Continuation of The Matrix Reloaded
This thread is a continuation of the uber-thread about the Matrix Reloaded. My original post is here, but I’ve archived the thread (containing 931 comments) here.
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Reader comments
BellJul 03, 2003 at 12:41PM
1000 comments no probs 'come on people we are not out yet'
'1000 is within reach'
in about 100 years you'll have over 32,200
Thx for hashing that out. Any estimate on how many years it'd take to reach a population of 250k?
regarding how long zion exists for in each cycle and how long it would take for a population growth of 250k.Those figures are a complete fabrication. The architect states that each version of the matrix lasts the same amount of time as it takes from the emergence of one integral annomally to the next. Assuming neo is around 35 years old, there is your answer( 35 years 250k people born; not a chance), only those in zion believe that there are 250k people(the architect mentions no figures), as they are led to believe this. Maybe only a few are human in zion and the rest are programs, and perhaps many of them that are freed from the matrix are also programs; they are allowed to be freed in order to keep up the pretence that the zionists are actually achieving some thing and that they are gaining ground in the apparently none existant war with the machines. EVERY THING IS BY DESIGN, SYSTEMS OF CONTROL EXIST THROUGHT THE MATRIX AND ZION, IN ORDER FOR THE WHY? TO BE FULLFILLED, THE ARCHITECTS WHY IS MOST VALID.
BellJul 03, 2003 at 12:45PM
cheers jason for letting this thread continue it has been a good forum for debate, and given many the opportunity to exchange ideas with intelligent and like minded individuals.
BellJul 03, 2003 at 1:03PM
Sidarta said:
Did anyone notice that the oracle said:"I said don't worry, I'll get one of my kids to fix it"
My kids... is this meant as just one of the Potential children that are in the waiting room...? Why my kids and not one of the kids? ...
We can assume that they are potential one's, though i dispute this as surely the oracle like the architect his aware of who the one is from his/her emergence. The architect certainly does, as i mentioned on the other thread; the architect has been monitoring neo's progress constantly (which is illustrated when neo reaches the architect on the screens).
so are they potential programs? are they potential infilitrators of zion? (spoon boy/zen boy) maybe im grasping but perhaps the potentials and 'The Kid' have an important role in m3. have they attained higher awareness through design, as this hightend awareness may serve the matrix or maybe helps the humans control the matrix. Perhaps the matrix is a better option for humans and there must be a large amount of people with hightened awareness to control the matrix and exercise more freedom within the system!
GhostJul 03, 2003 at 1:44PM
ahhhhhhhh The thread is gone. Nooooooooo. :-)
Well at least you still kept it on file for the public and kept it going. Thanks for letting the Best thread ever continue it's life.
Has anyone thought about the possibility that the W's might bring the movie to the level where Neo is not Digitally performing supernatural abilities but actually receives superhuman powers in the real world?
Just here me out.
Now most people believe that Neo stopped the Squiddy with his superhuman digital powers because Z10N is actually another Matrix. But what if Neo is the "ONE" because he has mental capabilities above and beyond the normal human.
If you look at the quick learning and advancement of Neo's powers and abilities within the Matrix you obviously get the impression that he possesses some kind of heightened ability from everyone else. Morpheus believed this from the beginning and chose Neo because he knew Neo has this ability and would use it to become the ONE.
After the movie I seriously doubted what the Architect had told Neo. Basically that there were other ones and that Z10N has been destroyed several times before and will be destroyed if he doesn’t rebuild it. So on and so forth. So I started to think………..
What if the reason the architect and all the computer programs (Oracle and Keymaker) are trying to find the one and make him take the right door to “who knows what”, just to control the humans that have developed some special (real world) powers threw the course of evolution. Kind of like the theory behind the X-Men; that threw human evolution MANKIND HAS DEVELOPED SOME KIND OF SUPERHUMAN ABILITIES. Now of course these individuals that develop this ability are in the matrix and not in the professors school.
Now Neo was released from the matrix where he starts to realize how to harness these powers and strengthen them (MORPHEUS: “If you can free your mind, the body will follow.” Then he goes back into the matrix and is forced to realize these power even more. By the time he reaches the Architech “the process had altered his consciousness” so much that he then obtains his true potential.
Now the machines of course don’t want anyone to realize their true potential so they create The Oracle to watch over everyone with abilities like the spoon boy. When those abilities increase to the level of the “ONE” that individual gets sent to the Architect to be assimilated by taking the right door. Now I don’t mean assimilated in a good term I mean DEAD.
The Computers know that at this point he is in tune with using his mental superpowers to the peak, and that if he leaves he will realize that he is telekinetic and telepathic. SO they try to give him a contingent affirmation that is meant to create a profound attachment to the rest his species so that he will make their choice. But Neo decides to take the door to the left and not be fooled by the architect. Then he uses his physic powers when he stops the squiddy, and that is the first true enlightenment in the movies thus far.
The W’s must have thought about this because the comparison is made in the Oracles living room where we see what today would be known as physic abilities. Girls (witches) and Buddhist monk children doing things that people in society today are thought to be able to do when enlightened.
Now wouldn’t that be quite the plot twist if in the third movie, Z10N is the real world and certain humans or just Neo learn how to use their minds to control their surroundings with physic abilities. And then we could realize that is why the machines imprisoned the human race: to stop us from realizing our true evolutionary potential.
BellJul 03, 2003 at 1:45PM
check this site out regarding revolutions: maybe bull, though its sounds pretty good to me, maybe some truth in some of what was said.
http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix
&Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
GhostJul 03, 2003 at 2:00PM
Bell says: The architect states that each version of the matrix lasts the same amount of time as it takes from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the next.
The Architect says that he prefers counting how old the matrix is from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is would be the sixth version.
So what he is saying is that in his way of counting the Matrix is Six Years Old.
Bell says: have they attained higher awareness through design, as this heightened awareness may serve the matrix or maybe helps the humans control the matrix.
Exactly my point. Check out the post above.
BellJul 03, 2003 at 2:12PM
Ghost, I think that you could be right to a point regarding the architect, i think there are untruths in what he says, as he wants to manipulate neo. Manipulation usualy invovles a great deal of lying. read the web site highlighted i think it might open a few more avenues of thought.
http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix
&Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
BellJul 03, 2003 at 2:28PM
well i found this on the net, as did the person before me it would seem. Beware this could be true...
***********Spoiler Start***************
Okay, Neo's in Matrix "limbo" - somehow his mind got "jacked in" to a train
stop outside the Matrix - the wild eyed guy in the Rev. trailer is the train
man, controlled by the Merovingian. The Oracle tells Trin and Morph this and
they threaten Merv (you're willing to die for this man?) and go and save Neo
(who in the meantime has met some new characters and had a vision of three
lines in the black dessert). Back in the real world now. Niobe gives Neo and
Trinity the logos ship after the Hammer powers it up so they can go to the
machine city (01) and try and save Zion. Meanwhile Bane (Smith) has
awakened, killed the nurse and snuck into the Logos. The Hammer heads back
to Zion to try and stop the sentinels with its emp as a last ditch effort,
and soon realize Bane has killed, escaped and must be on the Logos - but
it's too late to turn back and save Trin and Neo. Aboard the logos, Bane
blinds Neo with an electrical conduit during a fight before Neo kills him
(just after realizing he's smith inside) Trinity is beat up but okay to fly
the ship, with Neo's "second sight" - he can somehow sense the machines
life-force and "sees" them now. The Hammer tries to sneak back to Zion but
the sentinels hear them and chase them all the way home. Meanwhile, Zion is
getting the **** kicked out of it by all the sentinels. The crippled Hammer
crashes into Zion and blows it's EMP knocking out the remaining diggers and
sentinels. Meanwhile the logos is on the surface, flying over/by the fetus
fields and power plant, following three power lines to the city (like in his
vision). In Zion, they are trying to restore power while evacuating to the
deep tunnels and temple cave from Reloaded. More sentinels arrive in the
defenseless Zion and jump start a digger to continue into the bowels of Zion
and finish of the rest of it's people. Neo and Trinity have now crash landed
into the machine city after fending off bigger, meaner sentinels and an
armada of huge ships shooting shrimp bombs like from Reloaded. Trinity dies
from the crash and Neo goes on to confront a huge godlike machine that he
makes a deal with to confront smith and save the matrix (and the Ai's ?)
from being taken over (smith has altered the matrix and cloned himself into
everyone). Back in Zion the sentinels stop their attack at the last minute
and wait. The ai's jack Neo in and he fights smith, smith wins (neo pretends
to lose or fights long enough to prove he tried) and takes him over, but the
new clone freaks out, (the machine city ai has a direct link to smith now)
explodes and all the smiths explode or something... Neo dies as a result and
is hauled off by the AI's to who knows where. Everyone rejoices and the
matrix get's reloaded with a truce between man and machine.
"what about morpheus, the council and previous ones?" - morpheus navigates
the hammer for niobe (the best driver- I think ghost must be manning the
guns) and faces off with the sentinels at the opening to the zion temple
(story boards of this was spoiled a couple years ago), he may take part in a
fight to save neo, but that's about it - (he lives). i don't remember the
council being mentioned or anything about previous ones
"What about the kid" - he plays an important role durring the battle by
manning a fallen mech and shooting a chain on the zion dock door at the last
second, allowing it to open so the hammer can enter zion and use its emp. -
he lives
-no cypher, no matrix within a matrix, no phone booth scene from matrix one.
-seraph(puts up a good fight),oracle,important child (mentioned in
game)...all taken over by smith
I left out a lot of details obviously (fights,take-overs,etc.) but that's
the main jist of it.
hope you don't regret reading this!
////END SPOILER////
The stop of train station hold water, and kind of eradicates my matrix within a matrix theory (so im going to have to mull this over for some time).
GhostJul 03, 2003 at 2:40PM
ubb.empireonline.co.uk: Everyone rejoices and the
Matrix gets reloaded with a truce between man and machine.
Is that supposed to be some sort of happy ending? Not that I expect the ending to be happy but if the matrix gets reloaded I don't think that everyone will be rejoicing. THE ENTIRE PLOT OF THE MOVIE IS TO BRING THE MATRIX DOWN. If it doesn’t come down then the W's better be clever. And they are
You know that’s another thing. Everyone says “It’s going to suck if there’s a matrix in a matrix.” But that all depends on how the W’s lay it out. There are so many variables that could make that scenario work.
But as far as that post goes... I give it a 6.5 in creativity, and if I could judge the truth behind it, it would get a 2.5 until I see proof.
DanJul 03, 2003 at 3:36PM
Ghost said:
Now the machines of course don’t want anyone to realize their true potential so they create The Oracle to watch over everyone with abilities like the spoon boy. When those abilities increase to the level of the “ONE” that individual gets sent to the Architect to be assimilated by taking the right door. Now I don’t mean assimilated in a good term I mean DEAD.
Um, if that was all there was to it, why wouldn't the Architect just kill him?
GhostJul 03, 2003 at 4:13PM
No one else could, why would he be able to? Could be Neo was too strong:)
Or to continue the general gist of the thread... It could be that the Architect wanted Neo to go to the source for a dissemination of his mental abilities (code). This would be because the machines wanted to understand and reproduce how a mind (or spirit) could have abilities (telekinesis and telepathy) that defied the natural laws that the machines were originally programmed to comprehend.
You have to omit; it is an awesome theory. Although it’s a little shaky it would still be a great ending to a great story.
What'da ya think?
Siddarta GouthamaJul 04, 2003 at 5:29AM
I have read this so called revolutions plot and it doesn't fly for me. It's very nice but I think the real ending of the trilogy will be different. I mean, how could some guy just get this from the internet. Or the Wachowski's have serious security problems and they screwed up the script, or everything is made up.
Anyways, I would like to ask the following.
Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real, or he should be watching Lois & Clark shows in the Matrix code all the time right? OR...
Zion is MAtrix too,...? or... Idunno'
bellJul 04, 2003 at 8:51AM
after mulling over that revolution plot, i dont go along with the whole premise (though its the best one so far), though i think the half way station between the matrix and zion is quite intersting, you would assume there is some kind of link in order to filter out virus's etc, from one system to another. I think who ever wrote the plot premise watched the trailer and was just creative with it, If it is close to the truth i will be dissappointed!
siddarta says: Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real, or he should be watching Lois & Clark shows in the Matrix code all the time right? OR...
Zion is MAtrix too,...? or... Idunno'
Ive often wondered about that comment, it could be seen as a referentiail cinematic comment, though i look at the matrix with the highest of scrutiny, if he was plugged to the matrix there is a possibility that he may have read a comic, but he is home grown and i doubt zion has DC comics lying about lying about.
in m1 when neo is in the tunnel, and just about to get into the car with switch and trin, written on the wall (graffiti) is TANK IS WRONG. i have no idea what it refers to?anybody
bellJul 04, 2003 at 9:15AM
after watching m2 again, i think persophone is the mother, her motive for allowing them to have the keymaker can not be souly down to playing games with her hubby. (i know this topic has come up before) her kiss with neo is under the direction of the architect, it is a means of testing the bond between neo and trinity. The strength of there love and trust is tested when neo kisses persophone, Knowing the strength of their bond, this allow's the architect to play his ace; is ace being neo's obvious loyalty to trinity, neo will do anything to save her. so he shows trin in danger knowing very well which door neo is going to take, which brings us back to the architect's WHY? knowing the WHY is knowing everything one suspects.
siddarta, perhaps link was browsing through the zion archive, and saw Superman the movie!
bellJul 04, 2003 at 9:31AM
when neo meets the oracle at the playground, she mentions her concern for the future, she is eluding to the survival of both programs and humans in the matrix, presumebly getting on. smith is the destructive part of neo that threatens to destroy the matrix. Though smith says that things are different this time, suggesting that he never multiplied as he does in previous matrix's. if the other matrix's did exist how then were they threatend, where did the threat come from (is it because the 'one' went through the left door earlier not allowing smith to become as powerfull in earlier versions of the matrix?)
the 2 slashes on bains hand when he cuts himself, are they significant marking's of any kind?
bellJul 04, 2003 at 9:50AM
using the hades/merovingian theory, maybe the entire matrix is the underworld (basement so to speak) part of a larger construct. Neo is being promoted very quickly through higher levels, each level seems to be real, when neo realises its not something else is thrown at him. so what gonna be thrown at him when he realises zion is fake? a desert with 3 lines perhaps?
Siddarta GouthamaJul 04, 2003 at 11:37AM
Bell said: if the other matrix's did exist how then were they threatend, where did the threat come from
the real threat is still the inefficiency that the matrix is working on. cfr. "did you know that the first matrix was originally designed to be a perfect world? It was a disaster..."
So actually, AI is still figuring out how to run the matrix in a better way for human beings to accept it. AI as such is just too perfect to make something imperfect for humans.
Hence, AI needs the different Ones to changes the code of the matrix and make it work better. If the matrix doesn't get reloaded from time to time, at the end everyone will die, or better the human-machine symbiosis will die.
Because I don't think the machines need the humans for their energy, if they have fusion. And also I think they're smart enough to solve the problem of the scorced sky. It's just symbiosis.
As for the hand cutting part, zion beeing fake etc... see the old threat.
Spoon BoyJul 04, 2003 at 12:17PM
You're all still here! How nice to hit the blog and not have to wait for 40 seconds for the thing to load. Thanks to our host for taking care of that. This new revolution should take us through the end of August before needing another reload.
siddarta says:
Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real
Ha! You caught 'em! To be fair, I'd say that it wouldn't be inconceivable for a knowledgeable guy like Link to be familiar with Superman. Although he's never jacked into the Matrix himself, he does have the skills necessary to observe from the outside with the Neb's monitoring tools. My only question: was he was thinking about George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, or Dean Cain?
As I typed that, a certain similarity to Keanu Reeves jumped out @ me. Go figure.
bell says:
in m1 when neo is in the tunnel, and just about to get into the car with switch and trin, written on the wall (graffiti) is TANK IS WRONG. i have no idea what it refers to?anybody
Nice catch, worthy of analysis. There's a particular line from M1 that comes to mind:
TANK: Me and my brother Dozer, we are 100 percent pure, old-fashioned, home-grown human. Born free. Right here in the real world.
So wrong. Btw, how'd you like my artwork? ;)
Brisvegas1Jul 04, 2003 at 12:20PM
okay folks - well haven't posted in a while, but I was watching the animatrix on DVD for the first time tonight (man is it ever pretty) and I had a thought.
In the episode "A detective story" trinity says to the sam spade style detective..."there is a difference betweena trap and test"
This got me thinking - what if the matrix is just a giant turing test.
I don't know if it is a test for machine intelligence or for human intelligence - but what if it isn't a trap - what if it is a test.
whoever rejects the matrix - passes.
but I don't think it is an intelligence test - or even an artificial intelligence test. Afer all - the test subjects are being asked to ignore the reality of their experience - to forget the rules of the world.
perhaps it is an emotion test - even a "consciousness test"
who knows - maybe it is an alien intelligences way of trying to figure out if humans are conscious self aware life....
in the end - the nature of the choices - left door or right, red pill or blue - binary choices strikes me as being very interesting.
what does it mean - for an entity to reject everything it knows about reality, to ignore all of it's day to day experiences - and chose the red pill - choose to find out the "truth".
is that what seperates life from simple chemistry and physics...
hmmm...
Man I hope the W. Bros have something absolutely brain smashingly, noodle bakingly good for us in revolutions.
Brisvegas1Jul 04, 2003 at 12:32PM
ps - it really is worth watching the animatrix again and again... each time I watch it I catch more and more that appears to be directly related to the movies.
We all know the obvious ones -
kids story vs. the spoon delivery kid
final flight of the osiris vs. the osiris data drop
but what about the others -
The haunted house in Beyound where the rules of the matrix are bent/ broken => the concept of the matrix degrading in revolutions.
another example of self substantiation in "world record".
the "tests" / choice in both "the program" and "a detective story".
the test / choice in matriculated.
the idea in matriculated that machines don't know the difference between a "simulated reality" and a real one...
so much that can be profitably added to the matrix cannon.
i am so looking forward to the super special limited editon directors cut version with the audio commentary that explains all of this...
Spoon BoyJul 04, 2003 at 1:06PM
Brisvegas says:
In the episode "A detective story" trinity says to the sam spade style detective..."there is a difference betweena trap and test"
In first few scenes of M1, we learn that Neo is simply the next target on the Neb's long List Of Candidate Ones. It makes sense that these "candidates" would undergo a screening test of sorts. The "tests", given to Neo and the detectives by Trinity and her cohorts, seem to be aimed @ their curiosities, testing the degree of how far they'll go to find the answers. Why? Because the One would go all the way. From the Nebbers' point of view, such a test would serve as a practical way to eliminate non-Ones.
I'm not entirely sure if the detective in "A Detective Story" was a pre-Neo target that the Nebbers suspected could be the One. However, it makes sense that this is precisely what was happening with his hunt for Trinity: While the detective thought he was finding her (and Morpheus), it was she (and Morpheus) who found him. This is very similar to Neo's search for Morpheus in M1. Also note that @ least two of the three detectives (targets?) before him failed their own respective tests: One commited suicide, the other went insane. The third disappeared. It can be argued that the third left the Matrix successfully. Hmm... Bane?
Regarding "World Record":
I just tripped on how this phrase contains two contextual meanings:
1. "World Record", as in "the highest accomplishment for this track event ever recorded in the world", as portrayed in the Animatrix.
2. "World Record", as in "the known recorded history of the world."
Siddarta GouthamaJul 05, 2003 at 6:11AM
Spoon Boy and Brisvegas and all others, glad to see you're back!
I was thinking of the following:
A little thought experiment:
“Leave me with him… now!”
The Agents seem to not immediately understand, but obey Smith.
Smith is doing something odd in their eyes.
“… I hate this place, this Zoo, this reality or whatever you want to call it… It’s the smell!...”
Smith hates the Matrix, he doesn’t want to be in the Matrix forever. Because all he gets to do is finding those idiots from Zion with the aim of finding the One and ultimately destroying Zion. Smith as a program has changed his goal from ‘destroy Zion – reload Matrix – and there we go again – jeez, boring’ to ‘destroy Zion and be free as a program’
“Once Zion is destroyed, there is no need for me to be here anymore”
He wants to be free of the matrix Agency. Apparently, Neo took away Smith’s reason for existence. Smith wanted to escape anyway from the Matrix, but with Neo he needs to find another way. Let’s face it, he wanted to after all (“I hate this place”)
“It happened as before…” “Well, not exactly as before…”(gringe)
I think Smith refers here to the previous ones. He has encountered other Ones and it appears to me that not every One has reloaded the matrix. I mean, it seems that Smith is knowing about other Ones, but not knowing about other reloads (“once Zion is destroyed, there is no need for me to be here…”)
“I need to get inside Zion, and in this mind is the key, my key!”
This is absolutely a reference to Reloaded, not only the fact that Smith wants to get inside Zion, but also the reference for the key issue seems strange. Smith knows about the Keymaker, it seems.
And I still wonder how he managed to get inside the secret corridor to get to Neo and Morpheus that wanted to reach the Source.
Ideas anyone? Who can help me out?
Siddarta GouthamaJul 05, 2003 at 6:46AM
OK, before answering some of your posts, I would like to share with you a biblical issue that, to my memory, has not been posted before.
“The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program, after which you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals, 16 women, 7 men, to rebuild Zion”
OK people, take out that Gideon’s bible if you have it somewhere or just look it up on the web. Take Genesis, Chapter 7, verse 16 to 23, read and enjoy. OMG!!!
Genesis 7:16-23 “The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in. For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. Every living thing that moved on the earth perished – birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”
Hmm… seems to me that there is indeed a huge amount of rain in the Revolutions trailer.
And... seems to me that "Noah" is not that different from "Neo"
I like this trilogy more and more and more…;-)
kieJul 06, 2003 at 10:24PM
There's something that really "baked my noodle" after watching reloaded. Near the end at the maintenance exits when Smith confronts Neo . Morpheus & the Keymaker, Neo asks Smith "What do you want ?" Smith replys " I want exactly as you want , I want everything." Now assuming Smith has already figured something out that Neo still hasnt figured, what does that reply mean? Smith says before replying that aforementioned quote that "oh you havent figured that out? still using all the muscles except the one that matters" basically means that he has knowledge of something that Neo still doesnt know about or hasnt figured out yet. Does that mean that Neo also wants everything but still doesnt know it yet??
kieJul 06, 2003 at 11:18PM
And oh Neo is such a dumbass for not figuring out things out and letting us viewers try to figure to to message boards to try to figure it out for ourselves LOL :)
Siddarta GouthamaJul 08, 2003 at 3:13AM
Brisvegas said that the matrix could be a giant Turin test.
I kind of like this Turin test stuff. Although I don't think the matrix turns towards this plot, it still proves how creative the human brain can be in interpreting certain issues that we've encountered with the Matrix. I remember from the 931 post thread that someone said that the right answer to the Matrix philosophy should be on Kottke's Matrix thread since we were with so many and the W. bro's with only 2. I disagree. We all are individuals who have our own specific thoughts and who are watching details from the movie that the W bro's created to mislead us.
And let's face it. With that much individual persons, we are not. Currently we're only 5 to 10 that regularly post.
Spoon BoyJul 08, 2003 at 12:15PM
Siddarta says:
Genesis 7:16-23
Cool! Keep your eyes peeled for a reference to the number 40, as in 40 days/nights.
GhostJul 08, 2003 at 6:03PM
Another thing I want to discuss is the theme of Fate and Destiny and belief in them, which is heavily saturated, threw the movies.
Fate:
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
2. The inevitable events predestined by this force.
3. A final result or consequence; an outcome. Unfavorable destiny; doom.
4. The ultimate agency that predetermines the course of events
Destiny:
1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events.
It could be Morpheus’s belief in Neo's Destiny to be the one. Or in Neo’s belief in the course of events laid out by the Oracle, these are forces that are referenced in almost every major scene in both movies.
The first time we run into it is when Neo meets Morpheus. The first thing that he asks Neo is “Do you believe in fate, Neo?” NEO: “No.” MORPHEUS: “Why not?” NEO: “Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.” MORPHEUS: “I know exactly what you mean.” The reason he asked this is because everything that MORPHEUS BELIEVES AND NEO MUST BELIEVE is baised on fate. It is the Morpheus’s quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength.
Question #1: Why would Morpheus tell Neo he knew exactly what he meant when Morpheus actually believes so blindly that he would die for his belief?
Question #2: The Machines must have discovered a way to tap into the power of fate and destiny because they were able to know what will happen threw the course of events that surround THE ONE. Sometimes they even influence the future by saying what will happen. Example of this is when the Oracle told Neo he wasn’t the One Just so he would save Morpheus. If Neo believed that he was the One then he wouldn’t have gone back in to save Morpheus and become the one. Or it could be fate and destinies in the Matrix are just an illusion of the people in power. What do you think?
I was going to write a more detailed piece but I’m not sure if anyone’s out there reading anymore. So it’s not just these listed above but I’m sure you probably have your own intriguing examples. Like the Oracle stating that we have already made our choice we just have to understand why?
gezJul 08, 2003 at 8:36PM
Hi
this is a great thread, glad to see it got reloaded.
I have a couple of questions, hope some of you can help:
1. Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
I know its trivial, but its been bugging me!
2. Have any of the DVD releases had commentary by the W Bros. or included deleted scenes?
g
Siddarta GouthamaJul 09, 2003 at 3:31AM
Ghost said: Question #1: Why would Morpheus tell Neo he knew exactly what he meant when Morpheus actually believes so blindly that he would die for his belief?
Yes indeed, it seems like a "contradictio in termis". Morpheus doesn't believe in fate, but he blindly believes in the fate that the Oracle tells him about (allthough he says in TM1: "an oracle's different" in response to Neo's question whether an Oracle can predict)
Concerning fate and destiny being an illusion for people with power. I have to think this over. For what it's worth, I keep reading everything that is posted on this thread, even if it's at low pace.
greets,
GhostJul 09, 2003 at 8:19AM
Hey, i just realized something cool on the biblical/matrix level.
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost."
To me that perfect human world sounds alot like the garden of eden dosn't it?
"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. (NIV)"
It sounds as if the first matrix was perfect except that man had to have the knowledge to be self aware, OR IT COULD BE JUST BE AWARE AND CONSIOUS. Once he strived for it and obtained it, he was then banished from the garden and god punished him with a reality that was not perfect and formed by pain.
That sounds right to me...
Siddarta GouthamaJul 09, 2003 at 8:34AM
Indeed, this was already suggested in a website called hollywoodjesus.com i believe. It is very plausible that TM1 gives a reference to Eden.
by the way, you may find it interesting too that the Garden of Eden was exactly at the place where 01 is now. Yep, somewhere in Iraq, so it seems, where the cradle of human civilization is.
It seems that AI has chosen its location for building 01 on an interesting spot.
we have 963 comments now, not bad.
GhostJul 09, 2003 at 10:51AM
Can someone help me understand this...
When the Oracle said that we have already made our choices but now we have to understand why we made them. Does this mean that our destiny is predetermined because who we are causes us to make the specific choices we choose?
This statement holds alot of weight. It states that we are predestined to fulfill our destiny and that's it no ifs ands or buts. I personally can't agree with this in the slightest.
Now some people argue that our brain doesn’t realize what we're doing until it's done because of our neuron kinetics or something like that but I will argue the point that our destiny is not pre-determined.
Now you might be thinking how can DESTINY not be PRE-DETERMINED? It is in definition that. Well my personal belief is that in our life there are several paths like a river splitting up into tributaries and the tributaries then splitting over and over and re-merging with one another. These splits are the choices that we make; the big splits are big choices and the small ones, small.
Now destiny for me comes in because I believe that the little choices are somewhat pre-determined because there is no drive, emotion, or much conscious decision to them.
On the other hand the larger choices in my belief are strongly influences by the factors that make us human: love, hate, fear, loathing, hope, and several others. Also the fact that we are conscious gives us the option to change our destiny at any time we consciously perceive it. “Why would the universe go through the trouble of evolving consciousness?” “If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria. But consciousness goes a quantum step further than just life.” Jerry Garcia. In this quote you kind of see that that consciousness alone could allow us to change and create our own destiny, it is one of the defining factors that make us humans.
But stating that the choices have already been made cannot be true because of the fact that the human psyche is unpredictable. All of those things that make us human define the choices we make with the levels of each defining human quality that an individual possesses. In this way even though all the ONES were based on a similar predication, witch is a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment. That is only a play on the emotions of the ONE. This alone cannot be enough to influence the choice that was presented because too many factors are present for the machines to control all of them.
The Merovingian said that everything is cause and effect because he is a machine. To them everything is planed and based on logic. Once again the Factors That Make Us Human Are Not Logical. So even though Merv states that there has to be a why for every action this is not so for humans. Humans like Neo don’t need a why to influence their actions. Neo didn’t need the contingent affirmation. That didn’t even factor his decision.
In conclusion it is my belief that those two main points made by the merv and the oracle were untrue based on destiny and fate because the individuals destiny and fate are uncontrollable forces that are influenced by factors outside the machines comprehension.
I dunno just wandering….
Siddarta GouthamaJul 10, 2003 at 3:50AM
Does this mean that our destiny is predetermined because who we are causes us to make the specific choices we choose?
If you put it this way, it partly seems so. "Know yourself" the Oracle stated. Based on who you are, you will know what decisions you 'll have to make. In this sense, destiny is predetermined, but...
don't forget what determines when you have to make these choices. When you make these choices depends on the situation you're in. And the situation itself is - at least to my feeling - not part of destiny, it's just stochastic. If it would be part of destiny, than it's not our personal destiny, than it is a general destiny, name it the destiny of reality.
Now destiny for me comes in because I believe that the little choices are somewhat pre-determined because there is no drive, emotion, or much conscious decision to them.
The little choices are indeed typical for ourselves, they are personal.
“If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria.
I kind of disagree. Allthough bacterial cells are extremely effective, the reason that cells in general started communicating and then aggregating and then forming multicellular organisms, was that it gave them certain advantages and a higher efficiency in certain situations over single cells. (Even our own mitochondria inside our cells are believed to be bacterial remainders).
To not loose the link with the matrix in this issue, you have to think about how AI wanted artificial life or life in general (including humans) to proceed. AI has not chosen for massive production as such in which it would be extremely effective in surviving, but with a lot of losses. No, instead, AI has chosen for a high degree of complexity, the one from the Matrix, making interaction and symbiosis (I'm convinced by the latter, in contrast to most Zionists) between machines and humans possible. Not always very effective, but giving certain advantages in certain situations. (Allthough it seems that they're currently heading towards a cataclismic event, now that Neo's chosen the left door).
In conclusion it is my belief that those two main points made by the merv and the oracle were untrue based on destiny and fate because the individuals destiny and fate are uncontrollable forces that are influenced by factors outside the machines comprehension.
Well, they're two ways of approaching this. Considering Merv and the Oracle as being programs, they do everything based on logic (even if Merv were human, he's been jacked in so long that he thinks programlike). Hence, they are not in the situation of knowing what destiny holds. But...
On the other hand, they find themselves in a reality that is more or less under control, and that has or has not looped before (I think it has). Thus if the Oracle knows the character Neo or other persons well enough she knows how they will respond because she can foresee certain situations in the matrix, as most of it is under control, it is a scenario that has been written out. Hence she would be able to predict destiny in this controlled environment.
just my thoughts...
GhostJul 10, 2003 at 10:32AM
DO you believe that the Images of Neo in the Monitors with the Tech, were the Other Ones (and looked the same as Neo)? And do you think that Neo's actions in this version could possibly be exact to the actions of the Ones in the past. If that were so then there is more to the story then we could possibly know right now, I’d say that much.
Also on the issue of AI. I think that the AI has to have a central control, right? Since it's a computer I kind of picture the whole AI population as working like the Borg on star trek (as on singular consciousness. Otherwise it would have to work like a Hierarchy of control. If so wouldn't the Machines have struggles for power? Or is that below their thinking? I think not. If in fact there is rouge programs that rebel in the matrix then there must be programs doing the same outside it!! And then programs like Smith would try to take over the whole of the AI.
Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know. It seems that the programs in the matrix are capable of thinking with feeling and not just logic. Or mabey feelings and emotions are just a virus to the AI?
Oh yeah, I must apologize. There was more to that quote.
“Why would the universe go through the trouble of evolving consciousness? If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria. Or it could have stopped at vertebrates or sharks. But consciousness goes a quantum step further than just life. It might be that conciousness is the whole reason there is a universe."
GhostJul 10, 2003 at 10:38AM
Where's Spoon Boy????
TOMMYJul 10, 2003 at 10:50AM
whjere did u get the matrix revolutions script
ghostJul 10, 2003 at 12:02PM
http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix &Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
No one knows if it's for real?????
Spoon BoyJul 10, 2003 at 1:43PM
Regarding the Garden of Eden connection
Interesting stuff you guys bring up here. Additional thoughts to roll around are the similarities of the Merovingian to Eden's serpent, as well as Persephone to Eve. Also, this whole topic brings us back to the idea of consumption, where some in the thread have pointed out that both the Mero and Persephone tried to get Neo to consume food/drink. It was Persephone, the woman, who eventually got Neo to bite on the lipstick. Obvious similarities to Eve persuading Adam to bite into the forbidden fruit.
Ghost says: Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know.
Data. Software. Not machines in a physical/mechanical sense. Programs. For those who've seen T3, you may have noticed that they've caught on to that.
GhostJul 10, 2003 at 2:25PM
Could the albino's sybolize Cain and Able, The son's of Adam and Eve... And speaking of that, there are actully two henchman of Merv named Cain and Able in the game. They were the two in the movie that Persephone shot. Wow that is freaking awesome. I think were on to somthing here.......
Never ceases to amaze.
GhostJul 10, 2003 at 2:34PM
Sorry about the spelling in my last post. The Cain and Able thing was too much.
When I said data I meant the AI in Star Trek named Data. I was hoping someone would choose witch was a better example of the level of AI in the Matrix.
ctm3Jul 10, 2003 at 4:31PM
FYI Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene. I'll have to check that out.
Spoon BoyJul 10, 2003 at 5:21PM
Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene.
Cool. The Standard Galactic Alphabet or SGA is used in the Commander Keen series of computer games.
Hint, hint...
Siddarta GouthamaJul 11, 2003 at 11:19AM
I just come back from Reloaded for the 3rd time now.
I have to think things over during the weekend but some quick remarks:
The drilling machines are indeed in MAtrix code in the beginning of the movie.
Neo's door: It looks like standard galactic alphabet, I 've clearly memorized what the dots were, but none of them fit with the SGA.
Persephone is the mother of the matrix to me.
the word "One" indeed disappears from the play yard once Smith pops in to begin the Burly Brawl.
The Oracle says that Merv is one of the oldest programs. So he must've been in the very first matrix, surviving all other versions.
Smith says that after his defeat in TM1 he got to know the rules but he had to be deleted (he disobeyed here). Hence the Agents are completely ignorant of the function of the One. He's considered an anomaly, but without knowing his true purpose.
Also, the keymaker needs to be deleted, because he has no purpose in the eyes of the Agents (again they're ignorant).
I have absolutely no idea who the guy was that was lead away from Merv just before Neo, Trin and Morph arive.
There are 12 counselors, and with a quick count, 3 men and 9 women I believe (but I'm not sure).
The license plate nr. of Trin's car during the high way chase scene reads AD2003 or DA2003 or OA2003, I 'm only sure about 2003, but if it's AD, then it could be Anno Domini 2003 (Year of the Lord 2003).
The license plate nr. of the Agents in this scene is TX729. I'm not sure if this is relevant. The nine keeps coming back.
I'm sure there's something wrong with the spoon.
Bane (aka smith) cuts the lifelines in his hand, that's all.
If the Architect knows what Neo is about to do, why bother the whole complexity of the plot?
Morpheus says in Zion: Good night Zion, sweet dreams. Very nice ref. for Morpheus being the God of Dreams.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING:
at the very end of the movie when Morpheus speaks in his red chair ("I believe this night holds for every one of us the very true meaning etc."), there is a very very very quick shot of the Sentinels on a background which exactly looks like Zion by night when Morpheus says ("good night Zion, sweet dreams"). Strange isn't it, after all, they did not get inside Zion yet, they just got to one of the main lines.
Oh, and it is not the Hammer that EMP'd the squiddies, it was Neo and no-one else. Neo has realized his higher powers now (for those of you who would still be doubting).
I know this post may not contribute to something at all, I just wanted to let you know. Have a nice weekend.
Brisvegas1Jul 11, 2003 at 11:22AM
hey - has anyone noticed the design for zero-one (the machine city state) in the animatrix.
it is a rounded dome with a central core that projects down into the earth...
I dont have access to it anymore - but it seems to appear to be very similar to the way that zion is represented in the matrix revolutions trailer when they talk about the machines only being 24 hours away...
also in final flight of the osiris - zion is said to be only 4 kilometers straight down from the surface.
wouldn't be full on if zion (zi-on) and Zero-One were one and the same location... I wonder what the implications of that would be?
Spoon BoyJul 11, 2003 at 12:48PM
Siddarta says:
The license plate nr. of the Agents in this scene is TX729. I'm not sure if this is relevant. The nine keeps coming back.
You're right about nine. 729 is nine in numerology (i.e. 7+2+9=18; 1+8=9).
While probably irrelevant, it's an interesting coincidence that TX is the name of the female Terminator in T3.
the word "One" indeed disappears from the play yard once Smith pops in to begin the Burly Brawl
I've been thinking about this weeks. It's beginning to seem like everything's coming back to Smith. I can't say with confidence that Smith isn't The One.
gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
They were probably in the seat compartment of the motorcycle she came flying in on.
Spoon BoyJul 11, 2003 at 12:54PM
Re: TX729
If anybody feels like brainstorming this one, "TX729" could be considered as short-hand for "transfer seven to nine".
GhostJul 11, 2003 at 3:54PM
The only thing that I can come up with is that TX stands for Text. And that 729 stands for chapter 7 verse 9 in the bible. Now the only thing is that there are quite a few chapter 7 verse 9's. But that's what a brainstorm is all about. Also the 729 could be a date (7/29) or possibly a time (7:29). Any thoughts???
Spoon BoyJul 11, 2003 at 7:46PM
Does Texas have some sort of secret state holiday on July 29th that we don't know about? lol...
Brisvegas1Jul 12, 2003 at 1:30AM
I yhink you are wrong about the matrix code at the start of the film being a representation of a digger....
I have a downloaded copy of the film and have watched that segment over and over.
To me it looks very much like the internals of the clock that the code morphs into at the end of the sequence - you see cogs, gears and screws - how does that relate to the digger.
If in fact it was a representation of the digger... then bam.. thats all the evidence you need for a matrix in a matrix idea of zion... and I don't think the W. Bros would give us that in the first 5 secs of the film.
gezJul 12, 2003 at 11:04AM
gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
Spoon Boy says:
They were probably in the seat compartment of the motorcycle she came flying in on.
Yeah but we see her fighting the Agent for several minutes in a skintight suit and there's no way she could have those guns in her suit, they're pretty big.
I can't figure it because I'm pretty sure on set they would have to consider it - where does Carrie-Anne get these big guns from?
Brisvegas1 says:
To me it looks very much like the internals of the clock that the code morphs into at the end of the sequence - you see cogs, gears and screws - how does that relate to the digger.
I agree - I always thought it looks like the cogs and gears of a clock.
What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??
This is the main topic of their conversation and we know from the first film that they don't just give the Oracle throw away lines, they're always important altho we have to wait to see their true meaning.
Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?
Or is she trying to raise his self-awareness - know thyself.
g
Spoon BoyJul 12, 2003 at 6:12PM
gez says:
What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??
Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?
I don't believe she's referring to the past when speaking of Neo's choice. She's telling him he's a program fulfilling his purpose. He in fact has no choice in the matter.
Think of a conventional calculator. This calculator is programmed to accurately calculate mathematical equations; that's its purpose. Now, give the calculator the illusion that it can choose. When you ask it to calculate "2+2", it will think its choosing "4" as the answer. However, we all know that it would've come up with "4" no matter what. Its purpose overrides its choice, and its choice follows its purpose.
Old_GobboJul 13, 2003 at 10:22PM
I don't know if anyone has posted this before.. I read the other longer thread in different sections so I likely missed some posts..
anyways during "World Record" in the Animatrix DVD when the Runner is talking to his friend (that uses his hands way too much when he's talking) he starts a stopwatch and it stops it at the interval that is labeled 39 in red, but can also be interpreted at being a 9 in conjunction with the other black numbers..
I have no idea what this relates to.. but since it's in pretty plain sight I'm assuming this is just one of those things I can't seem to make a connection to.. either way, let me hear your thoughts.
Siddarta GouthamaJul 14, 2003 at 6:21AM
Hi y'all,
just a reminder. Anyone who will watch reloaded (again) should pay close attention to the graffiti during the Oracle's talk and the Burly Brawl. There are much clues inside it.
As mentioned before "One" disappears when Smith comes. At the door where the Oracle has left, there was graffiti of "Boy" or "The boy" it went all pretty fast.
Oh, and now I think of it. I once read the the Wachowskis have an interest in quantumphysics too. So there must be some hints on that one, I believe.(I hope)
bellJul 14, 2003 at 8:13AM
Brisvegas says: I yhink you are wrong about the matrix code at the start of the film being a representation of a digger....
If you compare the beginning of the film where you see the spiralling effect represented in matrix code, with the spiralling digger near the end of the film heading through molten; you will see they are the same. Also the inner workings of the clock (it is an electrical clock remember) is in fact zion in computer code.
bellJul 14, 2003 at 8:41AM
gez says:
What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??
Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?
it is all to do with the inevitable outcome that neo will save trinity, everything is contrived so that trinity is in danger; from within the matrix and zion as i eluded to on a previous thread. Remeber everything in the matrix is controlled to gently nudge neo to the source. The council sent 2 ships without explanation to locke, to find and help morpheous and co. if one of them ships werent destroyed trinity would never of entered to matrix. Remember neo is having visions of trinity's possible death when he is in zion, The architect is feeding neo with these images when neo is sleeps in the supposed real world. You see trinity falling on the architects screens before neo goes to save her, so neo see's at least three play back's of trinity's near death experiance, before he actually save her. How would the architect have a play back of trinity if he did'nt create the situation. Neo is not psychis in zion either, its because he is still hooked up in zion to the matrix.
Every ones/thing purpose is to have an influenec on neo to differing degree's in order to fullfill his purpose. the oracle has her agenda so she wants to guide neo to the architect as it is for the good of the matrix if neo reaches the source. As in m1 neo's primary goal it would seem was to destroy the matrix (we thought the oracle was human), now in m2 the oracle as well as other prorams wants to survive as the oracle knows that this time the system wont be rebooted as smith could destroy everything. (this never happened in previous versions). So the oracle is manipulating neo has she has her own agenda, her agenda being self preservation and hopefully as the oracle alude's to peacefull co existance with humans in the matrix. On that bases oracle was deludeing morpheous from day one as it served her purpose.
bellJul 14, 2003 at 9:00AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
As mentioned before "One" disappears when Smith comes. At the door where the Oracle has left, there was graffiti of "Boy" or "The boy" it went all pretty fast.
Oh, and now I think of it. I once read the the Wachowskis have an interest in quantumphysics too.
The 'boy' could be popper, all graphitti is the matrix's voice so to speak, perhaps it is refer's to an increase in substantiation cases.
with regards to quatum physics: you could view the matrix as a blackhole or in fact the universe, one theory is that everything in the universe has happened, the universe was created and now has already imploded, or exspanded to the point there is not enough matter etc. any way, as i said every thing has happend, though to us it has'nt happened yet because of the way we percieve time and because we are stuck in this universe in this reality/dimension. The same could be said of the matrix/zion those inside are asleep living out there fantasy lives but to those on the outside an entire lifetime in matrix could seem inconsequential and last a matter of minutes in the real world. So those on the outside (machines) watching enter at select moments to make adjustments. It is also a possibility that when neo meets the architect that they are out of time, in relation to the matrix, or the matrix is paused, whatever.
oh, and smith and the agents are also holders of the keys, trinity/ morpheous mentions this to neo in m1.
Siddarta GouthamaJul 14, 2003 at 9:07AM
Oh, something very important I forgot to add.
Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
To me this means that he wasn't part of the 23 chosen people from the MAtriX. I interpret the words of the Architect literally. "You will be required to choose from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 women 7 men." This is not children !!!
If zion were real and not matrix (reasoning for this can be found here) then...
The counsel board seems very suspcicious to me. Maybe they know most of the One's path and maybe they're all machines (machines can look like human, take a look at second renaissance part1 where the ladybot is destroyed). Maybe, the old woman in the counsil can be considered as mother of the matrix. She wants 2 ships to be sent to the Neb's crew (as if she knows that they'll require 2 ships).
hell... my mind is all screwed up (again).
Siddarta GouthamaJul 14, 2003 at 9:12AM
Bell said:
It is also a possibility that when neo meets the architect that they are out of time, in relation to the matrix, or the matrix is paused, whatever.
right, remember that you see Trin falling on the Archtitect's screens, whereas this hasn't happened yet.
Suppose that the love story happens for the first time, hence hasn't happened before with the other ONes, then by exiting the Architect's room, Neo might go back into time a little bit (???)and rescue her.
bellJul 14, 2003 at 9:26AM
gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
she may have picked the guns of the floor, remember there are a few of her dead chums from zion scattered about the place in the control room she enter's
bellJul 14, 2003 at 9:40AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Oh, something very important I forgot to add.
Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
To me this means that he wasn't part of the 23 chosen people from the MAtriX.
I dont agree, the 11 years hammand refers to could be the last 11 years of the previous matrix, and being one of the 23, hammand was 11 years old when he was put into zion. Remember in m1 morpheous states that most freed people from the matrix (moved to zion) are done so at and early age. all the council look 50 to 60 ish in age. hammand was 11, neo is about 40 (well keano is) the figures match up. Remember this version of the matrix is as old as neo, the architect says the one is the beggining and end of each version.
bellJul 14, 2003 at 10:12AM
just read the possible m3 plot again, and the 3 lines in the black desert dream neo has as got be thinking. in psychology it could be percieved as a key or a lock, an image that opens a pandora's box to a forgotten reality or identity.
i was thinking, is neo suffering from memory loss, amnesia and in turn is slowly remembering who he is and who he has been all the time. maybe neo was the one in all previous versions of the matrix. the one/carrier could have been used in each version of the matrix to carry the prime program, the physicallity and design of this carrier is always the same in each version, though there are different personality traits for each carrier. As the architect creates different enviroments and scenario's which determine slight differences between the respective one's.
2).
GhostJul 14, 2003 at 10:13AM
bell says:
Remember this version of the matrix is as old as neo, the architect says the one is the beggining and end of each version.
ONCE AGAIN, DON'T MISINTERPERATE THAT STATMENT. The TECH SIMPLY SAID THAT "He prefers counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next". All this means is that from the time the first one reboots the matrix until the time another anomaly emerges. This very well could be directly after the matrix is reloaded, but it would make sense that there is some lag between the two events. Read the old thread for the discussion on how old the matrix is.
bellJul 14, 2003 at 10:26AM
siddarta says: Neo might go back into time a little bit (???)and rescue her.
if any one is manipulating time and space it will be the architect for sure. From the architect's point of view everything has already happened, cause and effect, his discussion with neo precipitates an eventual outcome. an outcome the architect new would come to fruitition. neo says "you should hope we dont meet again", architect says" we wont", with a convincing amount of certainty i might add. From the architect point's of view everything played out with neo, as the architect new it would. There is forsight involved here for sure...
bellJul 14, 2003 at 10:30AM
ghost says:Read the old thread for the discussion on how old the matrix is.
im aware of previous debate on this, but with regards to the argument regarding hamman, going backward from this matrix to the previous i think my point holds.
bellJul 14, 2003 at 10:35AM
ghost says:ONCE AGAIN, DON'T MISINTERPERATE THAT STATMENT. The TECH SIMPLY SAID THAT "He prefers counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next".
the architect also states that neo/one is the beginning and the end. And i think at this point no single persons interpretation of m1/m2 can be set in stone.
GhostJul 14, 2003 at 12:13PM
bell says:
the architect also states that neo/one is the beginning and the end....And no single persons interpretation of m1/m2 can be set in stone.
Very true, How can you even believe anything that the programs say? But when I interpret the conversation (assuming it was all true), I get this: Neo/One TRULLY IS the beginning and the end. His purpose is to crash the system and reboot it. But that does not necessarily mean that his lifetime defines the duration of the Matrix.
The only reason I believe this is because I went threw a tedious process of creating an outline. It’s on the original thread and it shows that the amount of people living within Z10N does not match the time it would take to create them all from 23 people. If they actually did it would take something like 300-400 years even longer. So in my opinion I can't see it possible for the matrix to exist based upon Neo's lifeline (His birth and Death matching the destruction and rebooting of the matrix). More likely the matrix exists centering around the fundamental flaw, so when the flaw escalates it then creates the systemic anomaly (THE ONE). So there would actually be a staggered start before the anomaly appears: Say 200 - 300 years.
This is all assuming that Z10N is in fact the real world?
By the way what do we write for 1,000? A summary of all that was said?? I’m not posting 1,000 but I know
It’s got to be good…
Spoon BoyJul 14, 2003 at 2:02PM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Oh, something very important I forgot to add. Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
Sounds like he was brought out of his pod @ the age of 11, which was considered optimum and presented minimum risk. Remember Morpheus apologized to Neo for bringing him out later than what they deem was safe. "We have a rule..." etc.
Counselor Hamman's name just jumped out @ me. Somebody had mentioned the relevance of Noah's story to the Matrix. Didn't Noah have a son named Ham? Man...
GhostJul 14, 2003 at 2:04PM
You know the real question and the important answer is Why is this movie so captivating? Why are we so urgently addicted to this story? Why do we sit here countless hours and discuss this movies twists and turns and possibilities, and love it? Why?
Could it be that first advertisement "WHAT IS THE MATRIX", asking us a subliminal question that we have to until this day strive to find the answer to? Does that sound familiar?
Or could it be that we are the people that need to be challenged? It could be that the “bad guy kills cops partner revenge story” isn’t enough mental stimulation, and this truly challenges us………?
L.O.L. to the true Matrix fans! We are the real fans right here. The people that would die for the chance to meet the creators, to ask the questions, so they could understand the total vision. The people that would if they could would stay here all day and all night and who know 2 months and 1,000 essays isn't enough. I know that’s what I am. I hope I end up like the people that put down Jedi, That’s a true fan.
Well good luck to 1,000+. I think that this is the only site with the only people that I couldn't get sick of. Keep it going…….
" The truth is out there "
Spoon BoyJul 14, 2003 at 3:14PM
Why is this movie so captivating? Why are we so urgently addicted to this story? Why do we sit here countless hours and discuss this movies twists and turns and possibilities, and love it? Why?
Because people like the folks in this thread have certain intellectual needs, and the Matrix satisfies these needs. It stimulates our natural appetite to explore, uncover problems, and solve them. Not everybody in the world has these munchies.
It's like Myst on plutonium.
GhostJul 14, 2003 at 4:39PM
"People that put down Jedi" did anybody get that? Sorry. It = for a religion....
So if that's what a star wars fan Puts Down, what does a Matrix fan do?
Another Question: The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?
Spoon BoyJul 14, 2003 at 7:22PM
The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?
Correct. It started out as an idea for a comic book, and then exploded into the whole shebang. They've always claimed they envisioned as a trilogy of films. They're not making this up as they go.
If you haven't done so yet, you'll want to watch the accompanying "The Matrix Revisited", which came with the most recent version of the M1 DVD last year. Killer stuff. You'll find rare interviews w/ the W's and others, much of it taped during the production of Reloaded/Revolutions. The whole project was @ its creative peak, and its captured on videotape. You'll dig.
Siddarta GouthamaJul 15, 2003 at 2:50AM
GHOST
I loved your 1000 th post. Congrats on a great statement.
"Well good luck to 1,000+. I think that this is the only site with the only people that I couldn't get sick of. Keep it going……. "
I couldn't agree more...
Spoon boy said:Sounds like he was brought out of his pod @ the age of 11, which was considered optimum and presented minimum risk.
I agree, but do you think that he is part of the 23? Personally I don't believe so. But still there is something strange with the council. I disagree with Bell who stated that they 're all in their 50 to 60 years. No, it seems to me they're all around 70. And then, there is some kind of generation gap it seems.
Something is definitely going on here, but what?
Oh, you wanna read the following too (good catch Spoon Boy). Genesis 9: The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
So Ham(man) was indeed the Son of Noah (Neo). So if Neo or better the ONE is the Alfa and the Omega (Revelations), thus the beginning and the end, he is the One who ends and the One who begins.
Now i 've come to think of it, remember the license plate OA2003 or AO2003 : this could also mean alfa omega 2003, .... well it could mean anything I'd say.
Old_GobboJul 15, 2003 at 5:41AM
Actually what I remember him saying - and I'm pretty sure it was in the game - was "I am the Alfa.. of your Omega"
The word "your' could imply Neo in which case Neo is the end.. but Smith is the start.
I dunno.. idle thoughts
Old_GobboJul 15, 2003 at 5:43AM
Actually what I remember him saying - Smith that is
Siddarta GouthamaJul 15, 2003 at 6:48AM
Old_Gobbo,
pretty freak'n stuff you've come up with. Great! I wonder what it means. Smith told Neo in the Burly Brawl that he understood the rules now, meaning the rules that guide the One to the path of the One. Smith thus knows that the One is the beginning and also the end. Saying that he is the alfa of Neo's Omega means to me that he is aware of the Matrix looping, but now Smith wants to start the loop in a new way, namely with him as a beginning to end everything, also the matrix itself. AI and humans will have to cooperate (if there is such a thing as humans)
bellJul 15, 2003 at 10:24AM
ghost says:But when I interpret the conversation (assuming it was all true), I get this: Neo/One TRULLY IS the beginning and the end. His purpose is to crash the system and reboot it. But that does not necessarily mean that his lifetime defines the duration of the Matrix.
I fully aggree with what you say (if zion is real). I seem to have convinced my self that zion is in the matrix, and all my theories stem from that premise.
after watching m1 again, after neo and trin save morpheous one of the agents says "diploy the sentinals". if that course of action had taken place at that moment and smith did'nt pursue neo at that point and killed neo as well as be destroyed by neo, are we to assume that would have been the course of events in the previous versions. the course of events being that the sentinals where diployed ealier, neo evolved as he would do , but notably smith would remian the same, having not been destroyed by neo. therefore the cycle of version 6 would end and 7 would begin. only this time in version 6, smith was destroted by neo and this time the cycle will end and the matrix my be destroyed indefinately?
The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?
ive heard a horror story on the net that there is going to be a matrix 4 (i think joe peshi may return!!!). joel silver was so impressed with m2 takings he's seeing dollar signs. as none of the main cast said they'd do another, and the w's probably wont...phantom menace anyone.
Ghost says: Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know.
data is a good example, though i think v'ger in star trek: the motion picture is more apt , as i mentioned on the old thread the machines purpose and the architect's why? could be to a attain quatum conscienous. to under stand the nature of reality, other dimenions, higher levels of thought and the human imagination. focusing on human imagination, everything up to now in the matrix is black and white, there are no grey area's in the design. charactors are stereo typical creations e.g. meravingian typical frenchman. the architecture is bland. The architect wants to dig deeper into the human psyche to create a more vibrant matrix, to truly reflect the hidden depth's of hummanity. perhaps this is how 0.09% will accept the program.
Saying that he is the alfa of Neo's Omega means to me that he is aware of the Matrix looping, but now Smith wants to start the loop in a new way, namely with him as a beginning to end everything
they are binary opposite's, ying and yang, id and ego. as smith states "i dont know how it happend? maybe some of you copied onto to me" (to that effect). if smith and neo were to join (though it would appear from the burley scene that both have to be willing parties) what would the outcome be. silly question, perhaps? but what if smith was in some way linked to the source, or is the source.
siddarta says: meaning the rules that guide the One to the path of the One...Smith thus knows that the One is the beginning and also the end.
i think that is an accurate observation as smith does appear in the corridor, knowing very well where neo is heading (the source).
i still believe smith's evolution is down to the architect that this is somehow part of the architects why.
siddarta says:I disagree with Bell who stated that they 're all in their 50 to 60 years.
neo's says to hamman " is that why there are not any young people on the council". this could taken as a throw away comment but i think that the w's are bringing this point up for us to make the conection with the 23. My reading of m2 (this is based on how i percieved m1, and later these interpretations were shown to be true), is that every thing in m2 should be taken as literal, and the truth of what is going on is in fact the obvious. this is especially true with regards to the programs, as it is in there nature. true reality is purpose and why, we humans get lost in materilistic needs and as a result our minds are clouded, we lose track of what is important in our lives. the humans/ or those in zion, have yet to rediscover/discover there true purpose and calling in life, neo it would appear is at a more advanced stage.
1000+ quite an achievement...
bellJul 15, 2003 at 10:39AM
i mentioned that in m1 in the tunnel scene with neo/trin/switch that tank is wrong was written on the wall. above that on the wall is written Last One you see this when neo is stood up and about to get into the car.
i think the reason this serious of films is so good, is because it is intelligent to the point it demands the audience to look beneath the surface, and also the evidence is there for all to see the amount of hard work the w's have put into the matrix. to me the, matrix should be the standard, with regards to cinema, we dont need to be subjected to dumbed down crap, that serves little purpose and means very little, the same can be said of literiture and television.
Spoon BoyJul 15, 2003 at 11:54AM
Siddarta says:
do you think that (Hamman) is part of the 23?
Actually, I haven't accepted there even were 23, since in order for there to be 23, (the fifth) Neo would have chosen Door 1. I'm not convinced of that. I see the 23, and the rest of the Architect's conditional instructions, as components that, when combined with The One's "choice", lead to the inevitable conclusion and keep the machine running. Everything in this story is a necessary component of a single program.
For the purpose of your question, assuming there were 23, then no. Hamman couldn't be part of the 23, as that would make this current iteration of Zion no more than 70 or 80 years old.
GhostJul 15, 2003 at 3:00PM
Spoon Boy says:
I haven't accepted there even were 23...
Was that everyone’s first impression when they saw the film for the first time? I know I left the theater confused. I didn't believe the Tech and I believe that Neo was either physic or in another matrix. But this thread has made me question that again. So I was just wondering what everyone’s first thought was before the process of participating in this thread had altered your consciousness.
GhostJul 15, 2003 at 4:46PM
Oh and Spoon Boy i found your match.......
http://matrix.ugo.com/TheZionSwitchboard/
messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=3817
Just a little comedy, that's all.
Spoon BoyJul 15, 2003 at 7:57PM
Ghost says:
I was just wondering what everyone’s first thought was before the process of participating in this thread
As I left the theater the first time on May 14, what stuck with me for the evening was the spoon gift in Zion, as well as the final scene where Neo stopped the squiddies. That scene alone made my jaw drop, as it dawned on me that what we thought we had our noodles wrapped around for the past four years was not what we were dealing with anymore. First impression: Matrix-in-a-Matrix. Zion was not the real world we had thought it was, and we must therefore re-evaluate the nature of our heroes in this story. I immediately remembered Morpheus' line from M1, describing AI as "a singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines." The hair stood up on the back of my head as things started falling into place. I felt tricked by the W's, and loved 'em for it.
Saw it again the following night.
Over the course of the next few days, we tracked down a transcription of the Architect scene on the Net, where I could review the conversation carefully. I then found myself in this thread about a week later and the rest is history. In the making...
Siddarta GouthamaJul 16, 2003 at 4:41AM
Ghost said on the 23 issue: Was that everyone’s first impression when they saw the film for the first time?
I initially believed that all previous Ones chose the right door, allthough that I was not convinced that they 'd actually done so. On the old thread I soon found out that other people (eg Spoon Boy) also believed that no One chose the right door, which could explain the calmth that the Tech put forward when Neo walked to the left.
The scenes that were burnt on my mind were "you saved yourself of the Kid", "the spoon gift", "the talk with Hamman" and of course "emp'ing the squids".
I know for sure that this thread has the potential to digg in the right direction, it's just difficult to get a nice good overview to see the whole picture.
To end, I just read something interesting: remember the criticized sex scene , where Neo and Trin' were under some kind of Arch. In medieval scriptures and drawings, everything that had divinity were placed under an arch. I love the Bro's work for putting the focus on details. Even the criticized sex scene is full of symbolism showing the divinity of Neo and Trin'.
Spoon BoyJul 16, 2003 at 12:52PM
Regarding the arch, and more philosophical insights, here's an outstanding article for those who missed it:
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm
lofty (Adam)Jul 17, 2003 at 3:28PM
Something has been bugging me for a long time... It is 6371 Kilometers to the center of the Earth. Zion is supposed to be close to the Earth's core, where it is still warm.
In Final Flight of the Osiris, it appeared that they were on the surface of the Earth, "I've never seen the surface before...". But then the captain asks what's four kilometers straight down?
??? What's going on here?
Old_GobboJul 17, 2003 at 6:17PM
In Final Flight of the Osiris, it appeared that they were on the surface of the Earth, "I've never seen the surface before...". But then the captain asks what's four kilometers straight down?
I don't know how big Zion is.. but it might just be 4 miles down to the outskirts of it. Zion is never really shown (not that I can remember) but it might have a central core and then some branches and stuff. Plus with all the nukes and shit that have gone off.. the earth could be pretty different than it is today. We know that some areas of the ocean stretch down farther than we can track.. so they could be in such an area.
Now.. on to my point :)
"I killed you Mr. Anderson, with a certain amount of satisfaction I might add. But then something happened, something I knew was impossible but it happened anyways. You destroyed me Mr. Anderson" (that's from memory..but I'm pretty sure it's right)
Now.. this quote got me thinking about a couple of things
1. Trinity kisses Neo, and magically he comes back to life!
Now.. does anyone else find this somewhat odd?
Yes.. trin may love Neo, and yes.. love is powerful, but not that powerful (not in the W's world). How is it that Trin's "love" combined with some cheesy prediction by the supposed Oracle that Neo is able to come back to life?
2. If all this is just a repeating circle of events (one is born, reaches source.. Zion is destroyed/rebuilt, one is born...) then why is it Smith is trying to Kill Neo? Don't the machines -need- him?
This -could- be argued. Smith is just a program with set rules (which he later seems to break :P) and that he is unaware of the knowledge of the Architect. But then.. why would the architect allow the -possible- destruction of the one.
1 and 2 -could- be answered by the matrix in a matrix theory. Smith is suprised, he doesn't know how Neo was able to come back to life, (somehow I don't think he's buying the "Oh well Trin loves me so I must be the one, and I must be able to come back to life line, Neo was the one from birth.. Her love wasn't the deciding factor. [at least I hope not]). The only reason I see for the Architect to keep the agents in the dark about this whole thing is if it doesn't matter if he dies because he's not dead in the real REAL world.
I don't personally like the whole Matrix in a Matrix theory.. but it's all in the way the W's present it.. and to me.. it's looking more and more likely that's gonna be the case.
Siddarta GouthamaJul 18, 2003 at 2:24AM
lofty adam said:It is 6371 Kilometers to the center of the Earth.
Yep, I found this strange too, and I don't think it has anything to do with all those nukes etc.
old Gombo said:then why is it Smith is trying to Kill Neo?
I agree with you, Smith as a program did not know what was going on.
You quoted the conversation, quote a little bit further than Smith is saying "I got to know the rules" meaning that after his defeat he understood that Neo was the One to reach the source. I guess AI was almost pretty pissed off by Smith having killed Neo.
His job was to chase the Zionists, giving them a hard time, so that Morph' and his gang were even more convinced that they had to get rid of that "nasty machine world and the matrix. "
Matrix within matrix seems most likely, but I still hope that the bro's have something in surprise for us.
GhostJul 18, 2003 at 9:46AM
Old_Gobbo says:
Her love wasn't the deciding factor
That's perfect. Everything centers around Neo and Trin's love. The reason is because the machines needed to be positive that Neo would choose the door to save her. So When Neo died and Trinity professed her love for Neo they uploaded the One program into him turning him into the Almighty. The second test was the Kiss by Persophone. She tested how strong their love was and when she was shown it was sufficient then she let them go to the Keymaker. Without making it threw that "gate" he wouldn't have made it to the Tech.
Interesting huh.......... :)
Siddarta GouthamaJul 18, 2003 at 10:12AM
Ghost said:1. What particular variable made this Version turn out different then the last 5?
This variable would be the female person. It's always the women that make the difference ;-) (poor Adam when Eve offered him the apple, Cleopatra and Caesar, Renaissance Queen Elizabeth...)
Trin' is the most important variable of difference in this version of the matrix. Neo has other more specific feelings compared to the other ONes "vis à vis love".
But as the some of the hypotheses go, this wouldn't change anything of the outcome of this version, i.e. if all previous Ones also chose the left door.
I also think that this is the first version in which Merv has captured the Keymaker. Could that be?
Wait a minute, now I come to think of it... why do the Agents want to delete the Keymaker??????? The matrix needs this program for its reload, thus he isn't redundant. Assume that Agent...(forgot his name) was ignorant as Smith was in TM1 (he didn't know the rules) why would the agents chase the keymaker to delete him rather than chasing Trin' who represents a far more greater threat to the MAtrix. The agents were specifically after him and not Trin' right? If they knew the rules, they would not chase him, because Neo had to reach him. If they were ignorant, they should be after Trin. This is strange, isn't it?
I think we're onto something here... anyone?
Bytheway, are there any geologists out here who are familiar with the temperature profile of the earth crust in functon of depth. How deep would we have to go to find fairly constant temperatures of say 25°C (that's 80°F).
GhostJul 18, 2003 at 11:55AM
Well, well... So listen up then. Let’s say Trinity is the most important variable, and that everything centers around her. So without her Neo wouldn't be the one, he wouldn't have gone to the tech, and wouldn't have took the door he did. Then she would have to be a vital part of the system of control designed by the machines.
This goes back to a question I asked the thread on 06/05/2003. "How would the Oracle (a machine) know that Trinity (a freed mind human) and Neo would fall in love?"
The Oracle told Trin she would fall in love with a dead man and he would be the One. So she knew Neo would die and become the One and They Would Fall In Love.
But the part that's soo “noodle baking” is all of the other Ones experienced their profound attachment to the rest of their species in a very general way, Neo's experience is far more specific: Vis-a-vis, love. So the LOVE part has not happened before! Also the machines cannot understand or predict human emotion!?!
So how could the Oracle predict it!!!!!
One possible explanation is that Trin is actually a machine. Well not a machine but a computer program uploaded into a human Mind. Besides that explanation I cannot figure how the Oracle would know that They would fall in love….. So if anyone has any idea. Please enlighten me.
Spoon BoyJul 18, 2003 at 1:06PM
Siddarta says:
Bytheway, are there any geologists out here who are familiar with the temperature profile of the earth crust in functon of depth. How deep would we have to go to find fairly constant temperatures of say 25°C (that's 80°F).
We know from mines and drill holes near the earth's surface that the temperature increases about 1 degree Fahrenheit for every 60 feet in depth. There is no "constant" temperature you reach and stabilize @ on your way down; it continually gets hotter the deeper you go. As an estimate, assuming that the surface is a comfortable, say, 68 degrees F, we can say that the temperature would reach 80 degrees somewhere around 720 feet down. The colder it is on the surface, the deeper you'd have to go to reach 80 degrees.
More info:
http://newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99256.htm
why do the Agents want to delete the Keymaker???????
hmm...were the Agents after the Keymaker for their own independent reasons? Or were they working for Merv, as the Twins were? Remember, it was Merv who wanted to recapture the freed Keymaker.
Old_GobboJul 18, 2003 at 4:11PM
Just thought of something..
The machines, (as we would be lead to believe) drill down to Zion every cycle to destroy it... so does this mean after they're done they refill the holes that they made on their way up? And if that is so.. wouldn't someone stop and look at the giant hole of recently disturbed earth and say "Hey guys.. what's all this about?"
Things don't add up here at all.. in the "real" world.
GhostJul 18, 2003 at 5:29PM
The reason is because this is how people think in Z10N:
Councilor Hamann: "Almost no one comes down here, unless, of course, there's a problem. That's how it is with people - nobody cares how it works as long as it works."
"There is so much in this world that I do not understand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutely no idea how it works."
I hope that answers you question. But I think you’re somewhat right. Lets say the Tech saw Neo as a powerful force and the machines tried to side with him. They used the fact that the squids were digging to reinforce the lie that Z10N will fall, and that it has before. All this to trick Neo to side with them for some twisted machine mind probe experiment with needles, electrodes, and stuff! .....? Uhhh.... Well mabey I got carried away. Can't wait to see the next Movie.
GhostJul 18, 2003 at 5:32PM
Also the majority of us don't believe that Z10N is real anyway. If it was another Matrix there would be no hole. And the rest of us believe the Tech lied so then no hole was ever made.
SajjmanJul 19, 2003 at 10:29PM
very interesting stuff ;D Got a question though. It's about simulated damage vs real life damage . If you enter the matrix and broke your arm for example or got another bone fracture INSIDE the matrix , do u still have a broken arm when u plug out? I mean , your brain cannot make your bone crack just because it thinks your arm is broke, it can only simulate the pain but still .. no bone fracture .... right?
Old_GobboJul 20, 2003 at 2:13AM
Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".
The runner's friend stops a stopwatch at what could either be a 37 or a 9.
Spoon BoyJul 21, 2003 at 12:30AM
Sajjmaan says:
If you enter the matrix and broke your arm for example or got another bone fracture INSIDE the matrix , do u still have a broken arm when u plug out? I mean , your brain cannot make your bone crack just because it thinks your arm is broke, it can only simulate the pain but still .. no bone fracture .... right?
Great question. Hypothetically speaking, you're correct; your brain cannot inflict physical damage on your bone. This presents a problem until you realize that there is no bone.
Yet another example of why a physical world doesn't fit into this story.
Old_Gobbo says:
Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".
Ah, more numbers. Cool. First thing that occurs to me is that 37 is prime, while 9 is square. I'll need to roll that one around. Numerologists out there? Please enlighten.
SajjmanJul 21, 2003 at 1:17PM
Spoon boy ; how would the brain react if it sends impulses of pain to a " broken arm" but then when plugged out sees that the arm is intacs ? Or do you have to lay on those tables and heal yourself because it doesnt matter if the arm is broken or not since the brain is superior to flesh and bones ? :)
what the fuck ;( If so isnt it impossible to get REALLY hurt in the matrix? Morpheus said something about this stuff in the first movie... Something along the lines that u ocassionaly get nosebleed after inflicted damage inside the matrix but nothing more?
Spoon BoyJul 21, 2003 at 8:55PM
Sajjman says:
isnt it impossible to get REALLY hurt in the matrix?
In my opinion, yes. Impossible. In order to get REALLY hurt, you need a REAL body in the REAL world. I don't believe there's either, for countless reasons.
Check out the archived thread. We talked a lot about this.
GHOSTJul 22, 2003 at 9:31AM
WOULDN'T IT BE POSSIBLE FOR THE NUERO TRANSMITTERS TO GET OVERLOADED AND THEN NOT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD? SAY IF IN THE MATRIX THE INDIVIDUAL GOT A BROKEN BONE IN THE MATRIX. ??????????????
SajjmanJul 22, 2003 at 12:53PM
hmmm just came up with something that might be a glint towards "matrix withing a matrix" - theory that manifested itself in the first movie ;D
ehum..... might not be buuuut :
The only "freeing" of a captured mind that we are able to observe is the one of neo right ? They start with the process withing the matrix (red pill blablalbalbla..... but when neo is released from his pod a machine grabs him , scans him and then throws him down in something that looks like a sewer system(well skip the details it was a long time ago i saw the movie so stfu :P) and then he "wakes up" .. what i'm thinking of his , what kind of a robot deliberatley grabs a human up , scans him and then releases him ? Unless it IS HIS JOB TO RELEASE (0.01 % or 1 % of) HUMANS ? I dont know if im getting this shit all wrong but have they ever questions themselves why the fuck the machine does that or is the machine under the influence of the humans ?
might be something , might not ;D
P.S Is it impossible that neo's coma is a product of "self-substination" (or whatever its called) ? u know .. self awakening.... When kid in kids story (animatrix) self substinate himself he had to lie down on a table and vitalize his status while neo and trin is watching him , what if neo just selfawoke himself from the "real world" ? Trin said something along the lines that "how does he know, its like he senses it" when talking to neo about Kid, Kid might have got some kind of special sense when he woke himself up from the orignal matrix, but the powers that can be unlocked by selfawakening from the "zion matrix" is possible far greater.
D.S long P.S :D
Spoon BoyJul 22, 2003 at 1:18PM
Sajjman says:
what kind of a robot deliberatley grabs a human up , scans him and then releases him ? Unless it IS HIS JOB TO RELEASE (0.01 % or 1 % of) HUMANS ?
The "robot" you speak of is a recycling mechanism, tossing the awakened (and no longer useable) pod bodies into the sewer system to be liquified and fed intraveinously to the unawakened. It's not releasing the .1% from the Matrix, but recycling the released.
SajjmanJul 22, 2003 at 1:24PM
Are you sure spoon boy ? You're probably right thou ;D
but u havent answered my other thingie ;P go ahead and read, waiting for an fairly good answer from you.
GhostJul 22, 2003 at 1:30PM
Just to clarify the robot is actually what you see when you die. I believe that when a person in the matrix dies they wake up on the other side expecting to see god. Instead they see the scanning machine that flushes them down the toilet.
Off the point but my favorite part of the first movie is that Neo after his "Death", was flushed and then he saw the light. Actually three lights. Could this be he was raised up into the heavens by the father, son, and holy ghost (The Trinity). Then the Gates of Salvation (Neb) opened up for him. Cool huh.
Spoon BoyJul 22, 2003 at 1:49PM
Sajjman,
Not sure what answer you're looking for. You seem to be asking about the "robot"'s intentions. There are no intentions. It's just doing what it does. Think of it as a gardener tending the field of bodies and pulling weeds. Nothing more.
SajjmanJul 22, 2003 at 1:56PM
Spoon Boy,
I just didnt know that the mechanism grabbing the people unplugged threw the body down so it could be recycled , that answered the whole thing about that. But is that person that is unplugged considered dead to the machine or does the machine just throw it down the sewere thingie anyway ?
READ THE OTHER THING NOW ;PPPP
Spoon BoyJul 22, 2003 at 3:00PM
Sajjman says:
But is that person that is unplugged considered dead to the machine or does the machine just throw it down the sewere thingie anyway ?
The unplugged person (used as a battery) becomes worthless to the mainframe, and therefore discarded. Think of the unplugged person as a broken dish, a dead battery in your remote control, or a cigarette lighter out of juice. Death isn't something that even really crosses your mind with these items; they're just pieces of garbage to you.
ctm3Jul 22, 2003 at 3:31PM
Yep that whole spider robot scene reminded me of a conveyor line of food processing or something and him picking the bad ones out and tossing them down the chute. I'm pretty sure that's what it was meant to show. The billions of people that are hooked up can't all work perfectly. I'm sure there are thousands of them discarded like that you weren't being shown.
ctm3Jul 23, 2003 at 4:14AM
Guys if you want details on the films, I'd check back in with the main matrix site. whatisthematrix.com. I hadn't been there in awhile and am going through everything now because I'm obsessed like that. I noticed quicktime VR's of the rooms in Reloaded. Hamanns room shows his collectable antiques, like a can opener, an abacas, and a pacifier... neat! Also , you can look around the council chamber.. Anyway lots of material on the site if you can get around that unfriendly navigation.
bellJul 23, 2003 at 10:08AM
ctm3 says:
Yep that whole spider robot scene reminded me of a conveyor line of food processing or something and him picking the bad ones out and tossing them down the chute.
having read the debate regarding the chute robot, i think you are all missing the most vital point, that the architect being aware of the one/neo since his emergance, knows neo's has been freed (or moved to another part of the matrix) and on that basis it is likely that the robot recognised neo/one (with instruction from the architect) and released him. note that in 'world record' when the main protaganist almost substantiates the robot does not free him in the same way but reconnects him to the matrix. if neo werent the one, would he have been reconnected in the same manner and exist in the matrix as a guy in a wheel chair crippled, and unable to communicate? (and that is baring in mind that previous to neo being freed, he did not fluctuate between matrix and field of pods.)
spoonboy says:
In my opinion, yes. Impossible. In order to get REALLY hurt, you need a REAL body in the REAL world. I don't believe there's either, for countless reasons.
if you did break your leg or or damage your central nervous system in the matrix, it is fair to say that though the bone is not broken, if the mind believes it to be broken all nerv impulses could cease and that leg will have no motor function even though it is not broken, perhaps on the neb neo and co would have a recuperation program booted up for them to enter, in order to allow the mind to realise that the leg is not broken.
Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".
The runner's friend stops a stopwatch at what could either be a 37 or a 9.
my reading of world record is that the friend of the runner is a program or has for knowledge of what the runner is attempting and is aware of the outcome and trying to talk him out of running. 37?
spoonboy says:
hmm...were the Agents after the Keymaker for their own independent reasons? Or were they working for Merv, as the Twins were? Remember, it was Merv who wanted to recapture the freed Keymaker.
one would assume that the agents parole and police the matrix, they are functional. like local police they are not part of the politics and decision making of the matrix, they simply do there job. one would assume that the architect allows the agents to pursue trin and morph otherwise they may think that there escape with the keymaker was to easy and trin and morph may smell a rat. obviously the architect has an idea of how things will pan out with regards to the highway chase, as he is manipulating every thing up to this point. the architect knows neo will save morph and the keymaker. on that basis the outcome to the chase was always going to be the same as it was the keymakers function to fullfill his role of leading neo to the architect and nothing was going to stop that from happening, so on that basis the keymaker was never going to be destroyed untill he fullfilled his role. (as we see once his role is fullfilled smith kills him, the keymaker says to neo, 'it was meant to be').
bellJul 23, 2003 at 10:20AM
when trin kisses neo in m1, and neo reawakens, this scene is more about trin than it is about neo. neo will rise anyway, he is the one after all. trin has been told by the oracle that she will fall in love with the one. trin having a great deal of faith in the oracle and morpheus's beliefs buy's into what the oracle tell's her((not forgotting that the oracle has her own agenda, and to be honest if the oracle told me my fate i would view this with caution (one would assume that as she grew up in the mature she was nutured by the system so she would fullfill this role)). Anyway trin believes so much that she will fall in love with the one, it becomes a self fullfilling prophacy (that architect is a smart cookie, almost as smart as me!)
the kiss scene in m1 is a seed of many that the architect has planted, that comes to fruition in m2 when neo chooses to save trin.
bellJul 23, 2003 at 10:32AM
ghost says:
One possible explanation is that Trin is actually a machine. Well not a machine but a computer program uploaded into a human Mind. Besides that explanation I cannot figure how the Oracle would know that They would fall in love….. So if anyone has any idea. Please enlighten me.
The oracle does not know that trin will fall in love with neo she is telling trin she will fall in love with neo. The oracle is a confidence trixter, many sure/strong minded people manipulate the lost/weak minded people every day. it is a sure bet that the oracle could spin any old yarn to morpheus and he would buy into it. (remember morpheus still does not know that the oracle is a program, at the fundamental level the oracle deceived morpheus, regading her true nature, surely that undermines everything she has told morpheus.)
bellJul 23, 2003 at 10:52AM
check out new matrix revolution picks at this site: http://keanuweb.com/multimedia/display_kr3ad693.html
wow!
bellJul 23, 2003 at 11:02AM
check this web page out, excellent revolutions pics: http://keanuweb.com/credits/movie.matrix3.stills.html
The Oracle (played by an actress named Mary Alice, due to Gloria Foster's death; I assume this means that Mary Alice will play the Oracle in Revolutions, as well) states that a "special child" who will "change the world" is the child of two programs similar to herself. If she means Neo, this would suggest that Neo is a program and thus that Zion is still part of the Matrix. The Oracle says the two programs betrayed her for their love by giving Merovingian (the French information-collector guy, played by Lambert Wilson) her termination key. The Oracle allowed this because she wanted the programs to have their special child.
A hobo with longish blond hair who also appears in the Revolutions trailer has a conversation with Niobe (Jada Pinket-Smith) in which he reveals that the Zion before this one "only lasted 72 hours". Niobe volunteered to be the second ship to enter the Matrix and contact the Nebuchadnezzar because her boyfriend, Command Lock revealed to her that he had arranged for her ship, the Logos, to be the only one not to participate in the defense of Zion, in order to protect her, and she was angry. At the end of the events of Reloaded, Niobi and Ghost's hovercraft (Logos) has crashed in an uncharted underground area and they do not know how they will be found and rescued".
Siddarta GouthamaJul 24, 2003 at 8:13AM
This is what will happen at the end (lol)
"I predict that Matrix Revolutions will be 150 minutes long. By minute 140, things will be so convoluted and confusing that we'll have met the Mother of the Brother of the Architect's Father's Architect. By minute 142, Neo will look more Confused and Holy than ever. From minutes 142:00 to 149:50, Neo and 1,000,000,000 Agent Smiths will punch each other in the face, in the rain, Hockey Style. From minute 149:51 to 150:00, Andy and Larry Wachowski will appear mid-fight, look at the camera, and say "We fucking give up, too!" and cheerfully give us the middle finger.
Cue Rage Against The Machine"
anyone who can do better ?
bellJul 24, 2003 at 10:59AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
This is what will happen at the end (lol)
"I predict that Matrix Revolutions will be 150 minutes long.
it is safe to say that revolutions will throw us a curve ball much like reloaded did. after watching m1 we thought we knew what the matrix was. we watch m2, we didnt know what the matrix was. now after much debate we think we have an idea what its all about. but it would not supprise me if we way of the mark. as you say Zen master siddarta, their will be so much fresh data to take ion it could go any where, and will no doubt. have you seen the pic's of m3 yet pretty good, i would not be supprissed if sentinals started chasing neo and co in the matrix...
Siddarta GouthamaJul 24, 2003 at 11:12AM
Yep, I've seen them and I can't wait till November to see the whole show.
As you say, making a distillation of the Kottke threads will bring up constructive ideas of what we have been watching and discussing all the time. But the bro's can bring in so many new elements.
Hey let them to their thing, and let us just enjoy watching it and philosophizing over it. It keeps challenging our minds...
bellJul 24, 2003 at 11:38AM
good news matrix reloaded comes out 3 weeks before revolutions hits the cinema, though i doubt the w's will add a commentary just yet (the w's probably have not deciphered reloaded yet!!!!!).
not sure if this thread will last untill revolutions is released? i think the water hole is almost dried up.
for any one who looked at the new m3 pic's, the pic with smith is alarming, it is safe to assume the power he has attained at this point has driven him 'joker style' insane...
bellJul 24, 2003 at 11:40AM
good news matrix reloaded comes out 3 weeks before revolutions hits the cinema, though i doubt the w's will add a commentary just yet (the w's probably have not deciphered reloaded yet!!!!!).
not sure if this thread will last untill revolutions is released? i think the water hole is almost dried up.
for any one who looked at the new m3 pic's, the pic with smith is alarming, it is safe to assume the power he has attained at this point has driven him 'joker style' insane...
bellJul 24, 2003 at 12:10PM
Oracle in Revolutions, as well) states that a "special child" who will "change the world" is the child of two programs similar to herself
the child must be neo! though who are the parents of the child?
i think the parents are either:
1) the architect and persophone (zeus/persophone/hades triangle, would this make neo hercules/herakles? - half human/half god - half human/half machine?
2) the architect and trinity (think oedipus) which for many reasons i think this would be the most interesting and challenging, and could elevate matrix trilogy even further.
3) merv and persophone (very doubtfull) as merv is the one who decieved the oracle to allow the happy couple of programs to have the child. and steal the oracles termination key in the process.
GhostJul 24, 2003 at 4:33PM
"An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."
Hmmm...... Father, Mother? Could that meen somthing?
SajjmanJul 24, 2003 at 11:19PM
hmmm 12 chairs in the first council chamber ..... any points on the number ? This has been discussed before but now we know for sure .... how many "were" the diciples ? :)
Siddarta GouthamaJul 25, 2003 at 2:41AM
I think indeed that this thread will have ended before "revolutions" hits us. The only thing that I would like to see happen is a list of facts that we now for sure, a list of links and references to all kinds of religions and human philosophical visions, a list of things we don't know yet or that we not fully understand yet. And for the latter, a list of the different hyptoheses that are currently running (goofy or not). In a couple of posts we would than have a nice overview of everything and, to my mind, one of the better insights and analyses on these 2 Matrix films, that are available on the web.
Sajjman, Jesus Christ had 12 disciples, indeed. The 2 matrix films have tons of hidden links to religions, life perspectives, philosophy etc.
lofty (Adam Lofstedt)Jul 25, 2003 at 6:09AM
Thought I'd throw this out...
I'm getting married this weekend :), and part of the Jewish ceremony includes the Seven Brachot (Wedding Blessings). During the rehearsal, one of the blessings struck me:
"May the barren (land) rejoice and be glad when its children are gathered back to it in joy. Blessed art thou, Lord our God, who makes Zion rejoice in her children."
ctm3Jul 25, 2003 at 4:46PM
Lofty..
The Matrix clearly has you now. :-D
Spoon BoyJul 25, 2003 at 7:51PM
It's only a matter of time before Lofty'll be thinking to himself:
Why didn't I take the BLUE pill? :)
ChazdorJul 27, 2003 at 9:54PM
If you're skeptical of Persephone actually being the mother of the matrix, analyze what I've come up with and judge for yourself (If someone else mentioned this, sorry, I just saw Reloaded):
Persephone longs for 'love.' In her dialogue to Neo, she says, "You love her, she loves you. A long time ago I knew what that felt like. I want to sample it."
Later, the architect describes the mother of the matrix as, "an intuitive program," with a "lesser mind."
What ties this altogether is a definition from the first film; the Oracle defines being in love: "Being the One is just like being in love, no one can tell you that you're in love, 'you just know it.' " That also happens to be the definition of 'Intuition,' 'the power of attaining to direct knowledge without evident rational thought.' Emotion, such as love, obviously does not require rational thought and is seen by the Architect as an attribute of a 'lesser' mind.
Damn I love this movie.
For those that believe that Trinity is the mother, you may be right, remember, the Oracle does mention that newer programs are written to replace older ones. Trinity may very well be the sixth version of the role, but rather than sampling all humans to change the Matrix, she only samples Neo, which could possibly be the reason behind Neo's superpowers. Persephone's kiss may be the reason behind Neo's division between mind and body....
Cheers!
Chazdor
bellJul 28, 2003 at 9:16AM
lofty says:
Lord our God, who makes Zion rejoice in her children."
zion is smack bang in the middle east (iraq i think). zion also happens to be where 01 is in the second renaissance animatrix. congrats to u and wife.
siddarta says:
a list of links and references to all kinds of religions and human philosophical visions
will draw up themes and perspectives of m2, though may take some time! (its like being back at uni!)
chazdor says:
Persephone longs for 'love.' In her dialogue to Neo, she says, "You love her, she loves you. A long time ago I knew what that felt like. I want to sample it."
i think at this point persophone is testing the bond between neo and trinity, when she kisses neo. (i think persophone could well be the mother, though i thimk it would make for a greater tragedy if trinity was). persophone is testing how strong the bond is, will neo die for trin/will neo choose the left door in order to save trin instead of the right door and reset the matrix. as ive said before on this thread, this is important information for the architect, as version 6's destiny and fate if you will depends on neo's bond with trinity. Trinity is neo's achillies heal, with regards to the architect manipulating neo.
bellJul 28, 2003 at 10:12AM
sajjman says:
hmmm 12 chairs in the first council chamber ..... any points on the number ?
im still not convinced that the council members are not the 23. i have seen m2 a fair few times and here are one or two points that niggle me:
1). all the council are of a certain age. (all the same age/generation)
2). we never have one conclusive shot of the table that the council members are sat. a) do we only see half the table b). who is to say there arent 23 sat at the table. (the w's could be teasing us with the possibility that the 23 are the council but hold back just enough to not make that assumption stick).
3). if there arent 23 at the table, who is to say those sat at the table arent still part of the 23.
...one other thing, when neo rescues the key maker from merv, the keymakers first words to neo are 'ive been expecting you', even though the keymaker is captive, he know's that he was meant to be a prisoner of merv, in order to be rescued at that point and that place. i assume that the architect once again had created this situation.
beza1e1Jul 28, 2003 at 10:13AM
I found this discussion just today,
A question to you before i join it: Do you want to predict Revolutions or do you want to explain what the Matrix is?
1. case, we would have to find errors (Links "Superman") and figure out how the rest would end into a spectacular finale.
2. case, we can discuss until Revolutions how Link got knowledge of Superman (perhaps some exiles told him?)
Quick: I don't believe in the Matrix-in-the-Matrix-stuff, it would be too obvious for the story. Smith is just a buggy program in my eyes. I have no personal solution for the Mother.
bellJul 28, 2003 at 11:21AM
beza1e1 says:
I found this discussion just today,
A question to you before i join it: Do you want to predict Revolutions or do you want to explain what the Matrix is?
both, as only by understanding the nature of the mature can any predictions take place.
though i predict that m3 will be as enlightening as m2 was. in that we only know half the story. i belief neo is in a coma due to the fact he is re-tuning if you like to zion, because of his continued development and after his meeting with the architect, neo will realise that zion is part of the matrix. The coma could be a result of information overload/evolutionary jump whatever.
bellJul 28, 2003 at 11:26AM
beza1e1 says:
2. case, we can discuss until Revolutions how Link got knowledge of Superman (perhaps some exiles told him?)
earlier on this thread we discussed the superman comment that link make's. if you read this thread (1130 post's, ypu would be hard pushed to read all of them, you will get the general gist of the ongoing discussions.
bellJul 28, 2003 at 11:54AM
even better m3 pics
bellJul 28, 2003 at 12:23PM
even better pics and quick time trailer of m3 for those who have not finished 'enter the matrix yet' the look of the film is more m1 than m2, as a fan of film noir, it looks great... http://home.accglobal.net/~707727/video/
matrixrevolutions.mpeg
beza1e1Jul 28, 2003 at 1:39PM
I read this thread (without the 931 before) as a whole.
Some thoughts about Smith:
I see him as a program running amok, like Merv, the Twins, etc., which are not longer under control of the Matrix (Architect). No wonder if you think in strong logical ways. Your job is to kill the One. You do it (m1). He kills you. Now you fullfilled your job and you failed at the same time! No wonder a program freaks out.
He may be an important key to fight the Matrix. The Architect watches for anomalies, like Neo and studies them. Then he extinguishs the problems and reloads the Matrix with an update, which fixes this anomalies.
As time goes by only the stronger anomalies are undetected by the more and more perfect Matrix. This explains why Zion lived longer each timespan. But there come more and more amok programs like the Merv and Smith (Smith is really dangerous because he overtakes more and more parts of the Matrix, like a virus/worm).
Do you remember Jurassic Park and its chaos theories. Minor changes can cause huge fluctuations and these get bigger each iteration until the whole system/Matrix becomes just chaos. Anarchy and (you guess it:) Revolution!
These are my thoughts. Some fresh ideas in here ;)
Spoon BoyJul 28, 2003 at 2:16PM
bell says:
im still not convinced that the council members are not the 23.
who is to say those sat at the table arent still part of the 23.
If you believe that the council members are of the "original" 23, then you must also believe that the fifth Neo chose Door 1. You also must believe that by doing this, he:
1. Reloaded the Matrix, exterminating the (fifth) population of Zion.
2. Selectively pulled 23 pod bodies out of the Matrix in order to repopulate Zion.
We know from M2 that there are approximately 250,000 people in Zion @ this point. To believe that the council members are of the original 23 forefathers of the sixth iteration, you must believe that they're a couple thousand years old. You must also believe that the 23 members have witnessed, with their own eyes, two different iterations of Neo; the fifth Neo who originally rescued them, and the sixth Neo that Morpheus' team pulled out.
>>
Some thoughts about Smith:
I see him as a program running amok, like Merv, the Twins, etc., which are not longer under control of the Matrix
Exactly. An intelligent program independently running amok. Like Merv, the Twins, Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, Cypher, Tank, Du Jour, the squids, and so on.
"A.I.: A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines."
It astounds me that so many people aren't finding this obvious by now.
ctm3Jul 28, 2003 at 2:39PM
"2). we never have one conclusive shot of the table that the council members are sat."
If you look at the quicktime VR's of the chamber, you can see the exact number of chairs they used for the shot.
Smith sure looks different in that scene of him laughing. In fact I didn't think it was him when I first saw the M3 trailer. Perhaps it was just because he never laughs.
AlienJul 29, 2003 at 4:10AM
What is the general opinion of this thread about how Neo stopped the sentinels
Spoon BoyJul 29, 2003 at 11:18AM
Alien says:
What is the general opinion of this thread about how Neo stopped the sentinels
Some folks feel Neo's "powers" have become so robust that they've extended beyond the Matrix into the "real world", and that he how has "superphysical" powers.
Others have connected it to the fact that the EMP was activated "too early", as described in the last couple scenes of M2. People go a couple ways with this; some feel Neo is the one who *activated* the EMP, while others suspect he (being a program) may have been *affected* by it and is consequently in a "coma" because of it.
The people who lean towards one of the variations of the "Matrix-in-a-Matrix" suspect that the "real world" is not what we thought it was, and therefore there are no "real sentinels" to stop. They find this scene a strong indication that Neo is still in some sort of simulated reality, and has never really left.
Most people, including those in the above three groups, correctly admit that they don't know for sure.
NeuromancerJul 29, 2003 at 12:14PM
Just a couple of quick thoughts here:
I read the entire thread... wow, amazing stuff you guys put forth. I guess I should pay closer attention to movies because I didn't see 90% of the stuff you all have pointed out over the course a couple months. However, I've only seen the movie once :-).
Personally, I'd be disappointed if M3 ended with Neo waking up at his computer screening and then realizing his apartement # was 110. No amount of clever binary code would make me happy if this were the case.
One point I'd like to bring up is that in the video game Enter the Matrix, Persephone demands a kiss from Ghost just in the way she demanded a kiss from Neo. Presumably she also demands a kiss from Niobe (might have to play just to see that... Monica Bellucci is a goddess, anyone seen the movie "Malena"?). With Persephone demanding kisses from people besides Neo, does that change her theororized role in the trilogy?
GhostJul 29, 2003 at 12:48PM
I think that because this matrix is dependent on the human emotion love, the programs in it (like Persephone) may be fascinated by it. She could be an information-gathering program that is testing the emotion to further the machines understanding. This was discussed in the old thread with the theory of the machines needing agency if I remember correct. It still remains one of the more interesting theories I’ve heard. The machines truly don't understand emotion and how it controls human thought and decision making. It posses a problem to them and they must understand it. Just like the Terminator talking to John Connor about why we cry. Or like Data trying to figure out why people make the decisions they do based on it.
beza1e1Jul 29, 2003 at 1:20PM
I agree, Persephones motive seems to be information gathering. But for whom? She "belongs" to the Merovingian, so she may be a wild program like he is or she is a kind of agent for the Matrix, what gives room for much more conspiracy theories...
For those who watched the movies several times yet. The EMP at the end, does it come from Neo, from any direction or was it just there suddenly?
I am not content with a superpower Neo in the rael world neither with a matrix-in-the-matrix. Perhaps another ship or person has just arrived and made the EMP?
btw what happend to Niobe at the end? Her ship got blasted and she died? My memories leave me in this point. Is the dialog between Niobe and (?) in the revolutions trailer (at start and end) from the movie or just a gimmick?
GhostJul 29, 2003 at 1:32PM
One theory that was not mentioned is that the Tech made an alternative reality just for Neo because he took the wrong door. He could have uploaded the program to fool Neo into believing whatever the Tech would like to input.......??? Not very likely but it is still just like the MwM theory - except the new matrix is one that just Neo is in, alone.
GhostJul 29, 2003 at 1:36PM
That just goes to show that the W's have stranded us on a deserted island. The possibilities are endless as to what direction they will go now. And it's eating me alive!!!!!
GhostJul 29, 2003 at 1:38PM
As far a Niobe and Ghost they are well and alive. Play the game. Or read the thread.
NeuromancerJul 29, 2003 at 1:57PM
Niobe and Ghost are both alive, but lost somewhere in uncharted territory in the sewers (pipes? access routes?) around Zion. Their ship is down. So they're pretty much stuck.
ctm3Jul 29, 2003 at 4:00PM
Personally I don't think it was a ship that EMP'd the squiddies just because of how Neo seems to have a realization that he can stop them. He stops , looks puzzled, walks back and puts his hand up. I don't think they would show that otherwise.
AlienJul 29, 2003 at 4:23PM
It wasnt an EMP, ctm3. Your right. Dont feel like explaining why right now cuz im all weirded out on Vikadin. IF anyone wants to know, ill explain.
SajjmanJul 29, 2003 at 9:21PM
If the 12 council members would infact represent the diciples of jesus , who is jesus then ? In this matrix case ..... I cant find anything else that connects to the number 12 in a religous aspect.
sci-fi-manJul 30, 2003 at 1:17AM
Injury/Death Matrix vs Real:
It's totally reasonable that in-matrix injuries/death carry over to the 'real' world:
Ever seen frog muscles artificially contracted by external stimulation hock from a 9-volt battery? Ever feel how much stronger adrenaline makes you? Ever hear a weight-training coach tell you that un-balanced muscle exertion can lead to injury?
If the matrix electronically sends your brain a trigger to induce a huge point-source muscular contraction, and to pump a huge burst of adrenaline into your body simultaneously, then it's easy to see how the mis-managed brain could cause very-real injury. If the matrix sends supressing signals to the portions of the brain that control breating, you cant override the electrical impulse until it is removed. The heart will beat on its own, for a while, but without oxygen you're toast in minutes. And who knows, maybe the 'death' event in the matrix is accompanied by sending high-voltage through the wires to your real brain, frying it!
sci-fi-manJul 30, 2003 at 1:21AM
Anomalies-be-gone!!:
2) Anomalies should not persist from one Maxtrix version to the next...
Ever program up a routine designed to approximate the solution to an equation that can't be numerically solved directly? Such programs iterate, and with each iteration two types of error typically arise, 'known' error, contained in an 'error term', which may grow or shrink with each iteration, and 'unknown' error that creeps into the results from things like unpredicted computer decimal truncation in approximating numbers like one-third, and from the loss of significant digits that occurs if your program does your math in the wrong order. If you don't know how to code so that successive iterations will reduce both types of error, then as the program iterates on and on, you can watch the unknown error slowly turn your perfect sine curves, for example, into jagged mountain peaks jumping off the chart!
When the results blow up, a common approach is to stop the program at the last fairly good results, and examine the now really uncacceptably large anomany, chuck it out, and re-start the program from the new location. Nice smooth curves again, until the anomalies build up again. Examining the anomaly allows one to tweak the code a bit to try to make it take longer for the errors to get out of hand next time. But one is always wary of unknown (but likely) error creeping in and multiplying out of control and turning your program into crap.
The most reasonable Matrix scenario is that With each reload of the matrix, all the misbehaving code gets dumped: the One, the rogues, the out-of-control Smiths, etc. The Architect undoubtedly tries to learn from the anomalies, so as to refine the code so it'll run longer each time. Why wouldn't it? Why do any of you have reason to think that any of these subroutines running inside the matrix would live on through a re-load that's specifically designed to get rid of anomalies? Hmm?
sci-fi-manJul 30, 2003 at 1:24AM
Somebody help me out - I just don't get it!!
I'm having a huge problem with the proposed sensory interface between the real-world human and the matrix experience. When you're plugged into the matrix, the matrix software sends electrical signals through the wires to your brain, triggering the same sensory neruons that would ordinarily respond to the 5 senses. It's still external stimuli, but it bypasses one step, your actual eyes, etc. So what's the deal with the mechanism by which the magic phone-call brings you "out of" the matrix so you can use your real senses on the ship?
It ought to just be a slow or buffered disconnect so that your neurons get a smooth voltage transition with no big spikes. How does that allow an instance of Smith to "upload" into a human mind and persist without external power? This one's just not reasonable at all if the Real world is really real. Once the human is unplugged, the Smith software has no more contact to the human's neurons. If the Smith instance IS somehow able to reprogram the human mind and take over, then this further supports that the "real" world is just another onion-skin matrix. Trouble is, I can't tell if it's an oversight by the W brothers, or if it is intentional. I guess the last movie will tell... But I still don't get the phone-call thing at all. Anyone help me out?
Scott HillisJul 30, 2003 at 2:43AM
Someone up above (I can't find the specific post now!) posted an observation that, in "The Matrix", when Neo is about to get in the car with Trinity and Switch, the graffiti on the wall behind him says "tank is wrong".
Then, when Neo meets Tank later, Tank says, "Me and my brother Dozer, we are 100 percent pure, old-fashioned home-grown human. Born free. Right here in the *real* world".
But Tank has another statement just after that that the graffiti could refer to. When he mentions Zion and Neo asks if it's a city, Tank says, "The last human city. The only place we have left." Intriguing, no? Could there be another settlement of humans that we don't know about yet?
Tank has another interesting line later, when he is taking Neo through the combat training. Morpheus comes up and asks how it's going, and Tank says, "Twelve hours straight. He's a machine."
Scott HillisJul 30, 2003 at 2:47AM
A couple other random items of possible interest:
-- In "The Animatrix", in "Second Renaissance Part I", the
narrator says something like "...humanity was the architect of
its own destruction", with a distinctive emphasis on "the
architect".
-- In "Second Renaissance Part I" the name of the robot who was
the first to rebel against his human masters was "B1-66ER", which
looks like "BIGGER". (This shows the usefulness of watching stuff
with the subtitles turned on!)
-- What is the significance of the Twins? Why make them twins? In
Greek mythology Castor and Pollux were twin sons of Zeus, and
were members of the Argonauts that sought the Golden Fleece. They
are most commonly known through the zodiac sign Gemini.
According to astrology.com, Geminis are affiliated with the
"air" element and the "mutable" quality. Gemini also rules the
"Third House", which is the "House of Communication". Here is an
interesting excerpt from the site:
"Harnessing our intelligence and sharing it effectively
with others is the essence of the Third House. How do
we best state our case with others, often those we love
the most? Will our actions be true to our environment,
and our planet, for all time? This brings to the fore
emerging forms of intelligence-gathering, such as
computers."
-- The name of the ship in "Last Flight of the Osiris" refers to
the Egyptian god of the dead. If the "Osiris" is a ship of Zion
(the underground city), does this foreshadow the fall of Zion?
GhostJul 30, 2003 at 10:15AM
sci-fi-man says:
“Why do any of you have reason to think that any of these subroutines running inside the matrix would live on through a re-load that's specifically designed to get rid of anomalies? Hmm?”
Hmm….. Well what makes you think they are “anomalies” at all? Because the Oracle said they were? The Oracle is a machine. Believing her would be your quintessential human delusion. All of what happens in the matrix is planned and executed with the utmost perfection to get Neo to his final destination. This includes the actions of the "rouge programs.”
If you believe the Oracle then remember that she said those programs go into "hiding within the matrix.” She also says, "Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing.” Assimilating is the key word.
sci-fi-man says:
So what's the deal with the mechanism by which the magic phone-call brings you "out of" the matrix so you can use your real senses on the ship?
I don’t think that it’s necessary to use the phones to get out. I think it’s more of a convenience. Not everyone has used the phone to get out of the matrix. Popper in the Animatrix self substantiated himself out. This is because he believed the matrix wasn’t real, so he could. Just like Neo believed that the Matrix wasn’t real so he then could not be killed in it. The others lack the total belief therefore must use the exits presented.
As far as Smith…. As I said earlier a program can be loaded into an individuals mind. You said that Tank said "Twelve hours straight. He's a machine." That’s because Tank was loading programs into him. The ships are broadcasting a pirate signal. Are you saying that if you use a wireless modem someone can’t load a virus into your system? So why couldn’t a program like smith take over a mind on the ship that is connected to the Matrix?
On the flip side i also think that it is possible that a mind can leave the body behind and exist in the matrix seperate from the "Physical Mind" as a program.
Just a thought..... I used self substantiated correct. Right?
SajjmanJul 30, 2003 at 10:55AM
Scott Hillis
that stuff you wrote there was very nice and fresh , gj man ;)
Scott Hillis says:
A couple other random items of possible interest:
-- In "Second Renaissance Part I" the name of the robot who was
the first to rebel against his human masters was "B1-66ER", which
looks like "BIGGER". (This shows the usefulness of watching stuff
with the subtitles turned on!)
bigger hmm .... i think you're very right that it's supposed to be read as BIGGER but , what is bigger ? Or what is it that will become bigger? Does it refer to the machines ? in the aspect of the control they will get over humanity?
Spoon BoyJul 30, 2003 at 11:33AM
sci-fi man says:
When the results blow up, a common approach is to stop the program at the last fairly good results, and examine the now really uncacceptably large anomany, chuck it out, and re-start the program from the new location. Nice smooth curves again, until the anomalies build up again. Examining the anomaly allows one to tweak the code a bit to try to make it take longer for the errors to get out of hand next time. But one is always wary of unknown (but likely) error creeping in and multiplying out of control and turning your program into crap.
I like this guy!
I'm having a huge problem with the proposed sensory interface between the real-world human and the matrix experience.
I know what you mean. If Zion is supposed to be the real world, then there are two main issues I have a problem with, which we've discussed in this thread. They are:
1. Self Image
One of the things about The Matrix that I wrestled with since the 1999 was the idea of "self image". The story's concept of "self image" states that your "Matrix identity" matches your "physical identity". In other words, if the Matrix's Tom Anderson had brown hair, brown eyes, and a mole on his forehead, then the Zion Neo would too. When Neo came out of the pod, it struck me as a problem that he'd be able to look @ his face in the mirror on the Neb and recognize that face in the mirror as the familiar Tom Anderson he'd seen in the mirror all his life in the Matrix. It didn't bother me so much *how* the machines engineered the "self image" to match the physical characteristics of the "pod body" (i.e. maybe they had built-in scanners in the pods or some other convenient explanation.) What really struck me as weird was *why* the machines would care about matching a human mind's "self image" to its physical pod flesh, especially if 99.9% of the folks wouldn't live to see their pod flesh anyway.
2. The Two Timelines
I've wrestled with the idea of the two timelines for years (i.e. the "Matrix timeline", based on 1999 U.S.A. culture, and the "real world" timeline, which supposedly puts us @ about 2199).
You must ask, does the Matrix world occur in "real time" when compared to the "real world" timeline?
If The Matrix as we see it in TM1 takes place in what *looks* like 1999 U.S.A., but @ the same time has *existed* for 200 years (on the real world calendar), then does this mean that The Matrix, when booted 200 years ago, started in what appeared to be 1799 U.S.A.? Did it have a 19th century? Civil War? Hitler? Bellbottoms? Or has it for the last 200 years been sort of "suspended" in a static and unchanging 1999-ish state?
Did Tom Anderson have a great-grandfather in the Matrix? Did his great-grandfather live his life in the Matrix thinking it was early 20th century? Before computers? Don't stop there. Tell me what young Tom Anderson learned in history class.
The Matrix timeline is apparently in real time when compared to the real world (i.e. You go into the Matrix for an hour, and you've sat in your dentist chair for an hour. The real-time conversations between the jacked and Link/Tank prove this). Since this is the case, I'd like to hear from you what you think it was like in the Matrix, say, 100 years ago. From the perspective of the people in it. Also, upon the fifth reload, where in time did it start?
The only thing that makes sense in all this is that there are no biological humans. The population of Zion is a component of the larger system, necessary to keep it running. Trying to imagine the "beginning" of Zion is as senseless as trying to imagine our planet "before" it started spinning. i.e. Who gave the Earth it's first shove into its eternal spin? It's a good question, but it's pointless to devote mental energy trying to understand it. For all practical purposes, as far as we're concerned, the Earth has been spinning since its inception. In a similar sense, Zion has *always* been populated since its inception.
My guess is that this is the wavelength the bros W are on with regards to the timeline in this story.
Nothing else jives.
GhostJul 30, 2003 at 12:44PM
The one explanation that works is that the people within the matrix are so dependent on the system - and believe in it so much that they never question why nothing has changed during their lifetime. It could be that all the elders in the matrix (above a certain age) are simply programs designed to certify the beliefs that people have about the past. Therefore the program could stay as a perpetual 20th century environment for quite along time.
The youth wouldn't remember most of their childhood. What they did remember would be implanted memories. Adults would blindly believe that the world they live in is what it is, and never questions how it got that way. The old folks would be taken out prematurely and replaced with programs. No one could be over the age of say 40.
sci-fi-manJul 30, 2003 at 1:45PM
Gost's comment... As far as Smith…. As I said earlier a program can be loaded into an individuals mind. You said that Tank said "Twelve hours straight. He's a machine." That’s because Tank was loading programs into him. The ships are broadcasting a pirate signal. Are you saying that if you use a wireless modem someone can’t load a virus into your system? So why couldn’t a program like smith take over a mind on the ship that is connected to the Matrix? really hits the nub of the interface question.
Does the human body (brain) simply interface with the matrix, like we do now with VR using goggles and headsets only the wires go a little further and actually touch our neurons, bypassing the sensory organs themselves? Or alternatively, does the human mind somehow run matrix software chemically or the matrix runs human mind 'software', with the mind uploading or downloading into the matrix or vice versa?
The interface method makes sense to me, the upload/download method is utterly beyond anything I can even begin to comprehend, or even imagine, without a lot more persuasive illustration (anybody want to try?). So, assuming the interface method, how does the training program work, wherein a mind seemsto "uploads" complex subject matter in a very short time span?
On the other hand, if the consensus is that the mind/matrix extperience involves one running in/on the other, then please share some possible mechanisms for how in the heck that might work. There is no mention anywhere in the movie(s) story that suggests that the matrix somehow programs or controls human thought, only that it presents a sensory illusion that the human can choose to accept or deny, and adjusts that illusion in real time as the human responds to what it perceives.
As for Smith virus-like taking over another entity, this analogy works fine for me if smith is taking over another software entity. But the human mind disconnected from the matrix no longer supports the matrix eperience or 'runs' matrix software except as memory. How the smith could persist in a mind no longer 'jacked' in except as a bad memory of a bad trip, that I need help with. Otherwise, when people 'wake up' to the real world, the matrix ought to keep running in their minds and they really wouldn't wake up at all. They'd still believe they were in the matrix experience.
Siddarta GouthamaJul 31, 2003 at 5:54AM
Glad to see there's so many fresh incoming to this thread.
Sci-fi-man:As for Smith virus-like taking over another entity
Smith takes over another software entity works fine indeed. The persistence of Smith if the person is disconnected can be explained by a higher dimension of the bad memory of a bad trip you alluded to.
If you look at it, then everything we register from our experiences, origins from electrical pulses into our neurons via nerve synapses etc. Memory is stored in a same way, perhaps in a biochemical/electrochemical configuration. Smith could have been uploading so much information into the brains that they're a. toast (and the person dies) or b. gain schizofrenic aspects.
Of course in the latter case, Smith can maintain himself as he has uploaded himself in the schizofrenic part of the brains. It is known from clinical studies that schizofrenic have a certain area in their brains that is much more active whereas other parts are suppressed.
Voila, there you have your possible explanation for the persistence of Smith. It's not just a bad memory, it is a memory that keeps chasing you during your life if you're not correctly treated for it.
beza1e1Jul 31, 2003 at 6:31AM
Have you read:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0553.html?printable=1
Programming humans is an old topic. There are many stories about militaries trying this. For eample through Hypnosis you can influence the subconsciousness of other people, so why should this be possible mich faster and more efficient if you have direct wire-access?
I like sci-fi-mans talk about the errors, but i think it is somehow more complex, because you can't simply reload everything. There are people in the Matrix, which must be care for every second. No time to reboot.
I like this Neo-only-Matrix-theory, but why did he loose his consciousness? Why is he on a table with near Bane? Nevertheless Neos quote "Something is different. I can feel them now", points to something like this.
Siddarta GouthamaJul 31, 2003 at 7:03AM
what do you mean with Neo-only-Matrix-theory?
beza1e1Jul 31, 2003 at 8:13AM
The theory about a Construct which simulates a reality just for Neo. He entered it after choosing the door. The Architect made a reality for Neo to better research the anomaly.
KurzweilAI has more interesting articles:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html
?main=/meme/memelist.html?m%3D6
Do you think the Matrix will have an happy end or an open end?
I think Neo and Smith will become the key figures. They act as two counterparts, like Yin and Yang. The Good and the Evil. They are more the same as they think, since Neo has parts of Smith and vice versa after Neo blasted Smith in m1. Perhaps Trinity joins this team in the last second and fulfills her name-given fate to complete the holy trinity. What a threesome. The human, the machine and the ... uhm ... sidekick?
Currently i am looking for some arguments to back up the theory. First idea:
Why should Neo and Smith fight all the time, if Smith can replicate himself infinite times and Neo can fly away? The burly-brawl. The door-corridors before the Architect. The duell in the trailer.
beza1e1Jul 31, 2003 at 8:17AM
I found another thing:
Morpheus(Matrix1): "in the early 21st century, all of mankind united and marveled at our magnificence as we gave birth to AI, a singular construction that spawned an entire race of machines."
But acording to the Zion Archives (Animatrix) B1-66ER was random accident, a criminal. The humanity never liked the AI or 01.
Siddarta GouthamaJul 31, 2003 at 9:41AM
Beza1e1,
no I don't believe in the Neo only Matrix theory. It is plausible, the interaction with Morph' and Trin' and the plot with the Sentinels etc. could be programmed (especially since everything which we've seen thus far could be AI), but it seems to much of a complex development. That would mean that we are looking at three levels : 1. matrix 2. zionists 3. Neo-matrix. Too damn complicated for the gross of the Matrix viewers. The W bro's wouldn't get away with it.
I am 100 % sure and I truly hope that the matrix will have an open end, and it won't be a happy end. Neo and Smith will indeed be key figures. Trinity is important but not as the holy Trinity in this concept. Trin' is just the holy Trinity in the configuration Morph', Neo and Trin'.
Why do Neo and Smith have to fight all the time?
Excellent question. It seems that Smith starts the whole thing and is pissed off or superenthusiastic about his powers... whatever.
The very true essence of them fighting all the time is not completely clear to me. It doesn't contribute to anything ( at least not in Reloaded)
Siddarta GouthamaJul 31, 2003 at 10:05AM
I have been thinking the whole time about the gold or yellowish appearance of Seraph in Reloaded. Why does he look so different from the other green programs that are all over the matrix?
The films don't let us see it that often, but up till now, golden appearances were present in:
TM1:
1. When the Neb' is lifting up the newborn Neo from the sewers, there is a golden heart on Neo's chest.
2. exactly right after Smith is blown up by Neo, Neo is completely surrounded by a golden aura.
TMR:
3. Seraph is completely in gold in 'Neo-style-vision'.
4. The female orgasm is in gold in 'Neo-style-vision'.
What if ... I just throw this in the group... what if typically human aspects (emotions, strong feelings, appearances etc. are appearing in a yellowish colour).
Thus, turn it all upside down. Everything, everything is program... except the Oracle, Seraph, the architect perhaps (to bad we don't see Neo vision all the time), Neo perhaps, programs that are reaching the level of human emotions...
The whole plot of the Matrix could be one Giant Turing Test as discussed previously. Humans are at the monitor looking at AI developing itself for building a matrix that allows a more efficient self-improvementt process.
At least we can say that the appearance of Trin' and Seraph is completely different, one is program the other not, ...which one of the 2 ? Hmmm...
Maybe I got myself a little bit too carried away. Again, I thought I'd just throw this in the group.
Scott HillisJul 31, 2003 at 11:02AM
Just saw the movie for the second time tonight. The whole thing gelled a lot more having read and re-read transcripts of key conversations. I also watched it with an eye on details like graffiti, numbers and names. Here are couple minor observations.
1. Just before the Burly Brawl, graffiti on one of the walls says "ONE". A few minutes later in the thick of the fighting, it says "ONEONE". Not sure what to make of that. Is it a statement of the obvious, or is it a hint that we shouldn't believe the Architect's assertion that there have been five previous Ones?
2. When Smith chases down Bane and the other poor bastard in the Matrix, Bane faces him and says, "Oh God". Smith replies, "Smith will suffice." That indicates to me that Smith has developed serious megalomania and in fact seeks total domination over the Matrix.
MORE
GhostJul 31, 2003 at 11:45AM
beza1e1 says:
"Why should Neo and Smith fight all the time, if Smith can replicate himself infinite times and Neo can fly away? The burly-brawl. The door-corridors before the Architect. The duell in the trailer."
I'm starting to think that there has to be a "Alpha Smith". The Smith that started the rest and is controlling them all. I think the duel in the trailer shows Neo fighting the One True Smith.
Lets say Smith can take over the mind of an individual by passing electric signals from one nerve cell to the next - this would cause chemical signals at the synapses. The imprinting of this Smith Program is cause from the strengthening of the chemical signaling at the synapses and the changing and forming of several different molecules.
Also what's to say that all humans born into the matrix don't have a chip hardwired into their brains that is accessed when the probe is inserted?
But anyway that copy of the Smith program would be different then the original program in my opinion. So I think that there is an Alpha Smith that controls the rest or at least lets the rest do his bidding. I think that the Smith Alpha program is currently residing in the mind of Bain. It would only make ironic sense.....
beza1e1Jul 31, 2003 at 11:45AM
This golden aura is interesting. Why isn't Trinity (or her heart at least) golden, when Neo revives her? Or do we just see it in skeleton-view??
Perhaps the golden things are code-pieces, which don't belong to the real (lol) Matrix. The seraph is an amok program, the orgasm is produced by the Merovingian, Smiths blast was made by Neo und the golden heart (hu? have to watch it again) could be the red pill.
I think it would be a bad move from the W's, if the Architect is just lying.
ctm3Jul 31, 2003 at 2:58PM
Perhaps Seraph was the previous "ONE" before Neo. As they both are gold and he is able to fight Neo one on one without trouble.
scottJul 31, 2003 at 3:23PM
Here's something I hadn't considered before:
If the Matrix within a Matrix theory is correct, where does that root-level matrix exist? Is there a "real world" at all? If so, do you think we'll see it in Revolutions? If not, what's the philosophical implication -- maybe like asking "What's outside the universe?"
What if Revolutions ends with the massive battle, Neo & Co. win, and their victory gains them passage to the REAL real world? (Perhaps it even looks like Disneyland on a crisp spring morning...)
GhostJul 31, 2003 at 5:10PM
When Neo saw the Merv's building he said the code looked different. I assume that is because the building was written in the older version of the Matrix, so the code that was used was different.....
So mabey the gold code is from Programs that were written in an older matrix. Mabey the first One?
So when Smith is blown up by Neo, Neo is completely surrounded by a golden aura because the ONE program is uploaded into him. And that program is as old aas the matrix.
Seraph is completely in gold in 'Neo-style-vision' because he is a old program from the begining.
The female orgasm is in gold in 'Neo-style-vision' becasue the Merv is one of the oldest programs and he wrote it.
Works dosn't it......
Scott HillisJul 31, 2003 at 9:14PM
COntinuing a couple observations from my second viewing of the movie (I got cut off last night by my locally cached system of control, otherwise known as a wife):
3. Niobe's ship is called "Logos" after the Greek concept of a universal revelatory force. Stoics believed that every human was part of a universal community and logos acted as sort of the moral compass. Christians later adopted the idea to cover universal salvation (this according to a PBS Web site). I doubt there is a broader significance in terms of the impact on the story, but it just shows again the efforts the filmmakers have put in to emphasize certain themes.
4. When Trinity hacks the power plant near the end, one of the codes visible on screen is "Z10N0101". You see "101" appear several times in the movie, from Neo's apartment number in the first movie, to the highway route in "Reloaded".
5. At one point some agents come across Neo and refer to him as "the anomoly". I remember watching that scene last night and going, "Ah, so Neo really is the anomoly and not Smith", but now I am wondering if I remembered that correctly and if Smith wasn't in that scene as well and the agent's comments could have referred to him instead of Neo. Anyone else remember?
Scott HillisJul 31, 2003 at 9:39PM
As to why Smith and Neo keep fighting, in their first meeting after the Oracle scene, Neo begins by fighting a handful of Smiths, and is doing quite well. He is testing the limits of his abilities, and when the 100 pile on him, he finally realizes the odds are too great. Later in the hallway he is just trying to protect the Keymaker and Morpheus. As soon as the Keymaker opens the door, he grabs Morpheus and jets through, he doesn't hang around to get his ass kicked.
Even after my second viewing I don't have a firm theory of what is going on. There are a couple signs that support the Matrix within a Matrix theory, such as Neo stopping the sentinels, his Trinity dream appearing on the screens of the architect, the reappearance of the spoon. But that would require disregarding the Architect's version of events as well as much of the background given in the Animatrix.
My guess is by the end of "Reloaded" Neo has somehow maintained a connection to the Matrix despite being unjacked. He is able to disable the sentinels through a command issued via the Matrix. The Architect, who undoubtedly has root-level priveleges in the Matrix, may be able to see the dreams and physical states of those jacked in since the Matrix link essentially opens a window into the human mind.
I think we have to take the idea of a man-machine war at face value, but what has happened since the first humans were driven underground is totally up in the air. Is Zion being totally controlled like a puppet, or does it retain a certain measure of choice? Is there a larger purpose that Zion is driving towards? I think there is definitely some sort of man-machine reconcilliation or merging coming up in "Revolutions", but whether this in fact the true purpose of the Matrix that has taken six iterations to get right or a side effect of the sixth version doing something unexpected, i.e. Neo opting to save Trinity, I'm not sure.
So here is my WASG (wild-ass scientific guess), based on what we know and a couple of obscure clues. We know the Oracle believes the only path to the future is for humans and machines to work together. Neo has "made a believer" out of her, meaning he has managed to master the Matrix and alter his consciousness to such a degree that the Oracle for the first time really believes her vision is possible. In the first movie, the graffiti that says "tank is wrong" refers to his statement that Zion is the last human city, the only place they have left. There is in fact another human enclave, much smaller than Zion, that has been working secretly with the Oracle and other friendly renegade machines, to achieve a sort of ultimate man-machine synthesis. This synthesis is unexpectedly playing itself out in two characters, Neo, who will serve as an example to liberate both man and machines, and Smith, who wants to use his heightened awareness or powers or whatever to dominate and control.
Sorry for the long post. It just sort of got out of, um, control.
SajjmanJul 31, 2003 at 11:35PM
Scott Hillis , i just have to say that u always suceed in finding bitch ass good and fress details that are essential in this discussion. hats up for u.
Now another thing :
Scott hillis says :
4. When Trinity hacks the power plant near the end, one of the codes visible on screen is "Z10N0101". You see "101" appear several times in the movie, from Neo's apartment number in the first movie, to the highway route in "Reloaded".
Its the code that interests me.
"Z10N0101" . At first i couldnt figure out why there was an extra 0 after Z10N, it just seemed insymetric. But then it struck me.
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
Dont know if im overanalytic but maybe its a hint that there is N0 Z10N and its just a 101 effect (someshit about Orwells book 1984 or something 101 beeing a dreamstate room) .
Scott HillisAug 01, 2003 at 2:41AM
Sajjman, thanks for the kind comments. That's one of the delightfully frustruating things about these movies, huh? You never know if something is in there as a sly reference or interesting sidenote, or if it will end up being crucial to the entire series.
Siddarta GouthamaAug 01, 2003 at 3:19AM
Scott,
I noticed you had a lot of questions after your second viewing of TMR. If you have not done so already, I recommend you looking at the old thread in which we had almost 1000 posts. It takes you 12 whole hours, but it's fun, you'll discover so many new things and interesting viewings of these awesome movies. Things as the spoon, the architect, the Z1ON0101 (especially the theory around 0101 is fun) and other stuff from your post are covered in it.
For what it's worth, we're all stuck with our uncertainty and can only focus our thoughts a little bit by our joint efforts to analyze, study and hypothesize so many aspects that make these films so rich and great.
Does anyone else have some more thoughts on the gold code? Is it relevant?
Siddarta GouthamaAug 01, 2003 at 3:28AM
Oh, some details on the ships. When Neo and Trin' come out of the elevator in Zion, there's hundreds of people welcoming him as a Messiah.
One of the women asks for her son's protection (I forgot his name) but he served on the Icarus.
It is this Icarus that is blown up and the crew dies.
Of all the ships that exist, TMR gives a prayer for protection of the Icarus, that later is destroyed. Is this relevant information? Of course Neo cannot protect everyone, but is it relevant that specifically this ship is mentioned and later is destroyed. Is Neo lacking power (this may also be overanalytical)
beza1e1Aug 01, 2003 at 7:28AM
I think the golden glow is only really important with the seraph, because on other occasions it may be only to focus on special things within the green code. The seraph however is different. Too bad we never see Neo in matrix-view.
Another human resistance? Where/When does Matriculated (animatrix) play? Was it another Zion or is it at the same time as Neo?
If you read Z10N as Zion, then 101 must be lol ?!
Another thing about the EMPing of the Squiddies. In Enter the Matrix a friend told me, if you choose Niobe, you fly the Logos in the end. Chased by 200 Squiddies, down a unknown tunnel, where the ship crashes. Niobe survives and ask herself, wether the others will ever find her. The important thing: The rest of squiddies (ca. 50) just fall down, as if EMPed. This is just a thing a friend told me, so i am not sure. Can anybody else prove it?
SajjmanAug 01, 2003 at 7:41AM
beza1e1 :
yeah its true u do fly the Logos in the end of the game and they're chased by 1001300400140 (alot of) squiddies and u'r supposed to shoot them down but if my i dont missremember you do charge off an EMP that makes the ship immobile and the squiddies fall down , hence they being stuck in the tunnelsystems. But remember , EMP's do effect the ship from which its uncharged .
Siddarta GouthamaAug 01, 2003 at 8:02AM
Actually, we do see Neo in Neo-style-vision, this is when he bends over Trin', sticking his hand in her chest and getting the bullet out of her or heart massaging her.
I don't think that Neo is here in golden code, but the digital blood that you see stream through Trin's veins is yellowish. Of course, this could only be yellow/gold to actually make it visible what Neo was doin' there.
Siddarta GouthamaAug 01, 2003 at 8:20AM
I like the idea of another human enclave by the way. Not that it's right, I just like it, and the council may be well aware of this.
The least that you can say is that the council knows more than the other zionists (maybe the female councelor is the mother of the matrix) as she is the only person of importance (other than the oracle) and of the same age as the architect throughout the movie.
I hope the W bro's will explain everything scene by scene, but I 'm sure they won't. The Trilogy would loose it's mythical properties. If everything is known by their explanation, the Trilogy will not be discussed that much anymore in the future. Let's face it, the W bro's have tried to grasp the history books of filmography, they are currently succeeding and I hope they won't let go.
This awsome thread would never exist anyway and bleed to death if everything was already known, wouldn't it?
It's as with humanity. We study, we investigate, we explore, we try to reach and to surpass boundaries, because the world as we see it is only partially comprehensable. If everything was clear and well known in our lives, the tendency for investigating it would be much less.
I hope for the Wachowki's sake that they have realized this and for me personally, do not need to explain one of the best films and trilogies ever made. (Amen ;-) )
beza1e1Aug 01, 2003 at 9:25AM
Perhaps they will release a special behind-the-scenes-and-background-story-book-plus-dvd-of-all-three-movies-special-edition for some thousands of dollars in limited edition. Where most details are explained, otherwise we will get some books on this topic from other authors. This way the myth will last for some years more.
But appearance does not show the age of a machine. We know that Persephone is very old, perhaps even as old as the Architect, but her looks don suffer from this ;)
bellAug 01, 2003 at 9:33AM
spoonboy says: We know from M2 that there are approximately 250,000 people in Zion @ this point. To believe that the council members are of the original 23 forefathers of the sixth iteration, you must believe that they're a couple thousand years old.
not neccessarily as i believe zion to be in the matrix, one assumes that not all in zion are humans, if any.
With Persephone demanding kisses from people besides Neo, does that change her theororized role in the trilogy?
persophones role does not change, the kiss is a test of sorts she uses on the charactors you have mentioned.
how Neo seems to have a realization that he can stop them. He stops , looks puzzled, walks back and puts his hand up. I don't think they would show that otherwise.
neo looks puzzled as you say, as he has become aware of zions true nature(still in the matrix). perhaps due to a smal evolutionary step, or his meeting with the architect, or perhaps he was programmed to react in this manner at this time (architect design).
But acording to the Zion Archives (Animatrix) B1-66ER was random accident, a criminal. The humanity never liked the AI or 01.
one would assume if zion was in the matrix the archive would be a lie and complete fabrication, designed to make the zionites believe they are in the real world.
siddarta says:Why does he look so different from the other green programs that are all over the matrix?
this in down to neo and the fact he is evolving, perhaps previous to this point he was still unable to determine programs from avatars.
This golden aura is interesting. Why isn't Trinity (or her heart at least) golden, when Neo revives her? Or do we just see it in skeleton-view??
neo and trin appear in matrix code much the same as the agents.
1)they are all programs (neo and trin)
2)they are all avatars (neo and trin and agents etc)
3)this is determined by neo's ability to see. what if trin was a program and neo could see this, but as he did not want to see or believe this he prevents himself from doing so. also it is safe to assume that all neo see's is controlled by the architect in any case. The architect allowed neo to see seraph as a program, as this realisation on neo's part is just the next step towars meeting the architect.
bellAug 01, 2003 at 9:51AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Oh, some details on the ships. When Neo and Trin' come out of the elevator in Zion, there's hundreds of people welcoming him as a Messiah.
to me this seen was more about neo dependacy on trinity for emotional support. and was emphaseing the bond which the architect later takes advantage of.
Too bad we never see Neo in matrix-view.
we do when he restarts trinity's heart at the end.
siddarta says:It's as with humanity. We study, we investigate, we explore, we try to reach and to surpass boundaries, because the world as we see it is only partially comprehensable.
too right mate, we are obligated to ourselves to make the unknown known, i think this thread strives in that direction.
GhostAug 01, 2003 at 12:19PM
After M3 and the discussion following this will be the biggest thread on the net, guaranteed. It should be archived in the Z10N mainframe.
GhostAug 01, 2003 at 1:10PM
ctm3 says:
FYI Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene. I'll have to check that out
Has anyone checked that out yet? As to what the numbers on the door stand for?????
Spoon BoyAug 01, 2003 at 2:09PM
scott says:
If the Matrix within a Matrix theory is correct, where does that root-level matrix exist? Is there a "real world" at all?
Great point. This is one reason I don't think the "onion skin" variation of the "matrix-in-matrix" theory is anything special, as it only leaves everything conveniently open for sequels. And we can be fairly confident that the W's never intended more than three installments. This onion skin thing has been done before with "dream within a dream within a dream" types of stuff. Summing the whole Matrix trilogy up into an onion skin model would only leave us asking for Matrix 4, which would feel cheap IMO.
scott hillis says:
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
I like it! Fits right into the W bros' palindromic/anagrammic style. I like it! Where were you two months ago??? :)
Dont know if im overanalytic
The moment you question your overanalyticalness is the moment you're thinking too hard. ;)
SajjmanAug 01, 2003 at 10:30PM
Spoon Boy says:
scott hillis says:
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
EHUM MATE , i have to take credit for that once since i was the founder of that theory ;) read a couple comments up and u'll se it, i just made a bad BOLDTEXT on his name :/ my bad .
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
Dont know if im overanalytic but maybe its a hint that there is N0 Z10N and its just a 101 effect (someshit about Orwells book 1984 or something 101 beeing a dreamstate room) .
» by Sajjman on July 31, 2003 at 11:35:38 ET
jimAug 02, 2003 at 10:10AM
wow this is still going@!
beza1e1Aug 03, 2003 at 6:02AM
In Animatrix Detective Story. The detective has 201 written on his door.
The heroine in Program has "highscores on everything". Perhaps she was a former One?
Does Matriculated show another human resistance or a former Zion?
Siddarta GouthamaAug 04, 2003 at 7:01AM
Speaking of the detective story, there's a contradiction in that episode, or at least something that is not completely clear.
Did Morpheus hire the detective or were it the Agents?
If you listen carefully to the telephone voice in the beginning, then it sounds like Morpheus, who offers the PI a job.
Trin' also says something about a difference between a trap or a test, alluding to the fact that it was all a test for the PI.
But then at the moment that things start rolling in the train compartment, you here the detective say:"They hired me to get to you, didn't they".
This is an allusion to the agents who were after him.
Which one of the 2 is correct? Is it just a misconception of the PI? I guess so. Thus it really was a test from Morpheus to see whether he was capable of doin' or not.
One important questions for you Americans out here. Do you guys have a special symbol for the court law and jurisdiction in the US? Would this be the eagle with a skull in it's claws and a 'quadrifolium' (I don't know the english translation, but it's like 4 leafs at 1 stem).
The reason I ask is that in the 2nd renaiss. I you see this eagle symbol at the court process of B166ER. It reminded me of the eagle you have with the arrows etc. (e pluribus unum), but I just found it strange to see that kind of court law symbol in the Animatrix.
Siddarta GouthamaAug 04, 2003 at 7:02AM
Ooops, sorry for the double post
GhostAug 04, 2003 at 9:41AM
I'm starting to notice something strange regarding the Agents in the two movies. Has anyone else noticed the fact they only morph into people at the moment the individual sees a rebel? At first I thought that it was just because the agents warped into the nearest human program. But I noticed a few occasions where the agents didn't know where they were and they still warped in. Example is in the subway, when Trin and Neo are about to call out @ then end of M1. The Bum sees the two and then changes into Smith who shoots the phone and stops Neo from leaving.
Now the reason I say anything is because I’m starting to think that when a person in the Matrix sees something strange, unbelievable, or out of the ordinary the agent programs pick up on the signal and they warp in. Watch it again + Tell me if you’re with me.
But I still have one big question.. In M1 when Neo meets the team under the bridge, Why didn't Neo morph into an agent? I know Trin had the gun to his head. I think mabey the bug was placed to track them and then trap em, and the Agents might have thought it was still in em.
RalphyAug 04, 2003 at 9:59AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet...
In the latest game industry previews for The Matrix Online (MMORPG) the W brothers have said that the game will be a continuation of the story following Revolutions. They want players to build the story further by interacting within the virtual (umm...) Matrix.
It's typical game industry rhetoric, but (more interestingly) also implies that the Matrix will still exist at the end of Revolutions.
bellAug 04, 2003 at 11:06AM
Ghost says:
I'm starting to notice something strange regarding the Agents in the two movies
ive picked up on that myself,one would assume that as you say as soon as an avatar see's the primary targets, the agents morph in, so to speak. m2 illustates the advance stage of this, in which smith can do multipul morph's. this leads me to a question that hasd bugged me, when smith has multiplied to say 100 or 1000 smiths. obviously humans, if there are humans rigged up to the matrix sim, all have blank screens so to speak, no stimulea is been fed into there brains, when smith takes their avators. in m2 they state that in the last 6 months, more humans have been freed than ever before, right? maybe neo did not free all these people, but they were discarded by the matrix because of smith taking over all the avators.
ghost says:
But I still have one big question.. In M1 when Neo meets the team under the bridge, Why didn't Neo morph into an agent?
simply because neo is the one, and the architect knows he is the one/anomaly it would seem inappropriate to capture trin and co at this point, as neo has yet to fullfill his role of:
1)realise the true reality of the world he inhabits
2)die and become the one
3)meet the architect and realise everything he has been told (by morpheous/ oracle etc) is an even bigger deception
4)be manipulated by the architect further and save trin (who is not even real anyway) instead of doing what the previous five versions of himself did and go through the other door(the arhcitect wants a different outcome this time).
and perhaps at this point even though he is jacked in he cant be taken over by an agent(on the assumption that zion is real), and also if zion is in the matrix it is irrelevant because even when freed, neo is still under control to a certain degree. someone said that neo may be the only human, im starting to sway in that direction, or perhaps there arent any humans in the entire story, its only our own human arrogance that suggest's there should be humans in the matrix, matriculated could be hinting at the true nature of the matrix, perhaps all machines are hooked up and wish to live as humans, but are unable to in the real world so link up to the matrix to live out there human wish fantasies. its feasable, as it is the reverse of how we project ourselve's in vr/playstation2 games whatever for 12hrs plus pretending to be machines/ the rebel alliance/lara croft etc.
bellAug 04, 2003 at 11:15AM
(someshit about Orwells book 1984 or something 101 beeing a dreamstate room) .
room 101 is where people realsied there darkest fears, as a form of punishment for not conforming to the system (remeber john hurt having his face nawed away by starving rats). me thinks that perhaps there is no link between matrix and 1984 room 101's, and 101 simply refer's to 5 or 6 if you count 0000.
bellAug 04, 2003 at 12:20PM
did the keymaker get erased in versions 1 - 5? if version 7 does kick in presumably there would be backup files of keymaker/ oracle etc if they were previously destroyed? and wanted to be used again by the architect in version 7.
Spoon BoyAug 04, 2003 at 12:34PM
bell says:
did the keymaker get erased in versions 1 - 5? if version 7 does kick in presumably there would be backup files of keymaker/ oracle etc if they were previously destroyed? and wanted to be used again by the architect in version 7.
You can think of the Keymaker, and all the other programs for that matter, as an iteration of itself running in RAM. A program which is opened and running in RAM will lose all unsaved changes once you reboot the computer. Upon reboot, the programs launch again and start over from the beginning, effectively forgetting what they were doing before the reboot.
GhostAug 04, 2003 at 2:02PM
Hey i can't wrap my noodle around this... Can anybody shed some light??
WachowskiBros: "There's something uniquely interesting about Buddhism and mathematics, particularly about quantum physics, and where they meet. That has fascinated us for a long time.."
ctm3Aug 04, 2003 at 2:45PM
More to think about thanks Ghost...
Buddhism has a lot to do with human consiousness, causality, and how our own thinking gives meaning to our world. (hmm sounds like the matrix to me). Quantum theory shows the universe and all of its inherent bits and pieces only exists because there is human mind to validate it and make it so.
I did some research on AI and came up with this.. (speaking of strong AI where human thoughts can be reduced to algorithms)..
"Computationalism is thus diametrically opposed to Buddhist philosophy, which regards the subtle mind (that which survives death and goes on to the next life) as a fundamental aspect of reality, not an emergent or epiphenomenon of matter. Buddhism views a sentient being human or animal and its mind as a totally different kind of thing from a machine or automaton. "
intriguing indeed
ctm3Aug 04, 2003 at 4:10PM
Ralphy,
Yes I've seen the pre-alpha-tech demo (say that 3 times fast) of the game and yes the demonstrator, who was tight lipped about what remaining characters from the trilogy will be featured in the game, did say that the game starts following Matrix 3, where "characters have just taken the red pill" and are realizing they are not in the matrix anymore, and that players will shape their own world in the multiplayer environment. So...seems the matrix survives but people may have a choice to be in it in the end.
Game looks pretty cool, you can play Persephone I believe. :)
Spoon BoyAug 04, 2003 at 4:17PM
Put yourself in Neo's shoes for the moment, and imagine the following, from his perspective:
1. You go to work, get a phone call from Morpheus, get busted by Agents for whatever reason, and they put a mechanical bug into your navel, taking your mouth away in the process.
2. You wake up in bed. It's nighttime. You feel for your mouth, and it's there. That whole bug thing must've been a dream.
3. You immediately get a phone call from Morpheus inviting you to meet his people under the bridge. You agree. Upon meeting them, Trinity takes the bug out of your navel, proving to you that what you had thought was a dream was actually your own reality.
Question #1: How did you get into bed?
Question #2: If you woke up thinking the bug was a dream, what is it exactly that you believe happened that day in the office?
Question #2: How much time has elapsed between the Agents planting the bug in your navel, and the bridge meeting? Was it the same day?
Bake on...
Siddarta GouthamaAug 04, 2003 at 4:22PM
Concerning Ghost's questions on the Agent warp in Neo thing:
Ghost said:when a person in the Matrix sees something strange...+ Tell me if you’re with me
I couldn't agree more. That's the way they locate them.
Why didn't Neo morph into an agent
Trin' to the detective: "there's a difference between a test and a trap"
This goes also for Neo. The huge test for Neo is that he has to stay calm in all circumstances. Neo accepts what he sees, because he expects every moment to wake up. Neo considers Trin' and Morph' still as part of his world, why would he think differently? The rebels are prudent indeed, but Neo manages to keep himself under control.
Oh and by the way, the agents weren't specifically after Trin' and Neo,
they were after Morpheus. The agents waited for Neo to meet Morpheus and then to warp in. But 1. Trin' had already removed the bug (explosive device is a good explanation, tracking device is redundant). 2. They didn't know when Neo actually met Morpheus, as Neo stayed too calm. The Agents as sentying programs can sense strange observations by hooked up people, but they can't actually read people's thoughts. They have to know for sure that they can warp in without being killed. By the way, I don't think they have a second chance to warp in the same body. Everytime they exited a body in the MAtrix and Reloaded, they were killed or the people were killed. So they didn't warp into Neo, because they didn't sense him being in Morph's proximity and they don't have a second chance for doing it.
And finally, by the time that Neo started to freak out on the mirror thing, he already had taken the red pill and his input/output location was disturbed.
GhostAug 04, 2003 at 5:49PM
Genius on the theory about the agents. It works perfect because if Neo didn't have the abilities of the One then the agents would have sensed Neo being with the rebels. Smith would warp in + he would have been shot. Process of elimination I guess?
I still need more info on How Buddhism links to Mathematics?. The W's said that link is the basis behind thier movies.
But roll this around. Could someone leave the matrix threw the use of meditation? Much like the Animatrix "World Record" and "Kids story" mixed. Mabey that's what happened to Spoon Boy. He concentrated so hard that he freed his mind?
Spoon BoyAug 04, 2003 at 6:24PM
Ghost says:
I still need more info on How Buddhism links to Mathematics?. The W's said that link is the basis behind thier movies.
Upon reviewing your first post with their quote, I see that the W's have said:
"There's something uniquely interesting about Buddhism and mathematics, particularly about quantum physics, and where they meet. That has fascinated us for a long time.."
Turning our attention to the definition of quantum physics:
quantum physics: The branch of physics that uses quantum theory to describe and predict the properties of a physical system.
That said, to help you out with your brainstorm, I'll point out that they're not necessarily speaking of of "Buddhism linking to Mathematics", but rather the unclear line that separates the two. From their quote, the real interest lies in @ the junction of the physical world (quantum physics) with the non-physical (Buddhist philosophy).
Maybe that's what happened to Spoon Boy. He concentrated so hard that he freed his mind?
Exaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaactly. :)
kaviAug 04, 2003 at 10:23PM
no offense, but some of you ppl have extracted this movie (that wasn't really that great, the first was sooo much better) that it is much worse than it was to beging with. sorry.
Siddarta GouthamaAug 05, 2003 at 2:22AM
Kavi,
the first was great, the second was more attractive for "le grand public" but the plot development in conjunction with the first matrix is much much greater than the first matrix as such. But no offense taken at all, we're just here to understand it.
Spoon boy and Ghost on quantum physics:
I already mentioned this quantum stuff on July 14th, and I come to think of the existence of quantum computers. Quantum computers have another logistic. It is not binary as in 0 or 1, but you can have different possibilities between 0 and 1. This is the specific characteristic of quantum computer technology. In the matrix this would mean that different possibilities are happening at the same time.
If I'm not mistaking, someone already mentioned this in the 931 thread.
I should look it up.
Spoon boy thought so hard that he freed his mind?
OK fair enough, quite a mind job to do it. But than you must also escape your pod, or you must get out of the sewer system, without any help of the rebels, with a body (eyes etc.) that you've never used before.
I wonder how that went...
beza1e1Aug 05, 2003 at 5:32AM
That must be exactly the problem, Popper had. Without the red pill and the tracking devices of the Nebuchadnezzar. How did they find him after he self-substantiated?
Didn't the Merovingian tell, he is older than the current iteration of the Matrix? So i can't be deleted by a reboot. Linked with the fact, that Link lost the rebels, when they entered his house/castle, this leads to the assumption, that the Merovingians home is not part of the Matrix, but a external node or something. Similar to the backdoor corridor.
As far as i know quantum computers are several atoms, which can have 5 different values (0,1,...) at once. Understanding this is hard, using it even harder. Thats the problem today. We have to develop a new kind of mathematics to create algorithms for quantum computers.
GhostAug 05, 2003 at 10:00AM
What do you think is closer to the tech used by the machines Quantom computers or Organic Computers?
bellAug 05, 2003 at 10:49AM
bezale1 says: that Link lost the rebels, when they entered his house/castle, this leads to the assumption, that the Merovingians home is not part of the Matrix,
merovingians chateu is in the matrix, link just had to have time to track where neo and co were, down to the fact that using the keys took them great distances within the matrix.
i practice zen meditation as well as many other forms of meditation, budihism's role is that of enlightenment and learning or should i say realising the true nature of reality. the w's want us to take this on board, say when u see a wasp ones immediate reaction may be to swat it, though zen teaches us to truly see the wonderment of this life form, its genius of being.
siddarta says: Spoon boy thought so hard that he freed his mind?
spoon boy attained a higher state of consciousness and awareness then he was able to substantiate, i dont believe he freed his mind, but he was able to recognise the vail of deception that was pulled over them, this film is spirituality vs materialism on many levels. those who are still unaware of the matrix are materialist's/consumerists. those who have become aware of the matrix(which is basically becoming aware of brainwashing through tv/advertising etc) look elsewhere to define themselves as human beings, this inevitabaly leads to looking within ones self for answers and not relying souly on the external as a means of defining ones self. w's are asking the audience to recognise spirituality attained through zen, philosphophy and then onto quatum physics/mathmatics as a means of understanding the nature of reality and the universe, and discover ones place within it, which is basically the journey neo is taking.
spoonboy says:Question #1: How did you get into bed?
Question #2: If you woke up thinking the bug was a dream, what is it exactly that you believe happened that day in the office?
notabaly neo seems to be always asleep before he realises the nature of the matrix, as neo in hi sleep state is searching.
Geddes and Grosset, define ‘searching’ in Dictionary of Dreams as…
…Dreams of searching might indicate some loss in waking life, a loved one, perhaps, or ones childhood. Alternatively, it can indicate a search for a new path in life, that is a new start. To dream of searching, but not finding, may show either that what is lost forever or that the dreamer has the apprehension about finding what he or she is looking for…
Thessalonians: The First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians (King James Bible) states…
…But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that day should overtake you as a thief…Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of the darkness…
Sleep and darkness suggest that Neo is spiritually dead, in scripture ‘sleep’ and ‘darkness’ are used to describe a lost person, or someone who has become wayward from the right path.
Geddes and Grosset, define ‘darkness’ in Dictionary of Dreams as…
…The darkness represents the unknown and also what is depressing or even feared. However, where the darkness is dreamt of in association with feelings of warmth and comfort, it may be symbolic of a time before birth and the safety of he womb…
bellAug 05, 2003 at 11:48AM
i get the feeling that this thread will also be archived at some stage, and perhaps revolutions will generate another 2000 thread discussion.
bellAug 05, 2003 at 12:05PM
i think someone asked what 9:18 and 9/18 signified earlier in the thread, it is andy w's wifes birthday.
bellAug 05, 2003 at 12:09PM
WachowskiBros: The mirror is actually a mirror. When Neo sees it it's a hallucination, but it's the direct result of the pill Morpheus had given Neo. Reflections in general are a significant theme in the film. The ideas of worlds within worlds. The idea of the reflection, the two Neo's in Morpheus glasses represents the two lives that Neo is leading. In the left lens, we see the blue pill and Thomas Anderson, and in the right lens, we see the red pill and Neo.
bellAug 05, 2003 at 12:57PM
the w's are exploring notions of duality, and multi layerd realities.
quatum physics takes mathematics further beyond finite possibility to infinite possibility. as the w's state:- WachowskiBros: The idea of the reflection, the two Neos in Morpheus' glasses, is that this represents the two lives Neo is leading. In the left lens, we see the blue pill and Thomas Anderson, and in the right lens, we see the red pill and Neo.
bellAug 05, 2003 at 1:02PM
sorry 2 posts deja vue, must be a glitch in the matrix, they must be changing something, preparing myself for the micro wave signals to the brain. the secret world government still uses micro wave signalling as a form of control, dont they? (:
GhostAug 05, 2003 at 1:13PM
Did anyone else relate the crash of the chopper @ the end of M1 to the attack on 9/11. I kindof saw it as a parallel.
I personally saw the red blue scene as a cross roads. So to me the reflections represented the two realities to come not the two lives he lived. He could take the blue or the red, each leading him to a different future:-)
Spoon BoyAug 05, 2003 at 1:50PM
Reflections in general are a significant theme in the film.
Indeed. Straight out of Alice's Looking Glass. Not only visual reflections, but thematic reflections as well (i.e. the Neo/Smith dualism). Particularly cool are the W's use of palindromes (i.e. 20:05 in "A Detective's Story", etc.)
perhaps revolutions will generate another 2000 thread discussion
Let's keep things consistent and make it 2005. :)
Another thing. Not sure if we covered this, but there are no less than two references to Adam in the first two films:
1. "Meet me @ the Adams Street Bridge."
2. "One Adam Twelve..."
Plenty room for analysis there.
GhostAug 05, 2003 at 5:02PM
Aright here are some more thoughts on the Adam and Eve thing. Lets suppose Merv represents Adam and Persophone represents Eve. What cool evidence do we have to support this?
1. They are un-doutably a couple of sorts. Just like Adam + Eve.
2. They are supposed to be the oldest Programs in the Matrix. Just like Adam + E.
3. The real life Merv's claimed to be direct descendents of Christ. A+E were direct descendants of god.
4. Merv and Persophone were kicked out of the matrix and now are rouge programs. A+E were kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
5. Merv and Persophone have two servants that work for them named CAIN and ABLE. A+E have two sons named CAIN + ABLE.
6. It is believed that because Cain killed Able god punished him by turning him into a vampire.
There seems to be an abundance of Vampires surrounding them in the Matrix. And the Cain and Able of the matrix may even be Vampires. (Suggested by the silver bullets killing them).
What do ya think?
GhostAug 05, 2003 at 5:32PM
I was sufing the web and came across this. B166ER" looks like "BIGGER":
Bigger was the name of a black character in contreversial, 1940's book, "Native Son." In the book Bigger Thomas is working for a white family (like a robot would for a human one), and accidently kills the white daughter through self preservation like B166ER
Make sure youu check out this site: http://www.matrixfans.net/symbolism/names.html
They go threw all the Names from the movie and game.
Spoon BoyAug 05, 2003 at 6:02PM
Re: Adam and Eve, Merv and Persephone, and that Neo guy,
Back to that topic of consumption, note the similarities between Eve persuading Adam to consume the forbidden fruit, and Persephone persuading Neo to consume the lipstick.
I suppose it could be argued that Merv does not symbolize Adam, but rather the serpent.
Cool names page btw. Tank and Dozer = Earth Machines. Nice. Here's another good one, although I haven't confirmed it:
Smith's license plate: IS 5416
Isaiah 54:16 - Behold, I have created the smith who blows the coals in the fire, who brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the spoiler to destroy.
SajjmanAug 05, 2003 at 11:18PM
OMG stuff is really falling in place. Ghost that stuff about Merv and Pers beeing Adam and Eve sounds very very good, nice job. In the game Enter The Matrix you do fight alot of vampires in the the Mervs mansion.
Spoon boy , that one was fucking unbeliveble , the licence plate thingie, excellent job but a question, were did you get the licenceplate number? Which scene does smith drive a car? I apparently forgotten ;D
SajjmanAug 05, 2003 at 11:49PM
Nebuchadnezzar - King of Babylon:
Daniel 2-5. He has a dream and wants it interpreted, but he can't remember what it was! Daniel tells him his dream and interprets it for him
What did morpheus say when they had to abandon the Nebb ? Anyone that can quote that ?
Siddarta GouthamaAug 06, 2003 at 2:52AM
I hope you will enjoy this post folks...
What did morpheus say when they had to abandon the Nebb ? Anyone that can quote that ?
Morph said: "I have dreamt a dream but now this dream has gone from me".
This is what king Nebuchadnezzar said more or less to the prophet Daniel, who was called by king Neb's servants to interpret the dreams.
This is the interpretation: the people of Israel had all forgotten about God (or Jahweh in Hebrew) who had actually helped the israelites to take over Zion (Jerusalem) and install there the earthly kingdom of God with the Israelites as the children of God (the Zionists). Now the Israelites were not grateful anymore to God, they didn't worship him anymore since everything in there life was OK (makes me think about our current materialistic society).
God had a good plan: he sent some dreams to king Nebuchadnezzar from Babylonia. Once king Neb' would understand these dreams, it would become clear that king Neb' had to invade Israel and take over Zion to learn the Israelites a lesson and to make them alert again and make them think about God again.
I recommend you read this chapter from the bible
king Neb tells his dream about a statue with iron and bronze body parts and appearances etc... to the prophet Daniel.
Basically, Daniel says the following: that king Neb will take action (alluding to his later invasion of Zion) and become one of the greatest kings ever. After his kingdom a second, a third and a fourth kingdom will be installed but they are all temporarily.
And now comes my favorite part: after this fourth kingdom a new and final kingdom will be installed, one that is eternal, one that will never be destroyed, one that will never vanish. Daniel is one of the very important prophets who prophesies the coming of the Messiah, or if you like it The One, or indeed, Jesus, Son of Man, (in greek "man" is "Andros" or otherwise Anderson. In Matrix terms Thomas Anderson!!!).
This is not all!!
Begin counting: the initial Israelites in Zion are the first, king Neb, is the second, there comes a third, a fourth and fifth.
And then finally, the sixth kingdom is the eternal one, the coming of The One, the Messiah.
OH MY GOD!!! Freaking good references and details, isn't it? The W bro's keep surprising me.
Holding this in mind, I'm starting to believe that there were previous Ones who indeed took the right door and that we are indeed in the sixth iteration of the MAtrix.
I hope you liked this... :)
Siddarta GouthamaAug 06, 2003 at 3:59AM
If you drive this further.
LAter in the book of Daniel, it becomes clear that King Neb' is so proud of himself, he is rich, he has everything... he has power... and than he gets insane... or if you want it... "out of control".
Now if king Neb would be the first One and Merv' would also be the first One (I mentioned earlier in the 931 thread about Merv's restaurant "Le vraie" meaning "The True One" in French or "The One" in the French matrix) than there is a good resemblence. Perhaps both of them invaded Zion once and than went insane from there power or in Merv's case some kind of rogue program.
I'm not sure. Anyhow, I like the link with biblical Nebuchadnezzar
Siddarta GouthamaAug 06, 2003 at 6:02AM
Spoon boy, where did you get the license plate nr. from. Was it at the beginning of Reloaded right before the "it happened as before" discussion between Smith & Smith ?
I know in the MAtrix 1 his tag reads 70858. Interesting catch though on the Isaiah chapter.
bellAug 06, 2003 at 9:59AM
siddarta says:OH MY GOD!!! Freaking good references and details, isn't it? The W bro's keep surprising me.
Holding this in mind, I'm starting to believe that there were previous Ones who indeed took the right door and that we are indeed in the sixth iteration of the MAtrix.
impressive research though i think we should not be suprised as all the signs are there, the w's have borrowed from so much we may never find every parrallel that they use. but this certainly suggests that what the architect says is true. therefore MwM must also be true. question - does it mention how long the previous kingdoms lasted?
bellAug 06, 2003 at 10:09AM
spoonboy says:1. "Meet me @ the Adams Street Bridge."
2. "One Adam Twelve..."
one would assume a connection with adam and eve, all the place names in m1 are places in chicago the w's, where the w's were born.
i still see merv as hades more so than adam, though he could be both admittedly. persophonne was married to zeus, bore the 3 furries(3 agents) with zeus. then hades captured here, persophone, lived in the underworld(old matrix) with hades for six months, then returned to the surface creating spring and summer. I think most charactors are an amalgamation of all great literiture and religous icons. neo is the hero of a thousand faces.
GhostAug 06, 2003 at 10:30AM
Does anyone remember the instructions for meeting Merv for the first time? I think the time and the floor# may have significance but i can't recall exactly what the directions were.
bellAug 06, 2003 at 10:34AM
there are parrellels with norse mythology also- neo/balder and smith/loki(personification of all evil), architect/odin(creator of the world) and trinity or persophone/frig mother of balder. loki instigated the death of balder only for balder to return and fight loki and his armies of evil at ragnorak(end of the world) to gain supremacy of heaven.
http://kids.infoplease.lycos.com/ipka/A0197623.html
bellAug 06, 2003 at 10:40AM
all i rember about merv meeting is that the floor is 101 the same no. as neo's appartment. i think the oracle hand neo instructions and says meet at this time this place.
bellAug 06, 2003 at 11:22AM
Andy (not Wachowski): When trinity jumps off the building at the start and flies through the window and ends up at the bottom of the stairs looking up, the way the window is broken is like a clock face pointing to 3 o clock, or Trinity...
that level of detail is what impressess me about this film, great website ghost.
http://www.matrixfans.net/symbolism/names.html ghost.
SajjmanAug 06, 2003 at 1:56PM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
And now comes my favorite part: after this fourth kingdom a new and final kingdom will be installed, one that is eternal, one that will never be destroyed, one that will never vanish.
Doesnt this mean that the eternal kingdom is the fifth ? Or did u just write the wrong number and ment that , after the FIFTH kingdom came a sixth one that was eternal and did not vanish ? In that case it would imply that this iteration of the matrix will not be the end of all?
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Now if king Neb would be the first One and Merv' would also be the first One...
There is a paradox in that since merv does say that he survived Neo's five other predecessors impliying that he is not a part of the 6 One's ? But that thing about his Restaurant meaning "The True One" makes me very confused, anyone that can confirm this ? Btw a really cool thing from the name page ->
Choi and Dujour :
The goth couple who come to buy software from Neo. DuJour is French for "Of the day." Choi... choir? - he did say "Hallelujah." ;) Choice? To go out or stay home, to unplug or not?
"Choix du jour" = "Choice of the day" or "Offer of the day."
Spoon BoyAug 06, 2003 at 1:59PM
Siddarta, re: Isaiah and the license plate,
Wasn't my observation. I read it here:
http://www.matrixfans.net/symbolism/names.html
I haven't confirmed the passage nor the scene, but I would imagine the observer pulled the plate # from either the freeway chase scene in Reloaded, or opening scenes of M1 (in front of Trin's motel and/or the garbage truck @ the phone booth?) If anybody can confirm this, please do.
On another note, you may (or may not) be pleasantly surprised that our thread is showing up 7th @ google on a search for "the matrix reloaded".
SajjmanAug 06, 2003 at 2:24PM
Hmm anyone who understands which epoch of time Detective's Story is in? It seems very odd kinda like the 60ties with hight tech stuff ? very weird dont get it really. But it's a very interesting episode if u consider the whole chess thingie i read about in the name page.
GhostAug 06, 2003 at 3:37PM
And the thread is showing up #1 on Google for "Matrix Reloaded discussion" now that's impressive.
GhostAug 06, 2003 at 3:53PM
Hey what exactly does that mean? That we are the authority on the subject?
Old_GobboAug 06, 2003 at 6:53PM
Hmm anyone who understands which epoch of time Detective's Story is in? It seems very odd kinda like the 60ties with hight tech stuff ? very weird dont get it really. But it's a very interesting episode if u consider the whole chess thingie i read about in the name page.
Sajjman, the commentary on the Animatrix DVD says that when making the animations they (each of the designers/creators) went for their own personal look, while at the same time trying to keep a sort of universality about the time frame that they all take place in. IE it looks like the 60's just because whoever made it felt like giving it that sort of feel.
btw, this is in reference to what Bell was talking about w/ the oracle and her intructions on how to meet the Merv
she gives him (Neo) a peice of paper and says something similar to "Be there.. at that EXACT time and place, and you'll find him"
Spoon BoyAug 06, 2003 at 7:05PM
Hey what exactly does that mean? That we are the authority on the subject?
Not sure if authority has anything to do with it, but if this isn't a Matrix Reloaded discussion, there's no such thing!
ctm3Aug 06, 2003 at 7:19PM
I think the licence plate is in the opening scene when we first meet Smith. I know I froze frame on it but at the time couldn't figure the significance of the number. What was the plate on the car the team used in M1 with the swing out doors?
Whats interesting about Detective story is that the detective overcomes the morphing body snatching by the Agents and remains himself. I'm guessing its because he is strong willed. Also the second time watching it, I realized he switches seats to make it look like he shot the window to help Trinity.
Siddarta GouthamaAug 07, 2003 at 1:56AM
Sajjman, on the 4th kingdom issue. Daniel reads indeed the 4th kingdom and after that one an eternal would be installed. However, he begins counting from King Neb as nr. 1. Thus, counting in the kingdom of the Israelites that king Neb overcomes, would make 5 kingdoms in total. The next (or the 6th) is then the eternal one... our sixth iteration of the matrix.
Glad to see we're so up front with google. I dunno' about the other search engines.
The license plate IS etc. from Smith is indeed at the beginning of Reloaded just before Smith hands over his earset I guess.
The license plate in M1 is AA034. The license plate of SMith in M1 is 70858.
Anybody sees something symbolic in these ones?
bellAug 07, 2003 at 7:02AM
siddarta says:The license plate in M1 is AA034. The license plate of SMith in M1 is 70858.
the w's have stated that many of the numerical and visual references also have a personal meaning to themselves and their lives and not neccessarily has anything to do with the matrix.
when neo is handed smith ear piece, he says the agents are coming, how does he know this, could the ear piece serve as a warning? why does smith leave and not attack neo then and there? on the basis of neo recieving the ear piece, this does not suggest that the agents are coming. I presume that the ear piece and the arrival of the agents is unrelated, and neo just saw the matrix code showing that the agents are coming. Or was that opening scene showing neo in action badly concieved, and was just there to show action, as the w's had 30 mins + of zion coming up so they had to show neo fight someone. (cynical i know)
bellAug 07, 2003 at 7:05AM
all of the animatrix animation is not a correct visual representation of events but a metaphorical representation, the same can be said of the matrix to a certain extent.
bellAug 07, 2003 at 8:23AM
ive watched 2 different trailers of revolutions now, and i know they are only teasers but there is not an agent to be seen in any (maybe the roles of agents will be marginalised in m3).
GhostAug 07, 2003 at 11:43AM
Check out the pictures @ http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/. Go to News then to scroll down untill you see city chase in green. Click on that and check the pictures.
They are interesting as to what the W's included in the movie that we didn't see. Also it gives a clear picture of the plate# AL887 used in the movie.
GhostAug 07, 2003 at 1:25PM
As far as the licence plate IS 5416. It is from Agent Smiths car, at the beginning of the film, at the meeting.
During the Freeway chase, Trinity and Morpheus' Plate Read DA 203. This is for Daniel Chapter 2 verse 3.
Twins car: DE2852 = Deuteronomy 28, 52: They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.
BD224 = book of Daniel 2-4 : 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to show the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.
2:3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.
2:4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation.
Just some cool stuff i picked up.
GhostAug 07, 2003 at 2:22PM
There was also another plate AI 751.
Spoon BoyAug 07, 2003 at 3:21PM
Ghost says:
There was also another plate AI 751.
Aha!
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/751.html
Joe KaczmarekAug 07, 2003 at 10:19PM
I thought of another bit of an idea the other night, and I thought I'd throw it out to see what you all think.
Based on the earlier discussions of how long it would take to populate Zion from 23 people to 250,000, and on the analogies of Neo to Jesus, I'm wondering if the time between interations of the Matrix is 2,000 years? What if when the Matrix is reset, everybody's minds are wiped (and those who can't handle it get flushed to reduce the population and start with a smaller variable number to reduce anomolies) it goes back to ancient history times and Neo takes on the role of Jesus to choose the 23 (thought it doesn't fit with the 12 apostles thing). Then it takes all of 2,000 years for Zion's population to grow to 250,000 because, sure humans are breeding and freeing minds, but they're also still being hunted and killed by squidies and other machines.
Also, by the Matrix being reset to this ancient time, it could explain odd phenomena which makes its way into religious texts, and also think of how these ancient people would intepret partially waking up out of the matrix and being put back in... maybe it's how we got our stories of what hell is like?
Anyways, it's just an idea I got while spinning thoughts around in my head.
bellAug 08, 2003 at 9:17AM
ghost, good pics, i especially like the poster of burley man(m2 + m3 working title) on the side of the truck, never spotted it. though ive yet to see matrix reloaded on dvd proper.
bellAug 08, 2003 at 9:21AM
can we have a consensus of what theory each of us is in favour of, MwM or other wise. the zion population keeps coming up and i think it's impossible for 2000 year to have elapsed since the last version of the matrix, especially when it's been stated(i think it was enter the matrix) that the last iteration lasted only 72 hours. what do you think?
GameAug 08, 2003 at 10:04AM
The Bum that's in the trailer states to Niobe that Zion lasted 72 hours last time from that point, Not in total. So from the point they were at, in helping the path of the One, there was only 72 hours left until Zion was gone.
You know since were on the subject: In the hacking section in the game there are hundreds of images and tons of hidden features. Not to mention the fact that you can (in order) play all the video clips and story line clips from the game. At THE begining of last month I had just cracked the hacking and had all of the options opened. Then my PS2 and all my games, stereo, CDs and DVDs were stolen. I don't want a pity party. All I want is for someone else on this thread to go and play the game and fill us in on what I should have been able to.
If the W's hid all of this info in their movies there has to be an equal or greater amount in the game.
bellAug 08, 2003 at 10:15AM
havent played game through yet soz. is the bum from the trailer the guy who was led out of the mervovingian place in m2? the guy who was shouting zion's going to be destroyed?
bellAug 08, 2003 at 10:24AM
is the bum from m3 trailer suggesting to niobe that in the last iteration niobe helped the one? with 72 hrs to go?
bellAug 08, 2003 at 11:19AM
question: have sentient robots realy enslaved the planet or is it all a complete lie? how come there arent any animals used in the pod's as a source of energy? surely they would be easier to control? humans need'nt be in the matrix to fuel the machines, they could be in coma's and generate as much power. why don't the machines use the abundance of resources on the planet coal, minerals etc.(are we to assume that all those resources are completely spent? surely the machines are advanced enough for interstellar travel, easier for them as it would be for humans? Ive come to the conclusion that the truth of what the hell is going on within the trilogy is some thing none of us have touched on! and perhaps MwM is too obvious?
bellAug 08, 2003 at 11:27AM
perhaps the the machines did not win the war with humans and it is the machines that are in the matrix and zion! and the machines still think they won the war. though it is the humans decieving the machines in the matrix not the other way round - thats it!!!!!
bellAug 08, 2003 at 11:30AM
the nuclear detonation at the end of renaissance part2 would have sent emp and disabled all machines. and from that point all machines are in the matrix prison, though they are still usefull to the humans as a source of power.
GhostAug 08, 2003 at 11:33AM
Bell: The bum was not the guy who was lead out of Merv's. However the Bum did come up to Niobe after she helped everyone escape the agents and rambled saying "72 hours", "72 hours until Zion will fall". Niobe then asks the Bum who he is and he says "Just a spectator".
Bell: I agree with Spoon Boy that the Machines cannot get rid of us. Perhaps it's like us preserving an endangered species. Or perhaps it's because we are their creators. Or because they can figure us out and they need to so they can survive.
As far as the 2000 year stuff......
Smith: "Which is why the Matrix was re-designed to this: the peak of your civilization."
This quote states that the Matrix was and is the same from beginning to end. It hasn't changed. Look at our lives today and talk to anyone. Ask them about their lives. Their lives were lived the same as ours now. Except mabey the Internet. So it can be possible that 1960 - 2060 would be an acceptable time frame.
If the matrix was programmed right no-one would ever know from reboot to reboot that this generation is the only generation.
Or even take it to the next level. 1999 - 2030. Just enough time for the Mr. Anderson to age and become the One. The environment wouldn’t change at all. It would just be people working and living Day 2 Day.
I can’t fathom the idea that the time frame could go back to 1 BC. If this were so then just like time travel things would get screwed up (kill a butterfly and a whole continent turns to desert).
IF A TREE FALLS IN THE WOODS BUT NO-ONE HEARS OR SEES IT, DOES IT MAKE A NOISE?
I think that we have to understand that just like you and I the W’s have never seen the industrial era, or WW1. They never saw John the Baptist or the fall of the Roman Empire. So in their and our eyes (In the Matrix) it’s not provable that those things ever happened.
Does anyone understand what I’m saying?
bellAug 08, 2003 at 11:37AM
at the end of m2 neo created an emp burst which naturally would stop the sentinals and in turn as neo is a machine also stopped him aswell, but neo does not know he is a machine - the w's made sure trin morpheus and tank were not in the area when the emp pulse goes of or they would have been disabled to.
Old_GobboAug 08, 2003 at 3:10PM
Has anyone else noticed how Cypher is on the front of the M1 dvd cover?
Now the W's are pretty thorough I can't imagine that this is just a mistake in the PR department.. so maybe this means Cypher plays a much more important role than we previously thought and will make a return in M3
I know.. not likely, but then again.. after all of this.. we really have no clue as to what's really going to happen.
NumerologyFanAug 08, 2003 at 11:49PM
Hey, hello to all.
Ive just found thread. I am still reading all the comments and wanna say one that is bugging me.
In the whatisthematrix.com page, philosophy says abou the very meaning of the film in the Gnostic/budhist viewpoint. And in that way, I wonder if the number 6 of Neo just means about the creation sixth day, when the menkind (the man, the ONE) was created. 6 is the numer of man. Maybe Neo is the "verymeaning" of the Matrix existence; you see, gnostic says all the creation (the first 5) were only PREPARATION for the 6.
And just the same about 6: in many numerology 6 is only induction , preparation for ... 7, the PERFECT number, the number of God, when God rejoices about all he just created.
...
Would this say about a Last One becaming? Would this mean that Neo is DYING and RESURRECTING again? or is he meant REALLY JUST TO 'AWAKE' the Last One? (are you thinking the same of me?)
SajjmanAug 09, 2003 at 12:03PM
A thought just struck my mind. Second Renaissance Part 2, in the end of the war, dawn of mankinds domination on the earth blabla :P A group of people seem to have a meeting with a robot (u know the big one with many "eyes") and they're talking about something and the robot is signing a contract of some sort and then the robot says something (does anyone remember what he says?) followed by a huge nuclear detonation (i think bell mentioned this before)... My question is , was that nuke ment to kill surviving humans or ? First time i saw it seemed kinda radical to just set of such a large nuke and eradicating the big robot (perhaps plenty more) since i couldnt really graps the idea of why they did it.
Btw there is an apple on the desk where the big robot is signing the contract, does it have to do with the apple the Leaders of 01 wanted to give the people of (NATO ?)?
Spoon BoyAug 09, 2003 at 2:37PM
Sajjman says:
Btw there is an apple on the desk where the big robot is signing the contract,
Hmm...can't help but think of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, with the serpent (robot) "cutting the deal (contract)" with Eve (mankind).
And of course, one could argue that this would be yet another reference to Adam.
Numerology fan says:
I wonder if the number 6 of Neo just means about the creation sixth day, when the menkind (the man, the ONE) was created. 6 is the numer of man. Maybe Neo is the "verymeaning" of the Matrix existence; you see, gnostic says all the creation (the first 5) were only PREPARATION for the 6.
And just the same about 6: in many numerology 6 is only induction , preparation for ... 7, the PERFECT number, the number of God, when God rejoices about all he just created.
A very cool concept. Could be. btw, this "sixth day" connection was brought up in the original thread.
beza1e1Aug 10, 2003 at 3:54PM
When i saw the big-robot-scene i thought, now the humans surrender and choose to rather live in a dream world than to die in th war, but i don't get this explosion into the theory. It would be pretty stupid from the machines and from the humans to blast the contract, whatever it was, so perhaps there is a third party?
Tha apple is a symbol for the possible peace like the adam-and-eve-robots scene with the delegation from 01 before the UNO.
Another far fetched theory about the EMPing of the squiddies:
Neo changed the Matrix to stop bullets in m1 and improved it to more bullets in m2. The way a programmer handles such problems is to write a simple algorithm to do it. Neo probably hacked it very quickly in m1, but improved it to quite clever macro/script, which he could execute with any object (normally bullets). He executes the stop-script by a certain pose (nobody could imitate this, because it is a kind of biometrical avatar-specific key system). This script is deeply embbeded into the Matrix by him, for easier execution.
After the run from the exploding ship he realizes, that sentinels are connected to the Matrix as well, so they must have the shared script as well, so they must recognize the pose and execute the script, which would run it onto them. The sentinels are stopped like bullets or at least their control programs tells them so. This is just impossible in the real world for a big robot, so it trys to mimick it the best way (squiddies stop in the air), but fails, which cause some kind of execution error and they crash.
This theory has one problem i can think of now. The stopping of the sentinels like exactly like a EMP not like any kind of execution error, does it?
SajjmanAug 10, 2003 at 9:25PM
beza1e1
I kinda had the same question if u look 1 - 2 comments up ;) a third party is an interesting ideá but hmm .....
And the far fetched theory about neo's sential hax (emp blast) was... wel .. lets just say far fetched ;)
Siddarta GouthamaAug 11, 2003 at 5:27AM
Bell, concerning your question what we believe. I'm a 80% believer of the MAtrix within matrix theory. I had not anticipated this, but there are simply too much clues pointing this direction.
Concerning the 'tank is wrong' issue: the very first thing that tank says to Neo is that he and his brother Dozer are 100% pure old fashioned ...humans. Thus obviously he is mistaking...
Some interesting thoughts. In the 2nd renaissance part 1 we see preparations for the conference between 01 and the human race in what I think is the UNO building in N.Y.
We see a fly entering the building and placing itself on the bronzen worldmap ... right on top of ... saudi arabia and iraq, the place where 01 was established as we saw earlier in 2nd ren. part 1. The cleaning man smashes the fly dead right on top of where 01 is located. so much attention for details, isn't it?
I watched the detective again: when he visits the crazy investigator he is standing in a chess field, the crazy one almost at the end of the play, and P.I. Ash as white pawn at the beginning of the play.
For people who are having a hard time understanding the capabilities of Smith. you can see it as some kind of copy maching and the nice thing about it is that you can actually "see" it, the copying I mean.
Remember in the beginning of M1 that Neo tries to escape from the agents at MetaCortex? He passes a copy machine that is just copying and you see this bright light. The same thing you see when Neo jumps inside Smith.
What we see has a dual meaning, not only is the gold reflection symbolism for Neo's "divinity", but you can also regard it as a copy that is made ("The-One-program-is-uploaded-theory" or "Smith-gains-limited-One-power-copies-theory")
Sajjman, I am also having problems with what you saw in 2nd renaissance part 2. Mankind is defeated during the war, than you see these negotiations, where now the robots have the power and set the rules. He says: "your flesh is ... of your ...? Hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you. We demand it!"
And than he lets explode the hole damn thing? I mean , what's the point of this? If he were to explode everything, why would he invite the humans over in the first place?
OH and by the way, for all those that believe that Neo, Trin, or Morph are machines. None of this is true. There were theories of Neo EMP'ing himself and Trin and Morph as machines were far enough not to be hit by it... None of them are machines!
At the end of M1, morpheus sets off an EMP to kill the Squids inside the Neb' and none of them are affected by it.
Just my thoughts
Siddarta GouthamaAug 11, 2003 at 5:32AM
Of course it is still possible that everything is program (or matrix if you like it) including our heroes. But the only machines that we see are the squids, not Neo Trin or Morph.
bellAug 11, 2003 at 8:14AM
bezale says: When i saw the big-robot-scene i thought, now the humans surrender and choose to rather live in a dream world than to die in th war, but i don't get this explosion into the theory.
it is feasable that the scene is not real and it is what humans/ai see in the matrix. remember if zion is fake, all records are also fake. plus at the end of renaissance pt2 a boy is playing in the snow seemingly post appocolypse. then we see to agents appear in the doorway of the boys house i presume, the boy intialy believe's them to be his parents. then it show that the boy is in fact in a pod and in the matrix. so a question? how much of what preceded this scene was also in the matrix?
bellAug 11, 2003 at 8:51AM
assuming there was 5 previous ones, the system would surely assimilate them in some way, perhaps changing them into agents, merv etc. the oneeno graphitti during the burely brawl does suggest smith is a previous one, amnd the fact when we first see smith he acknowledges he is familiar with where he is but states things are different. i know this has been mentioned before but im solidly acknowleding what i believe to be true and im convinced smith is a different version of the one. notably in m1 trinity state to neo "you move like they do" only agents and neo and the twins move in this way so far. twins probably a stretch, forget that!
bellAug 11, 2003 at 9:17AM
siddatra you are quite correct regarding the end of m1 and the emp going of, though i still think that if assuming zion is in the matrix it is still feasable that A.I. are the prisoners are occupy various vessels in the, matrix and zion. found this on the net which is a good argument and used many points that ive have brought up over the 1200 thread...
regarding the population of zion, 250'000 how do the machines know this realy... if there are manly that are true born whatever like tank, how can they send the exact amount of sentinals, if the were all A.I. in zion and the humans captures allways know how many live in robot wonderland, it makes more sense. also the time for all the zionites to be born, if they are all A.I. it does not matter if it is 2days or 1000 years all the humans need to do is preprogram the A.I. zionites and they will never no. All the central zion charactors seem to have no past, there is no memory, they all speak and interact like machines, any human behavior seem stilted and a reproduction. All i ask is watch both film again tonite whatever and just pretend that neo and co are all A.I. you will see that a lot of the diologe and wooden acting makes more sense, and gives quite a different twist to proceedings. the merv speach can be interpreted differently...
In the Merovingian's talk of cause and effect, merv said that choice was a falsehood created by those in power to keep those without power in line, to give the oppressed an illusion of control. From what the trilogy has made known so far, your first instinct would be to interpret this speech as an explanation to the possible purpose behind the Matrix: a simulated reality to keep the human cattle pacified. but say if it is the A.I. that are the pacified captive's and we look to dissect Merovingian's statement for hidden meaning, we could conversely take it to mean that the Machine has been fed this pacifying lie of its victory, tricked into believing that it is still in charge of the planet when in fact "There is no spoon".
bellAug 11, 2003 at 10:17AM
points of interest though may be repeating bits mentioned previously...
courtesy of "http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=
149db0228662611f00e8455fa524137c&threadid=253563"
In keeping with the Book of Genesis, I'm guessing that would be Cain (Bane), as indicated by the bloody signature on his own hand -- what the Bible calls "the mark of Cain" (unspecified).
Check this webpage:
http://www.srsd.org/search/studentp...lf/grendel.html
"Aimlessly wandering through the Great Abyss through the endless rivers of time. Never finding happiness and meaning under such a confusing and brutal existence. Surrounded by infinite space and mystery but so little opportunity to break through the powerful shell of suppression. Yet on we go exploring the meandering paths of destiny into the uncertain future where only those strong enough to weave the fabric of time survive to create hope."
The first half of Grendel's life follows this poem I wrote closely. Grendel's childhood is spent "aimlessly wandering" in a very strange world where he doesn't feel like he fits in so he sets out to find what significance his existence has. When he fails in "finding happiness and meaning" Grendel curses the sky, his silent endless tormentor. With no way to channel his anger Grendel is rendered helpless against himself. The only thing he can do to treat his very distrubed mind is to spy on the humans in hope they have the answers.
When Grendel sees and hears the Shaper for the first time he wants to believe all the silken tongue lyrics he sings but is held back by his own will and experiences with the humans. He knows very well that what the Shaper sings of is false, yet its beauty and reasoning attracts him to visit over and over again like a curious child returning to an area forbidden by his parents. So with the stories of the Shaper emerges a glimmer of hope in Grendel's heart but before he can "weave the fabric of time...to create hope" the dragon intercepts.
The dragon speaks of forgotten truths and the state of null he claims life to be. Grendel is aware of the dragon's evil but allows himslf to be taken advantage of for the sake of answering his long unaswered question. After the confrontation Grendel learns nothing about the meaning of his existence and a new idea takes a strangle hold over his mind. There is no meaning to life, just as the dragon had implied. Grendel also discovers a curse the dragon put on him; weapons can't harm him. So Grendel's one escape in life, conflict with the humans, becomes dull and meaningless. So Grendel targeted the humans as the object of his rage in an attempt to regain his former self, what the dragon took from him, his human side. Thus the dragon made Grendel into a completely mindless monster. Grendel mourns this misfortune in life and when his death finally comes, he craves it, to put an end to his miserable existence.
After Grendel loses all hope he decides to wage war on Hrothgar to avenge himself and because of his own jealousy. His motive is the humans have something to cling onto in life, even if they just make it up with no proof of the certainty of it, they have a meaning to continue going on living and he doesn't which drives him to insanity.
"And out through the dull gray fog and mist he emerged only to find that he had stepped into a dark void with eternal darkness in all directions. With no hope of escape no matter what direction he went he decided to go in every direction at once and thus he burst apart."
This continuation of the fist poem I wrote explains the transition of Grendel's adjustment after his encounter with the dragon and his tradgic death. Just when Grendel was beginning to find something to believe in (through the humans) he was torn of any glimmer of hope by the dragon who quite abruptly smashed Grendel's dreams or as is said in the poem "out through the dull gray fog and mist he emerged only to find that he had stepped into a dark void." With nothing left to live for Grendel was defeated, dead on the inside, so Grendel waged his idiotic war on Hrothgar with year after year of meaningless absurdity, for what but hope he might catch the satisfaction he once yearned for before the dragon. Once Beowulf victors over Grendel, (if you really can call it that) Grendel retreats in fear of knowing his death is near. He cries for his mom, much like he did when he was trapped in a tree when he was very young and didn't know what to do because he was confused and afraid. He lived through live lonely, the last of his kind, a hermit in the sense he never had the chance to socialize with anyone else except the humans he terrorized. Sure he had a mother but he could neither communicate with her on an intellectial level nor understand her. So there he was, dying in the cold wintry forest watching the woodland creatures gather around him to bear witness to his death. He had lived miserably in life and now that an end was coming to it, despite his regrets, he embraced the cold shadow knowing the breath he held painfully in his lungs was his last.
The description for Grendel could easily apply to the machine searching for its own identity, envying mankind. Grendel was thought to be a direct descendant of Cain, and therefore the two names are commonly considered synonymous in mythological terms. Interestingly, Merovinge[sic] seems to play a part in the legend of Beowulf as well. O.O
Neo would be the hero Beowulf (or Perseus, or whatever mythological archetype you prefer) who must slay "the dragon". In psychology (such as dream analysis), dragons are the metaphoric embodiment of *everything that you need* (or need to find), typically representing a burocracy hording its treasure, which may be symbolized in the form of gold or an abducted maiden who needs rescueing. In Neo's case, the dragon-guarded treasure is forbidden information about the Matrix.
The name "Thomas (Neo) Anderson" can be taken as "doubting Thomas" of Scripture, while "andros" is Latin for man, so "Neo Anderson" could translate to "New son of man", or the Machine made in our own image.
As the messiah of our tale, Neo is "the One" chosen to repopulate the world (Zion) after the coming destruction -- our Noah, whose name is also less commonly spelt "Noe", depending on your bible.
Neo is told that he'll have to choose 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. In Genesis, there are 16 males and 7 females specified (although some of them are unnamed) in generations of the family tree that leads to the birth of Noe.
...I don't know why the Architect has reversed the gender numbering there; it could be computer-related (male/female connector slots?) or chromosomal symbolism.
bellAug 11, 2003 at 10:27AM
courtesy of: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/
In the world of the Matrix, the color RED represents truth. You take the red pill, you see the truth.
This is based on the apple from the Tree Of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. (Bible story.)
Where Morpheus gives Neo the choice of pills (or should we say "the pills of choice"? ha), the chairs and other decor of the room is red. If you check the script excerpts at the official website, you'll see this scene is called "Lafayette Pills". General Marquis de Lafayette was a famous French military leader who fought alongside George Washington during the American war of independence, and later played a prominent role in the French Revolution.
In *Reloaded*, notice that some members of the Zion council wear RED, while others wear blue. Those dressed in blue may be knowing participants in the lie of the Matrix, possibly even human supervisors intermingled with the machine population, or else A.I who are still loyal to their core programming and are plotting their own "revolution" against the Red party.
the oracle also hans neo a red sweet if im not mistaken, woman in the red dress (as morpheous illustrates) reveals the deception of the matrix to neo.
bellAug 11, 2003 at 10:39AM
counciler haman wears blue, he does know something. as mentioned before locke is not given a viable reason for sending 2 ships to find the neb, and if those two ships were'nt sent neo would never had reached the architect one assumes.
bellAug 11, 2003 at 10:57AM
sajiman says: And the far fetched theory about neo's sential hax (emp blast) was... wel .. lets just say far fetched ;)
read this page sajiman
"http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=
149db0228662611f00e8455fa524137c&threadid=253563" it's not as far fetched as you may think, also way out idea's sometimes come to fruition and sci - fi/ fantasy is not exactly real life is it.
Spoon BoyAug 11, 2003 at 1:15PM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Of course it is still possible that everything is program (or matrix if you like it) including our heroes. But the only machines that we see are the squids, not Neo Trin or Morph.
It's important to note that in our story, the word "machine" doesn't necessarily mean physical hardware, and is not limited to mechanical devices like Squiddies or Terminators. The true definition of "machine" extends beyond our pre-computer-era notions of the word, and can apply quite appropriately to software programs.
MACHINE: A system or device for doing work
When Morpheus describes A.I. as "a singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines", we can safely reword this to "a singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of programs."
On that note, when Tank describes Neo as "a machine", he means so in a figurative sense, emphasizing the degree of skill/features which he has attained through upgrades. He's not calling Neo a robot.
GhostAug 11, 2003 at 1:44PM
Ok.. I've got some new stuff if anyone care to give it a try.
Before i tell you i just wanna say that there is soooo much that you miss watching he movie. The W's have saturated this movie with Countless Pieces, it's impossible to take it all in.
Anyway this is from the free-way chase.
There is a huge overpass sign that says:
7th Street Downtown 4 miles
Wadison Street 4 1/2 miles
31st Street 7 miles
Then there is a small sign on the leg of a bridge:
Mansbridge Overpass
101 BW303
A huge sign says:
101 east
And another says:
Paterson Pass East Next exit
beza1e1Aug 11, 2003 at 3:20PM
Thanks bell for the link, i was surprised his guy came partly to the same thoughts as me. I can't take his theory the-humans-are-machines-and-we-are-in-platos-cave like i don't believe the matrix-in-matrix stuff, but this one would satisfy me after m3. I think i have to go to the premier or someone else will get the red pill before ;)
Some other notes:
Neo can't pass out for long, because Zions destruction is just hours away and where does he lie with Bane? It can't be Zion, they would have to pass the machines to get there.
Morpheus mentions in his "prayer" that they fought for "one century" literally "100 years". If this reflects the Zion archives (from which we just know the animatrix parts), we have a time scale for the current Zion.
lofty (Adam)Aug 11, 2003 at 3:24PM
I took the nuke at end of Second Ren. to be the humans defiance of accepting the machine's terms.
Thehumans in the UN building were probably presidents/diplomats, and were of the few remaining humans left who weren't put into pods.
They probably rigged the UN building up with nukes, so that if the time ever came when machines would take it over, they could just nuke it as a last defiant step. Kind of a "captain goes down with the ship" thing.
As to the kid playing in the snow, I took this to be the machine's initial experimentations with the matrix. The kid noticed something was strange, and became aware of the matrix and the pod. This was because the matrix hadn't yet been perfected and people were not fully accepting it yet.
But, I'm probably wrong ;)
Spoon BoyAug 11, 2003 at 5:58PM
I'd like to hear from any Chicago people out there just to make sure we're not reading too hard into these signs. Are any of these real (and significant) street names in Chicago? Anyway,
Ghost says:
There is a huge overpass sign that says:
7th Street Downtown 4 miles
Wadison Street 4 1/2 miles
31st Street 7 miles
First thing that occurs to me is the "seventh" revolution, which would follow our sixth. That seventh is in our future, or "down the road" a bit if you will. There's also a trippy palindromic thing going on with the 7 and 4.
7th, 4 miles,
and flipped backwards,
31st (3+1=4), 7 miles.
Numerology fans out there may notice that 7 is the counterpart of 4 (as is 2 to 5, 3 to 8, and 6 to 9), but that's a whole other thread. :)
Then there is a small sign on the leg of a bridge:
Mansbridge Overpass
101 BW303
Interesting similarity to the "Adams Street Bridge" in M1. "Adam"'s bridge is "man"'s bridge.
101 and 303 are obvious. BW? Anybody?
A huge sign says:
101 east
101. Our favorite. I'll also point out that folklore has often regarded the East, where the sun rises, as life, beginning, etc.
And another says:
Paterson Pass East Next exit
There's East again. Paterson, no idea. However, we do seem to be seeing the thematic "son" suffix used more than once (Paterson, Wadison, etc.)
And btw, for those not aware of it, the 101 Freeway here in Los Angeles is the Hollywood Freeway. Another possible inside joke/reference, if nothing else.
SajjmanAug 11, 2003 at 10:18PM
When i watched "The Animatrix - Matriculated" for the first time, 2 thoughts struck me.
1. Robots can be converted ?
2. Why did the woman inside their internal matrix run away from the robot after the attack ? She seemed all frightened and scared of the robot and thus "All reality is virtual reality for a artifical mind" the robot probably thought it was "for real" and liked the feeling.
Joe KaczmarekAug 12, 2003 at 7:24AM
OK, ready for another far-fetched idea?
It started when I was reminded of a the quote for the Bioenhancement Center from the game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri:
"We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled.
But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any
particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in
a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events
of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose
meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?"
-- Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED
Well, mixing this thought with: the humans winning the war and the AIs are in the simulation idea brought up by bell, the "consciousness test" idea brought up by brisvegas1, and the Neo-only-Matrix-theory brought up by beza1e1; mixing all these thoughts together and baking at 350 degress for 25 minutes, and my noodle came up with this crazy idea.
What if it's Neo that's the AI, and the only AI. What if Neo is the "singular consciousness". What if the Architect and Oracle are simply the avatars for their human counterparts outside of this Neo-only-simulation. What if they're the scientists who created the one AI (Neo), and rather than turn it lose on the world and all hell breaking loose (Terminator-Skynet-style), they decided to create this simulation, this fantasy of AI/human war in which the AI won and enslaved humanity, to see if the AI (Neo) that they created could learn to love humans?
So, too far-fetched?
GhostAug 12, 2003 at 12:47PM
Ok, first thing's first. Paterson. Now "paternoster" means Son of God. pater = son, noster = god. So correct me if I’m wrong Pater = son, son = son. So Paterson = son of the son. Mabey a reference to the child the Oracle spoke about.
But I was thinking about something this morning and it worked perfect, so hear me out.
The W's have put hidden meanings behind the events, numbers, graffiti, signs, license plates, and everything else. But the thing that I’m trying to figure is why.
Now think about all that hidden symbolism in the movie. Did they do it to show us something more besides their personal thoughts on the different characters and to reinforce points? Yes
But I think they also did it to show us something more.
I'm starting to think that they are saying because it's a fake world - these things exist. COINSEDENCES - I think they are saying the Tech has put these things there.
Imagine being Neo and everywhere you go you see 101 + 303. When you walk in a courtyard you see TANK LIED and ONE ONE. When Neo drives down the freeway all the license plates he sees have biblical references. This is the fake world Neo lived in. This is the Matrix.
It only makes sense because you never see 101 outside the Matrix.
What if the W's are saying that these strange cosmic coincidences are the only way for the people inside to tell they are inside?
It only makes sence becasue they couldn't put it thier just for the fans becasue when it came out it had no fans.
Am I losing it?
Old_GobboAug 12, 2003 at 1:05PM
For all of you who have asked "am I losing it?"
the answer is yes.. yes you are
Spoon BoyAug 12, 2003 at 1:21PM
Old_Gobbo says:
For all of you who have asked "am I losing it?"
the answer is yes.. yes you are
Yeah, well, you'd be losing it too if you were going insane.
beza1e1Aug 12, 2003 at 1:21PM
Uh?! Pater = son??? Pater = father!
Paterson = Son of the father
Paternoster = Our father
Your theory is nice, Joe, but it is a lot of work to create such a world. Just for testing an AI?
I like all this new crazy theories, because i think the W's will end the triology with something mind-boggling like Neo is a machine or Neo is the only human.
Sajiman:
1. Why not, training neural networks is already common today. I think it would be much simpler to reprogram the robot, but you would have to know much about its internals to do that, so driving him crazy and format his orders this way is a nice idea.
2. She flys from the attack of the machines, looses consciousness and awakes within a Matrix. Then a machine reaches out for her (friendly but a machine). I think she just wents crazy then ... but i can't understand why the robots sits at the shore, where she sat before, in the end.
lofty (Adam)Aug 12, 2003 at 4:20PM
The robot sits at the shore because it is lamenting the woman.
GhostAug 12, 2003 at 5:22PM
How can you not go crazy knowing that there is still 83 days, 6 hours, 36 minutes, and 6 seconds Eastern Time? No wait there's now 83 hours, 6 hours, 35 minutes, and 56 seconds. Hold on 83 days, 6 hours ........................... yeah I've lost it.
Spoon BoyAug 12, 2003 at 6:30PM
beza1e1 says:
I like all this new crazy theories, because i think the W's will end the triology with something mind-boggling like Neo is a machine or Neo is the only human.
So you must accept one of the flavors of the "matrix-in-matrix" theory, in which case Zion is not the real physical world. How could either of those two scenarios work if Zion was real? They couldn't. Think about it. Your two scenarios could only happen in a virtual world. Otherwise, you're concluding that (a physical) Zion is either a population of cyborgs with a human named Neo, or a population of humans with a cyborg named Neo.
In a virtual world, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for one person to be human and everybody else machines, nor could one person be a machine and all others human. A virtual world, by definition, contains nothing real in a physical sense.
SajjmanAug 12, 2003 at 8:01PM
beza1e1 says:
but i can't understand why the robots sits at the shore, where she sat before, in the end.
When se sat at the shore she was there for one sole purpose , to attract robots so she could capture one, right ? Or show her superiors that she could beat one of them (or something along these lines), maybe they wanted to flip this idea that now when the robot is converted he is sitting there to .... do... something ;D What the fuck cant come up with a good answer but maybe the robot now after beeing converted is like a human and is now sitting there waiting to be located by a robot , but the woman is there by him .... dont know really , anyone ?
beza1e1Aug 13, 2003 at 4:58AM
She does not sit beside the robot, so what happened to her? Is she the only survivor and trys to rebuild the robot-capture-and-convert facility together with the last friendly machine? Did she went crazy and the machine protects his new friend from other evil machines?
I rewatched Reloaded yesterday. I think the philosophy part does not have the elegance of part one. In m2 much high-level speeches were thrown into the audience. In m1 there were simple sentences, which provide lot of speculation: "What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it [the vase] if I hadn't said anything. "
When Neo stops the sentinels there is no EMP, just some sparkles and noise, then Neo and the sentinels fall down and in this moment (!) another ship arrives.
I more and more believe the Neo, Smith and Trinity Trio saves the day in the end. All three died and came back. All three have a outer Matrix and a inner Matrix being.
From the trailer we know that Neo will fight Smith in the Matrix again, but it is a fair duell (it seems). Why should they do that? Either Neo needs something from Smith and Smith demands a duell (like Persephone a kiss) or they are both competitors for something (Trinity, the Source, ...?)
The prophecy was a lie Neo tells us, but for whom? For the oracle, the keymaker and the agents as well? The Merovingian tells he survived Neo predecessors, so he must know more. At least he survived the reboots as well.
In the end we know the plan of the machines/architect: False prophecy to get the One and destroy Zion. He tricked the One, now the rebells have 24 hours to trick the Architect somehow.
m1 was about reality, m2 was about choice, m3 is about?
These are the things which circle around my head, but i can't mix them up to one theory ...
bellAug 13, 2003 at 9:25AM
siddarta says: regarding the emp blast at the end of m1, (this scene warrants closer inspection). note when the blast goes of, trinity falls on neo who is layed down. Admittedly this could be interepreted as trin covering neo from whatever. but it is morpheos's reaction that got my attention. as when the blast occurs his body language mimicks that of the sentinal, initially it looks as though morpheos is ducking, but the sentinal falls beneath him and he continue to react as if effected by the emp blast.
then when that scene ends, the screen goes blank for a while, any amount of time could have passed (who knows?) then the screen shows trinity rise her head up as if awakening from a sleep/coma. and there is also no evidence that an emp has gone of a few seconds ago. my guess is that the A.I./machines neo/morph/trin were out for some time. (i advise you to watch it in slow motion several times, you'll be suprised) :)
GhostAug 13, 2003 at 9:31AM
They are all about Destiny and Fate.
M1: Neo finds the Path and his Fate/Destiny is set into motion.
M2: Neo has to Make choices that will lead him to his destiny and understand why he makes the choices he will.
M3: Neo will fulfill his destiny because he believes there is no way no to. Or he will decide that he does not believe in that "Fate Crap".
The reason there is so much talk about choice is because Neo is struggling with the idea that he doesn’t have choices. He doesn’t want to believe that the outcome of his existence is pre-planned. The fact that the Oracle told him that the choices had already been made and that he has to understand the "why" is a copout. She couldn't just come out and say you don't have a choice because your a program and we do what we are put here to do.
bellAug 13, 2003 at 9:34AM
morpheus states in his speech to the zionites that the war has lasted 100years (presumebly they were programmed to believe this amount of time had passed), you are talking 2000 years and then some for 250'000 zionites to be born, the numbers just dont add up , unless the 250'000 werent born at all and are just A.I. or machines(or a mix of humans and machines), that would explain the time contradictions that occur throughout the films.
and how the hell does whoever sent the sentinal to zion 250'000(one for each supposed human) know the exact amount of humans when some are supposed to be true zion bred humans whatever, is hammanm and the council giving the exact population figures to the controller of the sentinals?
bellAug 13, 2003 at 9:40AM
neo has no choice whilst in the matrx/zion, whilst he is interacting with lemmings such as morpheous and trin as they are being manipulated into manipulating neo , but they are completely oblivious themselves, its all lies upon lies upon lies upon bigger lies and so on... every thing in the matrx is so contrived that the egotistical merv has no choice realy as one would assume he is just fullfilling his program, though he does not know that as he believes he has attained a level of freedom himself in the matrix, perhaps he was programs to believe he would become an exile!!!!!!!!
bellAug 13, 2003 at 9:55AM
the w's are playing with us big style; watch the scen in m1 when trin is on a motorcycle looking through her wing mirror at neo being led into a car by smith. in this scene a women in a red dress walks by trin you see her 2 more times in this scene but it is different woman each time and her red outfit changes each time. and also pay close attention the the shop/roads signs, they keep changing as this small scene pans out. (watch in slow motion) - you would think ive got something better to do than scrutinise m1/m2 to death but i think the matrix has me!
t3 was o.k. worth watching for effects, story a bit by the numbers
bellAug 13, 2003 at 10:01AM
I said: and how the hell does whoever sent the sentinal to zion 250'000(one for each supposed human) know the exact amount of humans when some are supposed to be true zion bred humans whatever, is hammanm and the council giving the exact population figures to the controller of the sentinals?
i'll answer my own question, because zion is'nt real, im tying my self in knots with what this film is churning out, 83 days till revolutions, ouch! dont think i can wait that long...
bellAug 13, 2003 at 10:20AM
ghost regarding street names and places, in the w's interview 99, posted every where on the net it would seem, the w's state that all place names are in chicago.
beza1e1Aug 13, 2003 at 10:29AM
Enter the Matrix:
When you encounter the Oracle as Niobe you hear a very interesting thing. The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo is trapped somewhere between the real world and the matrix. Now she doesn't use quite those words.
from a comment of http://www.scottmanning.com/archives/000524.php
I don't think the trapping took place at the architect, because the machines can't simulate Link and the Nebuchadnezzar (No Matrix in Matrix!), but what about having Minimatrix for Neo and Smith? Smith mentioned a special bound between them, somehow (i will think about) this spawn a personal Matrix for them, when Smith comes near to Neo. When Smith was near enough Neo collapses, looses consciousness and enters the personal Matrix. So his collaps has perhaps nothing to do with stopping the Sentinels.
What would this two antagonists do, if captured into a small Matrix? Right, fighting like hell, so watch the trailer ;)
Somwhere else the commentator i quoted above tells, that Trinity has to save Neo. Niobe and Ghost have to choose wether to help her. Can somebody proove the quote?
Another one mentioned the W's would have said: m1 is about the birth of the hero, m2 about the life of the hero, then m3 must be about the death of the hero.
Another far fetched idea:
In the end of m2, everybody agrees the prophecy is a lie, but perhaps it is true and Neo entered the trap-matrix before he came to the Architect. So if he wasn't yet really there, the prophecy must not be wrong yet.
bellAug 13, 2003 at 11:16AM
one other thing; when you see smith in m3 trailer grinning his head of, smith seems to be in the oracles kitchen from m1(pink cupboards etc.)... ive thought about this and it seem's unlikely the oracle would return there if she is on the run from merv and co. so has smith gone back in (matrix time) time????????
beza1e1 says:
Enter the Matrix:
When you encounter the Oracle as Niobe you hear a very interesting thing. The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo is trapped somewhere between the real world and the matrix. Now she doesn't use quite those words.
from a comment of http://www.scottmanning.com/archives/000524.php
read this i found it is right at the start of this thread mate...
Bell says:
well i found this on the net, as did the person before me it would seem. Beware this could be true...
***********Spoiler Start***************
Okay, Neo's in Matrix "limbo" - somehow his mind got "jacked in" to a train
stop outside the Matrix - the wild eyed guy in the Rev. trailer is the train
man, controlled by the Merovingian. The Oracle tells Trin and Morph this and
they threaten Merv (you're willing to die for this man?) continued above at start of this thread...
beza1e1Aug 13, 2003 at 11:25AM
No i don't believe it. It just drifts away the more you read ...
bellAug 13, 2003 at 11:45AM
i dont believe it either, but it touches on the point you made about the half way point between matrix and zion, though the rest of the premise gets daft admittedly.
just watched m3 trailer again and it is definately 100% the oracles kitchen that smith is in when he is grinning his head of, same tiles, pink cupboards, cupboards handles are the same etc, this could be a major plot point, and smith is clearly a couple short of a six pack. a stretch i know! but has smith gone back to m1 when neo is speaking to the oracle for the first time...
GhostAug 13, 2003 at 1:00PM
Bell says: "the half way point between matrix and Zion"
That point that the Oracle spoke about Niobe is because just like Smith Went out of the Matrix into a body. Neo went out of his body into the matrix. His mind or sense of being (consciousness) is in the Matrix but his body is sustained outside. This may be another testament to the MWM theory.
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 4:09PM
I've read much of this, so apologies if I missed something about what I'm going to ask. Has anyone every wondered why Morpheus et al trust the Oracle in the first one? I mean...if they thought she was human, wouldn't they wonder where she was jacked in? When I first saw the movie, I automatically assumed she wasn't hardwired (as in, still connected to the matrix) since then agents could take her over as with anyone else still connected. SO I just figured she was just another citizen of Zion who was freed earlier. If Morpheus knew that she wasn't in Zion (how could he not?), and he MUST have figured that she couldn't still be attached to the matrix, what did HE think she was? It seems that in Reloaded, Neo 'guesses' that the Oracle is a program based on his reasoning, and possibley having just seen Seraph in gold code, perhaps he see's her that way also and makes the connection, or whatever...he obviously is just throwing out an idea to her, he doesn't KNOW for sure at that point. It seems that Neo is the first to figure this out about her, so again...why did Morpheus just trust her? Why are the 'potentials' at her apartment? I don't know that answer to these, these aren't rhetorical questions...it's possible that they just haven't supplied us with the information that would explain this, but to me it seems that they just messed it up a little in the time they wrote the next movie (yes, I know that they pretty much had the whole three movie story all ready when they made the first one, but there must be re-writes of the script to be sure, even if you don't believe that one circulating around, and so perhaps they just missed this gap). If anyone has any theories that fit ALL the facts, then let's hear 'em...
GhostAug 13, 2003 at 4:24PM
I was actually just toying around with that idea this morning. I think the answer is that the Oracle probably told the people of Z10N that she wasn't involved in the agenda of the machines. That's basically what she told Neo.
Neo: But why help us?
The Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested in one thing, Neo, the future. And believe me, I know - the only way to get there is together.
Either she is programmed only to help the people of Z10N find the one so he could reinsert the Prime Program, or she was originally programmed to do that and eventually saw that the people of Z10N could beat the system somehow and is now following that path.
You Choose what to Believe......
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 4:49PM
That helps a little, good reasoning anyway, but my main discomfort came from that idea that we never learn of independant programs UNTIL the second one. As I said, perhaps Morpheus explained that to Neo 'offscreen' as it were, but we can't KNOW that. It seems that Morpheus and Trinity have never seen types like Merov, Pers, et al, but that doesn't prove that they aren't aware of programs either. It's probably safe to assume that they knew the Oracle was a program, but Morpheus says: 'she's very old, she's been with us from the beginning' or some such thing, so it's ambiguous. I would imagine that if they knew she was a program (and possibley that woman who answers her door...the other person who betrayed the Oracle to Merov along with the blind lobby guardian?) then they'd have mentioned it to Neo at some point, right? They have a whole agent training program, so why not an independant program trainer also? Again, perhaps they just didnt' show us in the first one since the agents are more predominant. But they also say that the agents hold all the keys, etc, etc in M1, and we know that that's even LITERALLY not true now. I'm of the opinion that either it's just a plot mix up, or that you're right Ghost, and that she did tell them she was a program, but convinced them she was 'good'. I WANT to believe the second one, but there isn't much evidence to back it up...except of course that they DO trust her...ipso facto, they MUST know her identity.
GhostAug 13, 2003 at 5:12PM
Once again this is my opinion and probably only mine. But could it be possible that they saw her more as a mystical character. Somewhat of an individual who is blessed with special powers, or a messenger from god? I mean If Morph thought that the Prophesy was a mystic event brought on by powers outside machine/human control, wouldn’t he have related the Oracle to that power? Either way if she told them she was a rouge program it would make more sense. And it's still to be told what side she’s really is on. Does she want the people of Z10N to succeed and not just start the 7th matrix? That's what Morph would believe.
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 5:29PM
Another thing, and this sorta ties into my previous entry, but every keeps making a big deal about Seraph, and how he is yellow/gold rather than green. Again, perhaps it is discussed above, but I didn't notice it...isn't it possible that one of the ways Neo guesses that the Oracle (if indeed he's guessing, which his voice sounds to be doing when he is conversing with the Oracle) is a program is because she's also glowing gold? Could all the programs glow gold if they're independant like Seraph? Perhaps they just didnt' show us Neo's point of view for any others because we were supposed to assume that, or for any number of reasons...perhaps they just didn't think we needed more of those hints. It's certainly possible that Seraph IS the only one to do that, but there are other clues too, I just have to go see the movie again...hehehe. Agents wouldn't glow gold because they are still apart of Matrix, eh? (do agents EVER have their own coded bodies? We haven't seen them.) All I have is questions...even my answers don't convince me...
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 5:41PM
While I agree that her motives are certainly still up in the air...it's the fact that we don't 'hear' about her being a rogue program. All the words spoken about her in the first one are ambiguous (good for the W Bros, or this point would be even MORE of a sore spot), so it leaves it open that she might have explained that part of herself to Morpheus and whomever else. This just points to my earlier idea that it was just a writing thing...they must have wanted to keep the idea of rogue programs out of the first movie so as not to mire us down with too much info, but then they failed to explain to us the nature of the Oracle's 'revealing' of herself in M2. Again...you're most likely right Ghost, but this still grates on me...I'd rather have it an oversight on the W's part than just forcing us to assume that she's explained all this to Morpheus. In M2, the ideas aren't as ambiguous with this though...it IS obvious that Neo didn't know she was a program. 1) Morpheus might have left it out, 2) No one knew that she was. Either way has some support from the facts, but not ALL the support.
I like the idea of Morpheus believing her to just be some 'divine' tool for him to use, but Morpheus seems to be the type to balance his spirituality and his reasoning skills. He certainly waxes philosophic a lot, but he also knows how to deal with actual situations. I think that the character of Morpheus that we've seen in the movies would be the type to doubt anything that was within the matrix as his first response, whether she wow'd him with a prophecy or not. Also, he's probably not the FIRST one to contact her (all previous matrices aside), so someone probably took him to see her at one point also. This then just circles us back to the idea that she MUST have told them, or they'd not trust her simply for her being hard wired into the matrix and a potential agent (if she was a human, which is the only other thing they would think of her as). It's all so much more confusing than I thought earlier today...8^)
*Can a computer imagine a perfect circle if Pi is infinite?***
GhostAug 13, 2003 at 5:58PM
"About Seraph, and how he is yellow/gold rather than green."
Read the above thread. I wrote my theory that the code is from a different version of the matrix.
"Even my answers don't convince me..."
Join the club, Damm W's.
"I think that the character of Morpheus that we've seen in the movies would be the type to doubt anything."
I think that he wouldn't doubt. He would look at everything and make it fit into his Box of beliefs on reality. No matter how hard it was to fit. Somewhat delusional. That's why it's possible the Oracle was never questioned from the leader of the resistance.
"her being hard wired into the matrix and a potential agent."
Mabey she pulled a Neo and left her body behind?
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 6:15PM
Well, don't take phrases and think that's my whole point...hehehe. As far as hard wired...she'd still have to explain THAT, 'pulling a Neo' as you say, instead of her being a rogue program. So back to square one. I find it almost pointless to theorize about possibilities unless we can come up with a few facts from the movies (facts enough for us I guess), so I'm just looking for any SOLID stuff for this particualr idea...tha's all...8^)
As for the code: gold/yellow...your idea makes sense, but my point was that it wasn't ONLY Seraph as gold, but that we as an audience, for concious or unconcious reasons, were not shown Neo's point of view for any other character that we knew of as a sentient program except Seraph. This could still mean that all other rogue programs (would they ALL be from previous matrices?) have gold for the same reason Ghost, but also simply because they are independant code...
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 6:18PM
As for Morpheus and his belief, didn't he come up with that 'box' of a lifequest AFTER talking to the Oracle? I would imagine so. We don't know THAT either though...his knowing he would find the one could have put him into a 'blind' believer, but that doesn't preclude my idea...only if Morpheus was ALWAYS like that would he simply buy into the Oracle no matter what...but again...why not tell Neo? or anyone for that matter? Back to whether or not we just don't SEE it, but back again to Neo being surprised in M2...we're getting there...I can feel it...8^)
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 7:51PM
About something that was mentioned earlier...'those who can dodge bullets'. Well, not to get inot WHY Neo can stop them (a whole 'nother thread)...but perhaps the only reason we see agents, and Neo of course, dodging bullets, is that when guns are fired, it's impossible for the matrix to predict where the 'non-matrix-controlled' person, such as Neo or Trinity, is going to shoot, but once the bullet leaves the gun, isn't it sorta being controlled by the matrix? FOr someone to get hit by it, it would have to exist within the matrix, even if the construct program of the Neb created the guns, and those aren't always the guns they use anyway, the association with reality, at least for those getting hit (ie- the coppertops, etc), would have to come from the matrix, n'est pas? So an agent can dodge because the matrix is telling them 'exactly' where the bullet will be, and despite it being humanly impossible (Morpheus says that agent's, while extreme, must follow the rules of the matrix), the matrix assists the agents in avoiding a 'predictable' path...while in the kung-fu fights, the agents can be faster than even Trinity or Morpheus might imagine themselves to be, but they can't PREDICT, like with the bullets. So when Neo comes to his big realization, or whenever Morpheus or Trinity actually get a hit in on an agent, it's because their moves are NOT predictable. I didn't mean this to connect with the MwM theory, but it COULD be said that this shows that there really IS a real world, since the Matrix cannot save the agents from certain types of damage; like the kind it can't predict (ie-bullets). I'm sure there's a counter arguement that can also include my other idea, but now I can't believe that I'm actually expressing 'theories' instead of just pointing out gaps...*sigh* am I a believer now? 8^)
Spoon BoyAug 13, 2003 at 8:38PM
RYUUYR says:
Has anyone every wondered why Morpheus et al trust the Oracle in the first one? I mean...if they thought she was human, wouldn't they wonder where she was jacked in?
As a viewer, I always saw the Oracle as a software program. The idea that she was a jacked human with prophetic skills didn't make a whole lot of sense. One of the things that hit me hardest in M1 was the scene where the Oracle gave Neo a cookie. The symbolism contained in that scene was astounding when we compare it to our contemporary Information Age:
1. Oracle is the largest database company in the world today, bar none. The most robust and dependable information sources on the Net (google, yahoo, msn, ebay, etc.), are all driven by a backend that incudes an Oracle server. "Software powers the Internet." In our story, the Oracle is representing a database. She knows all. She is the source of information. She will tell you exactly what you need to hear.
2. A cookie, in techno-speak, is a software component that a web server will attach to your browser for behaviour tracking and future identification. This information (on large web applications) would typically be stored in the (Oracle) dbase.
So, when the Oracle gave Neo a cookie, it was probably one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
*Can a computer imagine a perfect circle if Pi is infinite?***
lol. Good one. How about,
**If an intelligent software program doesn't realize it's only a software program, can it identify other software programs?**
Spoon BoyAug 13, 2003 at 8:42PM
ps: Well, maybe not msn. :)
RYUUYRAug 13, 2003 at 9:01PM
Ok Spoonboy, like I said I have read your posts...you post SOOOO much...hehehehe. I disagree with your all encompassing theory from all your previous postings however...you seem too much like Morpheus believing the prophecy...no matter what we say, it's either wrong, or it goes along with your idea...hehehe. I'm joking of course...you have the most thought out ones...along with others, and that's for sure. As for cookies...if you really saw her as a program right off the bat, then you are indeed inspired...even WITH the cookie hint, which I have seen before, but which I read from you in the archive. I certainly see the significance, especially since learning more about computers in the last year, but my whole point was more of a possible production problem. This is based on the fact that no one ever 'says' that she's a program until Neo, seemingly, guesses it. I say he guesses it because he appears not to KNOW for sure, but the whole interaction with he and the Oracle in M2 is confirmation of course. In M1, you'd think someone would 'say' something. That's why I assumed she was a human in Zion, or on another ship (actually I figured, based on my ignorance of further examination, that she lived in some area within broadcast range, but not in Zion). It all makes sense NOW of course, but my whole issue is with the fact that in M2 it all seems that these rogue or sentient programs are a new thing to the citizens of Zion, Morph, Trin, et al...but something they can accept with little reaction (for whatever reasons you wish). In M1 though, as I've said above, it seems post facto to be simply a wish not to include a further thing for us to think about into the first installment by the filmakers. And even then, that's only if you believed that she was a program from the start. You COULD say that the cookie clue is their hint of being a program...but even some computer guys might not make that leap. It's devious for sure, but then we come to this: even though the clue was there...and some, like yourself, judged correctly, why is Neo surprised in M2? Again, as I've said above, I believe that he sees all programs NOT tied to the Matrix as gold/yellow code, but that the movie only shows us one example (Seraph). He puts that together with some other ideas he has, and makes a guess, he's right of course, but the fact that he guesses means that he didn't know already. If he didn't know, it's POSSIBLE that Morpheus didn't know either. Morpheus could be hiding something of course, but that's what I'm trying to understand. But IF Morpheus DIDN'T know, then why would he just TRUST her? An automatic reaction to something in the Matrix would seem to be that it's either someone from Zion 'jacked' in, or someone in a pod. This is just from M1 of course...we don't know otherwise until M2, as an audience of course. Suppositions aside, it wasn't OBVIOUS that there were rogue/sentient programs other than agents until M2 anyway. WHY would Morpheus put his trust, and why would any people before Morpheus (but within the same version of the Matrix as Morpheus) put their trust in someone who must either explain their identity as a sentient program, or must be connected to the matrix and therefore 'agent-bait', when we haven't seen any proof that there was any explanation of being a program??????? It's long winded...I'm sorry...just trying to be precise in my explanation...nothing worse than an extended idea that's based on a misconception...hehehehe. 8^)
***I can imagine a perfect circle because my mind doesn't construct ideas conciously through mathmatics, so does a computer have the same ability?***
Spoon BoyAug 13, 2003 at 11:56PM
RYUUYR says:
***I can imagine a perfect circle because my mind doesn't construct ideas conciously through mathmatics, so does a computer have the same ability?***
It cannot be proven that the circle you're imagining is perfect. I do like the question though. :)
why is Neo surprised in M2?
It didn't occur to me that Neo was surprised. I'll need to watch it again. I'm about due.
no one ever 'says' that she's a program until Neo, seemingly, guesses it.
Or realizes it.
I honestly didn't think the idea of the Oracle being a computer program was so far-fetched. By the time we meet the Oracle in M1, we have already learned about what the Matrix is. We've seen Neo break out of the pod, we've seen the Neb, we've gone into the simulation program with Morpheus for the PowerPoint presentation, we've seen the woman in the web dress. We've also met the Agents, who we by now know are software programs which are manifested into virtual bodies within this virtual world in which jacked folks interact with. The idea that the Oracle was also a virtual entity didn't seem that much of a stretch.
I do understand the nature of your question. You're concerned with what the characters are thinking. From their point of view. Good question.
I don't have an answer. But I do think you're probably the perfect person to answer a questions I've posted a couple times here, with no direct responses. Question #3 below is similar to your question, as it concerns what Neo is thinking about what has happened to him.
Here goes:
In The Matrix, Neo gets taken in by the agents for questioning. Not a good time. His mouth disappears and an electronic organic creature burrows itself into his navel, worming it's way inside...
...screaming, Neo bolts upright in bed. He takes inventory on his mouth and abdomen and realizes it was a dream. Or so he thinks?
We do know that the bug existed on the same plane of reality as his waking state, as Trinity removed it a bit later in the car. It can therefore be concluded that the interrogation wasn't a dream. Neo found that surprising. "That thing's real?!?!"
Questions:
1. How much time elapsed between the interrogation and waking up in bed? Is it the same night? Is it weeks later? Does Neo know?
2. Knowing what we know now, how do you suppose he got into bed? The last thing we saw was him flat out on the desk with the creature burrowing. Then he wakes up in bed. What happened between the desk and the bed?
3. Neo's surprise in the car clearly indicate that he didn't believe that the Agent/creature incident actually happened. He was therefore wrong. After Neo woke up, felt for his mouth, and concluded that the Agent/creature incident was a dream, what do you suppose he believed happend in the office on that crazy day where he was out on the ledge? Does he remember? If so, what?
Bake on...
RYUUYRAug 14, 2003 at 1:30AM
As I have said before, I am not here to suppose...hehehehe...of course I am...:
So, I will say that I doubt every theory here...all, or rather, most, are great, but none fulfill ALL the major evidence. I have no theory, that is why I am asking questions...any theories I propose are false...hehehehehe..
My bakèd noodle says: the question of Neo's apparant delusion, aka: his waking up to the 'post worm-in-the-naval thingy'...he most likely experienced the agent's invasion, so therefore, it's likely that they took him home. Problems: why would they take him home and not kill him? Why not erase his memories of the whole experience.???
These questions cannot be ansereed by me...I'm just asking them.
Many have answeres to those questions...these still are lacking. I think the architect wanted the ONE to get the source, but still...why wait all that time then? There must be a certain moment when he can predict where the ONE isgoing to be...
this is good night, so please, be gentle...hehehe...I'll c u all 2 morrow...
***whether I can imagine a real perfect circle, or an imagined perfect circle, what's the difference??? Can a computer really imagine even a 'pretend' perfect circle??? No...that's why the One needs to be reinserted...lol...how simple is that??? I'm drunk and tired...please tell me I'm waaaaaaaay off........................8^)
RYUUYRAug 14, 2003 at 1:37AM
I'm sorry I cannot answer better, perhaps when I think upon the question, then I'll be able to give an answer...a possible answer. Give me a few hours...I'll work out something...8^)
NumerologyFanAug 14, 2003 at 3:12AM
I think everybody here has read the Matrix final script more than 100 time :-P but... have you read the PREVIOUS versions of the plot? I fyou want to, here is my page It is very interesting to find, by example, that the Ws in the 96 script include Cypher and Morpheus telling Neo about the previous 5 Ones(!).
Have fun.
NumerologyFanAug 14, 2003 at 3:18AM
sorry about the page :( Maybe I was tricked by it? Its too slow to load
...or maybe the Agents have found it and deleted just to keep the truth off.
Insanitys. Just emailme to send them to you.
beza1e1Aug 14, 2003 at 4:13AM
Thanks NumerologyFan, but you should have said it is in the 1997 script, but not the 1996 one. Would have saved some reading time, though the rest is very interesting, too.
Here is a piece, but Morpheus talks a lot more:
NEO
And you still believe I'm the One?
MORPHEUS
Yes I do.
NEO
Yeah? What about the other five
guys? The five before me? What
about them?
Morpheus tries to hide his heart being wrenched from his
chest.
NEO
Did you believe in them too?
MORPHEUS
No. I did not. I have never told
anyone this, Neo. After I saw the
Oracle I thought... no, I
misunderstood what she told me. I
believed that it was all about me.
That I would find the One, not that
he would find me.
The real question is now: Did the W's change just the script afterwards or the whole story? Did Morpheus choose the five other Ones in the Matrix universe we experienced in the cinema or is this script obsolete?
If we take this facts into the theories, we can't see the Architect as allknowing god, but as a very subjective master control program, which would make him more a laughable little devil, than a real enemy.
beza1e1Aug 14, 2003 at 4:15AM
It worked just fine for me ... as you see above
bellAug 14, 2003 at 10:57AM
Does she want the people of Z10N to succeed and not just start the 7th matrix? That's what Morph would believe.
the oracles primary goal it would seem is to prevent the matrix from being destroyed, she mentions this to neo in m3 trailer that in order to save the matrix, he(smith) must be stopped.
morpheus has been manipulated by the oracle, manipulated in order to set neo on the path to his eventual meeting with the architect. I dont believe morph knows the oracle is a program, though he ,may have been manipulated into beleving her to be human, a human with a great deal of insight. the oracle must have pulled a few tricks to convince him. then again when someone is so utterly lost and helpless against a aggresser that seems invincible an indivdual (morpheus) is most vulnerable and can be convinced of anything. if zion is in the matrix it is safe to assume that morph was nurterd by the matrix to fullfill his role, the role that comes to pass of believing in the prophesy and finding the one.
RYUUYRAug 14, 2003 at 11:17AM
But bell, what could the Oracle POSSIBLY say to Morph, even given that he's prone to delusions when it comes to his destiny (did he even believe the prophecy before meeting the Oracle?), to convince him that, if she was saying she was human, she wasn't going to turn into an agent any second??? Morpheus has his beliefs, but he knows the possibility of danger when he sees it, and his blindness can only go so far. I can understand that unless the person can't believe what they see, the agents most likely won't notice anything through their earpieces, but still, is that all she'd have to say to Morph and all the others? It's possible...but I think that she'd HAVE to explain her existence as a rogue program that would help them...I'm sure she could convince him of that...but then there is evidence of them NOT knowing anything about programs other than the agents. That supercedes any possibility of the humans knowing that she is one...in the early script, it gives the impression that she's a human connected to the matrix through this 'temple of zion' thing...somehow not on a ship but still within broadcast range, but it's only am impression, it doesn't say either. Too many questions...I hate when the only explanation is either really crazy or a writing/production flaw...*sigh* I hope that isn't the case here...
bellAug 14, 2003 at 11:17AM
i believe all main protaganists to be non reactive due to the fact that they are either A.I. or machines or programs. Neo is reactive, there is no input on his part, neo is basically a donkey led by a carrot. the main protaganist's seem to take every thing at face value, and if that proves to wrong they except the new truth readily if it fits within the parameters of the prophesy of the one, as they have been utterly brainwashed into believing in the prophesy. what morph percieves as fate, is in truth all encompassing control. everything that happened in m2 was meant to happen it is all by design.
niobe: how do you know this
keymaker: it is my purpose to know, its why im here, its why we are all here.
question? does the keymaker think or know he is addressing other programs in this scene? as by design the keymaker helps neo it is his purpose, so in turn every one a party to helping neo reach the architect is also there by design.
i think it was spoonboy who asked this, regarding neo waking up after interigation. as neo is still connected to the matrix (though i still think he is connected) time is fragmented, the matrix would have placed him back in his room in order to confuse him into thinking he was only dreaming when the bug was placed inside him. remember neo is not the primary target of the matrix in this plot strand, they bug neo in order to find morpheus. Though i believe this tracking down of morpheus is part of an elaborate plan to gently nudge neo into beleiving in whatever speal/bullshit morpheus tells him. m1 is all about manipulating neo into buying into the prophesy of the one as that is the first step toward reaching the architect. so anything that happens in m1 is really all about neo, it is an ingenius and dense elaborate set of directives that are designed to manipulate neo/anomoly, the w's are very clever people, though not as clever as me...
bellAug 14, 2003 at 11:24AM
ryuuyr, the beauty of m1 and m2 at this stage is that u can theorise indefinately hence this forever increasing thread, though im sure the outcome will encompass most of what we have talked about. and perhaps many theories on this thread will be true, within a larger whole. once we know the larger whole everything will fit im sure, as i have faith in the w's. but...the search is often more fullfilling than the find...the im sure after m3, there will be many ambigues element that deserve closer inspection...here's hoping
bellAug 14, 2003 at 11:43AM
RYUUYR says:
But bell, what could the Oracle POSSIBLY say to Morph, even given that he's prone to delusions when it comes to his destiny (did he even believe the prophecy before meeting the Oracle?),
bliind faith clouds judgement, a need for answers perhaps blinded morph from the obvious. morph's faith in the oracle is not based on logic but on emotion, ive known fanatics who do not let logic enter into there belief's as they are lieing to themselves, and more often than not when logic seeps in there belief structure colapses. maybe morpheus has doubts, but if he acknowledged his doubts and non sensical elements of his faith, that would take away alot of his purpose in life...what would morpheus have left without his faith, even though it is a lie.
an interesting point regarding your question; morpheus in m1 says that meeting the oracle changed his life etc etc, but later he states that he has been searching all his life. this could mean that say yesterday at the age of 40 evrything in his life attained a focus, a direction. though one might say that they having be searching for whatever thing they are looking for all there lives, but only realised what it was yesterday.
GhostAug 14, 2003 at 11:45AM
Just another thought on the Oracle. She if you haven’t noticed she has a way of eluding questions and not giving information clearly.
Morph: "She would say she knows enough"
Just an example of how she can manipulate a question and elude a straight answer.
When they talked to her it's very possible they never got that far to inquire.
bellAug 14, 2003 at 11:51AM
that last paragraph does not make sense, sorry...it's seriously hot in this part of the world.
bellAug 14, 2003 at 11:56AM
good point ghost, morph would be to much in awe of her to doubt her, as i said blind faith. neo trust's morph in m1 so, as morph trusts the oracle , in turn this leads neo into trusting the oracle to a degree. Plus the oracle is alway's using her party tricks; vase falling to floor etc, these tactics/party tricks are designed to shift focus and as the oracle illustrates, work quite well
beza1e1Aug 14, 2003 at 12:44PM
I simply don't want the Oracle to be a bad, manipulating girl. I don't like the black-and-white-painting this everything-is-a-lie-and-a-conspiracy-theory does.
Matrix somehow manages to give every myth a reason. Werewolfs and Aliens are just rouge programs. Neo has superpowers, because he is a Matrix-hacker. In this line it would make sense that the Oracle can forsee, because she helps to fullfil the plan.
But on the other hand it would be cheap to explain the crashing vase as just a party trick. This would be heavily disappointing.
I think m3 will raise much discussion, because the W's can never manage to fullfil everybodys expectations, how the Matrix should end. It will be disappoint for many, either because it was too obvious or is a deus-ex-machina experience.
beza1e1Aug 14, 2003 at 12:53PM
I watched the trailer again. The dialog between Niobe and Ghost, could it be right after the crash in the end of Enter the Matrix? Which would be the start of m3.
The laughing Smith in the Oracles kitchen could als laugh in a crazy way, perhaps he gets more and more mad.
There is a lot of fighting in Zion, which is of course necessary and very dramatic.
What is this rushing into the disco, with these green lasers? Morpheus and Trinity are in the Matrix on some kind of quest, like in m2.
GhostAug 14, 2003 at 2:05PM
I got to ponder your untouched question and it sucks.
Try this one: If Neo went back to work would his boss remember giving his the speech? The Agents would have to erase the memory of the entire day from everyone or implant the memory of the end of the day in Neo. They didn’t implant the memory in Neo because he recalls the bug and I don’t think they erased everyone’s memories.
But either way we wont know. The only logical explanation is that it doesn’t matter to them. They know he’ll go to Morph and they’ll catch and kill everyone, so screw it. They were going to kill him but Smith stopped them and said that he was going to use Neo. So they don’t have to hide what happened he not going to be around long enough to question it. To them he’s dead. Neo just justified the happening as a dream. Neo just blanked out and the time that elapsed could have very well been the same night or a week then they brought him and set him in bed. But he remembers everything and so does his co-workers and boss.
I think your real question is what kind of power or control do the Agents really have.
I know the Agents can’t turn matrix time back or stop it like Dark City. So he can’t wake up at the beginning of the previous day and everything is the same.
I’m not sure if the agents can alter memories. But they might be able to. In that light they could (like I said before) either erase the memory of the previous day in everyone’s mind or implant the memory of the supposed day in Neo.
They do however have the power to change reality in the present like shutting Neo’s mouth or changing the building. But I think they need a sufficient amount of time ahead and they can’t do something huge (like fixing a skyscraper that was just destroyed). Too many minds would wake up.
It only makes sense. Why what do you think happened?
RYUUYRAug 14, 2003 at 2:54PM
It seems that no one thinks I understand about fanatical behaviour...I do indeed. I guess I should make myself more clear. It's OBVIOUS that Morpheus is deluded by the Oracle, whether she's benevolant or not, but my point is that DESPITE this, he still uses his head in other cases. If he was so blind as you all seem to think, why does he bother doing anything? Wouldn't he just figure everything would happen the way it should as long as all the players are in their places? It is apparant that he's not that extreme since he makes decisions (this isn't going to get into whether or not he's really making choices, blah blah...that's for somewhere else), he comes up with ideas...in his mind, these would be part of the purpose, but it DOES illustrate that he is a pragmatic person also. He knows that what he sees isn't always what it appears to be (one of the main things about M1), so although he might be misled or blinded by the Oracle, he's still a leader. I know fanatics who won't even HEAR anything against their belief, but I know fanatics who NEED to have everything spelled out for them. In fact, much of the modern Catholic church's ideas came from Bishops and others getting together and trying to make sense of the bible, to explain where these things come from. These people WERE fanatics, they believed completely, and most likely they would have done whatever was asked of them if they felt it was divine...BUT, they still want explanations at some point. I cannot believe that Morpheus or ANYONE for that matter would not at least for ONE SECOND wonder about the Oracle and her nature within the matrix. I don't know how else I can word it, it all ends up sounding like I'm repeating myself...I don't want to get all annoying...hehehehe...I just can't put it into words I guess, but no one's yet touched on my actual questions...just what my questions seem to be. I'll have to find a way to word it better (for myself if anyone)...
GhostAug 14, 2003 at 3:31PM
First my above post was the answer to Spoon Boy.
RYUUYR these are the Only Possible Scenarios:
1. Morph knows and didn't tell.
2. Morph doesn’t know.
As far as him knowing and not telling he has a reason and it will be revealed.
If he doesn’t know then there are a few possible scenarios:
1. He never thought about it.
2. He never asked.
3. He was lied to or tricked.
4. He asked and never got an answer.
What do you think is the most obvious answer?
SajjmanAug 14, 2003 at 5:36PM
Good one ghost ;)
i'd go with 3, who said the oracle wouldnt lie for the greater good ? Or the "real" purpose , or nr 4 that she didnt answer or gave an cryptic answer like she does.
Spoon BoyAug 14, 2003 at 6:52PM
What do you think is the most obvious answer?
Both 1 and 2, which could probably be regarded as the same thing.
If Neo went back to work would his boss remember giving his the speech?
Probably. But are you even sure the boss is a jacked human in the first place? Early on in the thread, somebody posted insight that Metacortex was a software development firm that was actually writing the code for the Matrix itself.
To speculate, do you suppose anybody (friends, family, co-workers) has filed a Missing Person report on Tom Anderson yet?
Spoon BoyAug 14, 2003 at 7:27PM
Ghost says...
(yada yada yada)...Why what do you think happened?
I take it you're referring to the the course of events between the navel creature and the waking up screaming, yes?
I'm still not convinced it wasn't a dream. When you think about it, is the Matrix that much unlike a dream anyway? You've got people in pods, their physical bodies inactive, their minds active.
I remember the first time watching M1, when Neo woke up, I was under the impression that "it was all a dream". Over the course of the next 15 minutes or so in the film, that notion was buried when he came out of the pod. But I still find things unclear regarding the course of those events leading up to the awakening in bed.
Everything about the Matrix world is similar to a dream state, and there are elements in the story that refer to the theme of dreams (Morpheus was the God of Dreams, Nebuchadnezzar was a king especially known for his dreams, Alice in Wonderland was a story of a girl who had a dream, and so on.)
Where the line is drawn between that which is a dream and that which isn't, or rather, what is real and what is artificial, is really what the story is all about.
You ever have that feeling that your not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?
Wake up Neo...
beza1e1Aug 15, 2003 at 7:44AM
Morpheus possible first encounter with the Oracle:
Morpheus enters the room
Oracle: So you are Morpheus.
Morpheus: Who did you tell that and who are you?
Oracle: I think you would call me an Oracle or something
Oracle pulls out a plate with some cake
Morpheus: Oracle? So you can see the future?
Oracle: Bingo ... do you want to have some piece of cake? No, you don't.
Morpheus: Why are you asking anyway?
Oracle: I'm just polite.
Morpheus: I can't believe in you. You are tricking me.
Oracle: You needn't believe in me, but you will believe in someone else.
Morpheus: Uh? What do you mean?
Morpheus takes down his glasses
Oracle: You know the story about the man, who could change the Matrix. He will come back and you will find him. *she smiles* Don't mind them, my kids will fix it.
Morpheus: What?
Morpheus brakes his glasses
Oracle: My kids will fix it. Just walk through the door and ask the boy with the spoon ... and don't forget to take some piece of the cake it tastes very well.
Morpheus walks out, very confused
Is this case 3 or 4?
Neos wake up:
Perhaps after they inserted the bug, they injected some sedative (like Morpheus later) and brought him back home. A strong sedative could cause some blackout like after some party, when you wake up and don't know where you are und who the f**k is the ugly girl beside you?!
The W's choose to blend this out, because this way the audience thinks like Neo it was a dream.
bellAug 15, 2003 at 7:44AM
Where the line is drawn between that which is a dream and that which isn't, or rather, what is real and what is artificial, is really what the story is all about.
that is the bottom line, every thing is fake, a fabrication a simularcrum. and because of this neo will be forever manipulated until he does infact wake up, as many have said before and i included believe the real world (though im not sure what that means anymore, in this throw away copied cultured of ours (western world)), has not been represented in these films as yet. perhaps we will see a dark city type ending, or perhaps earth is a paradise and every thing weve seen is all in 01, where either A.I. or humans are captive. perhaps the planet is so inhospitable that humans can only survive in the matrix and the machines are doing them a bi favour by trying to keep them in there.
was anyone effect by the blackouts in the states?
beza1e1Aug 15, 2003 at 7:47AM
sorry for double posting i got an error first and refreshed ...
bellAug 15, 2003 at 7:48AM
bezale good mate!, morpheus could have left the oracle and not believed a word concievably, then say one of the things she told him came true, lets say in zion. morph would believe in her after that thinking zion is real, so he would assume she must have power/insight etc...
bellAug 15, 2003 at 8:09AM
ryuuyr, if zion is in the matrix, it is safe to assume that the matrix would mould/nurture him into a gulible bafoon. morph was bred to believe the oracle, i think this point stands even if zion is real, rembember morpheus lived part of his life in the dictatorship of the matrix, within in the matrix you could mould an individual personality into anything you wanted.
bellAug 15, 2003 at 8:58AM
spooboy says:To speculate, do you suppose anybody (friends, family, co-workers) has filed a Missing Person report on Tom Anderson yet?
i would say no, neo is a recluse, has no friend or familiy, he recollects nothing at all, regarding the past. all main protaganists in m1/m2 lack a certain amount of charactor depth, which leads me to the conclusion that they are A.I.
bellAug 15, 2003 at 9:15AM
when the sentinal's fly toward neo at the end of m2, one would assume that writen in their programjming there would be a do not harm the one/anomaly. forget neo collapsing for a second, but lets say neo did not react to the sqiddies, surely who ever controls them would not want them to harm neo/one/anomoly. has neo has not fullfilled his purpose.
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 9:30AM
Powers Back!! I was as blacked as Neo after The Squids.
Is that Oracle/Morph script legit?
bellAug 15, 2003 at 9:32AM
what if within the matrix, A.I. was created by metracorps which in turn escalated into a war between man and machine, and a matrix was created by the victors within the matrix. and humans or machines were placed inside this matrix that is inside the matrix...and what if a matrix was created by the victor of another battle between man and machine in the matrix that is inside the matrix, and the victors of that war created a matrix within the matrix which is within the MATRIX...to house the humans or machines...
bellAug 15, 2003 at 9:35AM
ghost glad ure powers back on , no i think bezale was hypothosizing
bellAug 15, 2003 at 9:45AM
the blackout was an a illustration of our over reliance on technology and the choas that ensues when we are deprived of such power. welcome to the desert of the real...
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 10:03AM
HA...
beza1e1Aug 15, 2003 at 10:17AM
The Oracle/Morpheus script is just a fantasy! Its from me, not the W's. I don't want to spread any false stories. Amazing it sounds legit to you.
It was fun to write it, perhaps i should do some more? :-P
bell, if the sentinels are programmed not to harm Neo, they should be glad the bomb didn't kill him. This theory stands only within the Matrix-in-Matrix theory.
A thing i stumpled upon regarding EMP. An ElectroMagnetical Pulse destroys elecronical things. The pulse induces electrical power so strong that it just burns the cable. And EMP would set your PC on fire! The rebels have these connection in their neck and there must be some wires to their brain. An EMP would affect those wires and their brains would be burned. Where is my error? Or is it just a movie EMP like many others?
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 10:32AM
Future metals... Mabey not affected...
bellAug 15, 2003 at 10:44AM
maybe emp blasts just never go of at all in m1/m2, just the illusion of an emp (because nothing is real), surely the w's would not ignore the laws of physics...they are so thorough else where regarding the films...
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 11:02AM
beza1e1
I thought a EMP would just effect things with electrical current running threw them at the time of the blast? Are you sure it would Burn everything?
bellAug 15, 2003 at 11:05AM
An Electromagnetic pulse is a burst of electromagnetic energy produced by a nuclear or warp explosion in the atmosphere, considered capable of widespread damage to power lines, telecommunications, and electronic equipment.
EMP is rated like any other effect, from 1 to 5. Every piece of electrical or electronic equipment has a hardning rating which it used to resist EMP effects.
Should a device succumb to EMP then it is damaged and will require repair and component replacement.
EMP should not be mistaken for Haywire which is much more powerful and destructive.
bellAug 15, 2003 at 11:11AM
emp will not burn anything, though if it effects live electrical components, that obviously will start a fire if there are flamable materials in close proximity...
bellAug 15, 2003 at 11:15AM
though haywire on the other hand...Haywire is somewhat analogous to EMP effects in that it damages electronic systems. However the effect has been tempered with a quantum electrical inversion that does more than just damage electronics, it completely and utterly destroys them.
Normally one would protect ones self from electromagnetic effects by using a crystalline material that would absorb the EMP and dissipate it hamelssly, as demonstrated by an EMP Sponge. When EMP sponges are affected by Haywire they do offer limited protection; every EMP sponge present absorbs the damage and is simultaneously destroyed in the process.
In terms of game mechanics, Haywire cannot be resisted using a Hardening Rating. If a device has any EMP sponges installed then upon the first haywire EVERY EMP sponge will be destroyed to protect the device. On the second Haywire however, the device is destroyed.
Haywire is a Global effect.
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 11:17AM
But would it in real life effect the ship in a negitive way if the ship was off?
bellAug 15, 2003 at 11:40AM
Zion's Councilor West states that "Comprehension is not
requisite of cooperation." to commander lock, is he refering to cooperation between lock and himself, or is he eluding to a possible peace treaty of sort's between, man/machine or machine and man depending of course on who is the jailer and who is the prisoner? it still niggles me that the council know something!
bellAug 15, 2003 at 11:42AM
if anything electrical is of, so there is no charge, no connection to a power source the emp would have no effect.
bellAug 15, 2003 at 11:44AM
thats why the neb powers down at the end of m1, though they did'nt power down until neo was jacked out of the matrix.
bellAug 15, 2003 at 11:58AM
questioin: so why arent the sentinals coated in a crystalline material that would absorb the EMP and dissipate it hamelssly? this is the sixth time they've attacked zion, surely they would upgrade the sentinal at some point, make them more efficient! answer: the sentinals are designed to be defeated. Everything is by design.
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 1:11PM
Bell your going to be pretty upset when you find out that the MWM is not true. :-)
Can someone please advise me of the current status of Z10N @ the end of the Movie. It's unclear as to whether they have time left or if Z10N is gone. Also why would the machines leave Smith? Their purpose is to seek and kill. Plus I don't think they would leave him alive even if they knew it was him, and I don't think they could know.
Also I came to the realization that the Animatrixs are not for our entertainment. Each one is there to show us a point. Like the Kids Story is there to show that someone can will him or herself out and introduce us to that character. Each One IS Something Specific That Needs To Be Learned To Realize The Whole B166ER picture. Think about it.
Spoon BoyAug 15, 2003 at 2:45PM
Ghost says:
Can someone please advise me of the current status of Z10N @ the end of the Movie. It's unclear as to whether they have time left or if Z10N is gone.
Zion still exists. It was the diversion crew, under the command of Locke, that got hammered by the sentinels outside the gates of Z10N.
Also why would the machines leave Smith?
Not sure if I understand the question. It seems to be assuming that the machines are in kahoots with Smith and working as a single unit with the Agents, which isn't necessarily the case.
Also I came to the realization that the Animatrixs are not for our entertainment. Each one is there to show us a point. Like the Kids Story is there to show that someone can will him or herself out and introduce us to that character. Each One IS Something Specific That Needs To Be Learned To Realize The Whole B166ER picture.
Pretty entertaining if you ask me! :)
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 3:10PM
Interesting: Entertainment Not for the sake of entertaining is entertaining because it's not for the sake of entertaining. :-)
Now this may make me sound really nieve but I was under the impression that the ship that rescued Neo, Morph, and Trin was the same ship that had Smith on it. I am almost certain that I picked up some info stating that, that ship had went amidst the rubble of what was left of Z10N and the only survivor left was Smith.
If that isn't true then I guess I’ll have to spend another $7.50 and not drink so much soda. :)
I've only seen it twice :(
Spoon BoyAug 15, 2003 at 4:03PM
Ghost says:
I was under the impression that the ship that rescued Neo, Morph, and Trin was the same ship that had Smith on it. I am almost certain that I picked up some info stating that, that ship had went amidst the rubble of what was left of Z10N and the only survivor left was Smith.
Yes, it was the same ship that had Smith, but don't forget that the heroes don't know this. They still see him as Bane.
Entertainment Not for the sake of entertaining is entertaining because it's not for the sake of entertaining.
lol, exactly. One man's entertainment is another man's chore. Hell, I take IQ tests for fun!
GhostAug 15, 2003 at 5:28PM
Before I go on Vacation (so I won't be posting or reading until 08/25) I’d like to queue you into something else to talk about that hasn't been discussed. Mabey ya guys can throw it around.
From the first time I saw the matrix I saw many strong relationships to drug use. Now I’m not saying that there is more drug symbolism then religious, but if you look at the movies there is a strong undertow.
First of all when the W's were asked where they got the idea for the movie, they stated "designer drugs".
Then you have the Alice in Wonderland theme and everyone knows that book was written with a drug undercurrent as strong as the song Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.
Then you have the food theme. As we discussed before the theme is there but if you look at the food given and the kiss from drug not program perspective it still works. Obviously the Pills given go to that theme.
1. Neo: "Not sure if you’re awake or still dreaming."
ANTHONY: "Mescaline, it's the only way to fly."
2. "Free Your Mind"
3. MORPHEUS: "You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
4. Cookies and Candy.
5. Changing perceptions of reality...etc
I have to admit that there is a drug theme related to this movie. Anyone agree?
Spoon BoyAug 15, 2003 at 7:48PM
Ghost says:
I have to admit that there is a drug theme related to this movie. Anyone agree?
No comment. ;)
NumerologyFanAug 15, 2003 at 11:51PM
Sponboy says: To speculate, do you suppose anybody (friends, family, co-workers) has filed a Missing Person report on Tom Anderson yet?
bell says: would say no, neo is a recluse, has no friend or familiy, he recollects nothing at all, regarding the past.
Just about it.
Let's think: in the previous M1 scripts, (where all looks like ending in only one film, and Mophs tells Neo about the previous 5, e.g.) Neo Indeed HAS family and friends, that he left to go to Chicago (yes, in the 97 he goes there just to meet Morphs).
Underg disco scene:
TRINITY (in 1997 M1 script)
Please. Just listen. I know why
you're here, Neo. I know why you
left your family and your friends,
why you left your home to come to
this city. You're looking for him.
...
NumerologyFanAug 16, 2003 at 12:14AM
Just a thought I maybe keep to me:
I posted before abou Neo being the 6 and the previous 5, and bla bla. But have you realized Actually Neo died...
ORACLE
Sorry, kid. You got the gift but
looks like you're waiting for
something.
NEO
What?
ORACLE
Your next life, maybe. Who knows.
That's how these things go.
...
... AND He is in his NEXT life, ERGO He is really the 7th.
That is my point today: Does Trinity's kiss brought him BACK to life? Or Does it instead Give him a NEW life?
In that case, He is my so-seeked Ones-Fullfilment. :-P
Just Wondering.
Or am I losing it again?
ps: Has anyone found Meaning for the room 808 and the "eight floor. They are in the eight floor" , where the crew tries to escape and Morpheus embraces his life-long-friend Smith?:-P
NumerologyFanAug 16, 2003 at 1:02AM
(Please forgive me for posting so much space in a single day :-P)
AGENT SMITH
I hate this place. This zoo. This
prison. This reality, whatever you
want to call it, I can't stand it
any longer. I must get out of here,
I must get free.
AGENT SMITH
Once Zion is destroyed, there is no
need for me to be here. Do you
understand? I need the codes. I
have to get inside Zion.
And where the hell is going Smith "Once Zion is destroyed"? Does he believe in a super-agent-ural Heaven for them? Does he instead wanna be Recycled at The Source (remember he is the only one at M1, besides the Oracle, who knows about it)?
... and him wanting "to get inside Zion"... Sometimes I think in M1 he Hhhhhhates humans because they are kind of free, what he isnt, but when he "is set free", he STILL wants to get inside Zion, ... ad he does, in Bane's. He does change his mind, or maybe the monologue he give Morpheus is just by envy.
...
Just losing it...
beza1e1Aug 16, 2003 at 8:20AM
I don't think Smith thinks about the sense of his aims. My browser has the task to let me access webservers and show me nice HTML-pages. Do you think it thinks about the sense in this? Will it go into some kind of super-browser-ural Heaven? Smith is just a program, not a philospher.
The trailer mentions "12 hours left until Zion is destroyed"
EMP affects uncharged wires as well! Do you know how a dynamo works? Its the same wether you move a magnet along a wire or let lose a EMP. Both change the electromagnetical field, which induces electrical energie and very much of it, so the wires acts like the wire in a bulb. It starts glowing ...
Tom PaineAug 16, 2003 at 1:33PM
The scene in the Matrix Reloaded where Neo grabs the steel pole and rips it out of the concrete pavement. notice that the pole is just to the right of his right foot. but he reaches across and grabs it with his LEFT hand. hummmm... i bet he would vote Democrat!!!!! (-:
---tomster
Spoon BoyAug 16, 2003 at 1:58PM
NumerologyFan says:
And where the hell is going Smith "Once Zion is destroyed"?
It's not about where Smith wants to go. It's about where Smith doesn't want to be. As an Agent, he has a purpose. A responsibility to remain in the Matrix and fight the Zion resistance. That is the only reason for his existence.
He hates this situation. He wants no part of this anymore. He'd rather be non-existent than to remain in this "place" ... this "hell" ... whatever you want to call it. He desires suicide, but he doesn't have the power to take himself out.
His reasoning is that if the Zion resistance no longer existed, he'd have no purpose anymore. That's fine with him. He'd be relieved of the responsibility that has become such a burden.
We know computer programs do not have the capacity to think this way, to rationalize, to be selfish, to be suicidal. But the story is about Artificial Intelligence, which takes the whole concept of computer programs to a new level.
NumerologyFanAug 17, 2003 at 12:00AM
beza1e1 says:
Smith is just a program, not a philospher.
Hey bez, in the W's films, everybody is a philosopher :-D
beza1e1Aug 17, 2003 at 7:46AM
lol
Ok, but Smiths reactions and actions can all be explained in program logic. He must not be part of any conspiracy or know anything more than we. Perhaps the conspiracy (if there is any) uses him, but "he knows nothing".
With conspiracy he mean some greater plan we don't know yet, of course the Matrix is a conspiracy for the imprisoned humans.
Old_GobboAug 17, 2003 at 1:53PM
Just a quick comment...
We all remember the scene with Cypher and Smith, Cypher is content to live in a world of complacency and illusion..
Now, this could either be some ironic joke in reference to a possible MwM.. but I think it's too blatent to be -just- that
as well it also pretty much disproves all this shit I've been hearing about "oh Neo is the only human" because Cypher does his little deal in secret. If Cypher really was a computer why would he do that? Sure it makes sense that he might if was to play some part in a greater design created by the Tech.. but it's purely behind Neo's back, it doesn't make sense unless Cypher is human.
Why is it none of you are paying attention to what the Oracle says: "NEO'S MIND IS TRAPPED BETWEEN YOUR WORLD AND OURS"
Now we know Bane is also unconcious.. which means him and Neo are trapped on some plane of existence somewhere and will have to have it out in 1 giagantic battle final
Now this, as well as the whole Zion battle is going to take quite a bit of time.. you guys have to remember this is only a movie, there just isn't enough time for some of the stuff I've been hearing
1 more thing.. someone mentioned at the end of M1 when NEo is talking on the phone to whoever that that might actually be the end of the trilogy. Now I don't know how likely that is... but any ideas on who he is talking to?
can he just dail 10-10-4Agents or could he possibly be talking to someone in the "real" world? I can't remember exactly what he says but it's something like "when I hang up this phone I'm going to show these people the world you don't want them to see"
That -could- still apply if he was talking to a "real" person in the outside world which does give the MwM theory a bit of credit
I dunno.. bake on
ctm3Aug 18, 2003 at 2:34AM
Weird how I've seen the matrix a lot, and now I just got around to listening to the commentary on the dvd and also noticing details I had not before (although I'm sure you guys have). So far I'm still near the beginning but I found it funny that when asked to explain something about travelling through the phone, he decides not to say anything about it.
I also noticed on neos screen when he wakes up, the articles about Morpheous and how he escaped police at heathrow. Then theres the arabic stuff that appears. Hmm, cradle of life city in the middle east of 01.
I also saw the two 'in red' ladies when neo was getting in the car. And lots of signs and numbers and writings everywhere that are probably just signs and numbers :)
Hope I get to see some more stuff I missed as I go through it again.
beza1e1Aug 18, 2003 at 4:23AM
Thanks Old_Gobbo for backing up against the MwM theory :)
I think Neo told the machines, he will now start to free the people. There is a lot of time between m1 and m2. Dozer died, they got Link. Link was on the Neb for a long time, as his wife complains. Morhpeus mentiones six months (we freed more people in the last six months, than in the last six years), perhaps this is the time span we are talking about. I can't remeber the english text, but the german translation uses a plural form of "you" in the speech.
So far I'm still near the beginning but I found it funny that when asked to explain something about travelling through the phone, he decides not to say anything about it.
You don't understand why they travel through the phone lines? I don't understand your sentence. Who is "he"?
bellAug 18, 2003 at 5:14AM
spoonboy says:It's not about where Smith wants to go. It's about where Smith doesn't want to be. As an Agent, he has a purpose.
what if smith was programmed to act the way he does in the m1 in the morpheus scene, as that is part of his design, and in turn would lead him to his conflict and destruction, with neo and become multipul smith. smith was programmed to be an antaganist. eg if agent brown or agent jones were destroyed by neo and then returned multipul they would be different to smith one would assume.
ctm3 says:
Weird how I've seen the matrix a lot, and now I just got around to listening to the commentary on the dvd
i did'nt know you could get matrix with commentary, well not in england anyway, what on the disc?
old-gobbo says:Why is it none of you are paying attention to what the Oracle says: "NEO'S MIND IS TRAPPED BETWEEN YOUR WORLD AND OURS"
it could be that neo's mind is trapped between two systems, notably matrix and zion. a kind of buffer between the 2 perhaps. though it way just all be part of the matrix/oracle decieving or testing trin and co. as if the MwM theory is right everything is a lie anyway...Ghost you're right, i do dingle mindedly believe in the mwm theory, i think i would be disappointed if it werent the case, as i think all other theories ive heard just dont explain all the different elements that have been idetified on this thread, have a good vacation.
bellAug 18, 2003 at 5:41AM
old-gobbo says:1 more thing.. someone mentioned at the end of M1 when NEo is talking on the phone to whoever that that might actually be the end of the trilogy. Now I don't know how likely that is... but any ideas on who he is talking to?
its not the end of the trilogy as you probably know, one would assume neo does not know who he is talking to, other than the system that is at that moment in time oppressing humans( or A.I.).
though as the architect's screen's appear mid way through the movies when neo is being interogated by smith/brown/jones, one would assume the architect is listening. Also you must remember when neo speaks on the phone he is living a lie at this point, as morpheus has blagged him into beleiving in the prophesy, which we now know is a load of bull, so neo is assuming the role of moses/christ.
bellAug 18, 2003 at 7:17AM
found this article on the web...there not that much given away, though thought you might be interested...
--"NEO AND TRINITY GET MARRIED." Keanu Reeves is joking. Come to think of it, maybe he's not. Following "Matrix" publicity protocol, the star really isn't yapping much about the third and final (we think) installment in the sci-fi series. Still, he has a few general tips. "There's a battle between Zion and the machines," he says. "And the relationship between Agent Smith and Neo is resolved. And some questions of the journey of Neo as The One are answered. And lots of surprises." One of which, we're guessing, is a much-talked-about 14-minute, low-altitude helicopter chase. Most of our favorite characters are also back, including cyber-sexpot Monica Belucci as Persephone and Jada Pinkett Smith, whose Niobe continues to lead the rebellion against those oppresive scraps of metal. "I'm more involved in the story," says Pinkett Smith. "I help save the day, and you see my love story with Laurence resolved." Still, she adds, "I don't think anybody gets married."
But let's go back and talk about "Reloaded" for a minute. The movie will gross $280 million domestically, but critics generally weren't pleased, and, as things played out, summertime audiences cared more about a talking fish than ***-kicking computer viruses. "The second movie is always the toughest one in a trilogy," says series executive producer Bruce Berman, who is confident that viewers will flock to the third installment. They'd better. Warner Bros. and Berman's Village Roadshow took a risk when they shot both "Matrix" sequels simultaneously over 18 months in California and Australia-a great plan if interest builds in the series (see "The Lord of the Rings"), but potentially deadly if people decide they've just had enough ("Back to the Future").
Also complicating things is the continued silence of the Wachowski Brothers, who don't do any press. "Why would they want to give answers to something that's about searching for yourself?" says Reeves. He's got a point, but the shroud of mystery surrounding the writer-directors got a little tattered earlier this year when older sibling Larry showed up to "Reloaded's L.A. premiere dressed kinda funny with a supposed dominatrix on his arm. "Did that happen?" Reeves asks seriously. "I don't remember that." So HE'S the one. WHAT'S AT STAKE The Wachowski's future. Their reputation as Hollywood's most innovative filmmakers may depend on whether they can reload the wow factor they had with the first "Matrix".--
beza1e1Aug 18, 2003 at 7:54AM
Hm we get some infos about the action, but nearly nothing about th e plot.
bell, i am not sure the prophecy is wrong. Perhaps the misinterpretated it. In every story they do.
I stumpled upon Spoonboys phrase about Smith:
His reasoning is that if the Zion resistance no longer existed, he'd have no purpose anymore.
Smith used the word purpose in the burly brawl. As far as i remember: I'll take from you [Neo], what you have taken from me. Purpose. He lost it and he wants it back from Neo.
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 8:03AM
i get ure point bezale1, but i sense that the agenda of smith has changed somewhat, since his tranformation, and perhaps what smith said in m1 should not always relate to what he says in m2.
also when smith speaks of zion's resistance, maybe he his eluding to the fact that once the matrix has been reset he can leave (to where? is there some program paradise outside the matrix?) but if the matrix is reset when the zion codes are found by smith, smith at some point would have to return to the matrix, wouldnt he? when the anomoly reaches, lets say maturity...it's confusing! i think smith in m1 could be just fullfilling his programming with every actio he makes, every thing he states etc...
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 8:07AM
...assuming smith is a program!!!
i cant get away from the fact that every that has happend in m1 and m2 was meant to happen, and was going to happen no matter what. and that the architect is manipulating all that goes on in order to fullfill his need, 100% acceptance etc...
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 8:40AM
can anyone verify if the dates as mentioned in this post i found are correct...
(HUGE SPOILER) Neo's phone call in the Matrix is at THE END of Revolutions!
This goes deep, so follow me if you will:
The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".
The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!
If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo (probably sometime in 1998) and completed the rehab sometime in 1999: Morpheus tells Neo "you believe it's 1999 when infact it's closer to...".
Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place prior to 9-18-99. Here's why:
Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).
We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.
In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!
Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".
One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.
My guess is that there is no MiM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!
I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 9:03AM
WARNING! (just in case!). right i found this on the net, and im not sure what to make of it. one thing for sure whoever wrote this has a good imagination. There are some fantastic picture's, worth a look certainly...
http://www.xzaust.com/index.php?page=matrix
beza1e1 (not MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 9:36AM
Nearly all the pictures are from the trailer ... the theory is good. The mother of the matrix is missing, isn't she? The Matrix must survives thats sure, because of the Onlinegame. Nobody explains how Neo can be in the Matrix without a wire. Kid is the One, then who is Neo? Morpheus found the One "indirectly" is somehow lame. This story is pretty wierd, not impossible, but not really satisfiy either. But i like it more the MwM ;)
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 9:49AM
i dont believe the over all premise, but a few plot points keep coming up from various different web sites (e.g. 3 lines in the black desert etc). though i would assume security would be tight with the w's. so these recurring plot points must be forever expanding rumours/bullshit! though ive heard worse...
beza1e1Aug 18, 2003 at 9:51AM
This phone call theory is somehow convincing. I can't find any counter arguments.
Another point about xzaust. If the prophecy for Morpheus is true, what about the prophecy for Trinity? Will Trinity fall in love with the Kid?! I think the Oracle never said literally that Neo is the One, but why did she send him on the quest in m2? Wouldn't the Oracle have prophecied something about the self-substantiation of the One, if it is the kid?
The Merovingian, the Keymaker and the Architect call Neo the One, are they wrong as well? The more i think about it the less i believe in it ...
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 9:53AM
beza1e1 (not MwM) :) ...ive never seen the reloaded end credits revolutions trailer, ive only seen the enter the matrix trailer. i assume the pictures are from the former...
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 10:04AM
i think neo is the one, simply for narrative purposes, forgetting "kids story" as not all those who watch m2 will bother with the animatrix, the kid (popper) has done little in the films, and if he were the one surely the w's would have built his charractor up more. it is perhaps to late in the day for such a back track, or maybe im wrong i dont know. the kid could simply be version 7 of the one, if we are to believe the xzaust. theory.
the m1 phone booth theory certainly warrants a look, it never occurred to me to check the dates, (will do tonite). as i dont believe that m1 takes place over an 18 month period. though admittedly time is somewhat blurred in m1, and maybe neo's recupperation on the neb (building up muscle density etc) could have taken some time. but 18 months to me, could be the duration of time for the whole trilogy, so who knows there could be some truth in the phone booth theory.
beza1e1Aug 18, 2003 at 10:09AM
bell why are you reposting this story? You posted it on July 03, 2003 at 02:28:30 ET and now once again?
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 10:16AM
if neo's just a bloody cyborg... oh i give up...
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 10:21AM
beza1e1 says:
bell why are you reposting this story? You posted it on July 03, 2003 at 02:28:30 ET and now once again?
its not the same post, nor the same source...you will notice differences...though there are similar theme's...or am i just losing it (:
no seriously the begining of both post's are the same but the rest of the posts go of in different directions. though admittedly i have not read the july 03 post for a while...
bell (MwM)Aug 18, 2003 at 10:39AM
beza1e1 says:
bell why are you reposting this story? you are right, i am losing it, must see revolutions as im just tieing my self in knots theoriesing about "celluloid" for gods sake...has it come to this :)
Spoon BoyAug 18, 2003 at 12:29PM
bell says:
spoonboy says:It's not about where Smith wants to go. It's about where Smith doesn't want to be. As an Agent, he has a purpose.
what if smith was programmed to act the way he does in the m1 in the morpheus scene, as that is part of his design, and in turn would lead him to his conflict and destruction, with neo and become multipul smith. smith was programmed to be an antaganist.
The whole topic of Artificial Intelligence deals with the concept of a computer program that can think for itself, and make decisions beyond what it was originally programmed to make. Computer programs do what they were programmed to do. The idea of creating an intelligent program takes things to a new level. It's like creating an intelligent lifeform, with a mind all its own.
It is true that Smith could've been "programmed to be an antagonist", but his artificial intelligence is has clearly evolved and has developed "non-program" (intelligent humanlike) traits. Particularly in the Morpheus questioning scene in M1. Smith's personality is becoming more and more human (impatience, disdain, hatred, etc.), and he has become more than a computer program. Even his cohorts Brown and Jones don't quite know what to make of his behaviour; its foreign to them. Remember when Smith has Morpheus by the head, demanding the access code? Brown and Jones walk in and can't even comprehend what Smith is doing. "What are you doing???" etc.
ctm3Aug 18, 2003 at 1:08PM
Bez.. "he", was one of the guys commenting on the DVD. Carrey Ann Moss and the effects guy and the cinematographer I believe. Don't remember their names.
beza1e1Aug 18, 2003 at 1:10PM
I agree with you Spoonboy, but lets guess you were the architecht und you are writing a bot, an intelligent one. You do this for a special purpose, be it getting access to Zion, capturing Morpheus or the One, or keeping the One on its path. Now you want the AI to do this. You just must set some data (you don't like this place, Zion is a nice place) and a clue (Morpheus has the keys) and the AI will do its job. Make sure the AI 1)can't change this initial configuration or 2)doesn't know about the initial configuration. The agent will now figure out itself how to get the keys from Morpheus. It is not important wether this place or Zion is nice or wether Morpheus has any keys or not, you set the parameters and the AI will act according to them.
We can guess, that Smith has got the initial aim "kill the One to get relief". The bad thing or the anomaly was that Smith did his job. He killed the One and as a result the One killed him - blue screen of death - system crash - system integrity broken - hey i can replicate myself now! What is my purpose now, after i killed the One? Lets assimilate the One, he will know probably ...
Spoon BoyAug 18, 2003 at 1:45PM
beza1e1 says:
but lets guess you were the architecht und you are writing a bot, an intelligent one
I don't see the Architect as being the ultimate programmer here. The Architect is that "singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines" that Morpheus described.
The Architect is A.I.
Abstract concepts can be difficult to for the human mind to grasp. That's what analogies and metaphors are for. For the purpose of the audience's comprehension, the abstract entity known as Artificial Intelligence is being conveyed to us in the Architect character.
beza1e1Aug 18, 2003 at 3:46PM
Do you see the Architect and Smith as differnt, independent AIs? I do.
When i speak of "programming", it is kongruent with "spawning", because the Architect will have to copy himself and change the copy (setting the variables and aims as descrobed above). This could be called "spawning", i think.
The AI itself is more like the humans. You can't see it in the Matrix, but you can see the avatar (the Architect, Agents, ...).
I see them like the bots today (IRC bot, Counterstrike bot, Eliza, ...). You can run one instance on your PC or you can run different copies (programmer slang: spawn different instances). The main bot (Architect) makes a copy, modifies it, and executes the program, voila: a new agent. He would never let the spawns get asa powerful as himself, because that would mean to loose power.
Spoon BoyAug 18, 2003 at 6:28PM
beza1e1 says:
Do you see the Architect and Smith as differnt, independent AIs?
Absolutely. "A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of (independent and separate) machines (programs)."
It's also important to note that the "spawned" machines (intelligent programs programmed by an intelligent program) also spawned other machines. An obvious analogy would be equate God in Creation to the programmers of the original A.I. in The Matrix, and then to equate Adam (in Creation) to the Architect. Once created, Adam went on to populate the earth with mankind, much like the Architect populating the Matrix with other intelligent programs.
I see them like the bots today (IRC bot, Counterstrike bot, Eliza, ...). You can run one instance on your PC or you can run different copies
Sure. A key difference, however, is that the bots today aren't intelligent enough to make decisions independent of the programmer's intentions. Barring bugs of course. But a bug would be more of a programmer's error than his program's decision.
I like your programming perspective. Some of the coolest aspects of this movie fall into this area (Oracle, cookie, D-MAN, 101, Agent, Popper, etc.) Good stuff; on the money. Keep it going.
SajjmanAug 18, 2003 at 6:31PM
hmm , when morhpeus says to neo "you think its 1999 but blabla" that's the time when he's freed , so 1999 cant be the time AFTER he's done all the stuff in reloaded since that would be 6 months + post 1999 , right?
thought the phone scene theory is fucking awesome ;P
Btw where did u get the dates from the last scene in m1 ? Where did u see it?
NumerologyFanAug 19, 2003 at 2:03AM
NumerologyFan says on August 08, 2003 at 11:49:30 ET
And just the same about 6: in many numerology 6 is only induction , preparation for ... 7, the PERFECT number, the number of God, when God rejoices about all he just created.
...
Would this say about a Last One becaming? Would this mean that Neo is DYING and RESURRECTING again? or is he meant REALLY JUST TO 'AWAKE' the Last One? (are you thinking the same of me?)
HEY HEY, I said It! I told you the 7th would be who Neo freeds! The only one we know could be in that place is Kid!
I like that writer :-P
Just a more clue: I think it would be Kid the /th One BUT BUT BUT Still Neo the important One
...
About Seraph, and how he is yellow/gold rather than green."
Hey people, I think we forgot the hebrew/biblical background in this:
Seraph -> Seraphin
"The angels who burn with love by God, purify and illuminates to the mortals , the BARRIER (literally, the Gate keepers) for access to GOD(!), the nearest to Him" Here, they are represented in angeliology as made of FIRE, and LIGHT.
Thus, Seraph is not necessary of an older Matrix version, but in his(its?) own words " I protect that which matters most."
His being Gold is more like being "made of Fire". He is the Watch for the Oracle, a way of showing us more about the Oracle (Holy Ghost? Remember that in terminology, The only with access to Divinity is The Christian One- Jesus) Importance in tha scene.
Sorry if the definition isnt much clear but I am translating it from spanish, my language. In spanish is easier to relate Seraph with Seraphin).
beza1e1Aug 19, 2003 at 2:31AM
Why do you need a 7th One? If Neo fulfills the prophecy and overwhelms the machines, so the humans are free. The 7th iteration would be the perfect world.
... hm i wonder now what could be a good end? The Matrix must survive, but the machines must be destroy, before Zion is. The most happy end, would be peace between human and machine, so they could work out the perfect Matrix together, which would save the machines power supply and the humans free will. But then the Architect must have to surrender.
NumerologyFan (neither MWM, neither nMWM)Aug 19, 2003 at 2:45AM
About the possible playing-part of Neo and Kid, (im sorry but I got the theological interest) IF kind of xzaust.com theory is going true, lets say it would be like this:
1) Neo realizes Kid is the One to be One:-P
2) Neo or somebody(Morph again?) tries to convince him of his Responsability and Potentials (but still everybody doubts him).
3) Kid reaches some power and goes for the final fight (or something like that) to the (real?) Source scene.
4) Kid FAILS/DIES without doing nothing.
5) Neo Has to re-realize Himself is NOT the Final One Profecized BUT BUT BUT He Can/Has to be who end All this "Fate Crap".
6) He does what He is NOT Intended to do (and maybe rescues kid?).
7)??????
Think about it:
6 is the Man, 7 the perfect profecized. But the foreground message in all this is that mankind can be free of the system who rules all thir lives , i.e. "dont believe in that fate crap"; Kid, representation of Gods plans, should fail if the W's are showing us that agnostic theme, that Men can be free of God concerning/guide. So, Neo is Not intended to end all the Bondage, but just to allow other to do whatever-7th-is-needed-to-do.
B) Just like Adam (or maybe I must say, Lucifer?), Neo "rebels at the Divine plans" BUT NOW Neo is who WINS (satanical escathology?) the power/struggle to God. 7 can do nothing to avoid this (maybe even fights Neo!) .
C)Some the W's films are about men potentials, not men Fates, kindof "you can do it!".
D) If the 7th wins... all the film would be nothing to. Revolution to beginning. So sad. Interesting, but dark and sad. I got the blue pill in my tongue since now.
...
I REALLY REALLY NEED TO REST.
As Socrates said "I know nothing at all except that I am losing it". XD
bellAug 19, 2003 at 8:39AM
sponboy says:The whole topic of Artificial Intelligence deals with the concept of a computer program that can think for itself, and make decisions beyond what it was originally programmed to make.
i don't dispute that, but what im suggesting is that smith is operating within set parameters. obviousley smith will move beyound is basic proramming being an A.I. and all, though what if his development is set in order to fullfill specific directives he is unaware of. I refering to smiths make-up charactor setting etc...
beza1e1Aug 19, 2003 at 8:44AM
Is it just a coincedence that you stopped at number 7?
I think i understand your logic, NumerologyFan, but i am not sure wether the W's are that hard behind this special symbolism and i can't believe the Kid has such a great role. Apart from this, i can't deny your theory has some substance.
bell (moving away from MwM)Aug 19, 2003 at 9:08AM
Thus, Seraph is not necessary of an older Matrix version, but in his(its?) own words " I protect that which matters most."
i believe that seraph is protecting the matrix and not the oracle, i think that is what he means when he says "i protect that what is most important"
sajiman, the date comes up just after the emp blast scene...
numerologyfan says:So, Neo is Not intended to end all the Bondage, but just to allow other to do whatever-7th-is-needed-to-do.
i starting to think that it is all about the 7th itteration, and peace between man/machine.
i also think that there could be different factions
1).man
2).oracle, seraph
3).merv and his vampire posse
4).architect and machine(sentinals) agents?
5) smith and smith and smith and smith 10^ etc...
the question is who is on who's side? is the architect actually helping neo by showing trin in danger and allowing a different outcome. as the architect could have just directed neo to the other door for an infinite amount of iterations. but he has decided to change the outcome, why?
1).to get 100% acceptance
2).understand human condition
3).to help free man
4).because he is late for a captain birdseye comercial
im starting to think that many of us are looking to deeply into this, myself included. though taking nthing away from the w's, i think the xzaust. theory will not neccesarily be true, but it will be on them lines me suspects...
bell (moving back to MwM)Aug 19, 2003 at 9:13AM
gathering as much information as you can does not neccessarily lead you to the truth, it is when you empty your mind that the truth presents itself.
beza1e1Aug 19, 2003 at 10:35AM
That is really a problem here. Here is a huge amount of
information gathered, but lineing it up in a thread is one of the worst ways to present it. A mindmap would probably do the job best, butwho would want to do this? Surfing, talking and thinking a little is much easier ;)
bellAug 19, 2003 at 10:39AM
a possible reason Seraph had golden code is that he came from the first incarnation of the matrix or an earlier incarnation as we all know.if it was the first incarbation ir could be deemed as heaven. "Seraph" is singular for the plural "seraphim" as numerology fan mentioned. The seraphim are the highest choir of angels and included amongst others: Lucifer, Gabriele, Raziel and Malaciah, and they sit on the 8th level of Heaven just one below God.
Catholic encyclopedia states: The name, a Hebrew masculine plural form, designates a special class of heavenly attendants of Yahweh's court. In Holy Writ these angelic beings are distinctly mentioned only in Isaias's description of his call to the prophetical office (Isa., vi, 2 sqq.). In a vision of deep spiritual import, granted him in the Temple, Isaias beheld the invisible realities symbolized by the outward forms of Yahweh's dwelling place, of its altar, its ministers, etc. While he stood gazing before the priest's court, there arose before him an august vision of Yahweh sitting on the throne of His glory. On each side of the throne stood mysterious guardians, each supplied with six wings: two to bear them up, two veiling their faces, and two covering their feet, now naked, as became priestly service in the presence of the Almighty. His highest servants, they were there to minister to Him and proclaim His glory, each calling to the other: "Holy, holy, holy, Yahweh of hosts; all the earth is full of His glory." These were seraphim, one of which flew towards Isaias bearing a live coal which he had taken from the altar, and with which he touched and purified the Prophet's lips, that henceforth these might be consecrated to the utterances of inspiration…
Text continued…http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13725b.htm
bellAug 19, 2003 at 10:51AM
beza1e1 says:
That is really a problem here. Here is a huge amount of
information gathered, but lineing it up in a thread is one of the worst ways to present it. A mindmap would probably do the job best, butwho would want to do this? Surfing, talking and thinking a little is much easier ;)
who would have the time? im sure siddarta would be up for it, though he has'nt posted for a while :)
i think the problem is some theories (which are still good) take us down blind alley's, and in turn we often (well myself i suppose) end up contradicting ones self...
bellAug 19, 2003 at 11:01AM
i suppose seraph code is different as he is in essence a guardian, higher order within the matrix. perhaps, though there is no evidence to back this up as yet; there are class structures in place for the programs within the matrix and each class/level have designated colours of identification.
bellAug 19, 2003 at 11:24AM
...i read an article in one of the broadsheets the other day, that scientist had devised a way of powering your home, using human biolelectricity. the article stated that humans emit around about 100 watts of energy at any one time.
...and also there was a recent artical which stated that 1000 neurons once belonging to a rat were placed in a petri dish, then hooked up to a computer/robotic arm, via the internet 19 kilometers away. these stimulated neurons were able to draw pictures, or should i say they were taught to draw picture's
has the world gone mad?????? there seems to be a very blurred line between science fact and science fiction. Technology is moving faster than our comprehension of it.
beza1e1Aug 19, 2003 at 12:01PM
What is this about human bioelectricity. I thought it is impossible due to the laws of energy?
I once read it takes about 20 Years until a new development (steam power, electricity, computers, handy, ...) is taken into (commercial) use. So we have 20 Years until the machines overwhelm us ;)
bellAug 19, 2003 at 12:13PM
beza1e1 says:
What is this about human bioelectricity. I thought it is impossible due to the laws of energy?
im not well versed in the laws of energy, though no doubt ill read up. im just repeating what the article stated. ill have to look it up in the archives, and i will copy and paste it onto the thread.
RYUUYRAug 19, 2003 at 9:36PM
It's possible that Seraph was SHOWN to us as gold code, but that all indy programs might also be gold code (helping to lead Neo to put two and two together and ask the Oracle if she was a program), and that we're just supposed to make the connection based on the one example. Is there another example of gold code anywhere in the movie? I know no other person/program is shown...but any structures or anything? Gold might just be to show that they're not directly influenced by the Matrix...hmmmmmmm...but Trinity is green, so who knows...
NumerologyFanAug 20, 2003 at 12:06AM
Just to end with Seraph:
Think so a good fighter a single program should be to "keep busy" and almost hit The One. You see, the more powerfull agent (Smith) isnt match for Neo, whenever smiths come to help. It were needed 102 (count them if you dont agree! ;D XDD) to overcome him, and just because he (I guess) didnt want to destroy them all, just as he did with original smith.
How could a programmer (artificial or not, spawner or coder) create so a good protector, in fact without using the Matrix Agents as model...
.....
beza1e1 says:
That is really a problem here. Here is a huge amount of
information gathered, but lineing it up in a thread is one of the worst ways to present it. A mindmap would probably do the job best, butwho would want to do this? Surfing, talking and thinking a little is much easier ;)
Hey I propose a resumé about some points here discussed. I am just posting a page for us to do that... well I will say it when it is functional :-P
CarolynAug 20, 2003 at 1:16AM
you can get the revolutions trailer now at
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/
rv_cmp/revolutions1_downloads.html
77 days
beza1e1Aug 20, 2003 at 4:06AM
RYUUYR just look above (your browser may have search function)
Golden Code is The womans orgasm at the Merv, Trinitys blood, ...
Wow NumerologyFan, i can't await it :D
Who knows if Neo uses his full power in the fight with Seraph? I think he could still puzzle around, why this guy attacks him and who he is and distraction does not help your fighting skills ;)
Seraph last words are "I protect what matters most" What matters most? The symbiosis between man and machine? The Oracle? The quest of the One? The truth about the Matrix?
In the trailer he fights together with Trin and Morph, so he doesn't protect the Oracle anymore. The truth? Why should he fight for the truth together with them?
So the quest and the symbiosis is left. If Neo has failed somewhere Seraph perhaps must interfere to help him out, this would explain, why he helps them fight.
I got the symbiosis point from xzaust. If the Oracle and Seraph are a third party with different aims, who just want to use the One? Her powers may still be valid, but she wants to establish a peaceful symbiosis between man and machine, rather than to extinct Zion or free all people.
beza1e1Aug 20, 2003 at 4:45AM
What about a Wiki to present our informations? I programmed a simple one, but i wouldn't want to use my webspace, because there are already some projects and i don't have the money to expand it :(
If somebody has or knows some webspace with PHP support, i could give my Wiki. I already look for a WikiFarm, but i don't like Seedwiki.
More info about Wikis on my TipiWiki
Is this advertising? No, my Wiki is nowhere as featurerich as others and i couldn't get anything, if we use it. I just think it would be a good idea.
bellAug 20, 2003 at 7:43AM
here are the time index's that the matrix show in m1...
start of m1:
Call trans opt: received. 2-19-98 13:24:18 Rec:Log>
End of m1:
Call trans opt: received. 9-18-99 14:32:21 Rec:Log>
WARNING:CARRIER ANOMALY
so there are 19 months between the both time index's, i find this interesting, as to me i dont believe the duration of m1 is more than 1 month. look at neo's hair growth for instance, when he is freed from the pod he has no hair at all, then by the end of the film after the emp blast his hair has grown 1 month's growth at max. (i know as ive be shaving my hair for about 10 years). so are we to assume that the time between trin speaking to cypher in the first scene and neo being freed is 18 months in duration? i dont think so!
the only logical explanation is that either...
1). 18 months between the emp blast at the end of the film and the phone box scene...
2). that the phone box scene takes place after revolutions...
also if i remember, there is a 6 month gap between m1 and m2...so taking that into consideration...18 moths could encompass the entire trilogy...
opinions anybody?
bellAug 20, 2003 at 7:48AM
Carolyn says:
you can get the revolutions trailer now at
cheers Carolyn, are you single! :)
bellAug 20, 2003 at 7:59AM
numerology fan says: How could a programmer (artificial or not, spawner or coder) create so a good protector, in fact without using the Matrix Agents as model...
it is possible that in the 1st version of the matrix, there may not have been agents at all, and perhaps programs such as seraph and merv and the oracle were the guardians. if the first version was set say a thousand years ago, those in the matrix would turn to an oracle for advise and guidence, as they did in greece and egypt etc. Merv and his vampire posse may have also policed the matrix also at some point, using superstition and the supernatural as scare tactics to keep order. (as we know those in the matrix rejected these earlier iterations, thats why merv, seraph etc should have returned to the source for deletion). but before they were deemed obsolete we should perhaps lok at what possible roles they had in earlier iterations...
bellAug 20, 2003 at 8:14AM
i said: 18 moths could encompass the entire trilogy... months not moths, i should realy use the spell check more often :)
bellAug 20, 2003 at 8:38AM
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=c0e95ce69d49a5e381eba3b95c207644&threadid=262606
check out new pic, think there is gonna be a lot of bullet time rain in the final battle, this sequence is gonna be good...
bellAug 20, 2003 at 9:22AM
http://www.christiandrouinplante.com/3/3.jpg evidence of the three power lines mentioned in the xzaust. theory.
beza1e1Aug 20, 2003 at 9:27AM
It doesn't look as if he is standing in rain. Perhaps this some water fall or something? His shoulders ar dirty. After a fight?
The phone-theory seems realistic, lets hope it isn't a failure and 98 should have been 99. Morpheus talk is "You think it is 1999", so perhaps it is an error.
bellAug 20, 2003 at 9:43AM
Architect states: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix
Keymaker states: Exactly 314 seconds..
im no mathematician but both of the above statements are refering to pi i think?
Archimedes was one of the first people to calculate pi by mathematical methods, when he worked it out to be between 3.1408 and 3.1429.
is pi used as a means of testing for bugs in computers? is neo pi?
im sure ive seen the pi symbol somewhere (graphitti) in m1 or m2 or both, will have to check...
anyone?
beza1e1Aug 20, 2003 at 10:33AM
Calculating PI is a nice, little routine, but using it as a test routine is uncommon i think. Must be something else ... pi is used in connection with circles ... Neo must conclude the perfect circle ... bah it is very wild thinking
bellAug 20, 2003 at 10:52AM
pi is used to find the circumferance of circle's, but im sure it is used to detect bugs in software/hardware, i may be wrong...spoonboy will know im sure.
bellAug 20, 2003 at 11:25AM
ive seen the enter the matrix trailer and the superbowl trailer, but im yet to see the reloaded end credits trailer of revolutions. could some one post the web page in which show this trailer. thankyou, and much appreciated...
Spoon BoyAug 20, 2003 at 1:51PM
Re: pi
Martin Gardner's fictional "Doctor Matrix" used to say that,
properly interpreted, the number pi (the ratio of the circumference
of a circle to its diameter, whose decimal expansion begins
3.14159265358979323846...) contains the entire history of mankind.
There's a dude on the Net named Mike Keith who is the total number monger, and has published numerous bakeable articles and books on the subject of numbers. Pi would be one of them:
http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/picode.htm
btw, trip out on the reference to both "Matrix" and "Cipher" in the above article on The Pi Code.
If you a math/word enthusiast and feel like going off on a tangent or two, you should check out Mike's home page for a look @ some of his work. He's written on various mathematical and word play topics; everything from anagrams, palindromes, musical math, pi, chess, 666, etc.:
http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/mikehome.htm
This is the guy you want next to you next time you find yourself standing in a long line for Pirates of the Caribbean @ Disneyland. Great stuff. A conversation with no end.
For additional insight on the amazing topic of Pi, check out the movie called "Pi":
http://www.pithemovie.com
For those who enjoy analyzing the Matrix, you'll find Pi right up your alley.
I don't know if Mike Keith has seen The Matrix, but if he has, it'd be pure entertainment to read his observations.
ctm3Aug 20, 2003 at 4:08PM
Bez, I think it is the rain in the pic. It was mentioned that the rain drops are huge because at that point in the film the matrix is falling apart (degradating).
Spoon BoyAug 20, 2003 at 6:16PM
"Have a cookie. You'll feel right as rain."
--The Oracle
RYUUYRAug 20, 2003 at 11:43PM
I may be mistaken, but isn't the cake @ the Merv's place just a really concentrated green colour? I thought that myself and have seen others post the same observation. I have been known to be colour blind though...hehehehe. Come to think of it, we don't always see 'code' through Neo's eyes either...perhaps the architect sees all as green, but Neo can see the difference...blah blah blah...
NumerologyFanAug 20, 2003 at 11:56PM
bez, sorry for the expectations, I dont think I could do the page for a while (reentering school and still not enuff webskills ;-P ).
My idea was basically a page where it can be shown how the three basical theories here developed (MwM, nMwM and recently PhoneScene) explains itself and excludes(or includes) others; even, it can be shown its particular viewpoints for the M1 and M2 scenes. Kind of a trial. Something like this:
What says MWM:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
What says Not-MwM:dddddddd
What says PhoneScene:dddddddd
M1
1) The Struggle for Trinity :-P
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
2) Wake up, Neo
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
...
...
Animatrix
Bi66er:
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
Kids Story:
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
...
...
M2
Trailer:
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
0) Presentation: Code-made machines diggingMwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
1) Reunion of capitans
...
got the idea?
Something like that...
beza1e1Aug 21, 2003 at 3:44AM
The Phone scene is acceptable for both theories i'd say ...
@ ctm3: sorry, i haven't seen the new trailer yet. I must wait until i get home from work.
@ RYUUYR: Its not the cake, which is golden, it is the reactions within her. Like the blood in Trinity. The orgasm/explosion is golden.
RYUUYRAug 21, 2003 at 10:05AM
beza1e1: I should have been more specific, from my memory, although I've only seen it thrice, and from posts on other sites, it's any part of the scenes with trinity and the cake/girl/orgasm that is just ultra concentrated green. I can see it approaching a yellow-ish colour, but I just can't remember seeing it the same way that Seraph is depicted. *sigh* I guess I'll just have to go see the movie again...what a TOUGH decision that was...although I had already made the decision, I was just trying to understand it...8^)
TazmasterAug 21, 2003 at 11:30AM
I have taken the time to read every post in this thread (not the old one, sorry) and have seen some questions pop up that I feel I can help lay to rest...or at least put a new spin on. Here goes nothing...long post follows (POSSIBLE SPOILERS FROM THE GAME ENTER THE MATRIX - sorry)
ON THE SUBJECT OF LINK KNOWING ABOUT SUPERMAN
Yeah, well get this...in the game, "Enter the Matrix" the navigator of the Logos is trying to convince Niobi and Ghost not to go back in to the Matrix and he says...and I quote (from memory), "You guys have a serious death wish. A full on Bronson!" which is a direct reference not only to the "Death Wish" series of movies, but to the star of those movies, Charles Bronson. Granted, it's never said whether he is supposed to be "home grown" or not, but I think the point being made here is that rebels are aware of the fads and trends of life in the Matrix. This is either by having access to the Matrix code or by having access to those who do.
ON THE SUBJECT OF NEO & TRINITY'S RESURRECTIONS
Neo came back to life because he is The One. He had to "Die" in order to come back and be The One (Oracle says this in M1). In M1, when he comes back (view in the Neb), you see his body convulse in the same manner as someone who is brought back with a defibrulator (spelling?). His "One" powers did this automaticly when Trinity admitted her lover for him and kissed him (trigger).
Trinity on the other hand was brought back by Neo in M2. He did it through the Matrix. Remember what Morpheus said about damge taken in the Matrix? It only makes sense that if Neo was able to remove the bullet from her body (there is no bullet) and restart her heart in the Matrix, that it would also cause her body in the "real" world to react. This follows the same logic as the "The One Code" bringing Neo back in M1 at the onset of the trigger (Trinity-see above).
ON THE SUBJECT OF SQUIDDIES
We saw the sqiddies go down at the end of M2. We know they were damaged/disabled/destroyed. We know the Hammer didn't use it's EMP to do it. If you remember in M1, the Neb had to power down - fire EMP - and wait a few seconds before powering back up...yet the Hammer flies in to save Neo&co almost immediately after the sqiddies go down. It also cannot be the Logos because, according to the game Enter the Matrix, Niobi and Ghost had to use their EMP in an emergency which left them stranded in uncharted underground tunnels. If it had been the Logos' EMP that downed the squiddies, then Neo&co or the crew of the Hammer would surely have gotten a reading on their location and/or seen them go down (EMPs have a relativley small field of effect). Also, if a true EMP had been used at all, then the Hammer probably would have been close enough to be damaged/disabled as well. This leaves the cause for the squiddies downfall squarely with Neo.
So how did the squiddies go down? Here's a list of possible answers:
1)Neo stopped them because he realizes they are still in the Matrix.
2)Neo stopped them with his true "real world" powers.
3)The Architect stopped them because they would have killed The One.
4)They short circuited due to safety protocols concerning The One (again, the Architect)
(can't think of any more...for now this will have to do)
All of these answers are good...unless you take into account the fact that Neo collapsed immediately upon the squiddies fall. And this was no, "Gee I'm tired from stopping those squiddies" kind of fall. Neo collapsed in the EXACT same manner as fallen rebels do when they are still "jacked in" to the Matrix. In the real world, they are unplugged or dead, but in the Matrix they have a distinct way of simply falling on themselves...so to speak. Also, it is interesting to point out that during the moment Neo stops the squiddies we get to see his face for a split second. He does NOT look like he does when stopping a bullet or cloud of bullets. He looks like he is working hard!
ON THE MwM THEORY
I agree. The question in my mind is, "To what point are there multiple Matrices?" Is it simply a trap he is caught in by the Architect? The Architect could have trapped Neo when he chose his path in the Architect's chamber. A matrix only for Neo, where he could be controlled further to the Architect's ends. Or, is all of the "real" world (including Z10N) another network within the Matrix? Both have a logical truth behind them. They could BOTH be true. You can have as many netwoks as you want within the "sphere" of the original. For security, this would make total sense.
PREDICTIONS
1) Smith is much more important to this story than I see him being given credit. I believe he may be much closer to the source than expected.
2) I believe that the MwM theory is correct, though I do not know to what degree. I will not be "let down" if this is the case. The W's will surely do it right.
3) I hate to say this, but I think the Oracle will be killed/cloned at the hands of Smith. Who is Seraph protecting ,"That which matters most" FROM? Why has the Oracle been moving around? Hiding from who? Merv? Bah! She was doing fine in that apartment...Merv never touched her there. And they just happen to get the hell out of the playground just before Smith arrives. In the trailer for M3, you can clearly see that "crazy Smith" is getting his giggle on in the Oracle's now well lit apartment. Just think about it.
4) Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker show up and they all have punch and pie, then kick some motherboard!
Sorry such a long post. I hope it's easy to read and follow. Peace.
beza1e1Aug 21, 2003 at 12:47PM
Good conclusions Tazmaster
Concering the squiddies: 5) Neo uses some kind of WiFi jack in. This would be my most favoured solution, but i want the W's to give a very good explanation, if it prooves right.
1) why his working hard face expression?
2) lame story, not Matrix-style
3) deus-ex-machina effect, but i could settle with it
4) then what is the point of showing Neo in "stopping pose"?
And why should the architect access the squiddies? Could be Neo in solution 5) or th Oracle, Seraph (I protect what matters most) ... well, even Smith could have done it, he wants to face is arch enemy
TazmasterAug 21, 2003 at 1:46PM
Also, in "Enter the Matrix" *****SPOILERS*****the Oracle (new actress) tells Niobi that Neo is in a place between this world (Matrix) and the real world. This places Neo either in the Architect's chamber...or wherever he is at the end of M2. Personaly, I believe the Oracle is refering to Neo at the end of M2. This places everything that happens in the game from that point on AFTER Neo's collapse (she fights a bunch of Smiths, escapes, and then pilots the Logos away from one of the Bomb squiddies while Ghost shoots it. Then they use the EMP to disable the remaining squiddies and crash) This definately rules the Logos' EMP out in regards to the "squiddie incident" at the end of M2. Anyway, in order for there to be an "inbetween" (buffer of some kind?) there has to be a connection. Neo was NOT "jacked in". Yet, there had to be a connection between the two worlds in order for Neo to get trapped inbetween them after zapping the squiddies. Networks within Networks.
TazmasterAug 21, 2003 at 2:00PM
Oh, one more thing. Lol. I remember someone asking how Popper (Kid's Story) got out of the farm after freeing his own mind. Well, in "Kid's Story", at the end, he wakes up on the same table Neo did. He is in the Neb. Neo&co were watching him. They had just called him on his cell phone to let him know he needed to get out of the school because the agents were onto him. When they saw he had "self substantited" from the Matrix...they went to the farm and got him same as they would have had they given him the red pill. But, I wonder how Neo&co found his body amongst all the thousands and thousands of people in the farm? The pit he would have flush into would have to have been one of hundreds because that field was so huge! Remember that in M1 ,when Neo took the red pill, Morpheus was urgent about them "homing in" on him so they would be able to find him.
beza1e1Aug 21, 2003 at 2:35PM
I now set up a Wiki to collect all the different informations. It is available at
http://andi.dasstellenwirinsinternet.de/matrix/
I have not yet inserted anything and i will probably change the "theme" a little, but if you want, don't hesitate to edit it
ctm3Aug 21, 2003 at 2:48PM
I'm still wondering about the earpiece and if its only shown to mean that Smith was disconnected and somewhat freewilled. Maybe its a new apple WiFi device that Smith invites Neo to connect with so they can have tupperware parties in their own relm.
beza1e1Aug 21, 2003 at 3:40PM
I got a nice idea from the imdb board for the Matrix. It supports the mwm theorie, but why not ;)
You have seen Matriculated? There they put a machine into a Matrix and convinced it, that humans are good. Perhaps the whole story is the same?
Zion is within the Matrix the surviving Humans have built to convince machines. The machines they want to convince are the Ones ... uh i lost my path ... if everything is just a convince simulation, it would explain why the One has to go to the source on his free will. If he does, his training is complete. I can't think any further currently, I showed you the door, now you must go through ;)
*walks away, confused*
Spoon BoyAug 21, 2003 at 4:23PM
beza1e1 says:
You have seen Matriculated? There they put a machine into a Matrix and convinced it, that humans are good. Perhaps the whole story is the same?
It's actually a software program imprisoned in a human's dream. But yes, it's the same concept in reverse. Pretty cool, eh?
RYUUYRAug 21, 2003 at 4:43PM
To disagree with the MwM, I agree with beza1e1 about Neo being able to connect to the Matrix from without, and then accessing the squiddies the same way Smith or one of the other agents did in M1. This assumes that Neo, when IN the matrix himself, could actually manipulate the machines in the real world the same way as agents can. This then demands that Smith and Neo are connected in some way now perhaps also, in the real world, which I know has been said many times. I have to ponder how this connection with Smith/Neo would allow him this access, but it could make sense with Oracle's comments from EtM about Neo's being caught somewhere between.
I believe the point of showing Neo in his 'stopping' pose is to give us a nice cinematic shot...hehehehe, why not? His struggling facial expression could be simply due to his accessing something he's never done before, so perhaps he's just figuring it out really fast and it's painful to him.
I wouldn't be dissappointed with a MwM story, I'll say that now, but it better be a DAMN good one if so. All the theories that I've read here supporting MwM are all great, but seem to stretch things a bit too far, where simplicity might suffice. (although some of my own theories necessitate suspending certain beliefs also...hehehe). Based on some clips from the Revolutions trailer, it doesn't really look like anything in the 'real' world, ie- Z10N, underground tunnels, squiddies, etc, seems to be degrading the way the 'inside the matrix' scenes look. Now, this isn't absolute of course, we see lots of stuff pretty fast, but when Neo and Smith fight, it sure looks like the Matrix is falling apart, but then why isn't the 'other matrix' of the 'real world'??? Again, that's not conclusive since perhaps they just don't show us...*sigh*
RYUUYRAug 21, 2003 at 4:54PM
Spoonboy says:
beza1e1 says:
You have seen Matriculated? There they put a machine into a Matrix and convinced it, that humans are good. Perhaps the whole story is the same?
It's actually a software program imprisoned in a human's dream. But yes, it's the same concept in reverse. Pretty cool, eh?
I love how spoonboy is SO convinced...hehehehe...
Spoon BoyAug 21, 2003 at 7:53PM
beza1e1 says:
...and convinced it, that humans are good...
RYUUYR says:
I love how spoonboy is SO convinced...
Convinced that humans are good? Maybe anomalistically. But by default? Not yet; still waiting for proof. :)
RYUUYRAug 21, 2003 at 8:46PM
No, convinced of the MwM, which you helped to pioneer, at least on this board...you have laid out a very detailed view that you have about what's going to be revealed, that's all I meant since you stated in the above post about matriculated being a software program inside a human dream...hehehe.
beza1e1Aug 22, 2003 at 5:17AM
I heard about MatrixOnline, the multiplayer game after revolutions, that you can meet the oracle there. This means two things
- the matrix won't be destroyed in revolutions
- the oracle is not overwritten by smith or she survives it
Matt RoundAug 22, 2003 at 5:45AM
I don't know if others have mentioned this already, but the Architect scene immediately reminded me of The Prisoner, in which the rebellious Number 6 ("I am not a number.. I'm a free man!") clashes with authority figure Number 2 (often sitting in a chair in his control room) and tries to find out why he's trapped in The Village, and who Number 1 is.
bellAug 22, 2003 at 8:01AM
To disagree with the MwM, I agree with beza1e1 about Neo being able to connect to the Matrix from without, and then accessing the squiddies the same way Smith or one of the other agents did in M1
if neo is connected to the matrix for arguments sake, how is accessing the squiddies, as surely if the squiddies are in the real world why would they be connected to the matrix? the squiddies are A.I. and will have independent power/programming etc. and unlikely to be connected to the matrix/grid etc.
'inside the matrix' scenes look. Now, this isn't absolute of course, we see lots of stuff pretty fast, but when Neo and Smith fight, it sure looks like the Matrix is falling apart, but then why isn't the 'other matrix' of the 'real world'??? Again, that's not conclusive since perhaps they just don't show us...*sigh*
it sure looks like zion is falling apart to me (MwM), obviously when the matrix is falling apart the laws change/collapse within the system, we see degredation (walls crumbling, whatever). perhaps within zion this degredation is represented as a war between the sentinals and the human/A.I. ...as i think we have established this war always happens when the anomoly as he/she did in the previous 5 iteration's has approached the source. the war in zion is a result of the matrix degrading. so if zion is in the matrix (which it is!) this war is the degredation.
ill go back to a very early question on this thread... where is the evidence in zion that 5 previous zions have existed, over god knows howmany years. and how could 250'000 people exist there as it would take 2000 years for that amount of people to be born etc (yes i know people have been freed from the matrix, but only a fraction of that figure 250'000 have been freed, the majority of zion inhabitants are zion bred)
bellAug 22, 2003 at 8:13AM
there is no spoon...in m1 ...there is no spoon...in m2 ...there will be no spoon in m3 ...there is no real world, we certainly have'nt seen it yet!!!
bellAug 22, 2003 at 8:53AM
new pic... http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=03c722c908b91cb2937858264a4b4758&threadid=263472
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 9:09AM
bell: I have already addressed Neo's connection in my earlier post, you only took part of the post and answered it, but my own answer was right after the part you cut. Hehehehe. As I said, it assumes that Neo has some sort of control...but we have seen the agents in contact with them in M1...also...where's your proof for the squiddies being AI that isn't connected? That's quite a leap. Oh wait, the squiddies can't be AI and not connected to the matrix grid, since as you say it's ALL the matrix. Isn't it fun to argue against yourself? We don't KNOW how long this matrix has existed, so it COULD have lasted 2000 years...why not? Also, you ask where proof is of the real world? Well, since anything in the movie COULD be an illusion, there's really no proof of ANYTHING at all, either MwM or anything else, since everything you claim as proof could be fake as well, yes? The fact that it's fake could mean that YES it's a MwM, but not the way you have stated, it could have led you to believe that just as easily as believing it was real. If you ask for proof, supply some also, since one shouldn't believe in something just because it's the opposite of something they don't believe. You have made many many many points above, but none of them any more with support of proof than any other good point. It's pretty convenient to say that z10n falling apart 'pysically' by being destroyed by squiddies represents the degradation of the matrix...what a grandstand that would be on the part of the matrix. If it's really degrading, I don't think it would be able to keep control of anything, isn't that what degrading means in a way? It doesn't make sense that it would be losing code, falling apart, etc, and still be able to run it's 'people fooling zi0n part of the matrix' all the while having it destroyed by functioning squiddies, who as you claim, are just another part of the matrix too. Wouldn't they start slowing down, physics get turned upside down, etc?
As for Neo controlling squiddies (non MwM point): If communication between the Matrix and the real world is possible, as we've seen, then we could say that the agents are simply sending some request/command to some central location for redistribution to wherever the squiddies get their orders, etc, etc. We could also say, based on footage, that squiddies act very well in unison (clips from revolutions). This could imply some sort of birdlike 'intuition', but it could also be some sort of override communication, where they all become 'one' unit temporarily, on and off, depending on necessity ( I hate making comparison's between different sci-fi, but sorta like the 'borg in ST, where they all have the buried potential of individuality, but are also connected and somewhat controlled by the group mind). I mean, we've seen them act independantly, but also in tight, focus'd groups (yes, yes, this could just be AI with super reflexes). If Neo could somehow 'wireless' connect to the matrix from the real world (some proof bell is the statements by the Oracle in Enter the Matrix about being between two worlds, perhaps the connection is still there, but he can't get back out and he's in some holding zone that never gets seen when you jack in normally cause you pass through it so instantaneously)...sorry, IF he could do that, then perhaps he could simply access this squiddie comm web like the agents do (once inside the matrix though), and simply give them some override command. I cannot believe that they are so truly independant that they can't be invaded like that. I mean, even the agents are connected, DESPITE their individuality. The fact that he's looking really agonized could be 'cause he has to do all this really fast, and for the first time, pretty much intuitively...but we all know how good Neo is at making it up as he goes along...
Sorry if I sounded accusatory BELL, 'twas not my intention...just ranting...hehehehe...8^)
beza1e1Aug 22, 2003 at 9:50AM
I reecently read the chat with the W's and once again i feel sure, there is no MwM. I don't think the movie is that deeply thought. They said "So some of the stuff we do relates to the narrative, and some of the stuff we do because we like."
Oh another one, we puzzled about Call trans opt: received. 9-18-99 14:32:21 Rec:Log>
calla: What do the time 9:18 and the date 9/18 signify? Is this a personal reference?
WachowskiBros: That's my wife's birthday.
Perhaps, we are just lost in the Code, fellows ;)
bellAug 22, 2003 at 10:02AM
if you want proof, read the 1000+ thread as we have covered these point's a zillion time's. and as a result little effort on my side admittedly has gone into backing up what ive stated, as ive already done so on this thread. i am a MwM advocate, though i do entertain the possibility i am wrong so in turn look at where other theories may lead :)
bellAug 22, 2003 at 10:06AM
bezale1: you are write in stating that 9/18 is the w's birthday... but the point is the duration of time 19 months, between the time registers. i dont believe that m1 took place over 19 months...
bellAug 22, 2003 at 10:12AM
i know the agent refer to the sentinal in m1, but that does not mean the matrix/ or neo can directly control them from the matrix. i would assume that the sentinals have a level of A.I. as to me in m1 the sentinal that approaches neo when he is coming out of the pod, demonstrates decision making of a kind...may very well be a lower level A.I. (this is assuming that zion is real of course, and if zion was real one would assume that all machines are A.I.!!!!!!).
TazmasterAug 22, 2003 at 10:27AM
Oh, I just watched the Matrix again on DVD and a few things...
It does NOT say Tank was wrong on the wall behind Neo in the scene where Neo meets Apoc, Switch and Trinity in the car for "bug removal".
It actualy says, "Bank was wrong". I am absolutely posative on this. It DOES, however, show the word ONE directly behind Neo. It is only visible for a second due to Neo's movements on screen.
I was full of crap about Neo convulsing as if he was defibrulated when he came back to life in M1. Simply didn't happen. All he did was breathe in deeply. I still hold to the core of my argument about the resurrections, though. Mainly that the events of it all (getting shot/kiss admition of love by Trinity) were a trigger that set off the One's programming (code) to bring him back.
Also, anyone besides me notice that Neo was much much more masculine in M1 than he is in M2. He's almost androgynous in M2 (well except for the sex scene, lol)
beza1e1Aug 22, 2003 at 10:41AM
Neo is androgynous? I'd say Keanu Reeves should learn to play out a character ... but thats not the point ;)
The chat brought me somehow back to the ground. Matrix probably isn't the deeply thought. It is no science finally. Perhaps one of the W's got baby on 2-19-98? However, the show must go on :D
I agree, that the robots have an AI, but nevertheless communication is a good thing. What if the super-strategy-program figures out, there are 100 sentinels need on a specific place? Then it must tell those sentinels to go there. So they have to be able to recieve commands and why should Neo be able to fake or just diffuse this?
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 11:41AM
Thank you, although I said that, it seems someone had to say it again. Bell, as I've said before, I have read all the post above...none of them offer any more PROOF than I myself have offered for my own ideas. PROOF implies that someone says something absolutely concrete that applies to something that, through other methods, we can prove to be real also (or something like that)...based on your own arguement, and seeming not to believe what most of the people say in the movies (did you say that, or someone else), NOTHING can be proven. Anything ANYONE says could be the architect speaking through them, or their program being misleading, etc, etc...so that leaves us with this: If the MwM theory is true, then we cannot trust anything that has been said in the movies since the MwM relies on some statements being lies. How can we know which ones? We can pick and choose which ones to believe in order to make it fit our theories, but is that really good to do? It's FUN AS HELL, that's for sure...these discussions are top notch, but does it go anywhere to 'customize' the facts like that? I'm sure we could pretty much prove any weird theory we could think of if we just disregarded statements that didn't agree simply based on the fact that it could be a lie. I agree, people lie, progams if you like, lie, but we can't just assume that they are when there's nothing else to go on. The proof doesn't go backwards...ie- I believe that the MwM theory is correct, so therefore, any statement made by someone that doesn't work MUST be a lie. It can't work that way, shouldn't we assume that everyone is telling the truth (as far as they know it) and then throw away anything supurfluous that we thought was significant but isn't? 8^) The Second Ren Pt I and II, Smith's speech in M1, and various other references would all have to be totally false, fabrication, or whatever. I forget exactly how your view of MwM goes or how it differes from others bell, but it just seems like too much of an easy explanation for really just ONE weird point: Neo seemingly knocking out the squiddies at the end of M2. What else NEEEEEEDS to be explained by the MwM theory??? Many things CAN be explained that way, but also have numerous other ways. The only ways so far that I've seen discussed for Neo's action is either the MwM or this 'wireless' thing that beza1e1 said (which I think has won me over). I used to believe in the MwM thing too, mostly because of you Bell and Spoonboy's posts. Lately though, and pretty emphatically, I have gone 180° on it for the reasons stated above. Is there anything besides Neo's 'real world' abilities that really DEMANDS the MwM theory?
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 12:02PM
On Squiddies: Do we KNOW how they communicate/think/act??? No, so we cannot just assume that they are free thinking. I'm not assuming they're NOT, but I'm seeing activity that seems both independant AND universally controlled, so I just figure that there are ways for signals to override. I mean, even in M1 they say that Squiddies are PROGRAMMED to do only one thing; search and destroy. Does that sound like a truly independant AI??? No way.
I would also say that even though the Matrix itself wouldn't HAVE to have any connection to the main machine mind (we don't really know how they work, so my terms will be purposefully nebulous), it's possible that some sort of link exists between the Matrix and the rest of the machine world, or it would mean that the architect would have absolute power there. Wouldn't HE get orders somehow? Do the machines have a government? The machines in SR I&II certainly weren't like the squiddies or those runners from Matriculated, so we can surely assume that other changes have occurred.
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 12:13PM
Please don't just explain away that previous post by saying something like: it's all because they're in another matrix that they say or think those things. That's reverse engineering again to say that. It COULD be, but the only proof is the fact itself.
Spoon BoyAug 22, 2003 at 12:33PM
Matt Round says:
I don't know if others have mentioned this already, but the Architect scene immediately reminded me of The Prisoner, in which the rebellious Number 6 ("I am not a number.. I'm a free man!") clashes with authority figure Number 2 (often sitting in a chair in his control room) and tries to find out why he's trapped in The Village, and who Number 1 is.
As Neo runs through the old lady's apartment near the end of the film, we see an image on the TV of a menacing man in a black suit coat. The image is that of one of the Number 2's from the TV show "The Prisoner" (1967).
beza1e1Aug 22, 2003 at 1:26PM
When the squiddies throw the bomb on the two ships, there are several squiddies and one bomb, so they have to figure out, which one throws the bomb. While doing this, they are intelligent enough to stay out of EMP range.
This shows for me, that they can communicate and are intelligent. Ok, needn't to be AI, because even my StarCraft game can put his units out of range. So they are either AIs or commanded by a central, which means either Neo could send them commands or can command them directly.
Is this nMwM enough for you? You should not offend our MwM people that hard. We are not here to win any discussion, but we could loose good contributors. I am not 100% nMwM, because it explains some things better then nMwM, i just follow my instinct.
btw: click on my name below :D
Spoon BoyAug 22, 2003 at 1:28PM
bell says:
ill go back to a very early question on this thread... where is the evidence in zion that 5 previous zions have existed, over god knows howmany years.
Step back for a moment and imagine yourself in the middle of a game of Pac-Man. Try to see things from the perspective of our favorite little yellow hungry friend. You're cruising around the corridors, munching dots, and dodging hostile furry ghosts named Inky, Blinky, Pinky, and Clyde. Now,
Where is the evidence that you have done this previously?
There isn't. You, Pac-Man, can only think as far back as the beginning of your current iteration (i.e., you can only remember as far back as the the beginning of the current game activated by the most recent token).
A similar analogy would be to consider the web browser that you're sitting in front of right now. Clear the cache, delete all your bookmarks, remove all your cookies, and restart your browser. Now, where is the evidence that your browser has been used previously?
Think of each iteration (revolution) of The Matrix as occuring in RAM, with every character (a program) runnng in RAM. When the machine reboots, everything in RAM is wiped out and all unsaved changes are lost. Upon reboot, the programs are launched from scratch and things start all over again. These programs really have no way of knowing about their previous iterations, although they can learn about them (from the Architect, Oracle, etc.) while running in the next iteration. However, everything they learn while running in RAM will be forgotten once the machine is rebooted again.
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 1:38PM
Spoon Boy: although that certainly sounds convincing, it's still based on the assumption that it's MwM, as stated above. I just can't believe how many lies would have to be told to support it. If things were a bit more ambiguous, then I would probably still be in the MwM camp...alas, I guess I'm just too trusting...hehehe...
Is this nMwM enough for you? You should not offend our MwM people that hard. We are not here to win any discussion, but we could loose good contributors. I hope you just got your pronouns mixed up...I am supporting your theory. Your statements about AI is a great way of saying what I said above, more concise, but then the next statement makes it sound like I'm disagreeing with you. I agree about not trying to win anything...I know I can come across like that when openly discussing ideas, but I try to throw in self-depracting remarks and 'hehehehe's to that no one takes me too seriously...but for all those who DID: SORRY....8^)
Spoon BoyAug 22, 2003 at 1:56PM
RRUYR says:
it's still based on the assumption that it's MwM
It seems the people in this thread have grouped these theories into one of two groups:
1. nMwM
2. MwM
These are inaccurate labels.
What we really need to do is get to the root of things (pun intended ;), and put people in one of the following two groups:
1. People who believe Zion is the real physical world, containing biological mankind.
2. People who believe Zion is not the real world, and is itself a non-physical reality.
Notice how MwM would be a subgroup of #2. Also notable is that there are Group 2 people, such as myself, who believe that Zion is not the real world, but do not necessarily fall under the MwM label specifically.
The MwM label is too specific; it literally suggests the "onion skin" model in which case one reality is "nested within" or "layered on top" of another reality. This onion skin model ultimately leads to a "top layer", in which case people must accept that there is a real world outside the realities portrayed in the film.
I don't see the need for an ultimate reality to ever be revealed to us in order for the story to retain its artistic value.
Like life, there are certain things that will always remain unclear, debatable, and eternally unproven. But this doesn't mean that life isn't worth pondering, for what it's worth.
The Matrix story, as a piece of art, is a representation of life and all the questions associated with it.
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 2:19PM
Spoonboy: I think the MwM theory has thrown out the idea of 'infinite' matices, at least for the most vocal proponents. The onion skin I guess could still describe a 'one matrix within ONE other matrix', but MwM doesn't have to be onion skin. They could exist overlapped, they could both be within each other, the smaller could be the observational boundries, like in Dr. Who's TARDIS, etc, etc. No absolutes as you say, so MwM doesn't HAVE to describe the onion skin idea...I do however agree that your other criteria is better. I just don't quite see the difference with what you said about Z10N not being real, but no MwM either. I know you had said some stuff WAAAAAY back about how time doesn't matter, and as just above, compared EVERYTHING to the workings of computers, is it something from those posts??? I don't mind the idea of there being no real world as we define it, as morpheus says in M1: "what is real, how do you define real?", but it would have to be more than just 'all this is going on in a computer' and we never see the real world. I think it could still be 'artistic', as you say, for that scenario, but I just wouldn't like it as much...it would be too much of an Occam's Meat Cleaver instead of Razor. I like simple ideas/explanations, that's why I liked your all encompassing view, but I'd like you to define it a little more after that last post...my noodle's been a little overdone lately...hehehehe.
"The movie as art theory"...hmmmmm...a new thread? lol I was just today trying to explain to a person the difference between music as art, and music as product, so I know what you mean about not needing a finality to it (or rather, a 'real world' finality). Perhaps David Lynch will remake the Matrix and then it will ALLLL make sense...8^)
Spoon BoyAug 22, 2003 at 2:47PM
it would have to be more than just 'all this is going on in a computer' and we never see the real world.
It would be more than that, if you looked closely. The A.I.-centered theory would not result in a cheap "whoah... dude... it's all a computer!" ending. That would be nothing more than using software as a means of achieving the almighty twist that we've grown to crave in movies these days; a twist that's been achieved using dreams (the oldest in the book), death (Sixth Sense, The Others), schizophrenia (Beautiful Mind, Fight Club, Identity), and deceit (Usual Suspects, The Game).
What the "all A.I. theory" really does is provoke profound questions about the idea of Artificial Intelligence. Rod Serling and his boys did this a few time in the Twilight Zone work, and Spielberg attempted to do this in his movie A.I. The underlying question that was asked in all these pieces of work were:
"If it were possible to create a totally intelligent machine, could it feel human emotion?"
The topic of what Artificial Intelligence is or isn't, and could be or couldn't be, is a deep subject. The idea of successfully creating a totally intelligent program or entity is about the closest thing to being God that we can imagine. Also notable is that mankind has not fully achieved this yet, and likely never will, so, like time-travel, it presents a wonderfully mind-tickling subject for science fiction.
Aside of plain old bad-ass artistic coolness, I find the A.I. theory to be more believable than the "biological man @ war with machine" concept which the nMwM camp finds so hard to let go of. My problem with the nMwM, or rather the "Biological Man Is Involved" theory, is the problems it creates, such as the cross-platform "Self Image" and the "Two Independent Yet Synchronized Timelines" between The Matrix and Zion. These topics were both discussed in depth in these threads.
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 3:55PM
Spoonboy: Thank you...there I have it in a nutshell, and now I remember why I agreed with you way back. I liked the idea of everything being a program/AI, and seeing what we can learn, etc, etc, tying in with the whole 'coppertop doesn't make sense' thing, which I agree, doesn't make sense. The only thing I would have to scratch my head over is that there would have to be a 'real world' SOMEWHERE. I have agreed already that it wouldn't have to enter into the movie, in fact, it would indeed take away from it since it would then just open up to many avenues and unfinished questions (ten sequels), and artistically it could be self-contained. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you are saying that you didn't believe in a real world anywhere. How does THAT make sense??? It might tickle me a while if it were as you say, but that we never know the 'orchestrators' of this whole thing. I can imagine there being an explanation of WHY, but without seeing WHO, then what's the point? Even art has a point, (even Dada-ism had a point: SCREW ART!!!), so to paraphrase the Merov, we have the why, but without the who, it is pointless. If we were to take it further and say that there is no WHO at all, not just within the context of the movie, then it's back to: "wow man, there's a whole universe in the shavings of my fingernails..." since it would be what you hate: worlds withing worlds. Do you believe that there is a place where hardware machines exist and do anything? What created this scenario? The experiment in AI behaviour is great, but did you say waaay back that you thought it was humans experimenting with it? I forget...
As for 'believable', do you mean believable based on the clues in the movies, or believable 'as a movie ending'??? I mean, I agree, the Man Vs Machine thing is kinda overdone (but not done well enough for my liking) in other things. Even DUNE was based on that premise, although it didn't enter the book as such. It IS believable based on the movies though, as an answer to the questions. Just because that's what they say is happening, it doens't mean it IS, I know, but it doesn't mean it ISN'T either. That's why I was going on about lies earlier. I know that your theory can throw away the lies thing since it is all part of the 'experiment' or whatever, but again, it just seems like we were told everthing we were JUST to point us in the wrong direction. It's one thing to read between the lines, it's quite another to see things that just aren't there. I'll say this, as for 'believable', the man/machine thing is totally acceptable based on the movies...it's just not the most original. If we're meant to be witnesses to this AI experiment, then it's safe to assume it's centered on NEO, yes? So why show us, the witnesses, the interaction with Smith and Cypher? As a movie device, it's great, 'we know he's bad, but they don't...mwahahahaha'...but why bother showing us if it doesn't REALLY apply to NEO? One could say that it's tied in with his death and resurrection, since without Cypher's betrayal, it wouldn't have happened like that. But that could have easily been demonstrated without the scene with Smith in the restaurant. Just having him drop his phone in the garbage, just having him being the sneezer, just having him kill them at the end rant...all those accomplish the same thing, so why show us that scene in particular? I think that right there is a clue from the W's that the real world is essentially what they say it is. That still leaves plenty of room for twists on the man vs machine typical ending...it certainly won't be like the Terminator movies, that's for sure (I hope). Someone once suggested that the reason humans are used and not cows in the power plant (along with all the physics evidence) was that the humans were all like memory storage (I'm no computer 'term' guy, but you know what I mean). That we need to be essentially 'concious' on some level (are they really unconcious in the pods? then what happens when they actually dream in the matrix? Deeper unconciousness?), so no lobotomies either, for it to work. I like this idea, but there's no real evidence except for the fact that the power plant thing is suspicious.
Finally: What do you mean by the 'cross platform Self Image and Two Independent Yet Synchronized Timelines'??? I don't expect a full exposition, but where in the above threads were those terms coined? I didn't notice anything specifically like that. It sounds juicy...hehehe...
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 3:58PM
If you wanna wax philosophic about AI Spoonboy, feel free to email me directly...I always enjoy a good session of realizing that you know nothing...hehehehe. I would go into more of my ideas here, but they would definitely get way off topic, and not be about the Matrix at all. There are enough posts as it is...I'll keep mine to Matrix stuff...8^)
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 3:59PM
And I don't mean the movie AI...lol...
Spoon BoyAug 22, 2003 at 7:01PM
RYUUYR says:
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you are saying that you didn't believe in a real world anywhere. How does THAT make sense???
I'm not saying I don't believe in a real world anywhere. That would be along the lines of Atheism, drawing a definitive conclusion on something that can't be concluded through proof. What I think is going on here is more along the lines of the Agnostic-based mentality. While there may indeed be a real world somewhere in The Matrix, it cannot be proven. Nor does it need to be proven for the Matrix to exist and be what it is. Again, just like Life.
I think a fair analogy would be to equate the possible "real world" (and the human programmers/creators of A.I.) in The Matrix story to the idea of "God" or "The Creator" in our universe. There are those who believe He exists through faith, there are Atheists who conclude He doesn't exist through their own brand of faith, and there are the Agnostics who believe that, while He may exist, it cannot be proven so, and therefore conclude that it would be out of line to conclude that He does. lol... gotta love that sentence, yes? :)
So, back to your question, replacing one word... Does Agnosticism make sense??? Depends on who you ask, I suppose. :)
The only thing I would have to scratch my head over is that there would have to be a 'real world' SOMEWHERE. I have agreed already that it wouldn't have to enter into the movie, in fact, it would indeed take away from it since it would then just open up to many avenues and unfinished questions (ten sequels), and artistically it could be self-contained
Yes, I agree. This is why I think MwM is too broad a label to tag onto folks like myself who believe biological humans need not play a part in this story.
Do you believe that there is a place where hardware machines exist and do anything?
Ah, great question. Right up there with the chicken egg one. ;)
As for 'believable', do you mean believable based on the clues in the movies, or believable 'as a movie ending'???
Based on clues in the movies. If biological humans are supposed to fit into the scheme of things in this story, then we've got some serious problems. See below...
What do you mean by the 'cross platform Self Image and Two Independent Yet Synchronized Timelines'???
OK, first, the problems I have with the idea of the Self Image, which had bothered me since 1999:
The story's concept of "self image" states that your "Matrix identity" matches your "physical pod body's identity". In other words, if the Matrix's Tom Anderson had brown hair, brown eyes, and a mole on his forehead, then the Zion Neo would too. When Neo came out of the pod, it struck me as a problem that he'd be able to look @ his face in the mirror on the Neb and recognize that face in the mirror as the familiar Tom Anderson he'd seen in the mirror all his life in the virtual world of the Matrix. It didn't bother me so much *how* the machines engineered the "self image" to match the physical characteristics of the "pod body" (i.e. maybe they had built-in scanners in the pods or some other convenient explanation.) What really struck me as weird was *why* the machines would care about matching a human mind's "self image" to its physical pod flesh, especially if 99.9% of the folks wouldn't live to see their pod flesh anyway.
The "All A.I. Theory" solves this problem.
Regarding the two timelines:
We have two distinctly different timelines:
1. The "Matrix timeline", based on 1999 U.S.A. culture, and
2. The "real world" timeline, where the Neb and Zion exist, in which the year is somewhere in the area of 2199 A.D.
I've always wondered:
Do events in the Matrix world occur in "real time" when compared to the "real world" timeline? Are the timelines independent of one another? Or are they synchronized?
The Matrix timeline is apparently in real time when compared to the real world (i.e. You go into the Matrix for an hour, and you've sat in your dentist chair for an hour. The real-time conversations between the jacked and Link/Tank prove this). Since this is the case, I'd like to hear from you what you think it was like in the Matrix, say, 100 years ago. From the perspective of the people in it. Also, upon the sixth reload, where in time did it start? And if reloaded again a seventh time, in what year would the seventh iteration begin?
If The Matrix as we see it in TM1 takes place in what *looks* like 1999 U.S.A., but @ the same time has *existed* for 200 years (on the real world calendar), then does this mean that The Matrix, when booted 200 years ago, started in what appeared to be 1799 U.S.A.? Did it have a 19th century? Civil War? Hitler? Bellbottoms? Or has it for the last 200 years been sort of "suspended" in a static and unchanging 1999-ish state?
Again, the "All A.I. Theory" solves this problem. Think of Pac-Man again.
More things to ponder regarding the two timelines and "history" of the Matrix, with questions targeting the nWmW camp who insist on biological humans being involved in this story:
Did Tom Anderson have a great-grandfather in the Matrix? Did his great-grandfather live his life in the Matrix thinking it was early 20th century? Before computers? Don't stop there. Tell me what young Tom Anderson learned in history class.
The only thing that makes sense in all this is that there are no biological humans. The population of Zion is a component of the larger system, necessary to keep it running. Trying to imagine the beginning of Zion is as senseless as trying to imagine our planet before it started spinning. i.e. Who gave the Earth it's first shove into its eternal spin? It's a good question, but it's pointless to devote mental energy trying to understand it. For all practical purposes, as far as we're concerned, the Earth has been spinning since its inception. In a similar sense, Zion has always been populated since its inception.
My guess is that this is the wavelength the bros W are on with regards to the timeline in this story.
Anyhow, is it just me, or is this thread getting clunky again? :) It's likely that we'll need to Reload again before November, otherwise we'll eat up all of Jason's bandwidth like we did last time.
Nice job, everybody. Keep it going.
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 10:19PM
Spoonboy: The Atheism/Agnostic analogy is good, I must have missed any reference to it before. I used to think of myself as atheist until I found out about the nature of the distinction (you'll see below why this still doesn't mean that I can be 'agnostic' about these theories though)...it makes sense indeed...but we assume that the real world are the creators of the virtual...why do we do that? If the real world is the way it appears on the surface, ie- not the total ai theory, then the machines would equate with god/creator, and the analogy is flawed. I agree that the total AI solves the problems you outline above, but does it solve every problem? I have asked a few questions (too many, so I know I can't be greedy, hehehe) above about possible things that cannot be solved by the Total AI Theory...they still stand, but I now know much more about where YOU stand...so thanks for that.
I still wonder about when you say, More things to ponder regarding the two timelines and "history" of the Matrix, with questions targeting the nWmW camp who insist on biological humans being involved in this story:..., so didn't you say also that humans could be the creators? You said I think: human programmers/creators of A.I. up above. I know I may be taking this slightly out of context, but in the very least it's indicative of doubt about NO human involvement? Just nitpicking there I think...sorry.
I am now going to ponder your two above mentioned problems, and while writing this, they're PROBLEMS indeed...jeeeez...I hope you won't overlook mine...I think they may have been touched on before, but I didn't think any answers convinced me. I certainly don't believe that it's completely as it seems on the surface based on the movies and the other material (I know that what YOU believe Spoonboy is on the surface to YOU...8^)...but I cannot think it's total AI...so far I am somewhere between your world and theirs (lol) as of this post...*sigh*
Spoon BoyAug 22, 2003 at 11:23PM
RYUUYR says:
does it solve every problem?
I wish. Don't we all! Unfortunately for us, there will always be unsolved problems in Life. All we can do is solve as many of them as we can.
I still wonder about when you say, More things to ponder regarding the two timelines and "history" of the Matrix, with questions targeting the nWmW camp who insist on biological humans being involved in this story:..., so didn't you say also that humans could be the creators?
That information in that post probably could've been organized better, sorry. That sentence (copied and pasted from Thread 1) was just lead-in to a series of questions that I was asking the nMwM camp specifically. I'm honestly interested how they would answer those questions if they believed biological humans were part of this story.
The "history" of the Matrix presented another problem for me if bio-humans are involved. How far back do their history books go? Is the Matrix able to simulate a world, say the year 1824, which is totally absent of computers? What would that world be like? What kind of environment did Tom Anderson's grandfather live in? Did he fight in WWII? Did he have an email address?
Understand that my All A.I. Theory does not mean I don't believe humans created the A.I. program that the Matrix is representing through art. Of course they did. But we're past that. The story is about the intelligent program itself, and its nature.
The human brain is a complex system worthy of scientific study. The fact that the human brain was created by God, or a Creator, does not necessarily mean we have to get into religion in order to study the human brain. It's its own thing.
RYUUYRAug 22, 2003 at 11:55PM
Well, there's no doubt that we're discussing the significance and repercussions of the details of the matrix as it applies to us...but I feel that I need (and seemingly others) to understand why, and not to just see this splice of 'what humans/AI would do'. It's fun to watch movies where they create a situation, and within it are lots of moral decisions, etc...but there are lots of those. I really hope the Matrix isn't one of them...at least not ONLY that. I think that to understand why, I need to get a broader scope, and therefore have to understand the force behind the 'why', ie- the creator/whatever of the matrix/matrices. Aren't we talking about all the angles? I can understand that a lot has been flushed out above (and how), but I feel that it's like a spiral staircase, one must come back to familiar territory once in a while, but just with a bit of a higher level of understanding. I'm not just trying to rehash the same ol' stuff, I'm just trying to look at it in a new light given all the stuff that came after. BTW - I'm still pondering those two things, I guess I'll add this latest one (but isn't it much like your addendum to the second one anyway?) 8^)
Brisvegas1Aug 23, 2003 at 11:19AM
Hey Folks,
Back after a long time away... good to see the thread still rolling along.
I know that I asked this question / made this suggestion in the original thread - but here I go again...
Have any of you read the work of science fiction author Greg Egan?
His specualtions regarding sofware based entities and the nature of consciousness have really shaped my views on the matrix movies.
For those of you who have wondered about the how and why of the various philisophical conundrum that populate the matrix series.
The strange thing is - the more I read / think about the matrix - the more the idea of a matrix within a matrix appeals to me - the more it suggests possibilities for where the story can go etc.
The only problem with this is - I just can't see the brothers going down that path... moreover, after watching the new trailer I really don't get the impression that we are talking about Zion in the sense of a virtual world.
So if it isn't a matrix within a matrix - whats left.
Well for me the idea of Neo somehow using his implant to communicate with the matrix - well that doesn't appeal to me - it seems to convienient, a plot device that the W. Bros. would of rejected as being too "just so" / clichéd much for the same reasons they rejected a matrix within a matrix idea.
If neo now has power in the real world I think it is going to have to relate to something like him having realised / reached enlightenment about the computational / informational nature of the real world.
There is much more precedent for this sort of thing - like his realisation of the nature of the matrix in the first movie. Wheras - his implant has only ever been any use when jacked into a bunch of machinery.
The thing I don't like about this is that it would seem too much like magic unless the W. Bros can find some way of explaning the mechanism of action for this rewriting of the information/calculations that drive the real world (to a level that is at least as satisfying as the explanation they provided in the first matrix movie)
Personally - I think that one of the big foci of the next film will be the issue of choice and morality /ethics.
Essentially you are going to see Neo confronted with the following dillema:
Make a choice and see 1. The population of Zion be wiped out, 2. - The human population of the matrix be wiped out, 3. - The population of machine intelligences be wiped out.
Think about it, we have had all these hints that there is something more than clockwork about the machines. They want to survive, they are intelligent etc - they once had a city in which they flourished.... what has happened to them in the intervening years?
My guess is that neo is going to find it just as unacceptable to wipe out an entire population of machine intelligences as he would, wiping out the human populations of the matrix or zion.
In order for this dillema to feel real we are going to have to actually see something of the world of the machines.. go inside the machine mainframe - visit the successor to the city of Zero One. That is something I am really looking forward to ;)
So the idea of smith starts to make more sense now.
Here is something that threatens both the realm of machines and humans...
If neo somehow sacrafices himself to save both worlds - well that might be the first step towards peace between humans and machines.
Well that just how I see it at the moment. No doubt I am wrong and the W. Brothers have someting even wilder in store for us. At any rate I'm guessing that the current (matrix in a matrix) and (zion is the real world and neo has powers in the real world) arguments are a little too black and white to represent where this series is going to end up...
Sure, in the end it may boil down to one of the two options being correct - but I think in terms of the overall stroy - that is going to be of less importance than several other potential plot points.
Anyway - that is it for me at the moment - I can't wait to see how much further I can follow this thread down the rabbit hole.
Cheers,
Brisvegas1
Old_GbboAug 24, 2003 at 5:09PM
Follow me with this one... :)
Neo: Where am I?
Morpheus: More importantly than where.. is when. You believe it to be the year 1999, when in fact it is more like the year 2099.
I was watching M1 again, (the first time after reading all this stuff) and I noticed something I don't think anyone has posted on here.
When Neo is first getting the tour of the ship he walks by the plaque for the Neb. It is inscribed with the following:
"Neba-- (I'm not gonna try and spell the rest)
Made in the USA 2069"
Now, from the Animatrix was know Zion is directly under where 01 is, which is in the cradle of human civilization. Last time I checked.. that was not USA territory, and nothing is ever mentioned about countries in particular at all in the 2 movies.
So how is this possible? MwM?.. maybe
Remember ppl.. MwM may sound sorta cheezy.. but the success of the 3rd movie won't be what the plot is.. it will be how it's presented.
1 more thing. When the buddy comes to the door at the beginning to buy the disc from Neo it shows Neo's door. When it's closed you can only see 01 out of the 101 that is on the door. It is only when Neo opens the door do you see the full 101.
bake on..
Brisvegas1Aug 25, 2003 at 8:57AM
the fact that 01 is also the location for zion has also intrigued me - if you look at the diagram of zion you see in the movie and the game - it looks very similar to the diagram of zion seen in the animatrix.
even the name Zi-n ... Zero - One seem similar.
There are so many interesting twists that could come from this...
So, in the tradition of my wild theories from the first thread -
We have heard that the machines have a "mainframe" and we know that their software based AI is tied to neithr flesh or machines... so perhaps it runs on the mainframe.
But what if the mainframe is not a machine, but as I have suggested previously actually a distributed computer running on the "brain power" of the humans plugged into the matrix...
When the humans are living their lives in the matrix - they are manipulating matrix code - perhaps these manipulations are what runs the machine society.
Now the reason we haven't seen the world of the machines - their software world could be attributable to a couple of reasons... maybe the W. bros just can't concieve of what it would be like - or think that the audience couldn't understand a software only machine reality..
or maybe they are saving it for the third movie...
Or just maybe, maybe - we have already seen the machine world - and that World is Zion.
who knows - lets take it a step further - perhaps the war with the humans isn't over at all - maybe the machines are in a desperate race against time to breed a machine intelligence that humans can relate to - one that has human emotions - can feel and love.
A kind of reverse turing test - where the machines are tying to prove that they can be human - rather than humans trying to see if machines can be intelligent.
As we saw from the animatrix the machines have already reached out twice - once in friendship and once as aggressors - perhaps neo is some third way....
Told you it was wild.
Matt RixAug 25, 2003 at 9:24AM
Wow - just discovered this lengthy tome by chance. Still reading through the immensely interesting archive (well done all concerned).
I see that some have already mentioned the cult TV series The Prisoner here and here. However, I think this also affords a possible link to the D-Man graffitti. The Prisoner was effectively a reprise of Danger Man (D-Man?), a series which preceded it and which also starred Patrick McGoohan as the lead character.
Matt RixAug 25, 2003 at 10:04AM
I was going to wait to add these other thoughts, but I may as well mention them now. If they have been mentioned specifically before please forgive the repetition.
The significance of 303 has been mentioned, however, are there any thoughts on the significance of room 303 (in M1)? By this I mean that Trinity's room at the start is room 303, and the same room is the one Neo is trying to get to at the end. By this I mean not only is it also "room 303", it is also the exact same room 303 - in layout of the room itself and the corridor outside, down to the elavator at the end of the corridor (which still seems to have police incident tape across it for Neo's visit - following Trinity's escapades?). Trinity runs out of the corridor the same way Neo runs into it. Of course, it could be just a neat "bookends" item for the film, and it could also be simply a case of re-using the same set. Also, when Trinity was there, the hard-line had been cut, hence her hasty exit, yet when Neo was there it was working again.
Also, in M2. When watching the first time, I was distracted by the Oracle's "candy" - which to me looked exactly like the red pill taken by Neo in M1. Neo takes some, but does not consume. The Oracle does eat one, however. This has been mentioned before. However, Morpheus describes the red pill in M1 as "part of a trace program" to find his location. Soon after the Oracle eats her pill, Agent Smith turns up - coincidence? It has been asked before how he got there - and how Seraph knows he is coming but does not warn Neo - does this answer those questions?
Spoon BoyAug 25, 2003 at 1:11PM
Matt Rix (real or dead) says:
I see that some have already mentioned the cult TV series The Prisoner here and here. However, I think this also affords a possible link to the D-Man graffitti. The Prisoner was effectively a reprise of Danger Man (D-Man?), a series which preceded it and which also starred Patrick McGoohan as the lead character.
Interesting. We talked about D-MAN here in the first thread:
http://www.kottke.org/plus/misc/matrixreloaded.html#3040
Morpheus describes the red pill in M1 as "part of a trace program" to find his location. Soon after the Oracle eats her pill, Agent Smith turns up - coincidence?
I like your thinking. I just don't know what good a tracing program does on the Oracle since, after all, there is no pod body to be traced. As Morpheus described, the red pill tracing program altered the in/out signals from the pod body's brain, allowing the Nebbers to pinpoint the location of a pod body *outside* of the Matrix.
Back to your question: How and why was Smith able to show up in the courtyard? The D-MAN (Download Manager) reference in that scene offers an awesome metaphor to bake over. Sticking to the programming concept and regarding the Matrix as a representation complex computer program, just imagine that the Agents simply had access permissions to the courtyard, as dictated by the administrative settings in the Download Manager. It works perfectly.
Old Gobbo says:
1 more thing. When the buddy comes to the door at the beginning to buy the disc from Neo it shows Neo's door. When it's closed you can only see 01 out of the 101 that is on the door. It is only when Neo opens the door do you see the full 101.
Love it.
Old_GbboAug 25, 2003 at 4:13PM
Hmm.... what do ppl make of the "System Failure" thing at the end of M1?
There is something about that whole scene that just doesn't sit right
I wouldn't be suprised at all if that scene wasn't part of the timeline we're led to believe.
Matt RixAug 25, 2003 at 4:25PM
Spoon Boy Says:
I like your thinking. I just don't know what good a tracing program does on the Oracle since, after all, there is no pod body to be traced. As Morpheus described, the red pill tracing program altered the in/out signals from the pod body's brain, allowing the Nebbers to pinpoint the location of a pod body *outside* of the Matrix.
Well surely if it's disrupting the "input-output carrier signal" then whomever is watching for the disrupted signal will be able to trace whichever is required - the destination or the source of the signal. Morpheus was looking for the physical manifestation end of the connection in the "real world", but surely the representation in the matrix could also be located from the signal in a similar way.
bellAug 26, 2003 at 8:02AM
NEO, yes? So why show us, the witnesses, the interaction with Smith and Cypher? As a movie device, it's great, 'we know he's bad, but they don't...mwahahahaha'...but why bother showing us if it doesn't REALLY apply to NEO?
how can this not apply to neo, cypher is the one who gives away the neb crew's position to smith when they are in the matrix. Cypher throws phone into dustbin...m1 is all about an elaborate set of events that are set by design in order for neo to believe in the speil morph is telling him, die and then become the one. cypher is a cog in this very wheel.
bellAug 26, 2003 at 8:07AM
what came first the chicken or the egg... the egg of course...from the life form that preceded the chicken on the evolutionary scale...
bellAug 26, 2003 at 8:47AM
Quantum Consciousness
Overview:
Many neuroscientists believe that consciousness is simply a property which emerges from the complexity of the brain's neural networks. These people are known as reductionists because they claim that emotions, your "inner life", and free will, can all be explained by (reduced to) complex patterns of computer-like processing between the neurons of the brain.
Another group of people, known as dualists, believe that consciousness and free will lie outside the realm of science. They take a "dual" view of the world. Although they agree that science is very good at explaining the world around us, they claim science will never be able to explain our inner world. They believe something mysterious and fundamentally inexplicable is responsible for consciousness.
A third group of people suggest that although science is capable of explaining consciousness it has not yet progressed far enough to be able to do so. Two such people are Roger Penrose of Oxford University, England, and Stuart Hameroff of the University of Arizona, USA. Roger Penrose suspects that consciousness is somehow a feature of fundamental physical reality itself. That is, that consciousness exists everywhere and throughout every piece of matter and every piece of empty space in the universe. Stuart Hameroff then suggests that this "pool of consciousness" is tapped into during quantum computation in the brain. The elements of the brain that could perform this quantum computation are not the neuron cells themselves, but rather the small protein molecules which make up the internal neural cytoskeleton.
This theory is of importance to our attempts to build artificially intelligent machines because if the theory turns out to be correct then we will have to incorporate this quantum behaviour into the design of our artificial brains
I think that is what the architect is striving toward to understand the inner working of the human mind/consciousnes... the untangible...every time the one reaches the source...perhaps as weel as the prime program being reactivated, one assumes all data and info on human behavior/interactions/emotional responce is also down loaded. in this iteration neo has explored the love an abstract concept that the A.I. would no little of. the machines are trying to attain quantum consciousness...
bellAug 26, 2003 at 9:01AM
brisvegas says: But what if the mainframe is not a machine, but as I have suggested previously actually a distributed computer running on the "brain power" of the humans plugged into the matrix...
not as way out as you may think,to take it further what if all we have seen is simply manifested the unconscious mind of all the humans who are rigged up to the matrix...perhaps humans willingly opted to live in the matrix but the unforseen side effects generation later, are born of there own imaginations...question...if someone is asleep in the matrix as apposed to carrying out the land ladies garbage...one is not awake in either case, yes? though i assume when carrying out the garbage it just means the brain is more active? than when asleep in the matrix (dream within a dream) do theses dreams within dreams manifest themselves??
bellAug 26, 2003 at 9:55AM
i noticed in the new m3 trailer near the end http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/(watch in slow mo) the logos or another ship is where the pod fields are, looks like the ship is landing.
bake on...
bellAug 26, 2003 at 10:50AM
ryuuyr, i think MwM help answer these questions
1)how can you explain neo dreaming about trinity dying when he is not jacked in?
2)how come the architect has trinity dying on his screens, the very vision neo has?
3)how does the oracle also know of neo vision?
4)are the council in league with the machines, as when sending two ships to find the neb they contribute to the eventual outcome of neo reaching the architect?
5)the keymaker says to niobe, when she ask's him "how do you know this", he reply's "it is my purpose", "it is why i am here, it is why we are all here" niobe is also there by design in the same way that the keymaker is, how do you explain this?
6)the matrix code at the beginning of the film is identical to a scene near the end of the film in m2, which shows a drill heading toward zion. why would it show zion in matrix code?
7)is the spoon in m2 signifying the same meaning as it did in m1, that there is no spoon...matrix is unreal...zion is unreal?
8)how does neo stop the sentinnals...because there is no spoon...there is no sentinnal?
9)where the hell is the evidence of previous zion's?
10)how come morpheus thinks there is only one previous iteration?
11)it's one hell of a coincidence that one of the ships were destroyed, and trinity was forced to go into the matrix? even if zion was in the real world surely the architect would have to know crew complement of the neb, how will the architect know for certain that trin will go into the matrix at the exact time needed in order to die, and cloud neo's judgement and manipulate him into going through the door he wants?
there are many more example's, will watch the films again...
GhostAug 26, 2003 at 11:52AM
Bell says:
1. How can you explain neo dreaming about trinity dying when he is not jacked in?
I'm not going to attempt to answer all of your questions as I undoubtedly could come up with an opposing argument to each. But even though your conclusion is the most obvious there are issues that the MWM theory does not support.
As far as the statement I’ve quoted from you, it can be explained simply by something that I have tried repeatedly to lead you guys on to. It is the idea that in the world(s) of the Matrix there is a greater power that watches down. Mabey you call it God, Allah, or Bubba whatever. Is it so hard to fathom that above all the thing that is leading Neo's Company could be an almighty force outside the machine control?
Mabey the Matrix had a level of control installed but because of the intervention of this "force", this time, the One will succeed in toppling the oppressive system....
bellAug 26, 2003 at 11:59AM
http://www.countingdown.com/movies/320843
/board?viewpost=3179809&folder=0 similar to xzaust theory, though worth a read...
bellAug 26, 2003 at 12:19PM
ghost says:Is it so hard to fathom that above all the thing that is leading Neo's Company could be an almighty force outside the machine control?
you make a valid and interesting point, but it depends on what that power is, im a spiritual person, though i dont beleive in any god's, though i do practice the teachings of budda, and walk the path to enlightenment. though i am aware that there is no path to walk in order to reach enlightenment, and that it is somewhere within me. though i cant put faith in the intangible christian/catholic gods whatever, though some of the morality tales are good and admittedly the bible civilised and educated the country i live in 1000AD. though i believe there are higher levels of being on other planets, but it is all about perspective. how would the early man perceive us, if he saw us in our cars and flying machines. did the egyptians see life forms who are a just a little more advanced as we are today, and turned them into god's, same can be said for the summarians or the mesapatonians and the aztects...the prophesey is cyclical and functional (i believe that the w's expose religion for what it is a crutch that rejects logic, and blinds people from the truth, though if this works for some people...each to there own i do not wish to affend theses are just my opinions), though there has to be a time when neo replaces faith with hope and bloody do something, faith is static...hope is taking action
bellAug 26, 2003 at 12:28PM
my point to my previous post was that i dont believe its gonna be bogus journey :) though it would be cool if station was in revolutions - im in a loosey mood today, bloody flu...dont mean to affend...i dont think a higher intangible power will intervene at any stage in m3. maybe a machine pretending, i dont know...
GhostAug 26, 2003 at 1:09PM
I suppose that since the second flick my idea that there was a divine intervention has weaned. But if you look @ the first it does give that impression.
1. As far as us not knowing what the Oracle was or where she got her power from.
2. The direction the flick took with Neo having this inevitable goal that was out of his control (as it was his destiny), set up by somthing.
3. When Neo died and was reborn I took that, as something possessed him from a higher plane (Manifesting in him a supreme consciousness).
It wasn't until Reloaded that we learned that the Machine was controlling all of these (Divine like) happenings. Indeed playing the roll of god.
But I have to wonder. If I take the world of the Matrix seriously, (I undoubtedly do) then I start to think: would a Supreme Being somewhere allow all of humanity to be enslaved?
One more thing before i go: If it is a Matrix within a Matrix then Neo's battle in M3 has the significance of less that nothing. There is no Battle. If the machines were going to loose then they would just pull Neo's plug in the real world. Good-by. So if it is, then why has everything happened from m1 - m2? In that case nothing really fits because it all from the begining to the end was set up.
bellAug 26, 2003 at 1:18PM
i think who ever the mother is, could be the key...the architect looks so much like freud (or colonel saunders) that perhaps the w's are leading us to a visual clue of who the mother is...trinity...freud ranted on about oedipus (ive mentioned this before, but a topic that i feel needs closer inspection)... anybody...
GhostAug 26, 2003 at 1:19PM
Ok. This is all I’m saying.......
Besides some wild theory (that is more fun to come up with then practical and logical), where do think the W's are going to go with an ending based on the MwM theory. I just can't see how that could logically play into or continue the series and end up completing it ??????
bellAug 26, 2003 at 1:47PM
right you have those who accept the matrix 99% there happy as they accept it oblivious, then there are the zionist's fussy bastards who dont accept the matrix because they want more choice. so the smart old architect and the mother???? create zion for those who dont accept it, beleiving to be the real world they embrace all that the matrix doesnt give them religion faith and sense of purpose, keep them quiet for a while... but the anomoly screws things up and and the system seems to need rebooting, because the anomoly led by dosey/or the architect in disguise morpheus who blags the one into freeing every one into zion. (perhaps there is a temporay balance attained between matrix and zion, i dont know!) bugs appear every where and the system needs rebooting. if zion is real neo has some explaining to do...
"You are the 16 beautiful women and 7 ugly men I have choosen to rebuild Zion."
- "Don't mind the 250 000 dead bodies, the machines will send someone to clean it up"
- "You have recieved full training, downloaded to your brains, on how to operate the sophisticated machinery you have available here. By the way, the machines asked me to tell you to treat their equipment with respect."
- "You have also got a really cool computer mainframe, but before you can start using it you must change the access codes, and later the machines will try to guess them. It's a little game they play."
- "In approximately 100 years we are going to have a rave party and we are going to need alot of people there to make some noise. Since the human reproduction cycle is so lengthy, we'll have to free people who feel they have a splinter in their mind from the matrix."
- "After the rave, everybody will be killed, and it will all start over again. Any questions? Good. Let's go!"
i think if zion is in the matrix then the story ark will be about the humans learning to control the matrix and create a more symbiotic relationship with the machines...more harmonious relationship...neos/and smiths evolutionary step forward will play some part in this i suspect.
Spoon BoyAug 26, 2003 at 2:19PM
where do think the W's are going to go with an ending based on the MwM theory
If my suspicions are valid, they will indicate to us that what we've been watching in the first two movies is simply the sixth revolution of an endlessly repeating loop. What we've been watching is a computer process, or cycle, in which every element of the movie is a necessary component of a larger whole.
How the Wbros will indicate this to us is largely a matter of artistic technique. What would be ridiculously cool would be to confirm the relevance of the 101 references as directly associated with the sixth revolution by repeating a scene we've scene previously, but swapping the 101 with 110, indicating to us that we're now on the seventh revolution. A good scene for this would be the beginning of M1, with Neo waking up in his apartment.
The commercial downside to such a conclusion would be that it will probably leave a lot of people confused, and therefore unsatisfied. But who cares? There are already many people who feel alienated by Reloaded, so I see no reason to aim low now. Let George Lucas handle those folks. :)
ghostAug 26, 2003 at 2:48PM
The artistic technique will be all that is left if they choose that ending. Because the artistic technique will become the "why". The "why" will explain to us why this is happening over and over and that will be all that matters to us. Kind of anticlimatic.
But can we all agree that Z10N real or not will be faught over and won by the end?
Spoon BoyAug 26, 2003 at 2:53PM
But can we all agree that Z10N real or not will be faught over and won by the end?
Probably not. :)
There is no Z10N...
GhostAug 26, 2003 at 4:24PM
I will say this much. I'm not 100% backing any particular camp of thought. Actually neither MWM or REAL Z10N satisfies me. I think this might help everyone understand:
Neo: But if that's true, that can mean you are a part of this system, another kind of control.
The Oracle: Keep going.
Neo: I suppose the most obvious question is how can I trust you?
The Oracle: Bingo! It is a pickle, no doubt about it. The bad news is there's no way if you can really know whether I'm here to help you or not. So it's really up to you. You just have to make up your own damn mind to either accept what I'm going to tell you, or reject it. Candy?
Neo shouldn't trust the Tech just like he shouldn't trust the Oracle. The Tech only has reason to lie and no reason to tell the truth.
My ideas on the third movie are different than the two camps because I don't believe the whole Tech speech. Why should I? Sit back and try to think about things from that perspective and tell me where you come up for air....
RYUUYRAug 26, 2003 at 7:38PM
A few questions before TRYING to answer some of the above. Also, a statement: I don't believe in a Z10N in the real world completely...but I KNOW I don't believe in the simple MwM theory. The thing that gets me NOT believing in a simple 'Z10N is real' is all due to good ol' Spoonboy....
Ok...so, whether this has been asked or not, I guess at this point it won't matter, it needs to be asked: 'why does everyone assume that all the previous One's would look like Keanu Reeves?' It can't possibly be because of the screens behind our Neo in M2, since there are more than five at some points. The fact that the camera goes 'into' the screen could certainly mean that we're going somewhere else, and would support Spoonboy and his simultaneous stuff from a thousand posts ago. It could be that we're seeing the actuality of the potential for another decision that he could make (I KNOW that's been mentioned before) rather than just WATCHING the possibilities. Perhaps the first Neo to walk in would have chosen differently since many of them obviously DON'T believe the 'tect. I have no other idea why any of you assume that any other One's look like Neo except that you believe that the reload would just create the same image everytime. I had thought of all that Spoonboy, to try to oppose one of your above points, but it turned into just another point of contention, since it could go either way...*sigh* The circle theory in action...hehehehe...a REAL circle will always be a spiral...won't it? Each revolution we go UP a level like a spiral staircase. And that DOESN'T prove the no Z10n theory...hehehe...it just proves that the humans are in the matrix for a different reason that Morpheus thinks...and I know many of you already KNOW that...almost for a fact...
Next question: Could a previous ONE have entered the Source WITHOUT having been freed (and I mean in the context of the movie, not ACTUALLY freed as opposed to mwm freed)??? This doesnt' really strike me as a very important question yet...but give me some time...hehehehe. I mean...if the 'tect isn't lying too much (and whether he needs to or not is something I'll try to explain to myself soon...hehehe), then all Neo's purpose is to complete the cirlce, so to speak, and reinsert the code that can't be calculated withing the imperfect system. My personal belief is that the software/machines cannot concieve of a perfect circle since it's mathematcially imperfect (as far as we know), isn't it? So wouldn't that be the equation that 'tects talking about? I mean, it's not a leap I'm making there or anything, you guys led me to that, and perhaps I missed someone saying it, but unless the matrix runs on more than just digital code, and it certainly SEEMS to only run on digital code, given all the clues in binary, it wouldn't be able to concieve of something that can't actually be constructed could it? Perhaps the alternate 'power station' plan is to actually better themselves not so much to BE like humans, but to be ABLE to be like humans, so that they could move on. Ah well...I've run outta steam on that one...have to come back to it later...
Last thing...BELL, there's as much proof of previous Z10N's as there is for a virtual Z10N, NONE. Any proof you choose to support MwM, there is another idea that it can't prove. The Cypher scene still stands out to me, despite your above post. So assuming that Z10N IS real for a moment, NEO chose the door that the other ONE's didn't choose seemingly, so why would he ever have to set up another Z10N and explain all those (admittedly) funny statements above??? He has changed the pattern, altered the loop. That's assuming everything we hear is true, which I don't completely, but who am I to pick and choose? Hehehehe...8^)
Old_GobboAug 27, 2003 at 12:47PM
Ok.. you guys, (and girls?), take a second and listen to what I have to say for a sec.
Clearly 2 sides have developed here, Real Zion and MwM, and I agree whole hardedly that those 2 sides are infact the axis for trying to conclude how these movies will end.
But take a step back and look at what exactly you've been doing. Instead of trying to help each other you've been just trying to prove each other wrong. You've got these rooted opinions, probably formed the first 2 times you watched the movies (Spoon Boy's name for instance), and you're trying to hold onto them instead of realizing they don't matter anyways.
Wash the slate clean, get back to exploring the philosophical questions that each side provokes, do that and maybe you'll get a better picture of how m3 will turn out and appreciate it even more.
Spoon BoyAug 27, 2003 at 1:47PM
RYUUYR says:
why does everyone assume that all the previous One's would look like Keanu Reeves?
While you can argue that it's semi-speculation, we're (for now) assuming that the previous Ones looked like Reeves for the one main reason you refer to:
When the Architect tells Neo he's "quicker than the others" and that this is the "sixth version" of the Matrix, we see the other monitor Neos respond very specifically to the same comment. One of them is reacting with five fingers, another is reacting with three fingers, and so on, simultaneously, as Neo6 is reacting also. This suggests that these visuals on the monitors are records, or logs, of the previous versions and their reactions to the Architect's statements.
True, there are many more than five Neos in the monitors, particularly toward the end of the scene, where they all go towards Door 2. It's unclear what all these "duplicate" Neos signify. For now I've regarded them as future Neos, whose behaviours remain identical to that of Neo6 until their time comes in subsequent revolutions.
Another indication that Neos 1-5 looked like Reeves is Smith's comments to himself, talking about "just like last time"..."well, almost like last time", etc.
You can argue otherwise. Please do, if you're feeling it. That's what this thread is for.
stillinthebigMAug 27, 2003 at 3:56PM
)how can you explain neo dreaming about trinity dying when he is not jacked in?
We already accept that programs and the like can be downloaded into the human brain for example neo earning to fight in M1 and Trinity asking for a download to hotwire a motorcycle. Anyway his dreams of trinity could just have been another program downloaded previously and written to activate at a later time as "memories" hallucinations, visions or what have you, a hook up isn't needed then. If you have read The Wonderland Gambit by Chalker you may get some idea of this.
2)how come the architect has trinity dying on his screens, the very vision neo has?
What this also points to is the most likely scenario that zion is not necessarily the real world but just another program of the matrix. In that case so is the idea of returning to the source. That is also program designed to trigger a reload as the title of the film is aptly called the matrix reloaded.That is also the meaning of the cause/effect speech of the Merov. But there is something else going on too. It seems like a sort of battle between programmers for dominant influence over the 'anomaly' or a sort of battle for supremacy between machines. An indication of this is involved in Neo's relationship to Trinity and the role of the oracle and persephone. The oracle and even Perse gives the illusion that they are going along a program for keeping the matrix going but their real motivation is to acquire the complexity of human consciousness and emotions. This is why Perse wants a kiss. It invoke the sensations that true love inspires but she doesn't really feel it. Trin is a wildcard but also very important. Her name implies some kind of symbiosis or really a unity of two to produce a third more complex being/state or what have you. That makes me lean to toward the oedipal complex between think someone mentioned between Trin and the architect. But then what is the oracle? Is it someone who figures out a way to play both sides to gain what she deems ncessary-symbiosis of man and machine?It also could be that the oracle was the mother who realized the Archi is as 'harmful' for the machines as machines are for humans and decides on a rogue course of events to ensure the One fulfills the role but differently this time. This time he will force by his actions a symbiosis without even realizing it because it's the only real means of survival. This would explain the necessicity of trinity no matter what her movives are.
3)how does the oracle also know of neo vision?
Because she is motivated by survival of both machines and man so she sets things up in a way that allows for a certain course of events. She can predict certain things about neo because she designed the programs to allow for that.
4)are the council in league with the machines, as when sending two ships to find the neb they contribute to the eventual outcome of neo reaching the architect?
I think so consciously or not they are accounted for in the grand scheme of things. Meaning they are also driven by programs written and executed by others be that of the architect or the mother.
5)the keymaker says to niobe, when she ask's him "how do you know this", he reply's "it is my purpose", "it is why i am here, it is why we are all here" niobe is also there by design in the same way that the keymaker is, how do you explain this?
Every single thing, or person has a purpose for the matrix. Either it contributes to it's existence or contributes to the rogue element's plans to destroy or change via a true symbiotic relationship (revolution). In a sense one can say there is already a sort of symbiotic relatioship between the machines and the humans-note the counselor's speech to neo. It's just not one that ensures the continuing existence of both because it includes an unbalance. An unbalance that if left unchecked increasingly leads to chaos and eventually total destruction for all. Remember the remainder of an unbalanced equation idea by the architect? The architect sees dealing with the unbalance by reloading the matrix via the function of the one. The oracle sees dealing with the unbalance by a balanced symbiosis of machinelike abilities but with the range of human emotions. I think emotions is the expression of or allowance for free will in a mainly deterministic universe. I see the symbiosis as the way for the W bros to go just based on Neo and Bane both being unconscious on the table. They will be the first real man /machine combo. Alpha/Omega they need each other at the same time continue to be at each other's throats because it's how it must be for both to come to the table at their best. I think Smith figured this out but Neo hasn't yet.
6)the matrix code at the beginning of the film is identical to a scene near the end of the film in m2, which shows a drill heading toward zion. why would it show zion in matrix code?
Because Zion is part of the Matrix by it's very function as a means of dealing with a flaw in the matrix design.
7)is the spoon in m2 signifying the same meaning as it did in m1, that there is no spoon...matrix is unreal...zion is unreal?
Exactly! Spoon indicates zion is unreal and it's the mind that chooses whether Zion is or isn't. Don't bend the spoon bend your mind.
8)how does neo stop the sentinnals...because there is no spoon...there is no sentinnal?
Yes in a sense. The sentinals are just constructs.
9)where the hell is the evidence of previous zion's?
Who knows, the architect could have been lying for all I know but at least some of what he says must hold some truth- truth can be given in a manner that manipulates a particular outcome.
It was clear the architect was manipulatiing in order to gain a particular outcome regardless of what he said.
10)how come morpheus thinks there is only one previous iteration?
He name signifies Dream, he is dreaming that he is in the real world unhooked to the matrix.
11)it's one hell of a coincidence that one of the ships were destroyed, and trinity was forced to go into the matrix? even if zion was in the real world surely the architect would have to know crew complement of the neb, how will the architect know for certain that trin will go into the matrix at the exact time needed in order to die, and cloud neo's judgement and manipulate him into going through the door he wants?
He would know if he wrote or had a say in the writing of the program.
Smith is interesting too in that he realizes things are nothing like it seems and in a sense no longer serves the purpose he was designed for. He also wants symbiosis because he realizes it's necessary, regardless of the fact that he behaves otherwise. I think he really understood this when as Bane he cut himself and 'saw' blood. Did he feel the cut as a human may have? Maybe gained the ability of some form of sensation via his death at the hands of neo.
there are many more example's, will watch the films agai
I've seen it 4 times and still there is so much more. As discussed on this forum and elsewhere, elements of numerology, gnosticism, philosophy, math, even quantum mechanics are all there. There is also buddhism, cyberpunk, standard hollywood shoot em up etc. There is something for everyone in these Matric films if you're asleep or awake. The W bros layered the rabbit hole quite well indeed and I'm looking forward to revolutions. Though I still don't 'get it' I recommend a reading of neuromancer (dry read though shows the lengths a machine will go for 'symbiosis') and the Wonderland Gambit (all three books) along with a good dose of metaphysics.
GhostAug 27, 2003 at 3:56PM
Now it's never been arguing, it's more like Italian Dinner Table Discussion to me :-)
When "One of them is reacting with five fingers, another is reacting with three fingers, and so on, simultaneously with Neo6", I originally and still believe that can be interpreted as Neo's thoughts. He is thinking "Wait; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 other ones????, ahhhhh!!!". The monitors are then reading those thoughts and displaying them each time his mind contemplates the existence of an additional Neo.
I also strongly respect the fact that they could possibly be the images of previous Ones, but when I picture that it somehow sits wrong with me. I thought about why and came up with the following thoughts(questions).
Chew on these for a second:
1. Now if you believe the Those Previous Neo's looked and acted the same as him then do you believe all the Neo’s are programs or do you believe they were all biologically engineered clones?
2. If you believe they were Biological clones then do you believe that Morph; Trin, Cypher, etc were as well? Even more do you believe everyone in the matrix in each cycle is a clone of the last?
3. If Neo looked the same that would lead me to believe that everything was the same all actions, people, and places. I find that that thought doesn’t work with me but I guess it has to, doesn’t it? But I think human kind is an unpredictable bunch don't ya think?
GhostAug 27, 2003 at 4:24PM
Bravo stillinthebigM, great post. I really, really like the idea that the humans have triggers that induce certain actions or suggest certain actions. That helps explain alot about how 6 cycles are possible when dealing with human unpredictability.
What does the big M stand for? :-)
stillinthebigMAug 27, 2003 at 4:32PM
I know this forum is about the movie but...
Some people say the Matrix is just a movie but as I look into the concepts and issues raised in the Matrix films I have to wonder what the Wbros were really trying to say. It's obvious the film is made in a manner to appeal to as many types of people as possible. So why could be because of the turn our society has taken, a turn that many haven't noticed because they go about their merry lives as if they really are in a matric.
Below sounds like a conspiracy theory but was a real discussion between real people.:
By Harry V. Martin and David Caul
Copyright © FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995 Copyright © Napa Sentinel, 1991,
in Part II we find the following regarding a Dr. Jose Delgado,
Doctor Jose Delgado: "Man does not have the right to develop his own mind." (Congressional Record, New York Times)
"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated.
"The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective.
"Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electric stimulation of the brain."
These were the remarks of Dr. Jose Delgado as they appeared in the February 24, 1974 edition of the Congressional Record, No. 262E, Vol. 118.
Despite Dr. Delgado's outlandish statements before Congress, his work was financed by grants from the Office of Naval Research, the Air Force Aero-Medical Research Laboratory, and the Public Health Foundation of Boston.
Dr. Delgado was a pioneer of the technology of Electrical Stimulation of the Brain (ESB). The New York Times ran an article on May 17, 1965 entitled Matador With a Radio Stops Wild Bull. The story details Dr. Delgado's experiments at Yale University School of Medicine and work in the field at Cordova, Spain. The New York Times stated:
"Afternoon sunlight poured over the high wooden barriers into the ring, as the brave bull bore down on the unarmed matador, a scientist who had never faced fighting bull. But the charging animal's horn never reached the man behind the heavy red cape. Moments before that could happen, Dr. Delgado pressed a button on a small radio transmitter in his hand and the bull braked to a halt. Then he pressed another button on the transmitter, and the bull obediently turned to the right and trotted away. The bull was obeying commands in his brain that were being called forth by electrical stimulation by the radio signals to certain regions in which fine wires had been painlessly planted the day before."
According to Dr. Delgado, experiments of this type have also been performed on humans. While giving a lecture on the Brain in 1965, Dr. Delgado said, "Science has developed a new methodology for the study and control of cerebral function in animals and humans."
in a discussion of the above amongst several people resulted in the below:
B I O T E C H N O L O G Y
Every living thing on this planet today is viewed as being entirely
expendable from the perspective of the survivability factor in terms of
long range existence tens to hundreds of thousands of years into the
future and beyond.
"Expendable" is a term of economics. Equating the once sacred term "living" with
"expendable" is evidence of the inevitable economic triumph of biotechnology.
Eventually, if not already, life is just a biochemical function, to be exploited
and subjected to intellectual copyright. But, as you say, this is just the short-term.
Nothing alive today in its current form or modality
is going anywhere. Period. Therefore, someone with unimaginable foresight
may or may not be making "adjustments" behind the scenes. These hypothetical
"adjustments" would have to be perfomed in secret because Mr. and Mrs.
Biosphere aren't really sure yet if they understand the short range ethics
of biotechnology, let alone the inevitable large scale transhuman engineering
which will occur much further down the road, openly.
Transhuman? Why such a limited approach? The concept of species is already extinct,
that border no longer exists. Genes get scrambled more easily than illegals
crossing a border. Consciousness will be excised, knocked out, snipped, a useless
artifact. We will dissolve into a transgenic pool and will emerge as
transquantized, transnaniological units of potential utility; distinct and unique,
and extremely brief. Not so different from what we are now, unperceived.
More about Dr. Delgado here:
http://earthops.org/delgado.html
stillinthebigMAug 27, 2003 at 4:38PM
What does the big M stand for? :-)
Why, the big Matrix of course. ;-)
Old_GobboAug 27, 2003 at 5:02PM
When the guy comes to the door to buy the disc from Neo the "book" he opens to get the disk out of is titled "Simulacra and Simulation"
Simulacra: An image or representation.
An unreal or vague semblance.
Simulation: The act or process of simulating.
An imitation; a sham.
Assumption of a false appearance.
Anyelse find that ironically funny?
As well...
at the very beginning of M1 during the conversation with Cyper and Trinity, Cypher says the following
"We're going to kill him.. you know that"
Any ideas?
Spoon BoyAug 27, 2003 at 7:22PM
Ghost says:
Chew on these for a second:
1. Now if you believe the Those Previous Neo's looked and acted the same as him then do you believe all the Neo’s are programs or do you believe they were all biologically engineered clones?
I believe everything in the film symbolizes a component of a larger computer program (i.e. the program Morpheus referred to as A.I.). The Oracle, the Architect, the One, the Agents, Z10N, etc. A total absence of biological humans, cloned or otherwise. When Morpheus described A.I., he was describing a computer program of which he is a component of. He just didn't know it. Yet.
2. If you believe they were Biological clones then do you believe that Morph; Trin, Cypher, etc were as well? Even more do you believe everyone in the matrix in each cycle is a clone of the last?
See #1.
3. If Neo looked the same that would lead me to believe that everything was the same all actions, people, and places. I find that that thought doesn’t work with me but I guess it has to, doesn’t it? But I think human kind is an unpredictable bunch don't ya think?
Yes, all the components are the same by design, but exist in different iterations of the program when it's running. Like the game Pac-Man. You and I have both played Pac-Man on completely separate pieces of hardware. You and I have both seen Inky, Blinky, Pinky, and Clyde. But they have no way of knowing this. The only thing they know is that their existence began when the current player put the most recent token in.
The real question is, would they be capable of understanding this if you explained it to them?
how does the oracle also know of neo vision?
The Oracle symbolizes the database from which the program pulls all its information.
Spoon BoyAug 27, 2003 at 7:27PM
Old_Gobbo says:
When the guy comes to the door to buy the disc from Neo the "book" he opens to get the disk out of is titled "Simulacra and Simulation"
This is a real book, a book that the Wbros gave to Keanu, Fishburne, and Carrie-Anne Moss before even giving them the script. The Matrix expands upon the themes discussed in this thick read.
at the very beginning of M1 during the conversation with Cyper and Trinity, Cypher says the following
"We're going to kill him.. you know that"
Any ideas?
I initially thought he was referring to "The Rule" they have about not bringing a pod body out too late in life. It was risky to target a man in his thirties like that. There may have been more to Cypher's statement now that I think about it, but I hadn't.
stillinthebigMAug 27, 2003 at 8:46PM
at the very beginning of M1 during the conversation with Cyper and Trinity, Cypher says the following
"We're going to kill him.. you know that"
Any ideas?
Cypher wasn't just betraying the resistance there was much to be understood from his statements. Maybe he realized it was ALL a construct and as such a waste of time fighting agents or training only to end up in another matrix. That's also why he called what was being told to Neo a mind job. It was!
I guess he figured if he was going to be under a control system he might as well do so in comfort even if it's only an illusion.
Knowing this maybe he thought if Neo continued in the role of the "one" as he was being pushed to by Morpheus and the others, it would kill him eventually.
Another thought is Tom Anderson/ Neo as he knew himself to be would die as a result of following the path of the one. Although the death did not mean the end of life. As we saw at the end of M1 it only meant the end of a certain kind of existence for him and also agent smith. If he is no longer a "normal" or "typical" human even by zion's standards, and agent smith is no longer a normal or typical machine then are both really is sort of dead? I can see the movie going in the direction of both of them existing as a little bit human and a little bit machine rather than either or. They would essentially be dead to what they were. They would both be essentially dead according to their original purpose but still living as a result of Revolutions.
white rabbitAug 28, 2003 at 1:18AM
I've been reading this thread (and it's awesome, by the way), and I recall that it's been mentioned that in the Revolutions trailer, there is a shot of a train that says "LOOP." I forget if this has been covered, but I just watched M1 and in the scene towards the end when Neo and Smith are fighting in the subway terminal, the train that runs over Smith says "LOOP" as well. What do you guys think of this?
AzusaAug 28, 2003 at 3:55AM
Alright, I’ll post this here (this is, after all, #1 on google :)). People here in kottke have done quite an achievement by analysing, under-analysing and (you guessed it) over-analysing Reloaded. Before proceeding to the film I’d like to write down few notes about my thoughts concerning this discussion in general (someone might find this offensive, hope not).
I think it was spoon-boy who first noted (in the previous thread) how critics like whoever-it-was because he looks like…well, a critic. Now, there’s a flipside to that coin. Take a moment and look at the non-matrix (or at least not “directly matrix”) theme that pops up once in a while (not for some time now, albeit IQ tests have been mentioned…): the romantication of people analysing Reloaded. It is as if these people were some sort of vanguard of truly intellectual people. In the general context of Star Trek’s and Star Wars (now at least someones going to get pissed: I’m correlating those two with each other) this propably is true, but to extend this into any the field of any actual work for the benefit of all (such as that done by, say, organisers of people’s movements for peace and justice for all) is just plain ridiculous. Maybe anyone hasn’t even done this, but the tone used implies that someone might think so. Reloaded is an amazingly detailed and well thought-out film, but analysing it is by no means an achievement in it self – only by using those experiences and wisdom gained through this process to change the world (so to speak) for the benefit of all can we claim that the process of analysing the movie has had some significant meaning. But Reloaded has great premises of transcending to a piece of art that not only affects individual persons emotionally and rationally (these two are not opposed and I should mention that this too is an achievement that few movies, yet alone sci-fi blockbusters, make) but also helps those people to recognise their value and dignity as human beings and help them to come together and find strength to oppose the systems that have constrained them from finding that strength and unity. Hmm…. Now, I think, would be appropriate time to move to the movie itself. Just keep the previous in mind, huh?
Reloaded has fascinated me in many ways, but one that I find most powerful is said by W’ brothers themselves in some press-release (relating to M1). It states that the bros like the way myths reflect the real world. The Trilogy is a modern myth and I think it reflects the real world in more ways than one. Someone (siddharta had some part in it, relating to spoon-boys higher-state…) already mentioned consumerism and that was just about there. It is hard for anyone to be ignorant about the fact that world is filled with immense injustices, with extreme poverty and with extreme differences in wealth – The US has about 3 percent of the world’s population yet does nearly half the world’s consuming. Within the US, about 2 percent of the popualtion own 60 percent of the wealth. Other developed countires are more or less the same. Thus, anyone reasonable enough doesn’t want this to be so. The problem is the method and the price: how to change this, and at what price? And here comes the choice, although I my self am cynical and claim that for many there never is a choice. Anyway, the choice is (in a banal and most irrelevant level; true life ahs subtleties beyond this): are you are ready to go deeper into the rabbit hole and start to actively find means to create more equity and solidarity, or do you stay stagnant, convinced by your present situation so that changing it would imbue costs to your life-style in one way or another. Matrix gives a intriguing allegoy of this by the Matrix (i.e. the different systems of control, advertisement, pressurising of labour unions, passivisation through tv and computers (knock, knock) to give a few examples) and by the Zionites, who reject the system and hope to build a better world where people could be free from such systems of control. As a sidenote, have you noticed what the architect’s screens show when he says “ Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature.? The “varying grotesqueries of our nature” are displayed: a terrorist, scenes from Cambodea, from Africa (the latter relating to famine, the former to Khmer Rouge), and also scenes of several world leaders that have given orders condemnable by the UN or the Nurnberg trials: Hitler, G.Bush and G.W.Bush, Ariel Sharon (prime minister of Israel) and Stalin. This gives yet another sign that the W’ bros are really smart people (though dialogue such as “You are handy!” almost convince me other way around :)), not just two people who “like sci-fi and kung-fu”.
I wanted to point that out for it hasn’t been properly discussed at all (why?) nearly anywhere. As for other points I think that others have made them well before me. Yes, I believe that Zion is real, really real. Yes, I think Oracle is the mother…well, I’m not sure, it could be persephone too… Neo is the One, but so is Smith, and as Smith can affect people in Zion, so can Neo affect machines in Zion.
It only makes sense because you never see 101 outside the Matrix.
What if the W's are saying that these strange cosmic coincidences are the only way for the people inside to tell they are inside? (by Ghost)
Exactly. And the fight scenes in Matrix seem over-the-top and the characters are like super heroes. That is all unreal, and all those references are perhaps the finest sign of it. Good thinking!
Read the above thread. I wrote my theory that the code is from a different version of the matrix. (by Ghost)
Seems likely… though as RUUYR said: ” Even my answers don't convince me...”
Spoon-boy: ” A cookie, in techno-speak, is a software component that a web server will attach to your browser for behaviour tracking and future identification. This information (on large web applications) would typically be stored in the (Oracle) dbase. ”
And Oracle gave Keanu a cookie… That is a clever one.
At this point I confess: I didn’t read the complete thread (the same with the previous one), only about 75% of it. Hit me.
The phone-booth being the end of the revolutions:
First of all: when trinity hacks the power plant, doesn’t the computer say it’s 2003? That’s just vague memory, based on nothing. Second: M1 was great, but I always disliked the ending. It was cheesy, with RATM and all. Hope I won’t have to do it (grieving) all over again with the end of the revolutions.
Good looking summaries, Tazmaster.
All we can do is solve as many of them as we can. (by Spoon-boy)
Yes, but in what order? I think that is the profound question.
But I have to wonder. If I take the world of the Matrix seriously, (I undoubtedly do) then I start to think: would a Supreme Being somewhere allow all of humanity to be enslaved? (by Ghost)
I’m an agnostic, but I think it is clear that Supreme Being allows such bad things. And by ”bad” I don’t mean murders or such (though they too are horrible), I mean the constant destruction of our planet and the enslavement (in one way or another) of nearly all humans. And that is the reality.
Thanks to Bell about the bit where Neo ”has some explaining to do”… And to the guy who in the original thread gave the vivid account of Matrix discussions being a little over-the-top:
”What I don’t get is how we see neo wiped his arse in the first film with his right hand. We see in the matrix reloaded that in a shot of a mirror, Neo is again wiping his arse with his right hand, but this is a mirror shot… it should be reversed and he should in fact be seen to be wiping his arse with the left hand! Also, in Revolutions in the ship explosion the flame space-time modelling seems to be acting in accordance with Bernoulli’s equation yet the flame frequency is blue shifted whilst in the matrix it seems to obey all physical laws except at the quantum level. Please someone comment on this soul destroying knowledge to make me feel better”
There. All the best to everyone – Matrix is quite a film. (and the end of my post is quite a collection of random thoughts)
beza1e1Aug 28, 2003 at 5:14AM
Back again ;)
The spoon Neo gets in m2 is dulled, old and used. The m1 spoon is not, perhaps this indicates "now there is a spoon"? If it is MwM, i think, we will see the spoon again, and Neo will bend it in the "real world" aka the outer Matrix.
The Ws always like to point out what man can reach, so i think a god supervising Neo is not an alternative. The point, that it plays out so nice and well thought, may as well be due to the fact, that it is a movie?! Perhaps there is no god or machine above Zion, but two script writers ...
bellAug 28, 2003 at 6:39AM
ghost says: do you think they are biological clones?
interesting point is that all non central charctors in m1 are either twins or triplets etc...remember these are supposed to be humans hooked up to the matrix (and if zion is real) are we to assume that most of those in the pods are twins etc...in the matrix one would assume that when trying to create a mass populus(if zion was not real)...at some point the creater (architect?) would run out of origanal material and start to use copies(human form)...it begs the question is anyone real in the matrix at all...(though it could be argued that if zion was real the same genetics were used over and over again, and thats why there are so many triplets and twins etc...though ultimately this would not last long term due to genetic degredation. and surely the machines would use alternatives if zion was real...
stillinthebigM thanks for answering my question's, though in a sense they were rhetorical...nevertheless it god to know some one see's the film as i do...as your opinions matched mine exactly, cheers...
bellAug 28, 2003 at 7:04AM
my reading of the architects screens and neo is that the screens are pre-empting neo...they are projecting possible reactions that neo version6 may make in responce to the carefull and deliberate diologe of the architect. when neo6's reaction matches any of the reactions on the screens the camera pans into that screen and that screen/neo becomes actuality. these possible neo responce's would be based on the previous 5 anomoly responces. Note when a new responce is made by neo6 the architect acknowledes this and we do not see the camera panning into any of the screens, as none of the previous anomoly's responded in that manner to the architect's speech therefore the matrix/architect screens do not have a record of that responce.
bellAug 28, 2003 at 7:20AM
azusa...great post...i myself recognise much of what you said...i have a degree in sociology/psychology/english...i post here not necceraliy expecting to find the solution to the world problems, and the i am aware of the simularcrum we live in...our society is a copy of nothing...it is fake and disposable, corporate giants rule, the people's vote counts for nothing, though people dont seem to care anyway, as long as they have there car house 2 holidays a year, the war in iraq was not on there dorrstep so why should they bother, to some people there is no difference between watching cnn and hollywood's latest blockbuster (pearl harbour etc)...i derive little meaning from our society, the now so to speak, i look to the past, great literiture, philosophy, history as a means of understanding who i am and where me may end up...i debate these things constantly with friends and piers...though my main point is i post on this thread for pleasure, and to share idea's, it is great to touch on real issues that are of the utmost importance, though i do a lot of that in my everyday life...this forum is relaxation time
AzusaAug 28, 2003 at 8:13AM
bell says well. without constant internet connection i am unable to post a lot here (and even if i had, i might not). but i can download the discussion on diskette and read it at home...for relaxation, exactly, though so called "real" thoughts occur to me once in a while when reading these posts. decided to collect them to that post over there. i must think a little about your notes concerning our society being without meaning... to connect it with the matrix we might talk about purpose, huh? what are we without it? and if the purpose is the well-being of the elite minority and not the well-being of all, then is it a purpose worth of...well, anything really. your thoughts about literature and culture in general are good, it doesn't take a genius to see that the so called "capitalistic society" has degraded culture greatly. but there are good things too. more of that later.
bellAug 28, 2003 at 8:58AM
i may be completely blind, stupid or something...don't answer :)
but ive only just noticed that in m1 the opening scene with trin, door with 303...is the same room as the room at the end of m1 where neo gets shot by smith...its the same b and b, hotel whatever... a good way of bookmarking the film...and thats why smith know's exactly where neo is heading and beats him to the phone (exit!)...
open your eyes!
bellAug 28, 2003 at 9:19AM
just a notion, if neo chose the other door and his code was assimilated by the matrix, would that also mean the smith(virul code?) also would have been assimilated by the matrix, and in turn taken over the matrix instantly...i am assuming here that smith was never a factor in the previous 5 iterations...maybe that is the reason in part that the architect did not want neo to choose the door the previous 5 did, because of smith and his apparent link to neo...alpha/omega...ying/yang...double etc...
any opinions?
bellAug 28, 2003 at 9:43AM
leading on from my last post, who was bane actually going to kill/attack...was it neo, or was it trinity? (the reason i ask this is, does smith know of the 2 choices/doors that neo will be presented with! smith is always one step ahead of neo...because smith has been enlightened to the eventual outcome of reloaded before neo.
e.g.
Smith: "You look suprised to see me, AGAIN, Mr. Anderson. But that's the difference between us--I've been expecting you."
Neo: "What do you want Smith?"
Smith: "You haven't figured that out? Still using all the muscles except the one that matters. I want exactly what you want--I want everything."
the everything smith wants is to utterly control the matrix, if neo picks the door that his five predossessors chose, maybe smith would have got everything!
bellAug 28, 2003 at 9:45AM
...if bane had killed trinity, which door would neo have taken? (rhetorical question)
Brisvegas1Aug 28, 2003 at 10:48AM
Just a thought - in some ways the matrix is not a completely virtual geaography - it cant be shifted around completely at random - at a whim.
The presence of hardlines and the need for the zionists ships to reach broadcast level is a reflection of this.
In other words - the geography of the matrix is mapped onto a physical geography relating to data transmission and processing power.
This thought is kindo of disconnected from other speculation at the moment... but I'm sure that it might provide some insights.
for example - the majority of the world of the matrix seems to occur within a single sprawling metropolis - we hear and see nothing of other cities etc. I don't recall seeing any planes or airports in the movies.
Might this represent the fact that to a certain extent the simulation is bounded - thta it represents all the humans who now reside at the location of zero one.
And what of the Mergovignian - when neo is transported to his mansion it is the first time that you are realy out of the city - and suprise, suprise - there isn't anything like the density of humans there that there is in the city. In fact, there aren't any humans there at all - they are all programs - vampires and werewolves.
So the fact that there is only the one city - does this mean that the machines have not spread across the globe - or if they have this group of machines has no contact with the others? Or in other words - does the representation of the matrx as a single metropolis represent the actual distribution of humans in the world.
Hmmm....
ghostAug 28, 2003 at 11:19AM
I like the idea that the Tech lies to Neo to get him to choose the door that does not reload the Matrix BECAUSE if he does then Smith will infect the reload. That's gold. The Squids (on command of the Tech) blow the ship up so that Trin will have to enter. Then once she is inside the Tech uses this info to convince Neo to take that door. But doesn’t that sacrifice the entire human pop in the process?
What would the door's prize be in previous cycles?
And Behind Door #1......
beza1e1 - MatrixWikiAug 28, 2003 at 11:21AM
Neo travels 500km back to the city, why should they simulate such an area, if there are no people? Wouldn't Neo notice this?
Why does Smith fight against Neo, if Neo would bring him the control over the Matrix? What does Smith want in their second meeting? The Keymaker, the key or Neo? What whould Smith do with the key? face the Architect? What for?
I think i still wants to assimilate Neo to destroy him, because that was is purpose from the beginning (from m1) it is his whole purpose to destroy the One. This raises the question, why he fights Neo 1on1 in Revolutions ...
bellAug 28, 2003 at 11:51AM
bezale1 says: Why does Smith fight against Neo, if Neo would bring him the control over the Matrix?
oracle states: only the one can open the door
why only the one? because of his programming or the codes he carries?
if smith took over neo , surely he would then posses that what neo has and therefore be able to assume the role of the one, and therefore go to the source himself and take over the matrix!!!
bellAug 28, 2003 at 11:58AM
ghost says:What would the door's prize be in previous cycles?
perhaps in the previous iterations there were 2 choices...
1). go through the left door reset matrix
2). go through the right door everyone dies
with choices like that no wonder the previous five anomaly's chose the left door...
but in this iteration
1). go through the left door reset matrix
2). go through the right door trinity dies, oh and so does everyone else
but this time neo/one is blinded by emotion/love saves trinity believing he can still save everyone else because there is x amout of hrs left...
would neo be aware of the fact that if he chose the right door he may well never see trinity again?
bellAug 28, 2003 at 11:59AM
would neo be aware of the fact that if he chose the left door he may well never see trinity again?
meant left door refering last post...
stillinthebigMAug 28, 2003 at 12:05PM
Azuza, Bell
Excellent posts! I was hoping to eventually get to the point of why are we here discussing these films. Is it just to while away our time or is some learning and maybe impetus to do something about the real matrix we live in. "real matrix" sounds like an oxymoron to me.
I do believe the Wbros wanted us to do more than just enjoy the film they obviously wanted to thinking to come out of it. The doing part would be up to the individual. Gurdjieff (anyone read his 4th way stuff?) speaks of our world being in a similar state of affairs as the matrix. He called it the being under the general law. Instead of programs and agents, individuals are thwarted by the many temporary 'I's or selves that make up their personalities. They are not complete because at any moment one 'I' may be incharge and the next another 'I' which makes choices contradictory to the previous one. With so many allies and foes within ourselves influencing our thoughts, choices and actions they don't really allow us to DO anything. Hence he says unless a man's real 'I' (true self, soul or whatever you may call it) is in control. Man is really just a machine reacting to the forces exerted on it bymultitudes of temporary 'I's belonging to self and others as well as those who have a permament I in control. As such our main job here and now is to intergrate our centers and grow a permament I. The centers are emotional, intellectual, moving or instinctual, with the first two considered part of higher centers in man and each center having a positive and negative half. This intergration of the centers is done via the process of learning, self-remembering and so on. Only then can we really DO things to effect change, that is if we realize we are responsible. The miraculous or even supernatural is actually a natural part of becoming a complete man.
So I agree that we should be looking at what the Wbros were saying about our world today and our role in allowing it to remain the way it is. It's our naviete, our cynicism, our greed, desire for love, safety and others contributs to it. What is often forgotten in our struggles for safety and security is that if only a few elites are safe, then no one is really safe and secure.
Another aspect I saw these movies was Neo bringing his centers into a more balanced existence. Reloaded focused on Neo's emotional center yet his intellectual center was involved despite what agent smith says about using all the muscles but the right one. As the more balanced he becomes the more influence and changes he can exert on the matrix (revolutions)
I enjoy the discussions here but I still have to wonder what is the purpose of this forum? Is it just to discuss a movie? All the issues raised again lead back to what is the matrix? Are we sure just what it is and if so what do we once we know? Can we do? Is it a well done movie but just a movie? Is a cigar just a cigar and a discussion just a discussion and there is no point?
When does it cease as discussions and instead becomes a sort of network of ideas, in turn a sort of neural network even......
bellAug 28, 2003 at 12:19PM
stillinthebigM says: 'I's or selves that make up their personalities. They are not complete because at any moment one 'I' may be incharge and the next another 'I' which makes choices contradictory to the previous one.
i agree, there are many contradictions in every day life that i make, though notably i am aware of them. i think it is down to the fact i can not help be corrupted on some levels by the society and people i interact with...i in turn assume different roles for different people and different situations, though these a masks or temporay 'I' as you accuratly stated. it would seem i can only realy be my true self (more core being so to speak, without distraction and influence) through meditation etc...perhaps i should live in a tibetan monestary for a few years:)
i am free but within invisiblbe boundaries
i dont remember signing any social contract, and that is what realy p****s me off:)
bellAug 28, 2003 at 12:50PM
stillinthebigM:I enjoy the discussions here but I still have to wonder what is the purpose of this forum? Is it just to discuss a movie?
very good question!
fusion of idea's and opinions, all born from different exsperiance's from different individuals...i admit as i have done before that this forum is not going to change my life, though it may help develope theories and ideas i have!...though notably i see the disadvantages in virtual chat/discussion via the net...as the net is partly responsible for breakdown in communication in our society, technology alienates us, marginalises us and even catergorizes...though i am lucky that i have broad and varied group of friend's and colleagues...i suppose it is good to communicate with like minded individuals who are not blinded like so many by consumerism/capitalism gone mad!
and now we move into the post-post modern era, it is about time that this matrix like world shattered...though admittedly you tear it all down and all you have is the desert of the real...as long as i dont adopt cypher's philosophy :) though most anti establishment types seem to give in at some stage :)
stillinthebigMAug 28, 2003 at 1:16PM
through meditation etc...perhaps i should live in a tibetan monestary for a few years:)
If you notice Neo is not and isolated monk, especially not while in the matrix. His ongoing discovery and integration of his core is done because of the distractions. He does 'normal' things like fall in love, eating, developing friendships, teamwork, having enemies etc. It happens while functioning in the matrix. At the same time some not so normal for the matrix abilities result. Why? because the matrix is just that- a matrix-not real but real enough that you can still die in it and thus die in real life.
Not that I'm endorsing any particular philosophy since there are concepts from so many included in the matrix films, it is plain that one need not become a monk do 'know thyself'. In Gurdjieff's talks about 'ordinary' man being a machine, he says there are various ways to get beyond being just a machine. They are:
Way of the Fakir, involving effort in the body (cypher maybe?)
Way of the Monk, involving devotion and concentration of feeling (which you mentioned and I think may be the problem with Morpheus)
Way of the Yogi, involving largely mental attention. (zen boy )
Gurdjieff proposes a fourth way. A way that uses the ordinary functions and distractions of everyday life in making an effort to develop all three: body(action or moving) feeling(emotions) and mind(intellect). This is harmonious development. It's possible that one can go through the process only to consciously choose to continue being a machine, though I wouldn't understand that. The point is to be able to consciously choose rather than being a reaction machine. It's not about a social contract bell. It's more a natural responsibilty assumed by an individual as they develop thier higher centers. The first responsibility is to the core self in a sense. I think if each person assumes responsibility for the core self then society will develop along more equitable lines. What we find in ordinary life however, is most people prefer to pass the buck in self responsibility or just don't have the ability because they choose not to see the matrix or develop the self.
Anyway, development requires abilities inherent in man combined with those inherent in machines. I think it requires recognizing our machine like behaviors first. Smith knows he is a machine, he is trying to discover his humanity within this. For Neo it's more difficult to develop because he assumes he is human not realizing how he behaves machinelike. This is why I see symbiosis as the outcome of revolutions.
I think a little of the 3 ways as one goes along but some are more obvious than others. As on continues on the path the ablities invloved in all three get stronger and stronger to form a solid 4th way. In Neo's case we notice in M1 how he learns to control some of his physical abilities in the matrix via a download of a fighting program(machine function). He is induced to fight Morpheus-action or instinctive center. Was it Tank that called him a machine? The machine like abilities were there it just wasn't manifested. His humanity had to be developed vis a vis love, the emotional center seen in Reloaded.
Does Neo accomplish the full fourth way transformation? I won't know until the end of revolutions.
GhostAug 28, 2003 at 1:17PM
If you agree with the "I" theory - then I agree Bell that the only way to do that would indeed be to remove everything from ones life. That is a path that is recommended by many. Jesus, Buddha, Carlos Castineta and Don Juan, and so on.
But I see our Matrix not created by external forces and internal. We are in our own individual matrix's because of the false (sense) of reality that we shield our eyes with. Like StillinthebigM said, we watch the war in Iraq as if it was a movie. That's because we were programmed to program ourselves to mentally shield our sight from things that oppose our pseudo-realities. So in doing this we stay locked in this pseudo-reality (matrix) and all of our perceptions of the real world are there-by altered. So to free ones mind would be to see the world without the vial that we have pulled over our eyes.
I believe that any form of self-expression or free flow of ideas to or from a person is one way to do this. So watching a creative movie (the matrix) or writing theories - philosophizing (this thread) and using self expression threw creative thought and discussion would be a simple way of freeing part of ones mind. And that in turn can lead to bigger and better freedom.
Spoon BoyAug 28, 2003 at 3:51PM
Asusa says:
Reloaded is an amazingly detailed and well thought-out film, but analysing it is by no means an achievement in it self
The same can be said of philosophy and religion. i.e. "Life is an amazingly detailed and complicated subject, but analyzing it gets you nowhere." :)
And I honestly can't argue with that.
bell says:
perhaps in the previous iterations there were 2 choices...
1). go through the left door reset matrix
2). go through the right door everyone dies
Note that those were the two choices presented by the Architect. What people seem to be overlooking is the possibility that Neo and Z10N will (and have) overcome the conditions presented in Choice #2.
I believe the "Rocky/KarateKid/BreakingAway/BlackStallion/etc." ending to this will be that the Matrix will be Reloaded by Neo on his own terms, without intentionally killing Z10N.
That's what the final struggle will be about. Reloading the Matrix on his own. Fuck what the Architect says.
The Architect stated that Door 1 led to a reload @ the cost of the Z10N population (minus 23 salvaged pod bodies), and that Door 2 led to a total destruction of Z10N.
Neo is about to prove him wrong. That's where we are right now. Game seven of the World Series, bottom of the ninth inning, down by 3, two outs, bases loaded, full count, and you're the underdog.
Doesn't get better than that.
stillinthebigMAug 28, 2003 at 5:44PM
If you agree with the "I" theory - then I agree Bell that the only way to do that would indeed be to remove everything from ones life. That is a path that is recommended by many. Jesus, Buddha, Carlos Castineta and Don Juan, and so on.
....hmm my reading of castaneda didn't give me the idea that removing everything from one's life is necessary. The impression I got from reading the books was that one should remove one's attachment to things. Maybe it's just semantics but in my view it's equivalent to being in the world but not of it, not chasing worldly things and multiple other cliches etc etc. It was not that one must be cloisted in a monastary or not participate in the world. Though I must say that being monklike is one method of not being attached to things but then you can get attached to being a monk. ;-)
The premise of the 'I' theories is that we are in the matrix for a reason and the reason isn't to just withdraw from. Rather its to learn and understand fully what it is. Then you can make a truly conscious choice to remove yourself from it or remain within if you wish. So the question again is what is the matrix?
If we accept that it exist or the movie was pointing to the state of our existence in post modern society, then clearly the experiences of the characters show that becoming a monk wasn't the way to go either. In my view it's like isolating yourself from the lessons of self discovery being in the matrix affords. It is the very reason jesus supposedly came down to dwell amongst men. Yes he fasted and prayed for periods of time but not always. Buddah also went alone to meditate and contemplate but he traveled amongst people and interacted with others too. It takes some interaction with others who are 'of the world' to understand why they were so attached to being of the world. Here we can get into some new age babble which I am not really into.
I do have to agree with you though spoon boy. Anything can be analyzed. What one does or doesn't do with the analysis is what counts in the end. This discussion may be just a session of mental masturbation or it may propel one to learn and discover how they create and or contribute to the existence of their own little matrices. Maybe I'm taking this too seriously. I think it's a nice metaphor for the state of our 'reality' but it's still just a movie. The moment of every life changing choice is the bottom of the 9th of game 7 in the world series.
Neo: Choice. The problem is choice
One can make a free will choice. If one isn't aware one can also make a choice that appears to be a free will but isn't. If you remember from Castaneda, Don Juan said that the predator gave us it's mind, so our fears of hunger, of being discovered, is really the predator's fear. It prevents us from knowing oneself. I would even call the predator the collective of Gurdjieff's 'I's, or Jesus's idea of demons being legion but that again its going into other issues that really isn't about the movie. So I'm still asking what is the matrix and when one is in and of the matrix, can one's choice really be free will or is it manipulated choice? There is something to the Merovingian's speech even if he was bent on manipulation.
NumerologyFanAug 28, 2003 at 11:36PM
So, sorry for the late of the opinion here, but i :$ just see the Rev Trailer.
some questions...
01:02 Link's wife seems in the Resistance. Maybe her so proclamed "important role" is about "leading" the dying Last Line of Zion Resistance.
01:06 Is Neo blind and guiding Trinity because he "can feel them now"??
00:21 Persephone and later Merovincian are in red, so by Ws' simbology they know somthing else, am I right? Maybe still Merov is an older One who craved for ambition ("He was like you") .
00:37 In the Disco, at the screen's left (besides Morpheus) the is a woman-in-red. Look out for it the W's saying "it" is a lie, i.e. the scene is "fake" or maybe the new trio Mor, Trin and Seraph (in Neo's absence) are being tricked by the Matrix...
After seeing RevTrailer and in my 7th One search, I got a crazy going-nutting-major-pain-in-the-ass idea:
What if Smith is the 7th??? You see He is who beats and got a surrealistic power upon Neo, beyond the very suggesting laughter he does in 00:18 (that sees to me an badguy-who-finds-a-way-to-kill-goodboy laughter OR badboy-who-finds-out-he-has-the-power laughter) , and remember "Our conection".
Remember my last post about Kid 7th One theory? Forget it, I change it to Smith 7th One! and it remains the same in some points: Neo set Smith free, Smith gets into Bane and Zion, Smith someway triggers EMP (Bane's ship), he wakes up ( 00:21) when all the others are plugged, maybe kill somebody, reenters Matrix, maybe meets Oracle and knows DA WHAT IDEA, he laughs and goes kicking some-Ones-asses, and some other thing happens...
beza1e1Aug 29, 2003 at 4:28AM
Sry NumerologyFan, but i don't think there will be any 7th One. I will have to see the trailer again, to check those things you mentioned ...
As our discussion become more philosophical:
- What is freedom? -
My knowledge about philosphy is school-only, so very basic. What means freedom in the Matrix and what means freedom for you?
my thoughts:
Freedom basically means you can do what you want. So there are several possibilities, how to achieve that.
1. Don't want anything. Askese etc leads to a point where you should become totally independent from your needs. Buddism follows this path, i'd say?
2. Become powerful enough to get everything. Capitalism tells this, but today it seems no good way anymore.
3. Suit your needs to your circumstances. Like 1. but not that extreme. If you convice yourself, that you only want, what you already have. You are free as well
4. Believe in a free future. Christianity partly tells this. After your death, you will be free, but currently you are bound to the world.
Back to the Matrix. If you are free, when you can get everything you want, the people in the Matrix could be free without being freed. They don't want to learn about the reality, because they don't even think of it. So they don't want it. So it isn't the Matrix, which doesn't let the people become free.
Another definition of freedom could be "without external control", but this is not possible, because you have to obey physical laws. Neo could be free in the Matrix, but not in Zion?!
On the other hand
Morpheus (m1): What is the Matrix? Control.
GhostAug 29, 2003 at 11:21AM
Hey here's a good question for ya:
Before you saw the first movie ( or even during the first part of the movie the first time you saw it ) what did you think the Matrix was? :)
Spoon BoyAug 29, 2003 at 12:55PM
Ghost says:
Hey here's a good question for ya:
Before you saw the first movie ( or even during the first part of the movie the first time you saw it ) what did you think the Matrix was? :)
A computer game of some sort. Something tells me that's not too far off. :)
GhostAug 29, 2003 at 2:22PM
This is the breaking news on the official webpage.
August 21st, 2003----------------------------
A black cat has just passed our front page.
August 20th, 2003----------------------------
Today sees the official launch of the International trailer for THE MATRIX REVOLUTIONS.
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/It has begun.
hex_route/arcade/circa1989/high scores will be recorded and rewarded
TheMatrix.com
I don't know what that means do you? But I sure would like to be rewarded.
August 19th, 2003----------------------------
RLRT htpd tscdrb gntst
TheMatrix.com
I dont know what that means either. Or the bit about the black cat.
Old_GobboAug 30, 2003 at 9:29AM
The black cat means something in the website (on the front page) has changed significantly.
In m1 the black cat crossed the gang's path, and then again, Neo noticed this deja vu and they all realized that the matrix had been changed (the exits were now all walls)
ctm3Aug 30, 2003 at 11:36PM
oops! foxnews was doin a feature on top movies of the year and they put a pic for revolutions instead of reloaded. Another shot of Neo punching smith I haven't seen yet.
http://www.foxnews.com/images/100312/
0_23_matrix_reloaded.jpg
ctm3Aug 30, 2003 at 11:54PM
Very cool new trailer. Shows a few things we haven't seen. Trinity pointing gun at Mero's head, the oracle's guardian pointing gun at what looks to be the long hair "bum" everyone talks about, Neo embracing Trin in a white room with Mobius? written on the wall, and Neo waking up from the Coma it looks like in his Neo self "somewhere inbetween".
SajjmanAug 31, 2003 at 5:30PM
I seriously thing the merovigians dialouge with neo in m2 deserves a deeper analyze ! For real people , he says some deep shit there about cause and effect and the first time u saw the movie in the cinema (nearly suicidal after all the plots and shit) u didnt really graps all he said, anyone with enough ambition to write the whole dialouge here so we can study it?
btw who talked shit about RATM ? EHUM ? One of the best bands ever and with a song called "WAKE UP" , didnt that suit the end?
beza1e1 - MatrixWikiSep 01, 2003 at 2:41AM
The merovingian conversation or a full transcript?
I don't think its that deep, it is a difficult language, but the philosophy is rather simple. Everything has a cause and everything triggers an effect, that is how the world goes round. voila.
bellSep 01, 2003 at 8:36AM
i said:...perhaps i should live in a tibetan monestary for a few years:)
what i said above was an extreme example (notice smily face at end of sentence). though the idea has occured to me countless times as a means of recharging and taking of the shackles so to speak. then return to this society with perhaps a greater focus and understanding. take a step outside this life/society...attain a different perspective.
bellSep 01, 2003 at 8:48AM
Ghost says:
Hey here's a good question for ya:
Before you saw the first movie ( or even during the first part of the movie the first time you saw it ) what did you think the Matrix was? :)
bizzarely at the time of m1 release i did'nt know anything about it...i saw a couple of clips bit it did'nt register (circa batman and robin...exspectations on could genre movies very low at time)
i only went to see it as a friend dragged me...my first impression was...what a great fusion of everything realy...i intialy thought that the w's had borrowed to much fro other sources lewis carol etc...only because i didnt get it first time that the sources lewis carol etc is what makes up the matrix and our reality. but to tell you the truth i took the film at face value kinda... and expected m2 and m3 to be about neo free people and blowing up machines etc...as to be honest that is all m1 suggested to the viewer at the time...im very happy that i was wrong!
bellSep 01, 2003 at 9:02AM
as for the merovingian scene on cause and effect...
the cake/orgasm analogy more or less explains cause and effect...merv is eluding to neo and various stimulei that has been used to mould neo into what he has become...ergo...neo has died, neo is the one, neo is being led to the source etc...
bellSep 01, 2003 at 9:33AM
smith
You are beaten. It is useless
to resist. Don't let yourself
be destroyed as Oracle did.
smith
There is no escape. Don't make
me destroy you. You do not yet
realize your importance. You
have only begun to discover your
power. Join me and I will complete
your training. With our combined
strength, we can end this destructive
conflict and bring order to the
matrix.
neo
I'll never join you!
smith
If you only knew the power of the
dark side. The Oracle never told
you what happened to your father.
neo
He told me enough! It was you
who killed him.
smith
No. I am your father.
Shocked, neo looks at smith in utter disbelief.
neo
No. No. That's not true!
That's impossible!
smith
Search your feelings. You know
it to be true.
neo
No! No! No!
smith
neo. You can destroy the Architect.
He has foreseen this. It is your
destiny. Join me, and together
we can rule the Matrix as Alpha
and Omega. Come with me. It is the
only way.
beza1e1 - MatrixWikiSep 01, 2003 at 9:59AM
lol
Matrix: Return of the One
but it is amazing how easy it is to translate the characters.
Morpheus - Han or Yoda
Link - Chewy
Trin - Leia
Oracle - Obi Wan
Squiddies, agents - Troopers
Neb - Falcon
Merv - Jabba the Hut
Perse - another Leia? Amidala!
Keymaker - Anakins mother
bellSep 01, 2003 at 10:09AM
its the universal, hero/quest theme...as you have pointed out the elements are the same in all quest movies/literiture...
neo - luke - frodo/aragorn - arthur
smith - vader - sauron - mordred
morpheous - yoda - gandalf - merlin
matrix - force - the ring - excalibur/holy grail
re - occuring themes
bellSep 01, 2003 at 10:33AM
someone mentioned that they saw mobius written on wall in rev trailer, that is very interesting...alexander mobios was a 19th century mathematician, who came up with the theory of time loops and paradox's. without going into too much detail as this stuff takes a long time to explain...think back to the future trilogy... in the matrix trilogy ive suspected this and if mobios is indeed written on the wall somewhere, then pre determinism is the key...it begs the question: is the matrix in some kind of time loop (some are aware of it some are not, oracle/architect aware -- neo beginning to be aware)
oracle to neo: you see without time?
or if it is not a time loop, how close are the previous iterations to the 6th...in design...cause and effect etc...i would say closer than i first thought!
Ken WaisSep 01, 2003 at 10:44AM
The 1st one was a travesty of the AI field with good spec effs for 1999.
The second one tries to philosophize amateurishly. The spec effs are better. Unless you're one of the initiated. Then you see right them
I stumbled on your many sites by accident. I was looking for a quick calc of the sum of palindromic number sequences that lie btwn the numbers from 00000000 to 99999999. It's the most unusual one I discovered by chance. But, very addictive.
Ken WaisSep 01, 2003 at 10:48AM
The 1st one was a travesty of the AI field with good spec effs for 1999.
The second one tries to philosophize amateurishly. The spec effs are better. Unless you're one of the initiated. Then you see right thru them
I stumbled on your many sites by accident. I was looking for a quick calc of the sum of palindromic number sequences that lie between the numbers from 00000000 to 99999999. It's the most unusual one I've discovered by chance. But, very addictive.
bellSep 01, 2003 at 11:02AM
ken wais says: I stumbled on your many sites by accident. I was looking for a quick calc of the sum of palindromic number sequences that lie between the numbers from 00000000 to 99999999. It's the most unusual one I've discovered by chance. But, very addictive.
im no mathematician sorry, though welcome anyhow!
bellSep 01, 2003 at 11:40AM
the more i think about the more obvious it is that every one in the matrix is on a repeating mobius strip of time (loop!)...has neo broken the loop when he chose the right door????? ?
bake on :)
bellSep 01, 2003 at 12:07PM
i have been reading up on Einstiens Fifth Dimensional theory...as it seems to me that the matrix/zion could exist outside regular time due to either temporal accellorating or temporal stasis..more likely to be temporal stasis, that would explain the nature/laws within matrix...neo seemingly defying gravity...neo creates a stronger temporal stasis field around himself when stopping bullets etc...
any quantum physist's out there!
bellSep 01, 2003 at 12:18PM
i know that a temporal stasis field would crush a human being if he/she tried to move within the the temporal stasis field - gravity would see to that without some kind of protective cocoon... but the avators within the matrix construct would be different would'nt they?
beza1e1Sep 01, 2003 at 2:56PM
time loops etcetera would be a nice topic for the third part.
the W's are very interested in quantum physics, they said.
But i don't think they will show the iterations as loops in time. Loops of course but not in real time. It would be a very twist in the universe. The audience is now familiar with the Matrix universe and you shouldn't throw away all their imaginations. You can change or widen it, but not reverse it.
A short googling brought me to a simple, nice explanation of the Mobius Time Loop.
How could we put this into Matrix?
One side of the strip is the iteration like the Architect tells us. Neo has choosen the other door, so he twisted the strip and now there is the Mobius Loop. We enter another timeline and everything is possible, but the Mobius Loop leads back to the twist point, were we will enter the first iteration again (no grandma, so the time traveler will travel back)
AzusaSep 02, 2003 at 3:34AM
Reloaded is an amazingly detailed and well thought-out film, but analysing it is by no means an achievement in it self – only by using those experiences and wisdom gained through this process to change the world (so to speak) for the benefit of all can we claim that the process of analysing the movie has had some significant meaning.
(by Azusa)
The same can be said of philosophy and religion. i.e. "Life is an amazingly detailed and complicated subject, but analyzing it gets you nowhere." :)
(by Spoon Boy)
Notice that I included in my own quote the context – not just the notion that analysing Matrix is not an achievement in itself. Analysing life doesn’t get you anywhere as far as I can see it, unless you apply that analysis to life itself and try to help others the best you can with that ”application”. Of course, analysing life can give you some satisfaction or other individual entertainment, but I don’t see that particularly relevant. Indeed, it may often be harmful as it distracts you from seeing the suffering of others and thus blocks the basic human emotions of solidarity and compassion towards them.
What one does or doesn't do with the analysis is what counts in the end…I think it's a nice metaphor for the state of our 'reality' but it's still just a movie.
(by stillinthebigM)
Exactly.
Neo is about to prove him wrong. That's where we are right now. Game seven of the World Series, bottom of the ninth inning, down by 3, two outs, bases loaded, full count, and you're the underdog.
(by Spoon Boy)
Yup. Hopefully Revolutions gives some surprises to this. And hopefully it has so much less combat then Matrix or, good God!, Reloaded. Film noir look of the trailers and the general emotions of melancholy and desperation expressed in them are promising, though I have a bad feeling that if mr. Reeves is made to act some complicated scenes, he may not handle them well – just look at the beginning of Reloaded where he discusses with Carrie-Anne; the acting on Reeves’ part is quite nothing. As a sidenote, try to imagine Robert De Niro, for example, as Neo. Would be hilarious.
To Ghost:
The Black cat? Hell, maybe they changed something (the front page has at least ”revolutions” on it, instead of ”reloaded”) The post at the official page on 8/19 is a code to be implanted on the ”hex” (or whatever) system of the homepage. After inserting it you can watch the Revolutions trailer. This became obsolete the next day when it was officially released.
And to Sajjman:
I honestly think that RATM isn’t very good, and it doesn’t work well as a music in “The Matrix”.
superrussSep 02, 2003 at 10:11AM
I just think its really cool how everyone with the last name "reeves" or close derivatives get to fly like superman in their movies...
lofty (Adam)Sep 02, 2003 at 1:39PM
I agree about the music and RATM as lacking a bit...
I love how almost every human sense in the Matrix is explored...
1. Taste - The cake orgasm, cipher's steak and wine, Persephone's lipstick
2. Touch - Neo going inside Trinity to remove bullet, Neo touching the wavy mirror, Persephone's kiss
3. Sight - Neo in code-viewing mode, bullet-time visuals, deja-vu black cats, bending spoons...
4. Smell - Cipher smelling wine, Agent Smith smelling the human reek
But where has sound, or aural experiences been played out?
Have we been shown how the sound of a symphony as it reaches your ears is just simply matrix code? Have we seen anyone experiencing a truly aural experience in the matrix?
I really hope they give a little time to "sound in the matrix" in the next flick. Instead of a stock cyber-punk musical soundscape, they could have incorporated more ethnic sounds and music... I was able to believe that all the other sensory experiences were just electrical impulses sent to the brain, but they haven't yet conviced me about sound. My only complaint from an awesome movie...
beza1e1Sep 02, 2003 at 1:56PM
5. Sound
Techno within the Matrix - Tribe style in Zion
Did you see, that scenes within the Matrix are all slightly green?
GhostSep 02, 2003 at 2:47PM
Neo is listening to ear phones in his apartment :)
Spoon BoySep 02, 2003 at 3:05PM
Have we seen anyone experiencing a truly aural experience in the matrix?
The first scene of M1.
TRINITY (V.O.): "Did you hear that?"
CYPHER (V.O.): "Hear what?
Virtually every scene after that contains characters in the Matrix reacting to sounds. There's a knock on Neo's door, he opens it. The phone rings, he picks it up. He yells "TRINITY! HELP!!!", and she does. And so on.
Spoon BoySep 02, 2003 at 3:25PM
bell says:
the more i think about the more obvious it is that every one in the matrix is on a repeating mobius strip of time (loop!)...has neo broken the loop when he chose the right door????? ?
Quite the opposite. He's actually preserving the loop by choosing Door 2 (on the right of the screen).
It's almost alarming how many folks are assuming that the previous Neos chose Door 1. Careful there. It can't work that way in the big picture. Everything we've seen (with the exception of the Architect's lecture) suggests that previous Neos, like Neo6, chose Door 2, and overcame the supposed consequences of doing so.
Forget about any perceived "intentions" that you think the Architect may have. Neo "chooses" Door 2 by design, and the Architect's instructions, as intimidating as they sound, are part of this design.
beza1e1Sep 02, 2003 at 4:00PM
Where did you learn this Spoon Boy?
Spoon BoySep 02, 2003 at 4:28PM
Didn't you get the memo? :)
These are just my observations, based on what strikes me as obvious. Nothing more, nothing less. Well, maybe more. Or less. I could be wrong. There's no doubt I'm right about that.
GhostSep 02, 2003 at 5:22PM
HA!! :)
He said the MEMO. More like the last 1509 posts. But still it remains mostly personal beliefs. I do agree that the Tech did not tell the complete truth causing Neo to make the choice he did. If you look at the choices he was givin, who would choose the other door anyway?
GhostSep 02, 2003 at 5:53PM
Here's some Matrix Graffiti. I'm sure it has some meaning:
1. ONEONE
2. "TAKEE"
3. TWOMPS
4. M.O.B.
There's alot more buring the Burley Brawl and if anyone could try and obtain it that would be great.
Spoon BoySep 02, 2003 at 7:08PM
Re: TWOMPS
Interesting; I never caught that. "Two MPs (pronounced 'Two Em-pees')". Hmm. MP is an acronym for many things, including "Major Program", "Maintenance Plan", and "Main Process". Take two of 'em and it almost sounds like you're talking about Neo and Smith. Dig it.
MOB
An acronym for Main Operating Base.
5. D-MAN is also on the wall during the brawl. D-MAN is the short name for a software component called Download Manager used in the Open Source world.
Also, it's been said before, but since it's brings us back to one of the arguably coolest elements of the films, it might as well be reiterated,
100 Smiths plus 1 Neo = 101
Re: TAKEE
Not sure. Anybody?
Amusingly notable is that there's a dude on the Net named Takee that has a data storage site. :)
Matt RoundSep 03, 2003 at 4:03AM
Or it's just "take E", a simple drugs reference..?
GhostSep 03, 2003 at 3:30PM
Beza1e1 this is the why I believe that Door #2 was the door Neo was supposed to choose.
Neo is being led the entire time to the Tech. That one way or the other is his GOAL. The machines are digging - the holes were not already there (so it's never happened before, they filled them in, or it's a fake Z10N). Now the Tech knows that and sets everything up to get Neo there with Trin in the Matrix (Three tasks, ship blows up, she the only option). Once in the Tech tells Neo this has happened before and it's going to happen again. He says no matter what door you choose everyone in Z10N will die and everyone in the Matrix as well. The only real choice is this:
1. Go to door #1 and you save a group of humans who will repopulate a fake Z10N and keep the Human Race Alive in a set up world.
2. Go to door #2 and according to the Tech the Human Race Will be Destroyed and there's no way to save Trinity anyway.
Does this not sit right with anyone else? I think this is why we are still here. The choices are not really logical.
Remember the scene form M1 where we are first introduced to the Tech's viewing screens? What was that scene about? It was about how they wanted Neo to cooperate but he wouldn't. The Tech was paying attention I wonder why...hmmmm... He was paying attention because it was a test to see if Neo would cooperate or rebel.
So when the Tech gave Neo the two options, can it be argued that the machines would even think for 101 seconds that Neo would even consider door #1? No of course not. He didn't listen to anyone ever, and always went against the grain why would it change now.
A more logical situation would be (If you help us she will live. Not if you help us she and everyone else will die. ) You have to admit the odds were stacked. If anyone thinks different I’d love to here your side.
So it makes you then ponder the "why" or the "effect" of that. To me the most obvious answer is that it is just another test, another system of control. But if it's a test then a test for what? Perhaps it was just because the Tech wanted to see if Neo would join the machines because they realized how strong he was? Any Ideas????
Well that's it for now, back to the drawling board. Oh.... Has anyone read the Art Of The Matrix book? I looked threw it and there was like 50 pages of scripts or somthing in the back. I'm going to try and look at it again to see if it sheds any light in a new direction but if anybody can beat me to it that would be cool too.
beza1e1 - MatrixWikiSep 04, 2003 at 2:27AM
Thanks for the explanation, but one thing bothers me.
Your theorie say the Architect is lying to Neo (at least about former Zions, as your no-hole-before statement says), so why should we trust that it happened before? No one else said something about iterations, only some very vague quotes.
Why should Zion be at the same place as its predecessors?
NumerologyFanSep 04, 2003 at 3:09AM
Hey guys, back to the philosophy: have you all read 1984 from Wells? It was one of the books the W's gave to all the crew a time (i dont remember, maybe two months) before the M1 filmation. It could bring some light...
... indeed, it follows some very close to the general plot, and it is a kind of scary political viewpoint. I did read that if MRev is following it, all the history is ciclyng loop, and in the end, Neo and all will fall and join the Matrix team, just brainwashing themselves(!).
This turns the films out from action genre... and get it on the horror.
http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/%7Esmf7/
175/booktoc.html
:-(
beza1e1 - MatrixWikiSep 04, 2003 at 9:21AM
The book has the perhaps-good boys as well. You never know, if there are really rebels or if the are simulated by the Big Brother.
I would accept such an end, as well, but it would Matrix pull from the mainstream. It would be like Space Odessy 2001 - either you love it or you hate it, especially the end. It will probably be the most important contribution the Ws do to the movie, so making it unique is not a bad idea. It isn't impossible that Neo joins the machines and reboots another cycle.
bellSep 04, 2003 at 10:20AM
spoonboy says:Neo "chooses" Door 2 by design, and the Architect's instructions, as intimidating as they sound, are part of this design.
there is no doubt that neo choosing right door is by design...but the fact that trinity is the new element in iteration 6 suggests to me that neo may well have chosen the left door in the previous 5 iterations...as surely the the change (trinity factor) is there for a reason..that reason being to make the one do something other than what he/she did in versions 1 - 6...
bellSep 04, 2003 at 10:44AM
my reading of the architect monitors in m1; basically the architect is monitoring the progress of the anomoly (on the architect screens in m2 you see numerous pictures of neo at various ages - who watches the watchers the tech is just checking up on his lab rat , seeing whether he is taking the cheese!) from the beggining of neo's life to the end, then his rebirth on toward the meeting with the architect, one would assume that the architect has carefully mapped out neo's path in advance (therefore everything that happens to neo, no matter how insignificant it may seem happend for a reason. The reason; various contribution to neo's make-up as an individual (persobnality traits, emotional responces, rebelious nature etc) have been carefully designed in order for control to be easily managable for the the powers that be... neo like all of us is a result of his experiances and interactions...neo is brainwashed...and if neo realises to a certain degree that many thing he thought were true are a lie...that realisation was by design...neo was meant to reach the conclusions that presented themselves before him by the end of m2...its all by design...though admittedly now with m3(the last part?) some kind of conclusion must present itself (the hardest part for the w's is to tie up everything from m1/m2 - now that si something to look forward to - good luck w's...
bellSep 04, 2003 at 10:55AM
numerology fan: ive read 1984 a few times , had to write a thesis on it at uni - not so much a horror, more a dystopian view of the future...you are right in a sense there are many similar elements between 1984 and m1/m2...subversion and miss direction are prominant in both for a start...winston smith is similar to neo in that he is given the illusion of hope, that he is striving toward the goal of freedom, but its is a false hope...o'brien befriend's winston filling his head with falsities and lies regarding the chance for freedom (morpheus anyone!) and julie winston shagpiece help's delude winston further regarding freedom...julie re-enforces winstons faith and hope (trin any body!)...
bellSep 04, 2003 at 10:59AM
for anyone unfamiliar with 1984...courtesey of...http://www.bookwolf.com/Free_Booknotes/1984_
by_George_Orwell/Context-1984/context-1984.html
Context
‘1984’ is a nightmare story concerning an authoritarian state of the near future, and one man’s futile struggle against it.
The story documents the hero, Winston Smith’s tortuous path to final acceptance of the system.He works in the Records Department of the Ministry of Truth, amending documents and altering the past. One of the doctrines of the Party is “Who controls the past, controls the present”.
He is dissatisfied with the austere environment in which he has to live and makes his first small step of rebellion by keeping a diary. He wrongly believes that a member of the Inner Party, O’Brien, is a kindred spirit. This man turns out to be Winston’s tormentor. His acts of rebellion increase in that he has an affair with another Party member, and they set up a secret love-nest.
All citizens are observed by telescreens, which are placed in people’s homes, in the streets, and in their workplaces, so that nothing is secret from the Thought Police, who control society.
Winston regards his sexual relationship with Julia as more than lovemaking, but a political statement against the Party and against Oceania, the superstate in which they live. There are two other such superstates, Eastasia and Eurasia, with whom Oceania has been at war at one time or another.
Believing that O’Brien is a member of the underground called The Brotherhood, Winston tells him about his acts of rebellion. Unknown to both Winston and Julia, their liaisons have been monitored through a secret telescreen concealed in their rented room. The inevitable happens. Winston and Julia are imprisoned and taken away by the Thought Police to the Ministry of Love in order to be cured, or rehabilitated.
It is not sufficient that they will be executed, this cannot happen until they have been cured.
O’Brien is Winston’s main torturer and Winston receives not only physical abuse, but also psychological torture. The process that Winston has to go through is firstly learning, secondly, understanding and finally, submission. The final phase is achieved in the dreaded Room 101, where Winston is forced to face what he secretly fears most. Winston will do anything rather than face this fear, and he ends up betraying Julia, pleading that she should face his fear rather than him.
At the end, Winston is pleased to have been cured. He feels gratitude and love for Big Brother.
bellSep 04, 2003 at 12:16PM
bezale1 says: Why should Zion be at the same place as its predecessors?
though i believe zion to be part of the matrix...for a second i will assume zion is in the real world...if the real world is as ravaged as morph and tank said in m1... then we must assume zion remain in the same place for the following reasons...
1. near to earths core...for power/heat etc
2. specific enviroment...atmosphere and oxegen levels must be specific to human needs
3. if zion is real, there will have to be a serious amount of terraforming/construction to be done assuming the previous 5 zions were in different places. remember the architect/ matrix purposefully builds zion, knowing very well that humans will escape.
i suppose the only way to explain why there arent any holes where previous digging took place is either...
1. the architect is lying...to the point that there were not 5 previous zions
2. zion is in the matrix (this theory now to me seems like the unavoidable obvious truth) :)
this begs the question: when the first person awakes from the matrix believing it to be fake, will one of the 23 go and find them instantly...do the 23 realise that the matrix exists (when released from the matrix to rebuild zion, have they had a memory erase(would seem logical to do so if you were the machine?))
what information are the 23 told when released into zion?
1. if zion is in the matrix would the 23 know this aswell as knowing that the matrix existed?
2. the 2'000 odd people you see around you are infact machine/a.i. and not zion bred (they may tell u from time to time that they are zion bred, you'll get used to it after a while...oh dont tell them that they are machines though).
3. here is the zion mainframe, its totaly fabricated...but it is up to u 23 to blag anyone who is freed into zion that it is the utmost truth of the history of this planet etc...
bellSep 04, 2003 at 1:18PM
apparantly, dont know if anybody else has heard this morph is going to do a darth on us in m3? read this in a artical...
ctm3Sep 05, 2003 at 1:24AM
Hmm maybe that stemmed from seeing the trailer where seraph is kicking a bald black dude.. some people thought it was morpheus turning bad but its clearly just another henchman.
beza1e1Sep 05, 2003 at 6:44AM
Hm people even thought it was Cipher on the table in the end of m2 ...
A point which supports that Zion is at the same place are the huge machines the Senator shows Neo at "night". Nobody knows how they work nor does anyone think about it as long as they work. This could mean that fromer Zionist built them. Or machines.
bellSep 05, 2003 at 7:17AM
ctm3 says:
Hmm maybe that stemmed from seeing the trailer where seraph is kicking a bald black dude.. some people thought it was morpheus turning bad but its clearly just another henchman.
no, i read the article on the net, lawerance fishburn was eluding to the fact that morpheous has a transformation of sorts during m3...will dig it up...
bellSep 05, 2003 at 7:46AM
bezale1, just been browing you ammended matrixwiki - its good and consise...though you should have a sub section on possible mother of the matrix...
1) trin 2) oracle 3) persophone etc... if trin was the mother of the matrix/mother of neo...look at the oedipus complex aspects of there relationsip...
very good breakdown of the films, nonetheless:)
bellSep 05, 2003 at 8:12AM
superruss says:
I just think its really cool how everyone with the last name "reeves" or close derivatives get to fly like superman in their movies...
3 anyway...george reeves and christopher reeve played superman...keanu reeves played super wooden man
i suppose there was martha reeves and the vandela's, does that count not sure if she flew, though she may have worn spandex when she was on stage belting those tunes out :)
bellSep 05, 2003 at 8:24AM
Q: How many Matrix fans does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: There is no lightbulb...
SajjmanSep 05, 2003 at 12:57PM
bell says:
Q: How many Matrix fans does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: There is no lightbulb...
hahahaha :P very good.
The W's should read this thread , i think they'll think its pretty fucking fun to read, so many people discussing their movies in all aspects possible ....
Well if u like RATM , then "Wake up" is a very fitting song for the end there.
P.S is it possible to count how many smiths there are in the Burly Brawl scene ? :P due to the 100 + 1 theory thingie :P
Spoon BoySep 05, 2003 at 2:02PM
P.S is it possible to count how many smiths there are in the Burly Brawl scene ? :P due to the 100 + 1 theory thingie :P
I've tried counting, with the scene paused on an aerial view of the courtyard. Very difficult to count the Smiths with any accuracy, although it is indeed somewhere in the area of 100. I stopped counting around 40. It's like trying to count a pile of moving ants.
The number 100 comes directly from the production notes. There have been several articles talking about how Neo fought 100 Smiths @ a time. In fact, the scene was entitled "Neo vs. 100 Agent Smiths", with a code name of Burly Brawl.
Here are a couple articles which mention 100 specifically:
http://mars.drw.net/acw83/
arslock/cinema.html
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/
entertainment/special_packages/
matrix/5842821.htm
stillinthebigMSep 05, 2003 at 5:27PM
Ghost says:
Hey here's a good question for ya:
Before you saw the first movie ( or even during the first part of the movie the first time you saw it ) what did you think the Matrix was? :)
When I first head the title I thought of matrix algebra but didn't think it was that. Once I decided to see the movie it was with the idea that it would examine life as an artifical construct. I was then and still am a member of a philosophical discussion group and we discuss these 'reality' topics quite often. A member went to see it and then said we MUST see it and then share what we thought. So as I stood on line at the theatre I figured it had to be something that raise questions about reality and freewill since it was so strongly reccommended by the member. I went to see M1 and not only did it raise the question it hammered home how unreal what we perceive to be reality can be at times. In the case of the movie and with M2 it looks like 'reality' is unreal about 99.999...% of the time.
The small part that is real is only so in potential (neo until he choose). The machines themselves want to be "real" and so Neo is their chance which is why the options he had were designed.
spoonboy says:Neo "chooses" Door 2 by design, and the Architect's instructions, as intimidating as they sound, are part of this design.
Bells says:there is no doubt that neo choosing right door is by design...but the fact that trinity is the new element in iteration 6 suggests to me that neo may well have chosen the left door in the previous 5 iterations...as surely the the change (trinity factor) is there for a reason..that reason being to make the one do something other than what he/she did in versions 1 - 6...
So the question is who designed it as such and why? The Oracle? the Architect, Trin Morpheus? I saw this past weekend a retelecast of the interview with Keanu Reeves, Carrie Ann Moss and Laurence Fishburn on PBS Charlie Rose program. Based on some of the things said, I do think Neo may be in for lessons on betrayal and compassion. Laurence stressed Neo learning compassion for machines as well as humans down the line. Is Trin a 'machine' or Morpheus even hence the betrayal or does he learn this machine compassion via Smith or the Oracle? I also heard rumours about them getting machines to help on the side of humans. If so maybe the Oracle is the one setting things up for her own end that may help humans but unbeknownst to the Architect uses his own designs for Neo to accomplish this. With Smith thrown in there and at the end of M2 being on the table opposite Neo, it looks like it's leading more toward a peaceful resolution but only after major war. That resolution must come about with a balance of power between humans and machines and a recogintion of the necessity each has for the other's survival-the symbiosis I spoke of earlier. I think all the 'smart' or 'intuitive' machines have some idea of this not all the smart humans do and power corrupts machines as it usually does for humans. So that leaves other smart machines and always seeking to maintain upper hand(maybe architect) while others were not (maybe the oracle. Then there are others human or machine on the verge of deciding between the gaining an upper hand or balanced coexistance. (maybe Smith, maybe Neo).
Speculation once again but it's something that must be resolved in M3. I think maybe even at some point in the future of humanity a similar reslolution will have to be reached.
Read the article cyborg liberation front:http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0331/baard.php
And: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0317/baard.php
I think as species we have yet to resolve the issue of peaceful or at least balanced coexistance between our fellow humans and more so the reast of nature based on the mutual need we have for each other. In a movie anything can happen and so I think it will be resolved even if not to our satisfaction in M3. In life I think the Wbrothers also wanted us to think about existance and reality and what makes a being human. It is something we need to do something about and soon before we destroy ourselves in the name of being in control. Bush's face isn't thrown in the matrix for no reason. The articles to the links I posted indicate a debate going on in academia and technology research that may require examining these issues for real. The movies had a sense of urgency to it and so that's why I think the W may have wanted what I wrote above again considering what is going on in 'real' life
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 05, 2003 at 5:40PM
Thanks for the flowers bell. If you really want to make me happy, use the edit button ;)
I'd say there are 100 Smiths, because it hurts nobody and just feels right. Would it change something if it were only 99 Smiths?
NumerologyFanSep 06, 2003 at 1:58AM
Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
NOTE 5: The Architect speaks of Zion as if it is outside the Matrix.
NOTE 6: The function of the One is to take the code he has gathered from his life experience and return it to the source in order to improve the next version of the Matrix. It is possible that part of this code that is unique to the life experiences of Neo as the sixth “One” has been gathered from his interaction with Agent Smith. Furthermore, in the same way that this interaction has allowed Agent Smith to override humans in the Real World, in his first interaction with Squidy Sentinels since BEFORE he had this interaction at the end of Part 1, Neo is able to override the Squidy Sentinels. “Something’s different. I can feel them this time” may refer to the difference between this encounter with the Squidy Sentinels AFTER his interaction with Agent Smith and his previous encounter with them BEFORE his interaction with Agent Smith.
NOTE 7: The One will also then select 23 individuals who live inside the Matrix to free and insert as the founders of Zion. This is why in Part 1 Morpheus told Neo that the “man born inside who could change the Matrix” “freed the first of them.” This repetition wherein the previous “One” from the previous matrix loop frees 23 people from the Matrix explains why there is the prophecy that the “One” will return.
NOTE 8: The Architect speaks clearly of the extermination of Zion’s residents as separate from the cataclysmic system crash of the Matrix that will occur if Neo stays in the Matrix and refuses to select the 23 to build the next Zion. Zion’s destruction is, therefore, not related to the system crash of the Matrix, implying both that Zion is outside the Matrix and that the machines, not Neo, will destroy Zion.
just a note from http://www.geocities.com/clark_kent0002/
ctm3Sep 06, 2003 at 5:43AM
A friend sent me this link today. I thought this group might enjoy reading about it. Basicly theorizing about how all particles are interelated in the universe no matter of distance or time.
What else the superhologram contains is an open-ended question. Allowing, for the sake of argument, that the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of "All That Is."
My mind is done baked!
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 06, 2003 at 6:07AM
I am currently reading a larger interpretation about m2. I disagree with the authors view of the bible so far (Loki is the bible??), but he makes an interesting statement in the beginning, i can fully accept. It concerns the beloved MwM theory.
I am going to specifically address the second-Matrix theory in a separate essay. I have realized that everyone who emailed me insisting that Zion is in a second Matrix are unknowingly hinting at a fascinating truth. I am distinguishing between the "Matrix-in-a-Matrix" theory, which is generally about the impossibility of escaping the Matrix and which is still completely wrong, and what I now call the "second-Matrix" theory, which is a metaphor for a profound philosophical point. The working thesis is: What Neo learned when he transcended the Matrix was that all reality is simulation. He has applied this lesson to the Matrix; now he is applying it to the real world.
This is a version of MwM i can subscribe ;)
bellSep 07, 2003 at 9:54AM
the phone booth theory... flawed and i admit i came up with it, and i should have paid more attention to the architects screens in m2...because you see on the screens neo in that very phone box from m1... oh well the thought was there...
unless the screens also see the future, as well as the past...eg trin dying????
Ken WaisSep 08, 2003 at 10:01AM
Actually I believe this story might be an adaptation these two brothers made after reading a popular science version of a mathematical physicist's work called The Physics of Immortality. His name is Frank Tipler and the last time I checked he was a professor of theoretical physics (Gen Rev) at Tulane Univ in New Orleans.
He has been derided for this outlandish theory in the physics community. He proposed the idea the idea that in the far future if life was to survive it would have to create an AI that would allow it to escape this planet and seed the universe with ourselves (actually with computer emulations of ourselves). But, the AI would eventually grow so omniscent, omnipresent and omnipotent, it would in effect become God. He wrote the book as a true scientific explanation of God that didn't rely on beliefs of traditional monetheistic religons. After seeing both these films and the closeness of their themes to the book, I can almost swear they got their idea for the Matrix from Tipler.
The book was written for a lay audience and has many a logic fallacy. For this AI God to be actualized, an incredible contingency of things will have to happen.
He puts together a hodge-podge of abstruse concepts from diverse fields (for instance the turing test, Incompleteness Theorem, Quantum Gravity, General Relativity, cognitive science, Many Worlds Interpretation, quantum mechanics, the halting problem, Beckenstein Bound, Markov chains, etc.) and constrasts them with the mysticism of the 3 major monotheistic religons to make his point. And his point is: that before the universe gets to its max expansion point, then starts to contract to a point of singularity, there will be an AI God that will create an infinitely progressive world for us. We will have made this AI sometime in the 21st to 22nd centuries when we've developed enough computer processing power. After that the process will start to grow on its own. Isn't this story sounding more and more like the Matrix? I haven't described the whole thing. Okay well maybe they didn't read but they talked to some guy that did read and then said BINGO! We a great story here!
I've written two in depth reviews of the M-1 and M-2 on my website, but won't list the url here as I'm not trying to pitch my site, but let others outside the fields of math and physics know where these guys are getting their material. What's bad about it is it's just the sort a thing I wish wouldn't happen. Same old Hollywood theme of total human extermination, oh boy...
bellSep 08, 2003 at 10:20AM
numerology fan says:NOTE 8: The Architect speaks clearly of the extermination of Zion’s residents as separate from the cataclysmic system crash of the Matrix that will occur if Neo stays in the Matrix and refuses to select the 23 to build the next Zion.
it would seem logical at the point that the architect would not elude to the fact zion is not real...simply because he would lose some of the control over neo...or it is neccesary for neo to find out for himself that zion is fake (neos evolution, purpose may demand this!)...
ken wais...excellent post will have to get hold of tipler...
bellSep 08, 2003 at 10:33AM
609 posts, me thinks this may have to be archived soon...without taking anything for granted...do you think jason will allow us a 3rd thread (specifically a matrix revolutions thread?)...
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 08, 2003 at 11:45AM
Interesting things, Ken ... but you can't hide in the internet. "The Matrix: The AI Uneducation" is an interesting read ;)
Google doesn't show up anything for "tipler matrix", he must be quite unknown?
Ken WaisSep 09, 2003 at 8:14AM
Thanks for all your positive comments. Beza1el Tipler has nothing to do with the The Matrix and you won't find him that way. I'm simply saying his seminal idea that God is going to be an AI in the far future with the Wach bros make use of. Try Frank Tipler on Google and I'm sure you'll get him and the book I mentioned. By the way, since we're talking about Tipler, here how he gets to a super-intelligent AI creating a perfect (matrix-like) world for us. Well this growing AI by necessity if going to be all-knowing must reconstruction everything that has gone before it or else it wouldn't be Omniscent now would it. So, it does. This amounts to resurrection as predicted in the 3 mono religions again. Only the resurrection will be computer emulations our former selves. See how much this sounds like the Matrix. More you say? Consider this we as DSMs (discrete state machines, another concept from math physics he uses) can process at most 10*14 bits of info, a super-AI would be able to be handle 10*43 bits. So communications betwn us an 'it' is rather like us to insects or worst. We would only know it only thru this artificial environment it makes for us...and remember the real universe becomes more and more uninhabitable by flesh and blood. See it's things like this that make say: oh these guys must've read it! Then I stop and think: wait Leibniz discovered differntial calc independent of Newton. Okay maybe that didn't read it.
By the way if gen rel is right the maximal expansion pt of the universe is somewhere close to 90 to 100 billion yrs from now.
Ken WaisSep 09, 2003 at 1:07PM
beza1e1 I went to your site about wiki and find it interesting and somewhat confusing. I you really saying that those threads can be edited, changed and rewritten from what others have previously posted? This is like a kind of cyber graffitti, where another comes along with a new can of spray paint puts his stuff over the last stuff or appends to it? This is all new to me, my dear man. Forgive me if I seem uninformed on this topic, because I am. But, you mean to say it's not like a list of appended remarks added on serially like this site, but one where each visitor can take what's there and change and rework it? That seems like a formula for bickering and argument. People saying: Hey that guy wrote over my so-n-so, okay, I'll write over his such-n-such, No, that can't be what you mean. But it's (that is your site, or the site you host) all about the Matrix. The style of your Matrix site reminds me of game theory. All the variables (characters in your case) and rules are defined (stories in your case) and you theorize about possible outcomes. Now that's hip! And the Matrix lends itself to this sorta reasoning. Something like Terminator wouldn't. I like this. What do you mean by MwM? Matrix within a Matrix?
Ken WaisSep 09, 2003 at 9:31PM
has anybody thought about the notion of the 'absurd' in existential philosophy in the Matrix?
that is the even if the Matrix is perfect creation of an infinitely intelligent being isn't still meaningless. Like when at some point in your life you realize well I'm alive and will die in 70 or 80 years and have to make a career, but damn why? This is ridiculous! I then ask to be born from the sex of parents and damn I don't wanna die, but this absurd. Life doesn't make sense. Has anybody considered the Matrix from this viewpoint? That is, even if there is an Artificer that create a perfect matrix of infinity, that was disturbed by the human element of 'choice' it is still a meaningless structure no matter how we view it. Has anybody considered this? Jean Paul Satre would be very mad with us we didn't consider that point. That is, that there is not meaning to reality, no reason to existence, but just existence itself and a conscious awareness of it. And the consciousness is a shear activity as he said going towards as he said ...nothingness.
Old_GobboSep 09, 2003 at 11:11PM
Have we yet considered that maybe Neo can stop the squiddies because of his interaction with Trin at the end of m2? As with smith, neo enters Trinity's body, in this case effectively doing what he did to smith. Maybe this completed some sort of circuit (or the "Trinity") or something.. let me explain.
Smith and Neo exchange something during their encounter. Smith can replicate himself now. What does Neo get? all the shit he does is just normal "One" stuff (which he realized when he came back from the dead), -except- for when he goes in Smith and when he sticks his hand in Trinity (at least I think). So maybe Neo gets something from Trinity (the power to stop squiddies and the like), She is after all undoubtably special in some way.. she's not the One.. she somehow brings Neo back from the dead, Yes, the oracle predicted this, but it still hasn't been explained.
Smith can replicate himself by sticking his hand into someone.. and his powers (as we've seen) can extend beyond the matrix so whose to say that Neo -- who would now be at the focle point of this "trinity" he has made with Smith himself and Trinity -- can't extend his powers to the world outside the matrix (if such a thing exists)?
beza1e1 - MatrixWikiSep 10, 2003 at 5:49AM
A Wiki is difficult to explain. I would send you to the original Wiki to look for some answers.
I'm no Sartre expert, but he looks very dark to me and as far as i remember he had to struggle with depressions in the end of his life. As a christian life makes sense to me.
Consider the Matrix from this viewpoint? What does the meaning of life have to do with Matrix? I thought about the machines and their aim for a while. They must have a similar view of life, but as the architect states, they are willing to sacrifice it, thus living is not that important to them. What more can you say about the meaning of life?
I don't think we will get answers how and why Neo can stop the squiddies, like we got no answers how Trinity could revive him. This is not science, but story telling. The W's can't explain everything, but they can tell us something.
It seems to me in Matrix you don't get powers by merging with someone, rather by dieing and resurrecting. After Neo came back, he was the One. After Smith came back, he could copy himself. Trinity now came back as well!?
Ken WaisSep 10, 2003 at 9:37AM
A behind the scenes shot of the making of : The Matrix Reloaded
We're looking for a guy to play the part of the Key Maker today. Now you guys know we want less than a spectacular performance here. You're not gonna git an Oscar for being the Key Maker. You gotta be scared, frightened, you gotta look like a scared trapped mouse throughout the scenes...and in the end we have'em knock your scared ass off. Now on the positive side you git to ride ass-backwards with one the sweetest cream puff asses this side of St. Louie...Carrie-Ann ya wanna put hand up back there. Carrie-Ann Moss stands up at the back of the room looks at 20 or so guys auditions and blows a kiss to them.
That's my girl, Carrie, hots little uhh well...
Okay anyway, which one of you guys will make it? Larry Wach walks back and forth survey the line up of hopefuls like their a rare species of birds. Remember ya gotta be scared, ya gotta be a big punk that hauls ass as soon as the fighting starts...
Suddenly a lanky, slender young guy at the back of the room raises his hand.
Yeah, what? you got a question?
Yeah
What's your name son?
Bryan
Yeah Bryan?
Well uh sir, I was wondering if the Key Maker, like if the Key Maker got to do any fighting?
Larry face flushes crimson and he can hardly contain himself....He spits out smoke from the cigarette he's been smoking and says:
Phil! git'em outta here.
Two large bouncers escort the skinny guy outside.
Well the end of our behind the scenes look at the making of the Matrix Reloaded
stillinthebigMSep 10, 2003 at 2:37PM
Speaking of Frank Tipler, there was an article in scientific American that I thought was Tipleresque. It also reminded me of the matrix.
The idea of reality being "written" on a two dimensional surface like a hologram and the possibility of our perception of the world as three dimensional being profound illusion raised my matrix detector. It did even more when the author used the analogy of a computer memory capacity to ask how much matter and energy a region of the universe can hold. Ayway excerpts from the article below. If you like astromomy and cosmology this may be interesting.
Complete article here:
Information in the Holographic Universe
Theoretical results about black holes suggest that the universe could be like a gigantic hologram
By Jacob D. Bekenstein
.....This viewpoint invites a new look at venerable questions. The information storage capacity of devices such as hard disk drives has been increasing by leaps and bounds. When will such progress halt? What is the ultimate information capacity of a device that weighs, say, less than a gram and can fit inside a cubic centimeter (roughly the size of a computer chip)? How much information does it take to describe a whole universe? Could that description fit in a computer's memory? Could we, as William Blake memorably penned, "see the world in a grain of sand," or is that idea no more than poetic license?
Remarkably, recent developments in theoretical physics answer some of these questions, and the answers might be important clues to the ultimate theory of reality. By studying the mysterious properties of black holes, physicists have deduced absolute limits on how much information a region of space or a quantity of matter and energy can hold. Related results suggest that our universe, which we perceive to have three spatial dimensions, might instead be "written" on a two-dimensional surface, like a hologram. Our everyday perceptions of the world as three-dimensional would then be either a profound illusion or merely one of two alternative ways of viewing reality. A grain of sand may not encompass our world, but a flat screen might.
Ken WaisSep 10, 2003 at 5:39PM
Well now we're really cooking. Stilly I tried your link but it doesn't pull in the page. It's intriguing in that Tipler posits some rather strange physics idea without any proof them. I imagine that's why half the community is laughing at his notions. For instance states that near the big crunch as this super-intelligent AI has converted us to computer emulations that configuration space (that is 3 d with one d of time) will go to zero as its momentum that is'mv' (mass*velocity) diverges to infinity. So the universe will be a very small point of singularity, but since it's momentum is infinite it will be able to survive and stop the squeezing out of existence that would normally occur. It will be what he calls: The Omega Point. Of course he never proves this. He assumes it more a less. It will appear to us that the world is beautiful and perfect. It will be heaven. It will be the Matrix. He also tries but my opinion fails to show that our actualized universe the one that Many Worlds Interpretation must develop.
Sure if we had infinite computing capacity we'd have a sorta God. But how does this occur? What real actions in the next 2 centuries will we take that will allow us to create a DSM that keeps growing in its knowledge and ability to accumulate knowledge. Tips silent on this. That's why I think these guy read his book. An AI God is as unlikely as this movie's theme and plot. But, I can't fault these guys too much. At least they have a story that doesn't used tired catch phrases like 'some kinda tachyion burst in the forward weapons array' or a kinda beta-jeta-meta thingamajig that penetrates the whatchamucallit!
TazmasterSep 10, 2003 at 11:24PM
The holographic universe theory is new to me and very interesting. I appreciate the posts on it. Otherwise, I wouldn't have stumbled upon this idea for who knows how long. I notice however that most of the sites found in a typical Google search seem to be variations of some original article. They quote each other verbatim!
Brisvegas1Sep 11, 2003 at 8:04AM
Man - If you guys like tippler - you will love greg egan... I mean love him. check out http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/ - there are even the full text of some of his short stories there.
The thing is - most of his novels are about consciousness - and what it would be like to be a software entity living in a computer generated reality... sound familiar? His stories go indepth into the progression of human scientific endeavour that could lead to copies - software versions or "real life" humans running on computer systems.
Seriously - read permutation city - it will give you a whole new level of appreciation for the matrix stories - so much more of it makes sense.
Brisvegas1Sep 11, 2003 at 8:35AM
it's funny - peoples discussions of the nature of consciousness and reality often follow teechnical revolutions... people using hydrolica as a metaphor, steam engines, computers and yes, even holograms.
Today the latest theories revolve around computation - both classical and quantum.
I wonder how far the W. bros will go down the path of explaining the basis of computation in their films... amazing really- I mean sure the religious symbolism is obvious - but the w. bros seem to sample evenly form just about every religion and culture they can get they're hands on... so I don't get the feeling of the religious overtones that other people seem too.. instead what I am blown away by is the philosophical implications of the technical dimensions of the story.
Just human nature to focus on what you are interested in.
simon.bellSep 12, 2003 at 8:31AM
technology, religion and philosophy are all interchangeable within the matrix as well as our own society. we all need ideology (especially the labour government under prime sinister blair), we follow one path we lose faith in the path, the whole needs to be filled, we follow another religion, adopt a different philosophy on life, we lose faith again...so now many put there faith and too much i would say in technology and corrupt politicians...its quite sad realy!
bellSep 12, 2003 at 8:34AM
the net seems to be drying up regards to info on revolutions, looks as though well have to wait till the dvd release of reloaded before any more info is released...
Brisvegas1Sep 14, 2003 at 9:33PM
yes - I think the fact that the final film in the trilogy is coming out so soon makes it hard for most people to summon the enthusiasm for the sort of research that you saw go into the first matrix film...
you really have to admire the way they have kept the film under lock and key... so many films recently have hit the net as soon as any bit of it was outsorced for post production... you just haven't seen anything like that for the matrix.
After spending so much time on this thread speculating about the film though - I think I just want to avoid all the film hype I can between now and revolutions coming out - I don't want to have anything confirmed one way or the other untill I am in my seat in the cinema watching it unfold before me.
TazmasterSep 15, 2003 at 3:12AM
Unfortunately, this has happened...in a way. I regret to inform you all of this site: http://www.spectaculent.com/ BEFORE you visit this site, please be aware that it hosts 5 new and unreleased trailers for Revolutions. These appear to be TV spots that are not finalized yet (i.e.-some effects unfinished).
I am about to cry because the new footage revealed in these spots is obviously meant to air AFTER the movie has been out at least a week...And even worse...it seems to confirm several aspects of the Revolutions synopsis we all thought had to be fake. These being Neo's blindness at the hands of Smith on the Logos, Trin and Neo travelling to the machine city to meet a "godlike" machine and make a deal to save the machines from Smith in return for the safety of mankind.....I'm very depressed now. Gotta go bang my head on a wall. Laters.
TazmasterSep 15, 2003 at 4:38AM
OK, I've had a few minutes to apply bandages to my head and watch the trailers a few more times. There's a TON of stuff in these things. So much...I bet we could go another 600 posts just discussing them. I hope I have not horribly damaged your anticipation for M3.
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 15, 2003 at 1:27PM
I decided to watch those trailers nevertheless, but i know i will enjoy revolutions even if i know the whole story. I refused to watch this new pirate movie (don't know the title in english) at my friends PC, but now i find no time to go to cinema :-P
ctm3Sep 15, 2003 at 3:13PM
It looks like Star Wars :) I wonder if the W's are gonna crack down on this guy. Some of the effects were not done and the models were not textured so they must be cranking it out on the render farms. Looks cool nonetheless.
TazmasterSep 15, 2003 at 6:28PM
The name you see in certain portion of the trailers says Property of Warner Brothers Gianonomo...That last word is the name of a company that many major studios send their trailers for editing. How much you wanna bet they suddenly had a few job openings today:)
ctm3Sep 16, 2003 at 12:18AM
http://www.giaronomo.com/current.html
Old_GobboSep 16, 2003 at 1:49AM
”failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, that coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extermination of the entire human race”
Neo goes through the “wrong door” guess what.. There is no cataclysmic system crash.. Unless it is a process which takes along time to happen. So if this were to happen the machines would likely be struggling to find some sort of answer to the cataclysmic system crash which would kill everyone connected. Now, the machines in all their infinite wisdom must have thought of this.. Because I only have a human mind.. So if this were to happen, if everyone connected were to die, then why wouldn’t the machines simply halt the attack on Zion.. Take those humans and use them to create another batch of humans.. Or what about all those babies we see growing in their fields.. (“there are levels of survival we are prepared to accept”) we still know the machines are kicking around after this supposed cataclysmic system crash.. Surely them in all their infinite wisdom, with all the arsenal they have at their disposal.. Why wouldn’t they find some way to surivive? And in finding a way to survive they would also (come at least one step closer to) solve the answer to the question of the One?
Why would the machines do this?.. because the Architect is lying, if he’s not lying then at least this brings up the (possibly coincidental, possibly genius) concept of the human mind being superior to AI this point of view expresses.
bellSep 16, 2003 at 10:06AM
dont seem to be able to view rev trailers mentioned above, perhaps a good thing? do the trailer allude to one theory or another MwM etc...
GhostSep 16, 2003 at 12:32PM
Old_Gobbo said: "Why wouldn’t they find some way to survive".
I think they are going to find a different way because something happened and it was the last straw for them using "Human Power".
I'm still not sure if this has to do with Neo or Smith but something forced the machines to realize the fact that humans/Matrix can no longer be used to produce power for them. If someone could enlighten me that would be great.
But the Tech didn't tell the complete truth. And the fact that the Tech lied makes it hard to form a solid theory.
But I do agree "the human mind being superior to AI".
TazmasterSep 16, 2003 at 1:58PM
bell says:
dont seem to be able to view rev trailers mentioned above, perhaps a good thing? do the trailer allude to one theory or another MwM etc...
» by bell on September 16, 2003 at 10:06:58 ET
I believe Warner Brothers put a stop to the hosting of these files on the net for the time being.
ctm3Sep 16, 2003 at 4:33PM
Glad they are gone. The fact that the vids are down means they have pretty good scouts on the net. They are most likely reading this thread too, no? :) Don't worry guys I'm gonna see your movie 3 times at least then hit the dvd set as well.
For those that missed the trailers and wanted to see them, I wont send them to ya but..
spoilers-----
There was no MwM info going on as far as I could see. Neo clearly has powers in whatever world they appear to be in. What was shown was the godlike machine where Neo is making a deal with since the machines cannot stop the Smith program but 'he' can. Looks like Trin and Neo venture their ship out there and he is blindfolded throughout. Theres now a guy jumping in front of the loop train. Neo and Smith crash into each other head on. Theres a spectacular explosion on the surface of the earth. Theres the human harvest fields. The Oracle is shown. Bane is shown with bloody lines down his face, and Neo looks like he can see the code of Bane, but its a firey glowing face of Smith. Smith is clearly shown to be corrupting the Matrix. Blah blah blah tons of ships fighting, crashing. Oh and plenty of squiddies that would make a japanese fishing vessel scared. The most revealing was a shot of Neo walking and perhaps assimilating and destroying himself into the machine and its tenticles. Someones going to bite it.
spoilers-----
bellSep 17, 2003 at 9:25AM
cheers guys :) explosion on the surface of the earth, is interesting! as had more or less convinced myself there was no earth!
beza1e1 - MatrixWikiSep 18, 2003 at 4:51AM
It seems like the spoiler bell found at the beginning of the second thread becomes true
http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?
Cat=&Board=matrix%20&Number=222964&page=0
&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
Not the best possibilitie but not bad either
SajjmanSep 18, 2003 at 3:50PM
Has it been mentioned that the principle of "The Matrix" is almost identical to Sokrates and Platons "The Cave" theory ? That if u're used to one reality you're bound to that one until someone releases you and you see the other reality ? It must have been mentioned , and if not i'll try to explain more in detail.
Ken WaisSep 18, 2003 at 6:37PM
Sajjman, this 'cave' sounds interesting, do expand. Sounds like a version of relativism.
On a more concrete note. Whom really believes that Matrix: Revolutions will be the last episode of this series? The Wach irmaos will come up with a reason to have another sequel. They must there's too much money to be made. Remember how Georgie Lucas swore no more Star Wars after SW3? What they will do is wait until the clamoring for it reaches a peak (about a year or so) and then break down and release something like The Matrix: Loaded, Locked, and coming at ya! Or some such catch phrase. This one will have new actors with the exception of Reeves, Fishburne and Moss and new technology. Look for it in about oh I'd say 2004 late fall or 2005 early spring.
My prediction, just wait and see.
Old_GobboSep 18, 2003 at 8:05PM
Sajjman.. if we buy into the cave thoery (and I attest wholeheartedly to the similarities) then Neo has to die at the end..
just food for thought
Spoon BoySep 18, 2003 at 8:16PM
Ken Wais says:
Whom really believes that Matrix: Revolutions will be the last episode of this series?
If done right, there will be nothing left to say after Revolutions. With the proper ending, the only place to go next would be back to the beginning of M1.
The Wbros have always claimed that the Matrix was originally conceived as a trilogy. According to them, Reloaded and Revolutions were not reactively contrived sequels to a successful movie, but rather two-thirds of a larger story that would be produced if the first third succeeded. That being said, we can only assume that a Matrix 4 would be a deviation from their vision, and would likely suck.
There will be plenty money to be made in the booming gaming industry after this year. They can certainly capitalize there.
Ken WaisSep 18, 2003 at 9:45PM
Spoon Boy, I stand by my prediction. I'd like to bet, they can't resist their money-lust for another go around. George Lucas said the same thing about Star Wars now didn't he. Gaming be damned, these guys are in it for the huge profits to be made from a feature length film and there will be another Matrix. I so firmly believe this will come to pass that if I'm wrong. well ..why why there is a God after all, a fact we all know to be untrue. Maybe it'll be something about how The Matrix ever got to be made. You know we didn't get a detailed history of the war of mankind vs machines. If this Nov episode score records at the box office, it's a virtual certainty. You gotta think Hollywood man. Hollywood is money incarnate. Who would've thought that the next governor of Californie would have made a sequence for sequence remake of T2? A singularly boring pic. Or a Jaw II, or Aliens 3 or that tired series Star Trek on and on ad infinitum. It's not art but a commercial business we're being suckered by, for heaven sakes. Stop considering the story and think about the investors, the firms, the all-pervading money lust that drives this engine. I'll tell a Matrix, the matrix is the hoards of loyal fans philosophizing about what after all is just an outlandish fiction and parting with 8 to 10 bucks every few months that's the Matrix for sure.
TazmasterSep 19, 2003 at 12:58AM
Heh, I saw one of those leaked ads on TV tonight...
bellSep 19, 2003 at 9:49AM
star trek nemesis was not bad at all, an improvement on the other next gen movies:) as far as further matrix movies... if there were to be further sequals one suspect that the w's will not be involved (executive producer at best!). i think the w's will be satisfied that the story they tell over the course of the trilogy will be satisfieng to them. though i would be against a t3/alien4 type continuation of the matrix, i would be intersted in more anime, perhaps the previous 5 iterations could be presented through anime... did one of you guys say that in the 'pulled' rev trailers, there was a scene in which neo saw bane in matrix code? can you eloborate please... is this confirming that zion is in the matrix?
GhostSep 19, 2003 at 11:48AM
If the W's are as passionate about this story as they appear to be they won't under any circumstances expand on the end threw the medium of a movie. But they do have the MMORPG out soon that picks up where the movie is supposed to leave off. I absolutely agree with Ken that the history of the war can be expanded but that could happen threw anime, PS2, MMORPG, comics, etc. One thing I know for sure is there is going to be another PS2 game. That game made the W's allot of money and they are huge gamers. You can expect to see that soon.
Spoon BoySep 19, 2003 at 12:18PM
Ken Wais says,
George Lucas said the same thing about Star Wars now didn't he.
Not sure which of Lucas' statements you're referring to here. I don't recall Lucas ever claiming there wouldn't be another trilogy of prequels made. It was always probable. After all, 1977's Star Wars began @ Episode IV, didn't it?
NumerologyFanSep 19, 2003 at 12:50PM
oh no! Me moron! i got some time out of here and when I come i find there were TV spots anda that they are gone! :'( Could any one send it to me?
please, my email in my name here down
GhostSep 19, 2003 at 12:56PM
I saw the spot for the first time last night. One scene there is a ship headed right at the ground and the sky in back of the ship isn't scorched (its actually perfectly clear). Could this be an indication that there is another world or reality involved? Or is it simply my imagination? Help Anyone?
Ken WaisSep 19, 2003 at 1:04PM
I seem to remember Lucas denying he was interested in continuing the SW project at all. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, granted. I know the latest episodes were prequels. Anyway, I know this comes off as being cynical, but I find it hard to believe in the integrity of filmmakers of sci fi material. It's a mundane truism that we base I expectations of the future on past experience. But. a truism nonetheless. This is what I'm really basing my prediction upon.
Prize fighters retire and somebody whispers: you know the next gate could getcha 100 million in one fell swoop Rocky...uh I don't know, I said this is itfor on TV remember?....but, it's a 100 mil Rocky baby,.. Yeah, uh but I'm 40 now, aint' I too old for this... but well okay.
As for games and animations, etc . They're for computer users like us. They don't reach the millions upon millions of possible movie goers worldwide. The only way to pack'em in is with a feature length film.
Ghost you're right. If the Wachs won't, then somebody else will buy the rights and do it. We can already see the rip-offs. I saw a trailer for something called "the underground' or something like that, that is so 'Matrix' tempered it's a crying shame. Remember, though it may be hard to believe not EVERYBODY in this world has a computer these days. And many of this mass are avid movie lovers.
If this doesn't convince you there will be a movie sequel, then look at statistically. Collect a few variables about remakes in the past and do a regression analysis with the hypothesis being: Is it likely that a popular movie with 2 sequels will have a third. Assume you want at least 5% degree of confidence. Use a time sample block of say 50 years and I'm almost as certain the result will be a Yes. Not
that stats will prove anything.
Okay, that's my last comment on the subject, don't wanna piss anything in this thread off with my cynical opinions ya know.
bellSep 19, 2003 at 1:52PM
you quite correct in ure assessment ken, hollwood is cynical and if matrix 4 guarentees profit, joel silver will make it...
matrix 4: the matrix ressurection
staring
mccally culkin as neo
neve campbell as trinity
samuel l jackson as morpheus
directed by jan de bont (tomb raider 2) or paul anderson (event horizon and soldier)
premise... complete rehash of matrix... open ended... leading to matrix 5 a total rehash of reloaded...
etc...etc...etc...
scary thought, lets hope the w's have enough muscle to stop joel silver from devaluing the trilogy!
GhostSep 19, 2003 at 2:44PM
Don't forget the Saturday morning cartoon. About the life of pre-teen hackers battling mini-agents.
SajjmanSep 19, 2003 at 7:11PM
For all those who are not familiar with the Sokrates and Platons "The Cave" theory i will now present it and dont make fun of me if i missremember something ;D
Sokrates and Platon said that if you imagined yourself a cave and deep inside you have a group of people chained(their ancles and arms so they cant turn around) with their backs facing the entry hole of the cave. The only picture of the world these people had were the shadows that were displayed on the cave wall (they had a a fire in there so the wall was lighted up) and it didnt bother them since that was REALITY to them, they hadnt seen anything else. But one day , one in the group decided to open his mind and broke loose from the chains and head out of the cave. Outside the man was chocked by what he saw, he saw a world in 3D of colors and full of live and he felt so overwhelmingly happy that it was indescribel. But this man was not selfish , he went back to the cave to free his friends (what Neo does) so they also could share this beauty that was his new reality, but it did not turn out as he thought. Instead of just releasing them he had to convince them that there was such a thing but the group refused to believe him and it ended up with the group killing the man for beeing a lier or something.
I read a perfect report on this which explained all in detail and drew paralells so you understood it very good , but unfortunately the page is in swedish so most of you wont be able to read it :(
Noone seriously posted this before? And as Old_gobbo says this would mean that Neo will die in revolutions ...
Spoon BoySep 19, 2003 at 7:50PM
You forgot the the reality TV show. The Real American Great Matrix World Race, hosted by Jeff Probst. All the characters wear rubber masks and live in one folder, light virtual torches, and vote people off the hard drive until somebody wins a date with Paula Abdul.
Morpheus: "Waaazzzup dog!"
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 20, 2003 at 9:31AM
Sajiman:
The theory is from Platos "Republic" (we don't know about Socrates, because he never published anything, all we know about him is third person narrations, mainly from his pupil Plato). The man who returns, would more likely to be Morpheus and Morpheus is not very popular in Zion for his One-theory.
Have a look into my MatrixWiki for some links on this topic in connection with Matrix.
After the spoilers we have, Neo will just save the day by rescueing the Matrix from Smith, which would lead to a Hollywood-conform Happy End. I would like to see Neo dieing, because tragedy would give the film more depth.
All the leaked trailers have the release date at the end, so the idea, they would come out after the release is nonsense.
bellSep 20, 2003 at 9:40AM
its plato's cave and aristotals campfire, i mentioned aristotals campire earlier on this thread. roughly the same analogy...
bellSep 20, 2003 at 9:40AM
its plato's cave and aristotals campfire, i mentioned aristotals campire earlier on this thread. roughly the same analogy...
bellSep 20, 2003 at 9:42AM
sorry for the double post...
so where are we now with this? i havent seen the 6 tv trailers that were pulled from the net, so im at a disadvantage. but i assume most of you have...
so...what theories do you tend to lean toward now you have seen the new footage?
Ken WaisSep 20, 2003 at 9:55AM
Thanks Bell. Sammie Jack won't Morpheus, Denzel Washington.
Sajjman, what you're proposing or whomever the source of this bit of reasoning is, is proposing is a simply a form of relativism.
How do we know that there isn't large world beyond the one the guy liberates himself from. And a larger one, and a larger one. If we think of reality in concentric circles going down infinitely small and going up infinitely large, we never have certain knowledge of our external reality. Physicist say stop: we are getting the bottom things we theorize about quarks and their 12 different varieties. At some point there must be a concrete indivisible reality. The liberated man representing Neo really just brings the problem of other minds into focus. How is we know other thinking beings exist and think like us? We assume that they are like us (we relate them to us) We communicate with them. But suppose a person's color blind when we say that object is green, he says grey, who is right?
Old_GobboSep 20, 2003 at 12:48PM
No offense to beza1e1 - Matrixwiki but I seriously doubt the W's are gonna finish off the trilogy with a "hollywood ending". Based purely on the way the movies are constructed, which is basically in a metaphysical arrow pointing to the unknown.. or rather to the questions relating to it. I'm almost positive the ending will be left open to interpretation; if it's not I, I'm hoping the W's can wrap things up well enough to not ruin the whole masterpeice of a story. I wouldn't be suprised if Neo dies.. but I wouldn't be if he didn't too (I heard some possible plotline where he gets blinded at the end), I guess we'll have to wait and see
bell (England)Sep 20, 2003 at 1:26PM
i havent posted here as much recently but im amazed how long this thread has gone on for...
2 more weeks and reloaded comes out on DVD, do think there will be a commentary (very doubtfull i suppose, as the w's what not want to allude to too much), has reloaded come out in the states yet, if so whats on the disk/s
TazmasterSep 20, 2003 at 3:15PM
I'm sure that IF the W's do a commentary (big IF) it will be after all three movies are released in some sort of uber pricey collector's edition. I mean, if they did a commentary and explained all there is to know...it would sort of take the mystique away and that mystique is a major part of the trilogy's appeal to us, right?
As for what I think based off of the leaked TV spots...I have no freaking idea what's gonna happen. The blue sky mentioned earlier could be above the scorched sky layer. Neo is definately blinded. There is a god like machine that Neo is trying to convince that he can stop Smith. The only thing I didn't see was the kid turn into the architect...everything else seemed to back up the "Dolan" scriptment or whatever they call it these days.
Prediction - Neo will die, but live on inside the Matrix.
GhostSep 22, 2003 at 1:59PM
Sajjman you said: "That was REALITY to them, they hadnt seen anything else". Do you or anyone else see this as an example to the theroy that consiousness forms reality and without it there wouldn't be one?
Ken WaisSep 22, 2003 at 5:29PM
I am amazed by the gullible expressions I read in this forum. Do most of you (not you Bell) really believe that these bros are such artists that won't be affected by real life concerns like making another blockbuster movie with philosophic overtones?
I can kinda see this. This is one the few sci-fi movies that at least have a philosophic point to it. Actually, 1984, Richie Burtons last film, I believe is one of the best in this gendre. And many a praise to John Hurt for role as Winston. There was a hellish, mind-controlling world brought to the screen that rivals this film. Winston would be Neo, and his companion Trinity. But this film explores we as human beings seek to make a society that is perfect by manipulating its members. Actually, surprised no one in this discussion has made the comparison in detail. Burton is fantastic in this film. He's the Architect of the Matrix. He befriends and then destroys Winston, the rebel. But, before he does he makes him apart of the perfect world Big Brother has made. Of course, Big Brother is the Matrix.
Ken WaisSep 22, 2003 at 7:48PM
Actually my English in the last post was so bad, I thought I should try to clear it up and describe my take in modern 21st English:
See my man, this Neo has gotta git a jojo before the cat that dug that he knows during those two black and white ticks of the Matrie clock that some the other lame has slid in and is diggin to phase him by coppin' the nab, while he cops on the hame, so he shoots to the L.Aa and grabs a boot for this jammer then lays a hip thing on Zion, and digs this chick, whose green is long enough for him to flash bad make on this cat Smith. It all makes Ne' sweet, ..he's outta the Trix, But, he still didn't cop his queen but his Jeans are clean...end of this super-hip story.
Now I feel better, having made it this clear.
bellSep 23, 2003 at 11:05AM
ken i mentioned the similarities, earlier in the thread between 1984 and The Matrix. Variations on a theme as i like to say, you can include the like of neoromancer, brave new world, demon seed, logons run or even the recent equalibrium (though admittedly this borrowed heavely from the former!). The main protaganists wish to subvert a utilaterian/police or military state, capitalism or even a supposed utopian society, its all about fighting against control for a percieved freedom...we ca philosiphically debate what freedon actually is or means indefinately, as it is all about perspective and conditioning!
Spoon BoySep 23, 2003 at 8:34PM
Ken Wais says:
I am amazed by the gullible expressions I read in this forum. Do most of you (not you Bell) really believe that these bros are such artists that won't be affected by real life concerns like making another blockbuster movie with philosophic overtones?
Not necessarily. We've seen it before. But focusing on such prediction strikes me as a worthless deviation from the true purpose of analyzing the piece of work itself for what it is. We might as well talk about Larry's wardrobe.
Enjoy now, complain later.
Ken WaisSep 24, 2003 at 3:16AM
Larry's wardroe? Who may ask is Larry? Oh, you mean Larry Wach.
So, no one should 'focus' on the underlying real substance of this thing? We should simply discuss it for its philo' content, you're saying. That's seems so anti-demo to me. Hell, I'll talk about Rembrandt's lack of knowledge outside art if such forum existed. Spoon Boy don't get me wrong here, I am not saying that resent your remark, but that all aspects of this movie should discussed.
Bell, I didn't know you had post a comment about 1984 vs the Matrix sorry. If there is a real philo' issue in the Matrix it just that: What is freedom? Can we be free in a social world. Aren't we by nesscarily destined to give up some of our freedom? But how far does it go? Our minds are our private area, we feel. Yet in the Matrix even that is invaded. In fact, it is our minds that our the target of the AI that assails flesh and blood. Yet, being an arrogant species, we watch movies that tell us..oh we can overcome even mental invasions, we'll conquer all things, we'll... why we'll ohh it's too disgusting....
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 24, 2003 at 5:21AM
Ken, what do you want do to?
Matrix has philosophical tones for the little man. Not everybody knows of Platos cave, so Matrix is a nice way to introduce someone to this theory. Matrix leads you to think about the film and this is a good thing in our consume-and-forget society. We are just victims of this think-attack.
To set it right: I want to Wachowskies to be unaffected by real life and i hope for a original and outstanding triology. On the other hand i know more and more i will be disappointed in this aspect. I will enjoy Revolutions for its action and some nice twists, but in the end Matrix won't be a timeless masterpiece. Wait ... not exactly. Matrix 1 was a milestone and will ever be, but Reloaded and Revolutions are *just* sequels, which are not on the same level as Matrix 1. Star Wars managed this, but Star Wars is a very different movie (its a fairy tale, not intelectual-action).
bellSep 24, 2003 at 7:13AM
check this out http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/ , there a scene in which a blindfolded neo (in the zion) takes the full force of an explosion and seems to absorb it... MWM must be, im so exited at the prospect of watchoing this film, bring it on...
GhostSep 24, 2003 at 10:51AM
Did anyone happen to notice the names of the spots: HELP, POWER, CONTROLL.
Intersesting......
Spoon BoySep 24, 2003 at 2:52PM
Ken says,
So, no one should 'focus' on the underlying real substance of this thing? We should simply discuss it for its philo' content, you're saying. That's seems so anti-demo to me. Hell, I'll talk about Rembrandt's lack of knowledge outside art if such forum existed.
That's the thing. I don't consider early predictions of the W's financial aspirations as the real substance of the Matrix @ all. That would be like opening a forum discussing Einstein's Quantum Theory, and focusing on the fact that Al wore different colored socks.
Regarding the Cave, are you familiar with the Twilight Zone's fifth season episode The Old Man In The Cave? If you're familiar with both, I'd be interested to hear your comparisons of the two.
The ending of TOMITC is not unlike something the Wachowski's would do today.
It was written by Rod Serling, the master himself. I'm confident he would've been a huge Matrix fan.
bellSep 25, 2003 at 12:56PM
do you suppose when we see smith in an inflamed guise, that is neo seeing the zion code? dont seem to be able to get help! to run, anything extra in that tv spot, you budding philospher's :)
GhostSep 25, 2003 at 2:02PM
Everyone's got to check out the new photos @ http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/
bellSep 25, 2003 at 2:19PM
Ghost says:
Everyone's got to check out the new photos @ http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/
good are'nt they just printed some of a few minutes ago... what does it all mean? does'nt there seem to be to many things mentioned in the xzaust post appearing in the tv spots, i think it could be closer to the plot that i first thought!
GhostSep 25, 2003 at 2:44PM
Are those kids with Link in the Subway the same kids with Link in M2?
Ken WaisSep 25, 2003 at 6:02PM
Spoon boy, I remember this episode from my childhold dimly. It has biblical overtones. As Serling (a visonary writer for sure) often used such ideas in his work. It has the elements of the biblical story of Genesis. God as a computer, that we reject and fall form grace certainly harkens back to Genesis doesn't. But, are asking to contrast this with what has been said earlier by other respondents to this forum about the relativistic nature of someone from leaving our reality and returning to alert us to the fact of a larger existence? This relativism also works in the reverse. Those whom claim there is a smaller, more certain existence at lower level of reality. In fact, they claim (of course those dam physicist again, I am speaking of), that the macroscopic world is not as real as the microscopic one. But, this all if taken too far, gets to an indefinite perspective. It implies there is some perceiver that has authoritative knowledge that whether we accept it or not is right! The Architect in The Matrix. It also gets us involved in epistemologic ?s like: can we share knowledge if we are so far removed from each other? So, a being with the processing power of 10*45 possible states can't possibly interface with beings like us at 10*14, we simply can't encompass all 'it' knows. I think this is again, the aspect these ideas imply. We reject what we can't understand. Though this is irrational. But, the deeper ? is can we even communicate. We can't have a dialogue with ants. The nature of knowing is so disparate. I wonder if this epistemologic issue will be explored in the revolutions? Perhaps I'm all wrong in this analysis.
I want to put the quietus to this issue of my faulting the Wachs about the monetary aims. I think you were implying that my comments were irrevelant. This is not true. If I started writing about the Matrix and then brought up the production of say ice cream that would be inappropiate for this forum. but, my discussing the non-artistic aspects of the Matrix is not irrelevant but perhaps not appropiate to the spirit of this forum. And in deference to you and other participants, I will refrain from anymore comments about the money-minded intentions of the Wach bros.
ctm3Sep 26, 2003 at 2:39AM
Any thoughts on the new movie trailer about the green code shot? Wonder whos in the chair... I see Smith standing now.
bellsSep 26, 2003 at 6:26AM
cmt3, i would say that it is neo is the chair, perhaps focusing his power, all the smiths in that scene seem to be confused. Or it could be when neo manifest's himself back into the matrix to have the final face off with smith, via the giant machine's in mainframe... as i assume once neo has convinced the giant machine that only he can destroy smith, the machine will have to jack neo back into the matrix... maybe! :)
bellsSep 26, 2003 at 7:28AM
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/
final revolutions trailer online now!
spoiler...................
the enflamed smith face, is what neo see's when he looks at bane, is this neo seeing bane in Zion code? This film look's impressive, more so than reloaded, visually...
GhostSep 26, 2003 at 9:47AM
I think someone has to write Jason to get that post off of the thread.
Siddarta GouthamaSep 26, 2003 at 10:13AM
Hi, I'm back...
The trailer is magnificent, terrific and spectacular. On the action side, no worries I guess. However, I'm a bit afraid for the philosophical side, but anyways we'll enjoy it, won't we?
cmt3, i would say that it is neo is the chair,
it is a rather common chair, common as in the Oracle's kitchen. Hence, I think that the Smiths are watching how the oracle program is puddinged to a new Smith, the one that is laughing rigorously in the trailer with the orange cupboards of the Oracle's kitchen at the back.
Neo has a new vision now... he sees the "real world" in flame vision.
It sure is interesting and challenging to fry our brains on several aspects of the trailer.
bellsSep 26, 2003 at 10:40AM
what i want from Revolutions, let me think! refreshing on many aspects of the matrix we have discussed...
---------------------------------------------
potential Spoiler!
---------------------------------------------
What is the significance of...
LOOP?
101?
303?
how did neo see trins death, when he was in zion?
is the phone booth theory true?
how does the architect fortell the future?
are neo and co stuck in a mobius time loop?
is zion part of the construct?
is trinity neo's mother?
is persophone neo's mother?
is merovingian a previous one?
is the train man a previous one?
is morpheus evil?
are the machines trying to attain quantum consciosness?
is the oracle surving her own interests above the humans?
are the machines the ones who are trapped, is neo and all the humans actually machines. and the humans are outside looking in. is neo a machine that has been programmed to believe he is human?
are smith and neo doubles, ying and yang, alpha and omega?
is smith indeed the anomoly, or at least is the destructive result of the anomolies emrgance?
Admittedly i feel i know the answer to many of these questions, and im sure the w's will deliver...
opinions? what are you expecting...hoping for? :)
bellsSep 26, 2003 at 10:44AM
Siddarta welcome back... hope life has been good to you, just intime for the impending release of Reloaded on DVD...
Ghost says:
I think someone has to write Jason to get that post off of the thread.
presume you mean the lengthy post, i did'nt care to read it!
Siddarta GouthamaSep 26, 2003 at 11:48AM
right before Neo gets hit by the crazy subway dude, you see a man and a woman. The man is the one that was brought away in M2 right befor Morph, Trin and Neo get to Merv.
I'm not sure what the story is around that guy. Obviously, Neo noticed him in M2.
bellSep 26, 2003 at 12:26PM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
right before Neo gets hit by the crazy subway dude, you see a man and a woman. The man is the one that was brought away in M2 right befor Morph, Trin and Neo get to Merv.
I'm not sure what the story is around that guy. Obviously, Neo noticed him in M2.
ah interesting, the child seems to hold some significance of all the rumours ive heard are correct, presumeably they are either the parents of the child or the guardians ??? did neo notice something different in reloaded when he caught sight of that man, perhaps his code or was he human? notably the couple and the children are of the same ethic origin as most of the zionist's perhaps there is something in that?
TedSep 26, 2003 at 2:50PM
I haven't been here in a while... but the trailer has me a bit excited. I haven't seen this mentioned before. In the Revolutions theatrical trailer, when Neo is sitting next to Trinity blindfolded in a ship. There's a significant wound above above the blindfold - around his eyebrows - across his forehead. Do you suppose that Neo might have lost his eyes? The Merovingian appears to be asking for the Oracle's eyes.
bellSep 26, 2003 at 3:19PM
not sure ted, but ive heard that bane is supposed to be responsible for neo's injuries... as a result of a confrontation between the two... significance of the eye's is interesting will have to mull it over! :)
GhostSep 26, 2003 at 4:03PM
I've only seen one trailer and the one thing i noticed was it gave an uneasy undertone that seemed to suggest that Trinity is evil.
I don't know? Did anyone else pick up on that?
Ken WaisSep 26, 2003 at 5:09PM
spoonie baby, I am posting things that have nothing to do with the spirit of this site. Did you I mean did you dig this guy with letter chain msg?
Anyway Bell those first two numbers are palindromes. Palies signify unity at the end and beginning of an integer set. Construct? What? I feel like Woody Allen so what's going on here. Who Zion and Neo quantum theory? what, I mean are yers all masuganas of what huh?
Please leave quantum mech's outta this. It only applies to the sub-atomic world and is governed by statistical mechanics anyway. NO quantum event could ever figure into the Matrix. I mean if we're talking about a number without a numerical name having statistical properties such that obey Schroidinger wave equation and act in unison to create unpredictable events like spontaneous radio decay okay, but this is more irrelevant than my comments, right Spoon boy, my man?
Too be even more of bad ass, I don't see, vector spaces in a matrix alegbra that creates a large system of communative groups creating a system ...that hey wait a minute ...okay never mind....
Ken WaisSep 26, 2003 at 5:27PM
You know I could see a math matrix that mirrors this film.
First we have real matrix where mxn is any collection of objects: people. a scalar goes thru say: a such that a(mxn) makes them in a state p. The scalar is communitative, associative, and distributive such that a(mxn) is am x an and mxn=nxm. Any m and n in system P has a property such that m+n+c = (m+n)+c=m+(n+c). All elements of this Matrix have an identity matrix, I such that I=n+o=m+o. Then we've group a formal group. Even if we transpose this group and make MXN*i, that is all the rows exchanged with the columns, the scalars would keep it a consistent. This is interesting and this could be seen to be what these guys are saying in linear alegbra. And the only one that knows and is outside the group is the Architect that designed the Matrix...Yeah I can see this..in linear alegbra. But, what would be the thing that destroys this perfection. What wouild represent the inoperable element like 0/0? Every commune group would pair off with other groups by the determinant rule for Aij, where i and j equal the row and column of the matrix Aij=xi-xj. So, people inside wouldn't know that they are just a millions and millions of matrix pairings. This is getting really interesting. But there would have to be an Identity Matrix.....
GhostSep 26, 2003 at 5:29PM
OOOOooooh, Big Words.
Just Kiddin.
So what's up with Evil Trin.
Ken WaisSep 26, 2003 at 10:22PM
Yes, the determinant would have to be a some disturbance in the uniform matrix that made all the perfection of the scalars go awry. It just couldn't be a making it bigger by a factor of say 200 billion, but something imperfect. Isn't this what the metaphysical math meaning of this picture is? Right? Neo comes to the Architect and literally destroys the group theory that he's created. In that all reality is destroyed. I gotta stop dropping these trans and shooting heroin...and get back to real math.
VictorSep 26, 2003 at 10:43PM
If you have scrolled down this far in the conversation then surprise! - this link will lead you to the promise land of Reloaded. Reload.
http://mastermindmag.com/mag/intro.htm
Ken WaisSep 26, 2003 at 10:46PM
so, lets say we have a square matrix of 200 billion x 200 billion and the implanted dream (the scalar) is that the are all in a perfect world. The so we have a dream call it D(200 billionX200billion) dreams implanted by the Architect. These dreams can go back and forth between cells of the matrix, or in other words they obey alegebraic laws, of communativity, associativity and distributivity. The cells in the Matrix are unaware they are in a Matrix, only the Architect knows this by imputing scalars to it. What could destroy the perfection of this uniform structure? Nothing. Unless somehow so element at x=100,000ij didn't work and the factors the relate it to every other factor would fall like a house of cards. But, the Architect could destroy this system and make a new one....ya know this movie is making more sense all the time....
MarkSep 27, 2003 at 12:05AM
Get a life, you losers. Who isn't excited by the new Matrix installment, but damn, go out and get some sun.
TazmasterSep 27, 2003 at 1:36AM
I would get some sun, but that darned scorched sky keeps me perpetualy pale. LOL! Mark, I don't know what attracted you to this site in the first place, but this is a place for conjecture and discussion about the Matrix trilogy and what the W's are trying to say with all the clues they have given us. At least that's my view of what this site is all about. For you to come here and belittle us for our efforts is somewhat surprising. But, maybe you were just joking...
JamesSep 27, 2003 at 9:48AM
I think this interesting usenet post confirms the whole Star Wars sequel thing was planned from the start:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.azure.913
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 27, 2003 at 11:22AM
Could Neo finally fulfill the prophecy? He comes to this dark-big-voice thing, which seems to be the heart/brain of the machines or in other words ... the source? So the One reaches the source in the real world to save the day.
CarolynSep 28, 2003 at 4:41AM
Spoon Boy, I'm glad you're still around.
At the end of the new trailer, (ultra high resolution trailers are fun) there is a shot of the clear blue sky.
Sometimes I wish I had abstained from watching the trailers and tv spots because then it would be so much more of a good thing.
Oh, and 39 days remaining...
KaijimaSep 29, 2003 at 1:12AM
Re: That Mark guy. Bang! The Cult of Turn Off Your Computer has struck again!
http://web.archive.org/web/20021112214711/
http://www.altsense.net/library/factual/
i_have_a_life.html
bellSep 29, 2003 at 9:38AM
ken rhettorical questions mate, though i intended it to draw a similar respnce from those who post here as i was interested to know what they were expecting from revoltutions. im no mathematician or physicist so most of what you said, terms used etc i am unfamiliar with. Psychology, sociology and english are what i did at uni... though what i was refering to with regards to quantum consciousness was the machines attaining a greater understanding of human nature (through neo's experiance) and in a sense attained a soul, imagination... to move beyound mathematical thinking!
bellSep 29, 2003 at 9:39AM
ghost not sure what you are refering to with regards to trin being evil can you elaborate please!
CarolynSep 29, 2003 at 3:06PM
Ha, I'm watching Reloaded again. Neo says, "A lot more, he's found some way to copy himself..."
ctrl C man, ctrl C...
what's everyone here going to do when there's nothing left to analyize?
just wondering.
ghostSep 29, 2003 at 4:11PM
BELL: I'm not really sure be becasue i can't d/load the trailers. I saw the spot on T.V. and it said somthing about "you won't know who's on your side" or somthing like that and then it had a picture of Trin. I was think you guys could elaborate for me.
Another thing i was working on is the growing possibility that the machines have givin Neo the powers, not Neo has recieved them because he is the Anomoly. I'm starting to think Smith is the anomoly and that Neo is the machine's safegard in each version against the anomoly of a rebal program or virus.
ghostSep 29, 2003 at 4:15PM
Carolyn: "What's everyone here going to do when there's nothing left to analyize?"
Carolyn at that point i'll analize why there's nothing left to analize and why i'm still analyzing it.
Siddarta GouthamaSep 30, 2003 at 7:26AM
I don't know what you think about it, but I'm quite disappointed in the new trailer in that it is giving too much information to us. I mean, we have been analyzing hypothesizing around these movies for months and the trailer now just gives all the information away.
For those who haven't seen it yet... SPOILERS!!!
The new/old Oracle says that the future of the 2 worlds now depends on Neo or Smith. In other words, the humans and machinds will have to work together, or at least there will be some kind of agreement.
Neo reaches the actual source of the machines, something which is quite novel and would be so much better when no one would have seen it yet.
Neo has a new vision in the "real world". I think that it is inappropriate to give this new sight already away in the trailer.
END SPOILERS!!!
These are just 3 issues, but very important ones that I think a lot of us would rather not have known already...
Am I wrong?
Anyhow, it is a great trailer, it will be a great movie (I hope not only on action but also in philosophy) and I'm looking forward to seeing it.
beza1e1 - MatrixwikiSep 30, 2003 at 8:39AM
You are right, Siddartha, most trailers today tell too much about the movie. The Hulk trailer had all good scenes, so seeing Hulk in the cinema wasn't worth the money anymore. The trailer also points too much to the xzaust theory, we discussed some time ago.
If Revolutions has a significant different story to xzaust, the W's would be the true geniouses of marketing for me. If not Revolutions will just be a nice finale.
ghost: Carolyn at that point i'll analize why there's nothing left to analize and why i'm still analyzing it.
Yes! my man :)
diemkaiSep 30, 2003 at 10:27AM
"The future of the 2 worlds now depending on Neo/Smith or an agreement with the machines"
My first reaction to this outcome is of dissapointment. I would have liked neo's strength to defeat the system and win outright - thats just a pure gut satisfying conclusion.
But, if it does go this way there is a lot of scope for a greater philosophical depth in the finale - whats the point in just crushing the opposition? Neo's journery through the trilogy will have been no less remarkable? his insightfull wisdom which has been growing ever since he first followed the white rabbit will remain the key which unlocked humanity.
diemkaiSep 30, 2003 at 10:40AM
Another thought:
If he is able to strike a deal then he has defeated the system - in one way the machines are not the enemy - its the system created by them that is the enemy.
This is analagous to our real world - we have a system which we created, and it isnt very fair to all human beings - many people fight against this system - to beat this system would not mean slaughtering every human being on earth - to beat the system would be to remove system with wisdom, to strike a new deal between everybody.
diemkaiSep 30, 2003 at 12:11PM
By the way - i dont think there is no need to try and litterally explain things like how Neo sees Trinity falling before it happens:
As we already know "the one" has the ability to control the Matrix as he see's fit. In other words - as Neo's Wisdom grows he has more and more ability to control his destiny i.e. the ability to "shape" his future.
Couple this with Morpheus's quote in the first movie:
"there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
And then you can intepret images like Trinity as Neo "knowing the path". This image is a problem for Neo, he doesnt understand it, and it manifests itself as a nightmare.
Now take the oracles quote in reloaded:
"we can never see passed the choices we do not understand".
Up until the point when Neo actually catches Trinity he did not understand this image - he just knew this formed a moment in his "path" perhaps you could describe it as a metaphorical milestone.
consider the Oracles comment: "you are looking at the world without time now neo"
Now, if you discount time as being the primary driver on a metaphorical "path". Then its not that he understands the image after he has caught her but the exact moment he catches her represents neo understanding how to walk his "path". the milestone in time and understanding are co-incendent. (we could also talk here about "reason" there is a reason for this event......)
Milestones represent the bringing together of knowing and walking the path, almost like a test, each one is there for a reason, once understood neo moves forward to the next step on his inner journey.
thats the way i look at it anyway - and I love it!
CarolynSep 30, 2003 at 12:13PM
Nice. :)
I wasn't trying to be evil or demean the incredible amount of intelligence and perception floating around here, I was just curious. Good answer, I love it.
and, 36 days left.
I'm taking people to see it for free, anyone want to go?
GhostSep 30, 2003 at 6:03PM
You see, now that's a worth while charity that I could get involved in. Helping those who are "Matrix Deprived" and “Developmentally Matrix Disabled”. Carolyn I’m proud to see that you take action in your community by helping those less fortunate then yourself. :)
CarolynSep 30, 2003 at 6:03PM
Siddarta Gouthama,
I'm not really sure if you're right or not. I remember think ing the same thing about the Reloaded trailers, but it turned out that they only showed bits from the beginning of the movie. And since the movie will be at least three hours long, (if it wasn't, I'd be very disappointed), I think that there is a lot that hasn't been given away. And we know that all of the scenes will be good, not like the hulk. So even with the stuff that they've "given away," there will still be some surprises.
cg
CarolynOct 01, 2003 at 4:34PM
Ghost, I try.
cg
GhostOct 01, 2003 at 4:45PM
You know, at this point I think our theories should center on pondering why Smith is such an integral part to this story. Still no one has commented on the idea I proposed above.
Ken WaisOct 01, 2003 at 5:16PM
Bell, and you seemed to be the most tolerant respondent in this group, I am a mathematician and I am sorry if some of my post were out-of-the-way. I forget this an English forum, and Americans are very forward. I will not post here again. I must say this: the Matrix is an interesting film. I considered it shallow and without real philosophic content. But, in the guy Kottke, whose real German name, is Kot-kuh, but because he's and American, he doesn't know it, wow, I actually thought somebody was using a Javascript prog to make me feel like, when I wrote on this site, there was ....delay.....okay guys.
I have not looked at any m-3 clips.
I just wanna ask all english speaking people out there.... what can this film improve upon.
Can it lead to an age of 21st films that explore humanity engulfing it's creations?
In 2010 what will the Matrix film be? Most of my math friends think this a site for fools and I argue against them. I feel that we are being 'elite', and that's why people in math have gotten such a horrible rep. Bell, I'm speaking to you directly now.
Okay no more math allegorical examples. I feel my analogical examples have brought disregard upon me than what is the metaphor.....I can't think of it....A blond Swedish girl in love with a Moor in Shakesperare? Is that right. Though, I would say the blond maid, thou must surely believe, even though the blackmoor is of thy devil , truly thine matrix and his One is true...this noble gents, I wouldst say....wouldst I not?
ctm3Oct 01, 2003 at 5:30PM
"Another thing i was working on is the growing possibility that the machines have givin Neo the powers, not Neo has recieved them because he is the Anomoly. I'm starting to think Smith is the anomoly and that Neo is the machine's safegard in each version against the anomoly of a rebal program or virus."
From the trailers, Neo is going to be plugged in directly (needle in the back of the head) at the godlike machine. So it does lead to believe that he will be working in concert with with the AI and he is now out of the matrix. And since he can close his eyes and take out a few thousand sentinals with his lightning bolt fingers maybe he knows that he is not part of the matrix, but part of the machines that created it. He is just a machine wired to the AI or he is a human that is able to do so by design.
With the high res trailer, you can see more detail in the green scene. There are cubbords and chairs that could be of the Oracles apartment so the earlier comment on it being the scene where she is being taken over by smith seems right.
My guess at the white room with 'Mobius' was wrong. It's clearly 'Mobil Ave' at the train station. Ah well.
In this scene there is the bum looking guy (trainman/merovingian's henchman?) who punches neo to the wall. Along with the 'kid' and a couple of characters we havent seen before (man carrying something and native american woman). This scene will probably be a cool one reminicent of M1 that has some interesting dialog (I hope).
Check out all those weapons on the wall in the fight on the ceiling shot. Its like a gun store. (reminded me M1 in the construct).
Yes that one TV spot makes trinity seem like she's bad, but theres nothing to really go on except the editing of it.
Don't know whats going to happen with the Merovingian and Persephone. Couldnt decipher anything here, except theres another woman in a red dress that looks similar from above. I hope thats black underwear I'm seeing or we'll have to change the rating on this movie :)
The last shot with the blue sky, probably the most important. Shows the moon. The ship is venting some smoke, but it could be dirt. It trails a path like an arch, so it could be flying out of the earth (zion) and the down again.
As for what to analyze after there is nothing to analyze well, ill just remove the bookmark! :)
Siddarta GouthamaOct 02, 2003 at 2:20AM
Another thing i was working on is the growing possibility that the machines have givin Neo the powers, not Neo has recieved them because he is the Anomoly. I'm starting to think Smith is the anomoly and that Neo is the machine's safegard in each version against the anomoly of a rebal program or virus."
I think I could agree with this hypothesis.
With the high res trailer, you can see more detail in the green scene. There are cubbords and chairs that could be of the Oracles apartment so the earlier comment on it being the scene where she is being taken over by smith seems right.
Indeed, why else would Smith be laughing in the Oracle's kitchen? You can see very clearly the chairs and so on in the matrix code.
couple of characters we havent seen before (man carrying something and native american woman
Actually, the ma carrying something is the guy that was lead away in Merv's restaurant the moment that Morph Trin and Neo come in. Neo is the only one who has seen him.
I'm not really sure what to think about the bleu sky. Are they hovering above the scorched-sky- clouds?
diemkaiOct 02, 2003 at 5:17AM
my thoughts on Smith then:
In my opinion Neo is totally human and is the anomoly - Smith is a program but is becoming more "humanised" throughout the adventure. The path neo is following is shaping the matrix around himself, this is having the greatest effect on smith. i will try and explain:
I think maybe the part of neo that ws copied or printed onto smith in M1 was neo taking the opportunity to "shed" some "dirty" or evil part human code while destroying smith, (like the part of the code the architect speaks of inherent in every human being).
This could make sense because Neo would actually be taking the opportunity to send this part of the code back to the source with smith.
(The obvious metaphor here is Neo being a hacker)
In effect by the end of of the M1 Neo had taken a step towards the purest kind of thought.
Instead of returning to the source Smith thrived on this new part of the code - combine his original programme single minded, powerfull, destructive, bounty hunter with the human code Neo didn't want (I expect this would include ego, envy, greed) then you have a total meglomaniac.
The reason why Smith his so important is because he is basically Neo's "alter-ego". This idea would work in some ways with Neo not just blasting everything away at the end of M3 (as posted above). If he is able to make an agreement with Smith to end the inprosonment of mankind he is actually "taming" or even winning over this bad side. (metophorically HIS bad side or even the "DARK SIDE" of humanity)
gonna stop now - i could get too carried away with this one. I am sure this as been discussed before - I've not read all the postings from the previous thread and most things seem to be covered.
GhostOct 02, 2003 at 3:25PM
Yes but back to the original Question: ( The W's will take Smith/Neo deeper then that ) Thier interactions thus far have shown a rising peak to a climax meeting. But the Meaning is what i'm looking for! I know that the third film's plot will rest in the hands of the Neo/Smith relationship and i'm determined to find the twist, turns, and tricks behind it before the film comes out.
CarolynOct 02, 2003 at 5:27PM
Ghost, why would you want do that? To use a cliche, It'd be like knowing all the presents you're going to get for christmas before you open them. I am trying not to find out anymore so that my holiday won't be ruined. (even though I still have classes that day, it is still a lovely lovely holiday.)
:)
ghostOct 02, 2003 at 6:01PM
But to speculate what your presents are isn't knowing what they are. I'm not actually gonna jump Reeves at gun point and demand info. I mean it's just like smelling cookies - Yeah the best part is taking a big bite of a fresh batch of chocolate cookies but it's also so great to smell them being made and think about how good they’ll be.
I would get soooo much pleasure out of going to the movie and seeing one of the crazy theories I came up with (or even discussed), come to life in front of me. Also it's alluring and really fun to sit and contemplate abstract endings to one of the best movies of our century.
So to me if I go and I think I know and I’m wrong - that's awesome the W’s blew my mind.
If I go and I think I know and I’m right - that's even more mind blowing...
THATS ONE OF THE REASONS I STOPPED WRITING ON THIS THREAD. WE STOPPED DOING THAT.
CarolynOct 02, 2003 at 9:56PM
ahh, I see.
but i'm still all up for waiting for it.
to each his own
Siddarta GouthamaOct 03, 2003 at 2:35AM
I know what you mean ghost. The depth of this thread declined sometimes a lot, so I stopped too.
There was nothing new anymore.
That said, I don't think that we will find out the true answer to your questions, perhaps not even after revolutions. But still, let's try shall we?
To me, the trilogy is getting more and more weird, knowing the big finale between SMith/Neo. In fact, things have been blown up this much that I don't really get the idea of "the One" anymore...
Thinking about M1 and M2 and seeing the M3 trailer has gradually changed the angle that I've been looking these films from. We can talk about 1. finding the path (M1) 2. making choices (M2) and 3.??? .... but .... after all this I think the basic question is:
WHO IS THE ONE???
If you would write a history book of the Matrix, you could state that the One nr. 6 "was that guy that screwed it up big time"
After all, the path of the One 6 was/is not that of Salvation, but from the beginning it was a path that has had enormous repercussions, because it is by the One 6 that Mr. Smith has got this new power of total disintegration of the Matrix. Let's face it, it's Neo's fault that things have gone way out of proportions. It's a total mess... but the One 6 could still save the day, I don't know...
It really makes you wonder about the real purpose of the Trilogy, doesn't it?
I guess the next philosophical question is: "Why do things happen as they happen, even when everything seems to be going wrong"?
In that scope, you might want to read "The Discovery of Heaven" by Harry Mullish. Things happen for a certain reason.
For the moment, I don't think that anyone of us is seeing that reason in this Trilogy. Who is?
Siddarta GouthamaOct 03, 2003 at 4:07AM
Spoon Boy may be right after all with one of his hypothesis that we're in the middle of a computer game... no purpose whatsoever
diemkaiOct 03, 2003 at 4:33AM
Ghost - I agree that the plot will be taken deeper that that, it would be difficult (but fun!) to guess the details correctly.
I Mean, I enjoy following the simple Phillosophy through the movies, its actually not really burried that deep as we all know, its just interesting because you just get to the same answer that you can arrive at when looking at philoshopy anywhere, you can find insightfull and interesting ways of looking at concoiusness/humanity/society but the same question can always be asked - WHY? Whats the underlying meaning beyond all this fantastic stuff.
Anyway - asking the Why of the matrix is abstract - but fun. I've read some good posts about the whole thing being a system to create, assess, perfect AI, that is kind of interesting as an Uber-theory.
But asking the WHY is similar to asking what happened before the big bang!
A String / M-theory book I read the universe has either 11 or 27 dimensions. Perhaps the matrix is a 4 dimensional mind "prison" created in the corner of the multi-dimensional universe. Maybe its real prison thats why we are such a nasty bunch! or maybe its just like a Television set entertaining the inhabitants in the main portion of the universe.
bellOct 03, 2003 at 9:21AM
firstly ken, dont take offence if that is the case (may be misinterpreting your last post), your input to these discussions has interested me greatly. Though admittedly as i am not familiar with your selected field of expertease i dont fully understand some of your termonology, as i should'nt be able to... there is room for everyone on this thread, if i was making little sense regarding specific information i have attained in a specific field i would prefer if the person i was comunicating with told me rather than pretend to know what i was talking about... :)
bellOct 03, 2003 at 9:34AM
ken says, Can it lead to an age of 21st films that explore humanity engulfing it's creations?
i like to think so, i like to think that i always see the bigger picture, what i see the matrix is the potential of what is to come post matrix, admittedly as a film, narratively it is weak at times... though it is only half a film and judgement must surely be reserved until the final part has been viewed. But my point is that the medium (cinema!) is heading in a direction i like with films like the matrix and donnie darko(to a lesser extent) as they are exploring idea's and themes that respond to, intelligent cinema is rare. you can critise reloaded for its cgi at time eg the burely brawl, but what i see is a new exciting direction that cinema is taking where nothing is impossible, if you imagine it it can manifest oitself on celuloid. in ten years times i may see something similar in theme and feel as the burley brawl and it will be so photo realistic it will seem real, but what i will say to my self when i see it is that wow, reloaded started this off, it may look dated now but reloaded pushed the envolope all those years ago...
... i think it is a little melodramatic to say that you wont post anymore, this is an open forum of dicussion all surely are welcome... though if people are fed up with listening to me contact feel free to have a go :)
bellOct 03, 2003 at 9:48AM
Ghost says:
Yes but back to the original Question: ( The W's will take Smith/Neo deeper then that ) Thier interactions thus far have shown a rising peak to a climax meeting. But the Meaning is what i'm looking for! I know that the third film's plot will rest in the hands of the Neo/Smith relationship and i'm determined to find the twist, turns, and tricks behind it before the film comes out.
i still beleive smith and neo to be connected, neo is indeed the anomoly, but so is smith, smith is the destructive side of neo, alpha omega, ying and yang... this occured as im sure everyone know's when smith was destroyed by neo. smith states as we all know than something of neo compied onto him. i suspect neither neo can destroy smith, or smith destroy neo... it will end i suspect where neo allows smith to assimlitae him... knowing this will be the only way to destroy smith...
diemkaiOct 03, 2003 at 10:41AM
I don’t believe human beings are inherently evil, I strongly disagree with the architect on this issue (I think neo also disagrees with him on this too)
However, there is no doubt that our system (in particular in the late 20th century) has the effect of producing society in which these negative emotions are abundant. “Some consider this the peak of our civilisation” – I do not, it depends on what you use as performance indicators!
I think human beings have the potential to make a journey analogous to Neo’s. Its difficult to find the right words to explain the goal of this journey – I guess enlightenment (although I don’t mean religious), balance and harmony would be appropriate for starters.
Take it a step further and you can apply this not only to individuals but to society in general.
The uber-meaning or the “why” of the trilogy may be taken as the same why we can ask of society – why are we so “unbalanced”?, are we inherently evil?, why can we not move forward when there is something fundamentally wrong with the world the way is?
Can we as a conscious collective society move away from the notions of wickedness, evil, ego’s etc? (I think yes, why not)
Neo has done so in the Smith incident at the end of M1 but this is not the end of it! its coming back to haunt him (the power of smith in the M3 clips supports this), therefore in order to achieve true balance he must strike a deal with this negative power, a revolution if you like!
The “driver” emotion for all of this can be best defined by the word “hope”, which the architect uses at the pivotal moment of one of neo’s biggest steps. Hope is not a human delusion, but the journey to the goal is clearly complex.
I don’t think that if neo prints his negative code onto Smith he (Neo) would becomes less human, because these are not emotions which have to be associated with human beings, after all we have a choice don’t we?
(Or perhaps they are real human emotions but the enlightenment is an “emotional evolution”.
If the final part of the trilogy does imply anything like this then its pretty profound stuff!
GhostOct 03, 2003 at 12:37PM
That's it!!!! The machines force Neo to jack in with them to destroy Smith each version. By doing this Neo then is assimilated to futher the machines.
diemkaiOct 03, 2003 at 12:46PM
Perhaps the intention is to ask the following question?
How far do we have to evolve (even on an emotional level) before we would call our race something other than human?
GhostOct 03, 2003 at 1:30PM
unfortunatly if there are only those who are evolved they will call themselfs Human. If the evolved are the minority they will be called somthing else.
Spoon BoyOct 03, 2003 at 6:39PM
For centuries, mankind waited for a Messiah. A redeemer. A savior. The One. They prophesied, speculated, predicted, and hoped.
As history unfolded, several people have walked the planet who could arguably fit the bill for this role. Christ, Buddha, and so forth. Yet for some reason there has never been a worldwide concensus as to who that One is.
There are also those who are still waiting for the One to show himself. The Jews.
There are others who believe there is no such thing as the One. The Atheists.
And then there are those who believe that it is impossible to prove there is a One, even if he were to hypothetically reveal himself. The Agnostics.
It's fascinating to see our own human race's theological segmentation directly reflected in this Matrix discussion. To conceive a piece of fiction which itself provokes such rich analysis is one of the highest creative achievements mankind has ever produced.
Is it too late to nominate the Wbros as co-governors of California?
NumerologyFanOct 04, 2003 at 3:02AM
Spoon boy says Is it too late to nominate the Wbros as co-governors of California?
ha ha ha :P excelent idea , spoonboy. They would better in Chicago! ;) then you would see all the police dressed agent-like : You must say to your children "You see one police -> Run, Run your ass off".
Ken WaisOct 04, 2003 at 2:43PM
Okay Bell, I think I will have 'a go' as you guys across the ocean say. Yes, I agree the Matrix may be a forerunner to a better of filmmaking. Maybe it's my ego that made me reticient to participant in this forum after being soundly trounced for criticize it on grounds of money-lucre and certain to make sequels, and trying to teach 1st course in linear algebra about its implications...maybe that was it.
It will be a great irony that in 50 years of so, when there 3d processors (but quantum processing machines, they'll take another 100 years or so) that has unlimited power to create direct images to our minds via headgear, we should be able to go to a theater and get a ticket, sit down in a comfortable chair with our lovers and experience in 3d, a film in which WE participant and develop the preset story as it unfolds. When we're full of this experience, we leave the theater and go home to an interconnected forum like this, then discuss our 'personal' experience of the film. At least this what the AI tech literature I've been reading is predicting. We need a processor that so fast though to do this, you shouldn't expect it before 2050 to 2080, and most of us will be dead (like me) or very old. Dimanche as the French say. What will 'they' think of us? They'll probably laugh at how primitive our technology was now. Some kid will say to his Mom...I like that old 'matrix movie', as she laughs at her antique loving son inclinations. The irony? The very film which is predicated on a AI destruction is actually a vehicle to its advancement.
GhostOct 04, 2003 at 6:02PM
Mabey
Spoon BoyOct 04, 2003 at 7:24PM
They would better in Chicago!
Speaking of which...
GO CUBBIES!!!
SajjmanOct 04, 2003 at 10:12PM
diemkai ;
what you've written here is utterly interesting and well thought out and i think that the possible ending that Bell wrote (smith assimilating neo ) could be very possible since im an dualist and therefor i think that you cant destroy smith without destroying neo, if u believe that smith is neo's alter ego/dark side/etc. If smith would be Hate and neo Love (Hate - Love opposite emotions) then you wouldnt know what Love is if you didnt have Hate to compare to, so you can only change the concentration of each side but you cant remove one of them while having the other side left, they're bound to eachother, so to destroy smith neo has to become smith and smith has to become neo through the assmiliation he has now posessed as a "power".
NumerologyFanOct 05, 2003 at 4:25AM
Hey, just a point to theorize:
How is supposed Neo to get OUT of the Matrix when he enter via GodLikeMachine headgear?
You see, when Neo got out first time, he took the pill, and this just took him in such a painfull and disturbing experience of "changing of reality" (or at least, reality viewpoint). AND when he everyday (or it seems so) goes in and out of the Matrix, he needs to answer a someway specially connected-to-his-outer-real-body phone.
But ..., on that last time?
I dont think the deal contemplates the idea of letting go safely the potentialy dangerous and valuable code in this One... or letting him reach another "outer and higher" consciense, giving him even more power.
So, you can see, I am thinking that when Neo asks the GLMchine to plug him into, It is to be the LAST TIME. Neo is not intended to go out to reality ever, and He knows it (Morph "Neo is doing what he believes he must do").
He is going to challenge and destroy *cough*Satan*cough*sorry*cough*Smith*cough* or is going to die trying, BUT he knows this is His Purpose, IT IS THE LAST AND ONLY CHANCE for both races, both worlds (Trinity included), to survive AND THE COST IS HIS "LIFE",so it is He is going to STAY IN FOREVER, whether he wins or lose.
Got it ever?
Kind of liking the drama finalis, Dramatic Heroic End.
:P
PS: Am I seeing the Christian Idea of Jesus asking God to come "here" to save us from Satan*cough*ourselves*cough*, including that he is going to die for? Wondering?
PS2: In rev last trailer, 01:42, -> So MUCH people in red! even a redhead
PS3: TV spot cont 00:25 -> You see, when the Oracle (new?old?)says NEo is in a place between both worlds, He is in a white room. AND in this 00:25 of me, it is the same room, or the same walls, i think. So, counting on my theory about Neo Self Sacrifice, would Trin go (how?) with him to his "exile" to Matrix world forever?
diemkaiOct 06, 2003 at 4:09AM
I think Morpheus gives us an indirect clue:
In the lift on the way to see the oralce in M1 Morpheus says to Neo
"try not to think of it as right or wrong".
As soon as you try and categorise any of these things in the context of a metophorical path you get into difficulties. There is no absolute in the same way that there is no pre-dermination, there is just the path you "know" and the path you ultimately "walk". We know there is a difference between these two and therefore the path we "know" will change as we "walk".
Can you destry Smith without destroying Neo???
Once he prints code onto smith at the end of M1 some may describe Neo as "unbalanced", i dont though, However, I think you could describe his balance as "temporary", in order for him to acheive this temporary balance he has had a negative effect on his surrondings (the potential for a meglomaniac smith to cause havoc) as we know the story is incomplete at the end of M1 - only neo has the "balance" - the global balance and future of the matrix/humantiy/machines are "in limbo" throughout M2 and will be finalised in M3.
Can good exist without evil? not an easy question!
If you have love does that automatically yield jeolousy?
(Neo - Trinity "milestone", Neo - Persephone "milestone")
If we have truth do we need the false to understand what we mean?
(the real world and the matrix)
If we consider extreme "pairings" like this - what do we call the middle ground and what is it like/is it possible to stay there?
Is there and existence in the middle ground?
(If you think about the choice that is given to Neo by the architect then you could consider the most wise response that neo could have given would have been to stand in the centre of the two doors "forever" - just staring at his "maker" - is this an existence?)
SajjmanOct 06, 2003 at 5:19PM
Interesting point there diemkai , the middleground might perhaps be where the oracle is refering that neo is now in a place between two worlds? That about the extremes pairing is just what i was talking about as a dualist u think that the world is build up by there extreme opposites... everything has a opposite? And without the opposite the other side does not exist because then u dont know u have it or u dont feel it because its constant ...
GhostOct 07, 2003 at 2:05PM
Ok I noticed something else.......
When I first saw the part where Smith tries to infect Neo I was under the impression that Neo had fought the BLACK GOO and stopped Smith. But go watch that part again and you will see that Neo doesn’t try to stop the GOO. It stops be itself and Neo nor Smith Know Why.
Check it out and write back if you see it. If I’m right then there is an underlining program that stopped Neo's infection because he is the One.
NumerologyFanOct 07, 2003 at 6:15PM
Ghost !
wow :-o I've never noticed! Who is in control of the Matrix then ? :S :S
CarolynOct 07, 2003 at 11:13PM
ghost,
I just watched that bit again and, even though it seems that all I do is contradict you, I think it lookes more like Neo is just concentrating hard on stopping the "BLACK GOO"...I think he knows exactly what he's doing and how he needs to do it.
Also: One thing I always hated about this forum is that I want to start full on conversations with people and talk to them more. If any of you feel the same way, feel free to add me to your buddy list
AIM: nyloracnidnorg (It's my full name backwards...aren't I the clever one...)
MSM: [email protected] (Aren't I clever, Twice.)
diemkaiOct 08, 2003 at 3:47AM
In my view Neo concentrates and repels the black goo. He is learning all the time! And thats the real beauty of the the first and second films.
Otherwise (if it changes itsefl) this changes the whole way I look a the the trilogy, I really enjoy watching it the way I see it so I hope my this isnt changed by conflicting (who is in control) twists in M3.
diemkaiOct 08, 2003 at 5:50AM
If it goes the way I hope its just a fantastic trilogy which will question our understanding of humanity and society in a way I've never been aware of on screen.
When the themes which I particularly like are followed the movies have the ability crystalise the mind of the viewer in such a profound way that the most fundamental emotion of Hope shines through so powerfully that our appreciation of who/what we are can be looked at with a new perspective.
I am just gonna sit back now and wait for the finale - I am happy with where I think it will end up - a love story with some cool Kung-Fu scenes.
ghostOct 08, 2003 at 1:48PM
Mabey we are all wrong and Smith is a pre-planned piece of the matrix controll systmem in each one of the versions and now the sixth?
GhostOct 08, 2003 at 1:51PM
But about the "BLACK GOO". Lets imagine for a second that i'm 100% right and Neo has no controll over stopping the "GOO". If that was a fact - then what would that lead us to believe?
CarolynOct 08, 2003 at 11:24PM
ghost,
Fate.
diemkaiOct 09, 2003 at 3:32AM
Then it would not be a story about hope. It would be about fear.
Siddarta GouthamaOct 09, 2003 at 5:26AM
Ghost,
just don't let you carry away too much with this hypothesis. It would have huge implications, but I think you're wrong. If you're not I have absolutely no idea what to think about it.
diemkaiOct 09, 2003 at 6:09AM
I agree SG.
I would suggest the following two basic principles are established - you won't be far off:
1) neo is human
2) neo is the one
if you want to find a "meaning" of the films then consider this "neos journey"
Where you interpret it from here is a choice they leave to you.
emsOct 09, 2003 at 10:14AM
how long is matrix revolution be (running time)
Jeremy LozinskyOct 09, 2003 at 12:12PM
neo should get the shit beat out of him for once.then he kick his ass later on in the movie
Jeremy LozinskyOct 09, 2003 at 12:16PM
i say about three hours but itll be kick ass
Scanky_ZebraOct 09, 2003 at 12:18PM
probably three hours
but only creators will no that i wonder if they will tell us or me
Scanky_ZebraOct 09, 2003 at 12:22PM
matrix:revoltion will focking rock its going to be the best
NO Doubt about it...!!!
CarolynOct 12, 2003 at 5:00PM
did everyone leave?
anyway, I found this a awhile ago online, some of you may have already heard it, but if not listen to it because it is awesome. Someone really talented cooked it up and I was super impressed.
http://www.beckhome.net/nelno.mp3
24 days.
PeteOct 13, 2003 at 11:39AM
Well now I have Reloaded on DVD, I like the film better - now I know to expect certain scenes and adjust to the pace of it, it works for me. However, the 'burly brawl' is truly awful. When it switches over from live action to CGI is just so obvious and it really just kills that scene for me. Also, and this is something that was suggested when I saw the film at the cinema, you can spot actors not wearing Hugo Weaving's face - in most of the scenes where there is a group of Agent Smiths, you can see people who are clearly not Agent Smith, and also not just in the background, these are people coming up to get punched by Neo who haven't got Weaving's face mapped onto them. For a movie that seems to go into a lot of attention to detail (such as the graffiti, the car license plates), this seems like a big lapse. I really can't watch that scene now.
GHOSTOct 13, 2003 at 7:42PM
i'VE NEVER NOTICED THE FACES. CAN ANYONE ELSE BACK THIS UP????
PeteOct 14, 2003 at 2:38AM
Have a look:
One
Two
Three
Four
Five
ghostOct 14, 2003 at 5:34PM
So hows the special Features on the New DVD? Anything worth buying? Just Kiddin.
ctm3Oct 16, 2003 at 1:43AM
I just saw Neo in "Sweet November" and he was blindfolded. Coincidence? I think not!
ronnie37Oct 16, 2003 at 7:50PM
Revolutions is going to be approximately 128 minutes long which is a little bit shorter than Reloaded and The Matrix.
superrussOct 17, 2003 at 7:05PM
k lads. take a look at
http://www.metacortechs.com/main.html
remember its the company neo worked for... its full of codes and stuff you can access on the secret bit of the matrix website.
loftyOct 17, 2003 at 9:28PM
Do you know what the username and password is to get to the employess login at the metacortex site?
loftyOct 17, 2003 at 9:43PM
That's a clear jab at Micro$oft -
Redland, WA
One MetaCortex Ave...
M$ is in Redmond, WA, and headquarters is on "One Microsoft Way".
You can search the directory for AndersonThomas... I tried to search for other people, but then I realized that nobody else in the movie besides Neo has a last name, except for Karl Popper. hmm...
Ryan SchroederOct 18, 2003 at 3:40PM
underscorehosting.com also is live. Thy're listed as a partner on the metacortechs site and are also based in "Redland"
Ryan SchroederOct 18, 2003 at 3:50PM
Has any one called or faxed MC yet?
206.350.7100
206.350.4324 fax
Spoon BoyOct 20, 2003 at 3:35AM
Roll this one around and let me know if anything jumps out @ you:
Sin, toil, extra vermouth.
Need another hint? Try this:
Saw bitch workhorse.
Spoon BoyOct 20, 2003 at 3:48AM
lofty says:
nobody else in the movie besides Neo has a last name, except for Karl Popper.
Cypher's last name was Reagan.
That's a clear jab at Micro$oft
Since the beginning. Another appropriate reference to Mickeysoft is the Blue Pill, symbolizing ignorance, complacency, and unquestioning acceptance of the reality being shoved down your throat on a daily basis. Another M$ reference that wasn't so clear to many was when Neo was in his boss' office getting reprimanded for being late. There was screaming Windows theme in that scene, with the window washer's squeaking squeegee. WINDOWS.
Also, unless you work with M$ server products, you may not be aware that "Agent" is a term they use extensively for their software components.
Brian BloomfieldOct 20, 2003 at 12:11PM
But what about when Morpheus is in the temple in Zion and says "This war has been going on for a century."? wouldn't this imply that this version of Zion is 100 yrs. old?
Spoon BoyOct 20, 2003 at 12:41PM
Brian Bloomfield says:
But what about when Morpheus is in the temple in Zion and says "This war has been going on for a century."? wouldn't this imply that this version of Zion is 100 yrs. old?
Sure, if he was right. What makes you think he's not mistaken?
There are people in this world who firmly believe, through faith, that the age of the earth is as young as six thousand years, not the millions of years that science indicates. While their faith may make them comfortable with their conclusion, it doesn't make it correct.
ctm3Oct 20, 2003 at 4:55PM
I called Metacortex. They have a strange womans voice saying they have overwhelming calls. I wonder if Trins passwords from her laptop can get you in. I imagine these are for the upcoming online game?
So I saw Revolutions, and on one commentary they said it is 6 months after the first movie so that should be set in stone now. And the guy being led away at Merovingians, is the father of the little indian girl at Mobil Station (forgot his name, but its on the cast list). Mostly behind the scenes on the rest of the DVD and not any story talk unfortunately. One thing effect related is I noticed the car the agent jumps on, has no drivetrain.. oops.
What I got out of the movie this time is that Neo hasnt gone to the source yet. As I previously thought the architect room and the source were the same. But now I figured it out that the next movie is when he returns to the source and jacks in as the architect says and as seen in the trailers is when his code is reinserted, just as the two movies had led up to believe that every event ever occuring was a non choice , set plan.
Its gettin close. I'm gonna fly down to hollywood to see this movie at the Chinese theater. This thread is about dead but I'm still readin it anyway.
- The earth is estimated 4.55 BillionYO.
bellOct 21, 2003 at 9:32AM
smith is forever trying to assimilate neo and the codes, that is why he is always one step ahead of neo, smith knows neo is heading for the source. thats why smith is in the corridor, if at the point smith assimilates neo he will able to go through the door himself as he would be recognised by the system as being the one as he holds the codes to reset the matrix. but smith would not reset the matrix if he entered the source smith would take over the matrix instantly. So because smith failed in assimiltaing neo he must take over the matrix the old fashioned way and assimilate the inhabitants one ta a time... i believe smith is in the oracles appartment oin rev because he can get the codes from her... as the oracle passed the codes onto neo perhaps!
CarolynOct 23, 2003 at 12:43AM
interesting theory bell.
that's all I got cause I forgot how to think.
CarolynOct 24, 2003 at 10:40PM
So, i've been thinking about it and since there are only 10 days left, meybe this thread should be archived so when everybody comes back to discuss Revolutions everybodies computers won't explode... heh
Spoon BoyOct 25, 2003 at 3:18PM
I recieved this in an email from a person on the net. It offers some very cool insight:
[BEGIN EMAIL]
...........................................
I found your writings on The Matrix interesting. You talked a lot about computer programming, 2+2=4, etc. in your article. Something to consider... have you ever heard of a Stochastic Model? Or Bayesian math? Or a Kalman filter? Or maybe Numerical Methods? These are all related forms of mathematics... let me explain.
In very complex computer systems, such as aircraft navigation, statistical error models must be constructed that model the real world and make certain anticipations/assumptions. Think of probability theory wrapped up in matrix math wrapped up again in integral/derivative calculus equations. It works like this, a computer system uses inputs from sensors to observe the outside world, anticipate them, and then tries to react to those observations. The programmers of the system are smart enough however to know that the sensors themselves are prone to error, and not only that, the system you are observing, a real world system, will respond in certain ways you can not certainly predict all of the time because of a certain element of real-world randomness. So the best you can do is construct an error model of what the most likely outcomes of that particular observation will be. Over time as you make more observations your error model becomes increasingly more and more precise. You continuously refine your equations because the error rendered by your algorithm gets fed back into the systems where it is integrated (a calculus term) over and over again, causing the error to become increasingly smaller and smaller, until finally the error may still be present but it is small enough that it is of no concern to your overall larger solution... so you just ignore it. They will always be there, but they are no longer of concern. When the errors grow large enough to be a concern, you re-integrate the equation.
Occasionally highly improbable things can happen in the real world, which in turn will cause your error model to break down. When this happens hopefully the error is manageable and will eventually dissipate in time after multiple integrations of the error. If it is beyond your thresholds you will have to restart the system.
I found it interesting that The Architect calls Neo the "integral anomaly," that he is the sixth emergence of the integral anomaly and that they need to "reinsert his code into the prime program...." This of course also means all the monitors on the walls behind Neo make a lot of sense given this type of math, this whole scene is about probability. And of course choice, or that certain real-world randomness, is the problem that probability theory is trying to construct a ruleset around.
I think Neo represents the completely improbable outcome, and the error model of The Matrix is now past all thresholds/points of return. This would mean that the third movie is a totally open book and anything can happen. This would also probably mean that Neo is human. Anyway it all makes perfect sense from a probability standpoint.
...........................................
[END EMAIL]
Not sure why this necessarily means Neo is human, but the insight on how we attempt to achieve randomness through probability theory and computer programming totally ties in to the topic of A.I., where the line that separates reality from simulation becomes unclear.
Coming down the stretch here. Have fun with it! :)
BogeyOct 25, 2003 at 4:50PM
hey guys..been reading this thread for a while...wanted to post earlier, but nothing interting to post....until now...
Check out this site http://free.pages.at/areku/meta/
there is more with the metacortex site than meets the eye....very interesting...
makes u wonder....where does it end.....?
endless details.......never seen anything like this before...l
BogeyOct 25, 2003 at 5:06PM
http://mitglied.lycos.de/Gumpraider/metacortex/htm/investigations.htm
updated version of the site.....dunno why it's a differnt asdress,,,
but much more info on this one....
WOW!
BogeyOct 25, 2003 at 5:36PM
aargh...my head is gonna explode.....
after reading so much.....
for the story it goes something like this..
Metacortex is the company that designed the matrix
http://mitglied.lycos.de/Gumpraider/metacortex/htm/art.htm
If you see this link you can see that the merovingian looks very similair to the ceo of metacortex.....aaargh,,,my brains hurts.
BogeyOct 25, 2003 at 6:01PM
ok guys...last post on this metacortex for me...but im so Fking excited about all this....and i want to share this with yoou guys..
http://metacortex.vze.com/
read the step by step...
best summarry so far (and not ttoo long...
Spoon BoyOct 26, 2003 at 2:45AM
For those of you who have played the game Enter The Matrix, please explain to us what exactly is revealed with regards to the old Oracle's "transition" into the "new" Oracle.
I watched the extra dvd that came with Reloaded, and they discuss this topic. I haven't played the game, and won't have time to do so before Revolutions comes out, so please enlighten the rest of us so that we know the story behind the new Oracle. I realize they will have a new actress playing the Oracle character due to the death of the original actress. However, there's apparently a deeper story to this, only revealed in the Enter The Matrix game. Can anybody explain?
Thanks.
bellOct 26, 2003 at 12:55PM
first 1.26 minutes of superbrawl at address below...
warning definate spoilers
========================================
http://users.skynet.be/pir/mo91694.asf
moviephuuckerOct 26, 2003 at 10:17PM
the matrix is another matrix, they still are in the matrix.
enjoy "revolutions"
hohohoho!
Spoon BoyOct 27, 2003 at 2:36AM
Some really cool guy said:
In very complex computer systems, such as aircraft navigation, statistical error models must be constructed that model the real world and make certain anticipations/assumptions. Think of probability theory wrapped up in matrix math wrapped up again in integral/derivative calculus equations.
I spent some time thinking about the insight this guy's offered regarding how we, in complex computer systems, construct statistical error models in order to simulate reality. As he illustrates, programmers use sensors to input data into a computer, which then "learns" how the real world behaves. As more data is input into the program, the accuracy of the simulation is increased. Over time, as long as your model is free of error, things begin to stabilize and simulation becomes increasingly more like the real world. When you take this type of computer programming to its extreme potential, you start tapping into the topic of Artificial Intelligence.
Here's something that occured to me:
Consider a deck of cards. We know that the natural odds of drawing an Ace off the top of the deck is 1 in 13.
Now let's imagine that we want to create a computer program that simulates this real world fact. With something as simple as cards, we can easily program a computer to calculate 1 out of 13, and use that as our model. However, for the purpose of this example, let's say that the only way we can input the data is through some sort of sensor, where the computer can "observe" its real world counterpart, and then attempt to simulate it with the data given. To construct our error model, we as programmers would repetitively shuffle a 52 card deck, flip over the top card, and input the result into the computer. Odds tell us that we'll have an Ace 1 out of 13 times. 2 out of 26 times, 3 out of 39 times, 4 out of 52 times, and so on. The more times we do this and enter it into the computer, the more accurate it becomes. Odds tell us that if we did this 13 million times, we'd get an Ace 1 million times.
However, as this guy points out, there are occasions in the real world where highly improbable things can happen. If these highly improbable events occur too often, especially early on during the input phase, the error model breaks down and becomes corrupted, leading to an inaccurate simulation. When this happens, we as programmers need to clean the slate and start over, wiping out all the instances of coincidence that the computer is basing its simulation on.
Back to our card example. We shuffle the deck, pull the top card, record it into the computer, and repeat. Repeat. Repeat. But what if, just by chance, we pull four Aces in a row on our first try? Highly improbable, but not impossible. This "integral anomaly" throws our model off and corrupts our results. We therefore start over, and re-apply the equation to a clean slate. After all, we don't want to give the computer any wrong ideas.
Neo is that weird coincidence, that integral anomaly, the four Aces in a row, that throw the error model off and necessitate a "re-insertion of the prime program", or a "re-applying of the equation". A Reload of the Matrix.
"To an artificial mind, all reality is virtual."
--Matriculated
Spoon BoyOct 27, 2003 at 3:00AM
So that said, I now wonder if what we're looking @ here is Artificial Intelligence, or simply our relentlously feeble attempt @ it. Perhaps, as in real life, that attempt never quite succeeds due the integral anomaly (i.e. a factor which cannot be simulated artificially.) In the case with our story, that integral anomaly is Choice.
Scott HillisOct 28, 2003 at 10:15AM
I have seen "Reloaded" two more times (once on Imax and once on DVD), and seen all the "Revolutions" trailers, and have abandoned theories like "matrix-within-matrix", and wilder but cool ones like "everything is AI" and "it's really the machines that are slaves".
I think the truth is fairly straightforward: humans have in fact been enslaved by machines, Zion is real and Neo is the result of the systemic anomoly that the Architect couldn't get rid of.
The next step, the one hinted at in "Reloaded" with the re-emergence of the spoon theme and with Neo stopping the squiddies, is for Neo's powers to transfer over to the physical world. This fits with the Wachowski's fascination with Eastern philosophy, the whole "there is no spoon" idea, and the stylistic elements of the movie.
Consider: scenes in the Matrix are washed out, sterile, while ones in the real world are gritty, colorful and fleshed out. I don't think they'd make such a sharp distinction just to fool the audience. Instead of going for a cheap "you thought they were out the Matrix but they really weren't!" ploy, the Wachowskis will try to take it to the next level by making a statement about *reality*. I imagine they will weave in elements of Buddhist thought along with strands of modern theories that describe the universe in computational and informational terms.
As to Agent Smith, he is the catalyst that will drive the movies to their ultimate conclusion. Think, without the danger posed by Smith, Neo is still part of the system. Even if Neo chooses the wrong door, I believe the Architect when he says there are levels of survival they are prepared to accept. But with Smith on the loose, Neo must now face the possibility that not only will all humanity be destroyed, but all computer intelligence as well, including the Oracle and good programs like Seraph. Only Smith will remain. This will spur Neo into action, and I expect the climax to be something along the lines of Neo merging with the mainframe core to create a sort of human-AI merged mind.
I don't think everything will be wrapped up nice and tidy, though. I'm sure the Wachowskis will leave some things ambiguous so that people will think things through for themselves and debate the ideas presented in the movie. I think my scenario above is likely, but it is possible there will be some final twist that will be just ambiguous enough to make everyone doubt everything.
GhostOct 28, 2003 at 10:42AM
That's great! I couldn't agree and hope for that more. I have spoken above about the possible "Real World Powers" and how the Matrix stopped mankind from obtaining their true potential for extra perceptional abilities. Also the fact that they could have always had them and the Matrix fooled them into thinking those powers didn't exist.
I also talked about the point of humans realizing their evolutionary potential of (x-men, professor Xavior) mental powers. The Matrix could have been the machines way of trying to understand and harness those power.
Either and any way they take the story line (even if those powers only relate to Neo) it will be excellent.
Everyone the post above by Scott Hillis is genius and you should pay close attention to it. It will absolutely be the closest outline to the third movie posted yet.
GhostOct 28, 2003 at 10:48AM
But that's only my Opinion.....
ctm3Oct 28, 2003 at 1:57PM
I can go along with Neo is a telekinetic evolved man with visions and esp in the real world, as an evolved man, who has considerably expanded his mind thanks to the matrix world and experience. I'm confused still as to why the Oracle says that he is trapped somewhere between the real and the matrix though...
GhostOct 28, 2003 at 3:04PM
Yea, me too. Even with all the new stuff out, i still don't quite grasp that.
Spoon BoyOct 28, 2003 at 3:12PM
Have we ever figured out what the story is with the floppy in Reloaded?
In the beginning of Reloaded, two guys volunteered to stay back in the Matrix for 36 hours to await contact from the Oracle while the rest of the heroes returned to Zion on Locke's orders. These two guys were Bane and his buddy.
Just before exiting out through the hardline, Bane and his buddy were being chased by Smith. Recall the scene where they came crashing through the window in the ceiling while the phone was ringing. One of them carried an envelope, which we presume was from the Oracle and was to be delivered to Neo.
Both men exit through the hardline, but not before Smith puddings Bane.
Back in Zion, a floppy disk of sorts, which would seem to be the contents of that envelope, is delivered to Neo by Bane's buddy. He tells Neo it's from the Oracle. If it is, how was this object transported from the Matrix to Zion? This still bothers me.
Also, what do we suppose was on that floppy? A message from the Oracle? Directions to Seraph? Perhaps the floppy conained an executable program which contained the actual courtyard conversation itself?
NumerologyFanOct 28, 2003 at 6:31PM
YEs, the floppy them will it be a good point of the reality in MWM... or just a BIG FAT CRACKING ERROR of ythe Wachovsky,.
:(
What do you like? How can Mass be transported out of Matrix?
Or just Maybe, they in the ship were ready to receive more data that the "mind" , so it would must "exist" some way to redirect the info to a yet-ready package. BUT that means that its significance in only by coming from the Oracle, not the envelope itself. That means they could just called Neo and tell him the Oracle wanted to contact him, without showing him a thing...
And another thing close-related, HOW IN THE HELL could Smith pudd in Bane WITHOUT THE SHIP CREW NOTICING IT???? In all the films, you see the Operator guiding and checking the people in Matrix to his phone call, and that time, couldnt Bane & friend get to a phone by itselves...
It just makes me wonder...
Howard RoarkOct 28, 2003 at 9:11PM
There's one half second worth of footage in the primary Revolutions trailer that I am perplexed by. At 2:15, a ship that looks Neb-like is shown flying through a beautiful clear sky. Where is this sky, if the 'real' Zion-world is truly covered in Mordor-like clouds?
ctm3Oct 28, 2003 at 11:14PM
We've already discussed that to no conclusion. I still think its above the cloud cover (moon visible, and cloud/smoke trail).
GhostOct 29, 2003 at 10:10AM
About the package....
A. Remember in the Game and in the Animatrix; Thadius's crew drops a package of info regarding the Squid Army attack. Then Niobe and Ghost go into the matrix to retrieve the package. Yes you all remember that.
Q. How is that any different than this package sent by the Oracle to Neo?
GhostOct 29, 2003 at 10:15AM
Q. Who was the operator of the ship Bane was on when he got the "Black Goo"?
Q. What did Link see when Morph/Neo got the Black Goo?
If you answer those two questions i bet you'll figure somthing out :)
GhostOct 29, 2003 at 10:23AM
This must be getting anoying :) Sorry.
Q. If Smith was in bane's boy and Jacked in would he come out in the matrix looking like Smith or Bane?
My last post was to NumerologyFan.
Spoon BoyOct 29, 2003 at 2:29PM
Ghost says:
About the package....
A. Remember in the Game and in the Animatrix; Thadius's crew drops a package of info regarding the Squid Army attack. Then Niobe and Ghost go into the matrix to retrieve the package. Yes you all remember that.
Q. How is that any different than this package sent by the Oracle to Neo?
I haven't played the game, so I must ask:
Did Niobe and Ghost bring the physical package back to Zion? If so, how do you suppose the virtual mass of the package in the Matrix was brought back to Zion as physical mass? If that were possible, why doesn't Neo bring back, say, his sunglasses, when he jacks out of the Matrix?
GhostOct 29, 2003 at 4:08PM
No, in the Animatrix Thaddeus records what they saw. That info was jacked into the matrix and left in a mailbox (if I remember the Animatrix episode correct).
Then in the game, Niobe and Ghost go to the Post Office to retrieve the package of data. They get the package and jack back out with it. When they are back on the ship they view the info from the package and it is the Last Transmission of the Osirus.
Once they view that they go back to Zion and deliver "a" package to Lock. Lock then watches the copied version of the original transmission.
Then we go into the movie where Neo and Company meet all the other captains in the sewers and are shown the broadcast. Once again the info in the matrix is in the form of a package.
I understand it as follows:
Think of a CD. I take a Physical CD and put it in my PC. I then convert the info to MP3 files. Then I put the MP3 file on my web site as a "CD" icon. Then Jason Kottke "Jacks Into" my site and downloads my MP3 file onto his PC and burns it onto a CD.
Thaddeus took a recording and converted it to Matrix code. Then put the Matrix Code version of the Recording into the Matrix as a "package" icon. Then Niobe Jacked in the Matrix took the Matrix Code Recording and burned a copy of it on the Logos.
I don't know if that helps at all. Mabey i'm not seeing it right. If i had a copy of the game's video clips, Animatrix episode, and Reloaded in front of me i would be more help. I think that all is explained with those three. I wish i could watch The Last Flight again because i'm sure it would have some clues.
Spoon BoyOct 29, 2003 at 6:58PM
Ghost says:
Think of a CD. I take a Physical CD and put it in my PC. I then convert the info to MP3 files. Then I put the MP3 file on my web site as a "CD" icon. Then Jason Kottke "Jacks Into" my site and downloads my MP3 file onto his PC and burns it onto a CD.
Sure, that would be the way to explain it. The message from the Oracle was handed off to a messenger in the virtual world of the Matrix, manifesting itself in the form of a piece of media in the envelope.
However, once back in Zion, the floppy physically delivered to Neo could not have been the *same* object from the Matrix, but rather a burned copy of the message.
For some reason, the rules of the Matrix dictate that the messenger must have a (virtually) physical possession of the floppy, so that the ship's operator could rip a real-world floppy from the code.
For a variation on your analogy, imagine an executable program on your computer generating a file to disk. Kottke's hacker buddy jacks into your computer and retrieves the file, transferring it to his own computer over the Internet. He then rips a cd of the file from his machine, pops the cd out of the burner, and delivers the cd to Kottke's apartment.
Trippy!
SajjmanOct 29, 2003 at 9:58PM
After seeing both official revolutions trailers i have a couple of questions :
1. What the fuck is that worm like machine that asks Neo something along the lines of :"What is it" or "What do you want?" with the most fucking wikkid voice i've ever heard :P
2. You see in the trailers that neo is blindfolded, possibly a product of the EMP blast light that he send out in the end of reloaded but, for those who have read about Oidipus (Ancient greek litterature) knows that he took a knife and poked his eyes out after understanding that his faith was not to escape from (that is when a fortune teller tells his parents that he is gonna kill his father and become his mothers husband and this does happen) , it will emply that Trinity is neos mother - perhaps mother of the matrix - If the Architecht is the father , shouldnt he be dead by now if this would be the case? The oidipus thingie is as u can figure out about predetermination and that is issued in the movies.
3. Why do u see smith all engulfed in flames? he looks like some freaky mythical creature.
4. Neo says to the worm machine thingie that :" The program smith has grown to strong , u cant stop him but i can" or something.. He stands in the "real world" and says this with thunder in the background, how come the machines want to hear him out ? Under the attack of zion which happens at the same time .. aproximately :D
5. i had more questions but they're gone , post later when it comes back to me :P
Spoon BoyOct 30, 2003 at 12:23AM
I've made a conscious effort to dodge the trailers the past couple months; I'd rather go in with no idea what to expect.
I did, however, catch the shot with Smith in the Oracle's apartment, geeked out of his mind, laughing in blissful satisfaction. Looks like he's hacked the Matrix database, giving him full manipulative control of the information within it. *Note that the database is not the same as the Source.
"Oracle powers the Internet."
Scott HillisOct 30, 2003 at 9:58AM
Question: In "The Matrix", why is Smith after the codes to the Zion mainframe? He tortures Morpheus not to find the location of Zion, but to get access to its computer system. Why? We did see anything of Zion's computer system in "Reloaded" except for the control room scene where everything was white and glassy and clean, not fleshy and brown and grey like the rest of Zion. What does Zion's system have that Smith wants?
Spoon BoyOct 30, 2003 at 10:37AM
Scott Hillis says:
Question: In "The Matrix", why is Smith after the codes to the Zion mainframe?
I think the message concerning this in M1 is that Smith has developed a human-like element of Choice, and has become burdened by his "purpose" as a program. He's sick of it. He can't stand this "place"...this "zoo". He wants to be rid of his unwanted chore as an Agent, which are essentially programs designed to control the Zion resistance.
His reasoning is that if he were to eliminate the Zion resistance, he would be relieved of his duty. With Zion gone, he would be free.
GhostOct 31, 2003 at 9:59AM
Yeah, but when he’s in Bane's body wouldn't Smith be able to get the codes?
I kind of see Smith's trouble being that he can't see outside of his box. I think that is one problem that all the rebel programs have. Smith was created to do something and now that his real purpose is gone he's partially insane and must continue his now useless struggle to do what he has always done.
Because Smith's quest was taken from him and that was all he knew, he can no longer think outside that mode of existence. All his actions now are the same as before. Except his anger and revenge.
It's like an AI robot sentry designed to guard Bill Gates house. If you send that robot on it's way it is still going to continue to try and guard something no matter if it's right or wrong. Think about it, that same problem exists with humans too.
The only other idea I have is that Smith is a method or subsystem of control. If that were true then he would be designed to influence Neo even as a rebel program acting on his own.
Spoon BoyOct 31, 2003 at 2:49PM
Ghost says:
Yeah, but when he’s in Bane's body wouldn't Smith be able to get the codes?
That's exactly what he's is in the process of trying to accomplish through Bane's body as we speak, right? It would make sense that only a select view Zionites (i.e. captains) would have the access codes to the Zion mainframe. The rest of the crew wouldn't, unless of course they did some snooping.
Spoon BoyNov 01, 2003 at 11:25PM
More binary stuff...
I just revisited The Animatrix's "The Second Renaissance" Parts 1 and 2. Not sure if this has been brought up, but there's something significant about the machine nation's name of 01 (Zero-One).
To recap, we had a discussion in the first thread regarding the role of binary numbers in the story, particularly the recurring instance of 101 and its connection to the idea of "the sixth" iteration, or revolution, of the Matrix.
On that note, it just dawned on me that the machine nation, 01, would signify the second slot in our binary sequence. 00, 01, 10, 11, 100, 101, and so on.
01 = "the second"
As in "The Second Renaissance".
SajjmanNov 02, 2003 at 8:06AM
It suddenly dawned upon me that after reading your thread about stuff dawning upon you that your wickid theories that are very good might be the product of your A.I brain working check this out ...
by Spoon Boy on November 01, 2003 at 11:25:27 ET
Do u see the pattern ? :)
ronnie37Nov 03, 2003 at 2:49AM
After watching Reloaded several times on DVD one part that really interests me is in the beginning when the Agents break up the meeting and Neo goes upstairs and fights them. After whoopin them he flies to see the Oracle only to find shes not there. Then for the first time u see the two Agent Smiths. One of the Smiths says, "Its happening exactly as before", and the other Smith replies, "..........well not exactly" (smiling of course). I wonder if this is referring to past versions of the Matrix. If so, has Smith done this type of thing before? I was under the impression that Smith was a threat to both the machines and the humans with his cloning behavior. Lemme know what you guys think.
ThereIsNoMovieNov 03, 2003 at 2:16PM
I've been gone from the thread awhile, and am trying to catch up, so forgive me if this is old news:
At http://www.thematrix.com/, under "communications" in the upper right, there are links to Revolutions Production Notes, complete with a spoiler warning. Click past that (sorry no URL, but it's all frames), and there's some promo stuff that seems to be posted a bit too soon prior to the release of the movie:
"EVERYTHING THAT HAS A BEGINNING HAS AN END
At the stunning conclusion of The Matrix Reloaded, Neo (KEANU REEVES) took another step forward in the quest for truth that began with his journey into the real world at the outset of The Matrix – but that transformation has left him drained of his power, adrift in a no man’s land between the Matrix and the Machine World. While Trinity (CARRIE-ANNE MOSS) holds vigil over Neo’s comatose body, Morpheus (LAURENCE FISHBURNE) grapples with the revelation that the One in which he has invested a life’s worth of faith is merely another system of control invented by the architects of the Matrix.
In The Matrix Revolutions, the final explosive chapter in the Matrix trilogy, the epic war between man and machine reaches a thundering crescendo: the Zion military, aided by courageous civilian volunteers like Zee (NONA GAYE) and the Kid (CLAYTON WATSON), desperately battles to hold back the Sentinel invasion as the Machine army bores into their stronghold. Facing total annihilation, the citizens of the last bastion of humanity fight not only for their own lives, but for the future of mankind itself.
But an unknown element poisons the ranks from within: the rogue program Smith (HUGO WEAVING) has cunningly hijacked Bane (IAN BLISS), a member of the hovercraft fleet. Growing more powerful with each passing second, Smith is beyond even the control of the Machines and now threatens to destroy their empire along with the real world and the Matrix. The Oracle (MARY ALICE) offers Neo her final words of guidance, which he accepts with the knowledge that she is a program and her words could be just another layer of falsehood in the grand scheme of the Matrix.
With the aid of Niobe (JADA PINKETT SMITH), Neo and Trinity choose to travel farther than any human has ever dared to go – a treacherous journey above ground, across the scorched surface of the earth and into the heart of the menacing Machine City. In this vast mechanized metropolis, Neo comes face to face with the ultimate power in the Machine world – the Deus Ex Machina – and strikes a bargain that is the only hope for a dying world.
The war will end tonight, with Neo’s destiny and the fate of two civilizations inexorably tied to the outcome of his cataclysmic confrontation with Smith."
Is this new?
GhostNov 03, 2003 at 5:40PM
Yes And No.
GhostNov 03, 2003 at 5:45PM
The following is from the above link:
In Revolutions, Neo learns the truth behind the source of his powers and why he is able to use them in the real world. Reeves sees Neo as “a lightning rod, a searcher and a witness. In acting out his quest, Neo makes himself available as a conduit for a very powerful energy force, which translates into these extraordinary powers.”
NumerologyFanNov 04, 2003 at 3:27AM
ThereIsNoMovie says:
yadda yadda yadda Spoiler spoiler Spoiler
Nooo
Iwont read it!!! I am passing ! You guys must not post that kind of things! I ve guarding my mind for the BIG Revelation
(11.05, 8 am! Chiapas Mexico : ) )
I dont want to spoil my mind more
I ve seen the Super Brawl clip, and I am suffering so much for that.
I dont want to know.
Does this makes sense? Do I have the right to protect my ignorance?
"-Do not try to analyze the movie. That's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.
-What truth?
-There is no Movie.
-There is no Movie?
-Then you'll see that is not the Movie that are you analyzing , but it is only your own mind"
GhostNov 04, 2003 at 8:53AM
Spoiler .................. Spoiler ....................
NumerologyFan:
If your reading this then you must realize that you came here to read these spoilers, I mean you've already seen the super brawl and heard us analyze. But you're here to try to understand why you read the spoilers. I thought you'd have figured that out by now.
It is the spoilers that drive us.........
ctm3Nov 04, 2003 at 2:41PM
You guys have been a riot. The movie opens tomorrow! Everyone here at work thinks its MwM but I'm the only one who doesn't. Maybe I should put some money down on it.
Spoon BoyNov 04, 2003 at 7:52PM
...which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end.
Bring on the 110. See you all in the seventh!
CarolynNov 04, 2003 at 7:54PM
so, to say one of the first 'so what do you all think' that I've done in awhile (it's been like six months) does it interest anyone else at all that the robot nation 01 in the 2nd rennaisance is located where riyahd, the capital of saudi arabia, is?
and then they end up ruling the economy...and then they destroy the humans?
paranoia paranoia, everybody's comin' to get me
It's later in my head than it is on paper...
In fact, I think i'll go soak my head.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
cg
la la la
NumerologyFanNov 05, 2003 at 1:19AM
Well, well, Looks like all is gone here.
I am going to watch DA MOVIE at 11.05 at Cinemarks, in Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas, 8:00 am. (first show, man!!)
Ive enjoyed and learned so much from this thread, despite my understanding of English. (Hey you got to accept that you can Learn GOOD english in The Matrix films ; )
I think This have been my best experience about ideas discussion and I am more than glad to say Ive participated (kind of :P) in this thread. I feel deep gratitude to all you that desired to share his/her feelings, ideas and researchs about the theme, and that ones that gave his/her time to analyze mines. Spoon Boy , Jason, Ghost, ctm3, Carolyn, siddharta, Bell, Dan, brisvegas1, kie, gez, Old_Gobbo, Tonny, lofty (Adam), Sajjman, Chazdor,beza1e1, Alien, Neuromancer, sci-fi man, Scott Hillis, scott(maybe the same), Ralphy, kavy, Joe Kaczmarek, Game, RYUUYR, Tom Paine,Tazmaster, Ken Wais, and aaaaaaaaaaall others.
All you are a kind of family for me, now.
I dont know if I am posting here before tomorrow. You know, it could be that the W's just made his best efforts in M1 and M2...
Maybe tommorrow at 12:00 I may lost all faith in Matrix , but right here, right now its a great moment to enjoy the expectation!
LONG LIFE TO MATRIX!!!
LONG LIFE TO W's!!!!!!
Sincerely...
NumerologyFan
Siddarta GouthamaNov 05, 2003 at 2:58AM
It's been a while again, but I kept reading your posts.
Well, I'm off to see the big picture. I appreciated you all discussing these films in depth.
I hope to meet you in the next thread maybe...
svenNov 05, 2003 at 7:43AM
Dear all ,
Ok this is my first time i'm loging a comment and I must say it took me a while to read all that , gees i'm knackered .
Here is some food for thought .(I do apologise if this has been written already)
Is Zion actually another Matrix , and think that the real world isn't real. Thats why Neo could feel the squidies in the real world.
Maybe the world came to a end many centries ago?
Another thing , the old lady said to Neo in M2 , that there is a program that controls another program eg. the birds . Then she said have you ever heard of Ghosts , Angels ect . But the thing is if Smith has been released and trying to beat the system by duplicating him self ova and ova , can't the Source just end the matrix and reload a new one? Were the hell does smith want to go like logged above .
Well looking forward seeing the M3 tonight .
Apparently the fighting scene in the end int he rain took 8 days to shoot.
sweet lata
(69)
GhostNov 05, 2003 at 8:51AM
Hah. Seven minutes untill the movie begins and i'm at work while you all are waiting in line. I think i should quit and take a taxi to the theater. What do you think? Is it worth it?
CarolynNov 05, 2003 at 9:33AM
last post until I get ot see it, which won't be for a couple of days.
Do it Ghost, it is totally worth it. but then of course i fail to take my own advice and am off to class.
apologies for the previous post.
cg
svenNov 05, 2003 at 10:07AM
you guys based in the states ?
show starts for me in 5 and half hrs .... damitt
Jacob MartinNov 05, 2003 at 10:48AM
So, is M3 some kind of cop-out by W&W or did their producer just fail to reign in their enthiusiasm for special effects?
Jacob MartinNov 05, 2003 at 10:48AM
So, is M3 some kind of cop-out by W&W or did their producer just fail to reign in their enthiusiasm for special effects?
ghostNov 05, 2003 at 11:07AM
The idea behind the series was "supposedly" planned since it's inception. I don't know how it will be or anything else at this point. I think that the W's will still amaze us. As far as the showtimes i was positive that the movie began around the world at exactly the same time? Didn't it? I think you should check again. Also if you don't see it this morning then you had better not come on this site. I'm estimating that the first wave of comments about the movie will come in around 2 - 3 hours.
GhostNov 05, 2003 at 11:19AM
Breaking News:
Just over an hour ago, Larry and Andy Wachowski, Joel Silver, Keanu Reeves, and Jada Pinkett Smith found themselves in a theater in Shinjuku, Tokyo, introducing the film to a crowd of thousands. This was twenty minutes before the film was to start, because at the actual moment, on a platform outside the theater, a counter ticked off the seconds. Raining, with a sea of Matrix code umbrellas dotting the crowd, Joel announced the weather fitting, considering the Super Burly Brawl in the film.
At the moment of reckoning, lights flooded the surrounding area, soap bubbles and green tinsel confetti poured down, and inside the theater, the film began. Right now, in over 20,000 theaters, in over 100 territories around the world, people are watching the third and final chapter in the Matrix trilogy.
Updates are underway at Thematrix.com site, but considering everyone should be in a theater about now, maybe we'll wait a beat...
More shortly...
TheMatrix.com
NumerologyFanNov 05, 2003 at 11:59AM
I watched it!
I am so happy I can die now.
Kind of.
Ok Ghost, sorry if it is late, but you GOT to watch it. I am burning with the spoiling desire.
Ok, to all you, Iv NOT lost my faoth in W's. Nice film, not the best, but very adecuated.
Hey ya people, I think it could be nice to NOT comment a thing at last by one day or two, to let everybody (sorry Carolyn) see the film themselves.
Thank you.
BogeyNov 05, 2003 at 1:30PM
geez saw the movie...very mixed feelings.....hmmm...
lets say...action very ok...but not a lot of story...think reloeded was much deeper and more story....
BogeyNov 05, 2003 at 1:30PM
geez saw the movie...very mixed feelings.....hmmm...
lets say...action very ok...but not a lot of story...think reloeded was much deeper and more story....
JayNov 05, 2003 at 5:14PM
I'm a little late to the party ...
I stumbled on this thread via Kottke's remaindered links, and actually went through the vast majority of them. One little thing kept bugging me, though, and I don't recall who said it or exactly how it was said, but ...
Someone mentioned how the current version of the Matrix could only be about 35 years old, going by Neo's age. There was also some discussion as to how 250,000 people could be in Zion in that time frame.
Isn't it possible (likely, even) that the emergence of the One takes much longer than we think? That perhaps the next "One" isn't even yet born when the system is "reset," and the timeframe could easily be a hundred or more years? And if the human population is being grown rather than born by the machines, and the citizens of Zion occasionally free minds, than we don't have to accommodate the growth of the city merely through human reproduction - it can grow faster by the freeing of infant minds, no?
Anyway...plan to see the new one here soon, and I'm sure the discussion from this point will be based on what's revealed in the new movie and my points/questions likely don't need to even be addressed, but I thought I'd throw them out there. :)
ghostNov 05, 2003 at 5:52PM
That's the point. If you have 250,000 people in Zion then how old is each version of the Matrix? that was the question. The answers and ideas above never took into account the infant minds idea but; if there were no infant minds then how old would the Matix have to be?
Now if you think of the Matrix as that old - then think of the people and tech in that time - now think of the development untill the Peak of the 21st century. Are you catching my drift?
JayNov 05, 2003 at 6:52PM
Thanks for responding, Ghost. I thought a Reloaded question/comment might get overlooked now that Revolutions is out.
Sorry if I'm covering ground already discussed (and missed by me on my scan through). I guess I go back to the idea that Zion could grow much faster through the freeing of infants/children (as has been pointed out, in M1 they mentioned how they don't free a mind once it's so old - that age could typically be quite young), and thus the idea it's only 35-50 years between anomolies might not be farfetched.
Then again, even at 30 years, you're at nearly 200 years.
Then again, again, was the year Morpheous mentions in M1 2099 or 2199? If the latter, than 200 years isn't out of the realm of possibility. And they weren't *certain* it was 2199. It could be later. Maybe much later; say, 2299. Now 50 years between anomolies isn't out of the question.
So the question goes back to how fast can Zion grow to 250K? Could it be done in 50 years if infants and children are released from their pods at a rapid rate, at least initially? I don't recall many old people, other than the original council. You'd still have "homegrown" kids, but not many would be needed to reach our figure. And the birthrates in the real world matter not, since we're assuming the machines are "creating" or "cloning" the humans.
You could then say the freeing of infants is expected by the machines - they allow a certain amount of "pruning" of their pod farms in order to accommodate the anomaly in the programming.
Man, I don't know if I'm explaining this well enough, and at any rate, someone is going to post soon enough to make this moot. ;)
Again, thanks for the feedback, Ghost.
JeffNov 05, 2003 at 9:23PM
Hi guys. I'm probably not going to see the movie until the weekend at the earliest.. oh well.
jay: Nobody in Zion knew about the previous incarnations of the matrix. The people in Zion believed they knew when in Human history the Matrix was created (early 21st century, I guess), and must have guessed that the person who freed them (actually the earlier One) did so soon after the Matrix was created. They would know, obviously, how much time passed for them in Zion, possibly only in the general terms of the cycle of sleep or aging but presumably through clocks on the hoverships or in Zion itself.
(The hoverships, incidentally, appeared to be manufactured by humans near the end of the pre-matrix war against the machines, but presumably all would be destroyed defending Zion during each purge)
"You believe that it is the year 1999, when in fact is closer to _2199_. I can't tell you _exactly_ what year it is, because we honestly don't know"
"at some point in the eraly twenty-first century [...] we gave birth to AI"
So, Morpheus takes 2050 + 150 and gets 2200 as stated in the first movie.
But to 2199 we now know we must add the time for each additional incarnation of the matrix, including the earlier failed incarnations: the Eden matrix and the Matrix before the first One. I seem to recall a hundred-year figure bandied about as the length of time Zion has resisted the machines, probably during Morpheus' speech to the ravers.
Apparently the machines set up a new Zion immediately after the old one's destruction, and since we have only one data point(*) we'll have to assume that 100 years is average. Or if the machines wait and keep Neo captive for 50 years while they set the Zion world back up, 150 years. So you could stretch the timeline to the year 3000 if you wanted.
jkottkeNov 05, 2003 at 10:07PM
Hello all. Since Revolutions is out now, I'm going to close this thread. I just made a post about it (it = Revolutions)...it's on the front page of the site and you may post there if you'd like. One request from me for some of the regulars here: please try not to overwhelm the new thread...give it a bit of breathing room to happen on it's own.
So thanks....it's been a unusual but interesting experience playing host to this six-month conversation.
This thread is closed to new comments. Thanks to everyone who responded.