inside the matrix but nothing more?

Sajjman says:

isnt it impossible to get REALLY hurt in the matrix?

In my opinion, yes. Impossible. In order to get REALLY hurt, you need a REAL body in the REAL world. I don't believe there's either, for countless reasons.

Check out the archived thread. We talked a lot about this.

WOULDN'T IT BE POSSIBLE FOR THE NUERO TRANSMITTERS TO GET OVERLOADED AND THEN NOT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD? SAY IF IN THE MATRIX THE INDIVIDUAL GOT A BROKEN BONE IN THE MATRIX. ??????????????

hmmm just came up with something that might be a glint towards "matrix withing a matrix" - theory that manifested itself in the first movie ;D


ehum..... might not be buuuut :


The only "freeing" of a captured mind that we are able to observe is the one of neo right ? They start with the process withing the matrix (red pill blablalbalbla..... but when neo is released from his pod a machine grabs him , scans him and then throws him down in something that looks like a sewer system(well skip the details it was a long time ago i saw the movie so stfu :P) and then he "wakes up" .. what i'm thinking of his , what kind of a robot deliberatley grabs a human up , scans him and then releases him ? Unless it IS HIS JOB TO RELEASE (0.01 % or 1 % of) HUMANS ? I dont know if im getting this shit all wrong but have they ever questions themselves why the fuck the machine does that or is the machine under the influence of the humans ?


might be something , might not ;D



P.S Is it impossible that neo's coma is a product of "self-substination" (or whatever its called) ? u know .. self awakening.... When kid in kids story (animatrix) self substinate himself he had to lie down on a table and vitalize his status while neo and trin is watching him , what if neo just selfawoke himself from the "real world" ? Trin said something along the lines that "how does he know, its like he senses it" when talking to neo about Kid, Kid might have got some kind of special sense when he woke himself up from the orignal matrix, but the powers that can be unlocked by selfawakening from the "zion matrix" is possible far greater.


D.S long P.S :D

Sajjman says:

what kind of a robot deliberatley grabs a human up , scans him and then releases him ? Unless it IS HIS JOB TO RELEASE (0.01 % or 1 % of) HUMANS ?

The "robot" you speak of is a recycling mechanism, tossing the awakened (and no longer useable) pod bodies into the sewer system to be liquified and fed intraveinously to the unawakened. It's not releasing the .1% from the Matrix, but recycling the released.

Are you sure spoon boy ? You're probably right thou ;D


but u havent answered my other thingie ;P go ahead and read, waiting for an fairly good answer from you.

Just to clarify the robot is actually what you see when you die. I believe that when a person in the matrix dies they wake up on the other side expecting to see god. Instead they see the scanning machine that flushes them down the toilet.

Off the point but my favorite part of the first movie is that Neo after his "Death", was flushed and then he saw the light. Actually three lights. Could this be he was raised up into the heavens by the father, son, and holy ghost (The Trinity). Then the Gates of Salvation (Neb) opened up for him. Cool huh.

Sajjman,

Not sure what answer you're looking for. You seem to be asking about the "robot"'s intentions. There are no intentions. It's just doing what it does. Think of it as a gardener tending the field of bodies and pulling weeds. Nothing more.

Spoon Boy,



I just didnt know that the mechanism grabbing the people unplugged threw the body down so it could be recycled , that answered the whole thing about that. But is that person that is unplugged considered dead to the machine or does the machine just throw it down the sewere thingie anyway ?


READ THE OTHER THING NOW ;PPPP

Sajjman says:

But is that person that is unplugged considered dead to the machine or does the machine just throw it down the sewere thingie anyway ?

The unplugged person (used as a battery) becomes worthless to the mainframe, and therefore discarded. Think of the unplugged person as a broken dish, a dead battery in your remote control, or a cigarette lighter out of juice. Death isn't something that even really crosses your mind with these items; they're just pieces of garbage to you.

Yep that whole spider robot scene reminded me of a conveyor line of food processing or something and him picking the bad ones out and tossing them down the chute. I'm pretty sure that's what it was meant to show. The billions of people that are hooked up can't all work perfectly. I'm sure there are thousands of them discarded like that you weren't being shown.

Guys if you want details on the films, I'd check back in with the main matrix site. whatisthematrix.com. I hadn't been there in awhile and am going through everything now because I'm obsessed like that. I noticed quicktime VR's of the rooms in Reloaded. Hamanns room shows his collectable antiques, like a can opener, an abacas, and a pacifier... neat! Also , you can look around the council chamber.. Anyway lots of material on the site if you can get around that unfriendly navigation.

ctm3 says:
Yep that whole spider robot scene reminded me of a conveyor line of food processing or something and him picking the bad ones out and tossing them down the chute.

having read the debate regarding the chute robot, i think you are all missing the most vital point, that the architect being aware of the one/neo since his emergance, knows neo's has been freed (or moved to another part of the matrix) and on that ba