Susan Orlean dot com launches
A site I’ve been working on for the past few months (on and off) has finally gone live. susanorlean.com is the online home of Susan Orlean, staff writer for The New Yorker, author, and Meryl Streep impersonator (or is that the other way round?). In addition to the design, I also exercised my Perl muscles in building a little widget to let Susan upload her articles without going through me all the time.
This was a great site to work on because it was fun to do, the client was really enthusiastic about it, and it introduced me to Susan’s writing (The Orchid Thief is recommended). After working on dozens of corporate Web sites with buzzword-compliant copy, it was a delight to read through Susan’s articles in the process of building the site.
I’d love to hear any comments, questions, or constructive criticism you might have.
Reader comments
Seth WerkheiserSep 19, 2002 at 9:34AM
Very cool. Site flows smoothly and feels all warm and toasty. Good job.
RorySep 19, 2002 at 9:49AM
Classy stuff, Jason.
spiralSep 19, 2002 at 10:55AM
Nice, clean, but sort of blase.
kamauSep 19, 2002 at 11:01AM
Cool.....looks like kottke.org.
Brad LausterSep 19, 2002 at 11:46AM
What? It doesn't look anything like kottke.org.
I dig it. My overall impressions:
1. It has personality. That is, her personality can be seen in the site design and the writing (the articles, obviously, but also the other stuff). I assume this was by design. If so: nice!
2. The design doesn't get in my way. Again, nice!
BenSep 19, 2002 at 12:20PM
I think it could really use some sort of Flash intro with some nice pullquotes from reviews, possibly some of her books flying across the screen (so you get a visual sense of her work), and possible some sparkles (with sound effects) to show that it is a new web site... otherwise, how will people know?
v5Sep 19, 2002 at 12:38PM
i'm gonna have to chime in on the 'it looks like kottke' comment -- i agree. open up kottke.org, obscurestore.com (also k-designed, i believe) and now this new site side by side on your pc and milk will shoot out of your nose. kottke's got something that keeps me coming back to his sites, un certain clever je ne sais quoi, but it ain't his desizign skillz -- which aren't bad either, no suh, just not so, erm ... varied.
jkottkeSep 19, 2002 at 12:44PM
Good points, Ben...I hadn't been thinking in that direction. That would work pretty well with a nice techno beat in the background and stars chasing the cursor around.
MartySep 19, 2002 at 1:26PM
Nicely done! Smooth as a river of molasses on an August day in Tuscaloosa. I'm curious about the phrases that follow her name up at the top of the page. When I refresh, sometimes the phrase repeats once, sometimes a new one appears. Designed that way or a glitch in my machine?
TommyWommySep 19, 2002 at 1:56PM
Very nice. The sleek, elegant, minimalist design is one I have come to know and love in recent weeks, mainly through my regular visits to kottke.org. I'm glad you havn't succumed to that twisted tool of the Devil - Macromedia Flash. In fact, I think that your work proves that good old HTML has plenty of life in it yet.
NataliaSep 19, 2002 at 1:56PM
Ditto on what v5 and kamau said. It's a cool layout -- clean, easy to navigate, and red...but bears an undeniable resemblence to kottke.org and obscurestore.com.
But then again, maybe that's what you were going for?
daveSep 19, 2002 at 2:03PM
Looks like every other site on the web. Combine aspects of megnut and kottke and there you have it.
It would be nice to see someone, anyone, take a chance and do something original for a change.
On a side note, ok jko, you've told us for two threads now. We KNOW you designed it. Also, why open up comments other than TO have your ass kissed?
tamimSep 19, 2002 at 2:07PM
Marty, these 23 tag lines are on a random rotation:
knows when to hold 'em.
sees when you're sleeping.
eats dessert first.
is up for parole in 2005.
makes a mean martini.
always swings on the first pitch.
does her own stunts.
believes everything she reads.
owes her soul to the company store.
sees you and raises you ten.
lets it ride on red.
prefers boxers.
always leaves room for Jello.
speeds up at yellow lights.
is no Jack Kennedy.
swims on full stomach.
has never seen a horse like the Tennessee Stud.
is available for product endorsements.
slept here.
threat or menace?
builds strong bodies 12 ways.
types 120 wpm.
means well.
[I was gonna post only the 8-10 I saw first and then ask others to post those they saw; but it was just way easier for me to just go and complete the list myself.]
mathowieSep 19, 2002 at 2:37PM
It would be nice to see someone, anyone, take a chance and do something original for a change.
I love that all four people giving negative feedback don't list a site of their own under their username here. Makes it easier to slag someone else without having to back up that feedback, eh?
It shares some design elements from kottke.org, but so what? It's still more readable and easier on the eyes than other author sites I've seen, and other websites in general. I like the overal "spicy" look is nice, and it's fairly simple and easy to read. If there was much more content, I could see the need for a more complex interface, but as it stands it seems fine.
brentSep 19, 2002 at 3:07PM
I love that all four people giving negative feedback don't list a site of their own under their username here. Makes it easier to slag someone else without having to back up that feedback, eh?
You're right. Similarly, all film critics should be filmmakers and art historians should be dead and Dutch. It's all one big competition.
Anyway.
How ethical is it to sell people barely altered versions of your site layout and tout such as newly designed personal sites? I mean, doesn't Frontpage have templates for that? These examples remind me of the go.com-style uniformity Disney tried to push on us for a while: susanorlean.kottke.org. Chuckle.
The design ain't bad ... it's just played out. And I never realized Megnut ripped it off too.
Dan CederholmSep 19, 2002 at 3:26PM
Nice work -- exceptionally clean. Like the flames. Just curious how/if you handle separating content from the layout? Are these flat html files? Any server-side stuff helping you out?
davidSep 19, 2002 at 3:56PM
"You're right. Similarly, all film critics should be filmmakers and art historians should be dead and Dutch."
Exactly. I must have missed the part about leaving your comment only if you have a site to back it up. Ebert better start making some movies. If you use that logic, where are all these designs from the owners of positive comments.
I'm always amazed when comments are asked for, yet negative comments are criminalized. If you only want positive comments, state just that.
I never said the design was bad, I simply stated that it looks like a multitude of other sites, including jko's own. All these comments could easily be made about his own site, and that says plenty right there.
Of course, I completely understand that critical comments from 'a-listers' are rare indeed. Nepotism runs deep.
JonathanSep 19, 2002 at 4:21PM
Is there any real, tangible value in something different just for the sake of being different?
Creativity in web design still must serve the purpose of organizing the content to be accessible to the reader. If you want something different go to www.k10k.net.
I like it jko. I like the spicy red and the little flame. Easy navigation, no clutter. I know where I am and where I was.
...an aside - does anyone ever read the Onion opinion section article by Herbert Kornfeld? Funny stuff.
jkottkeSep 19, 2002 at 4:44PM
It would be nice to see someone, anyone, take a chance and do something original for a change.
Damn those book designers! They've all put covers on their books. Title and author on the front, title and author on the spine, quotes on the back. Text begins on page 1 and reads in consecutive pages until the end. Type is (usually) set in a highly readable serif font. Etc. Etc. Why can't they be more imaginative and original?
David Carson designed a magazine once where the table of contents was right in the middle. That's different and original.
Fuck different. I want usable. The three sites mentioned here (kottke.org, susanorlean.com, obscurestore.com) all look somewhat the same. Top bar, content below. I've done that layout on a number of sites. It works. It's readable, the text starts pretty near the top, and it's open and inviting.
Take a look around at some other weblogs and sites with lots of text (news sites are good example). They all look about the same. Masthead at the top, nav on top or off to the side near the top, text on white starting close to the top in a readable font, etc. It's done that way because of the nature of such sites....they all have the same set of basic requirements. There are some notable counterexamples such as IHT's clever 3-column layout for articles, but even on that site, the masthead and top nav are positioned like that of kottke.org.
If I had a musician or an architect as a client, the site would probably look pretty different because there would be different requirements.
How ethical is it to sell people barely altered versions of your site layout and tout such as newly designed personal sites?
If you take a look at the source code for all three sites, it's different for each one. As in coded from scratch for each site. Each of the layouts is different because each site had a slightly different set of requirements when it was built.
it's just played out.
Perhaps, but it works well. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel here or keep ahead of the latest styles. I'm trying to provide my clients with clean, usable sites. And they're happy with the results.
I'm always amazed when comments are asked for, yet negative comments are criminalized. If you only want positive comments, state just that.
Negative comments are very welcome, but they have to be constructive. Nobody here has been unconstructive yet, which is great. However, if you make comments -- good or bad -- you need to be prepared for people to disagree with you and take you to task for what you said.
Of course, I completely understand that critical comments from 'a-listers' are rare indeed. Nepotism runs deep.
A-list nepotism? Talk about played out. And you could have sounded a bit more self-righteous saying it.
However, you're right in that there's a distinct lack of honest criticism in the weblog and Web design communities, except for some occasional childish sniping, snide remarks, and flamewars. Which is sad because it's hard to grow without criticism.
RickSep 19, 2002 at 4:45PM
Isn't it more appropriately "Always swings AT the first pitch" rather than "ON the first pitch"?
Am I missing something?
jkottkeSep 19, 2002 at 4:47PM
Just curious how/if you handle separating content from the layout? Are these flat html files? Any server-side stuff helping you out?
I'm using XSSI on Apache to do some low-fi templating. And CSS handles most of the layout and such. Nothing too fancy.
The articles are stored in a database and published as flat files when they're made live. The news section will work like that soon as well.
mathowieSep 19, 2002 at 4:50PM
I'm always amazed when comments are asked for, yet negative comments are criminalized.
Not criminalized, I was merely responding to someone saying "someone, anyone, take a chance and do something original for a change" and my answer to that (and why I wanted to see a URL attached to it) is: what's stopping anyone here from doing it themselves? You want variety because the web is boring? Make something amazing. Tired of everything looking "bloggy" and want to see the old glory days of personal sites that did something? Make one. If everything is a derivative of a derivative of a derivative, fire up photoshop, flash, or a VRML editor and go to work.
As for it being ethical, when is having a style that an educated eye such as yourselves can see unethical?
jkottkeSep 19, 2002 at 4:53PM
Isn't it more appropriately "Always swings AT the first pitch" rather than "ON the first pitch"?
Let's ask Google:
"swings at the first pitch": about 124 results
"swings on the first pitch": 2 results
JeremiahSep 19, 2002 at 5:26PM
Hey Jason I am going to have to agree with the other numbnuts in saying that it does remarkably look like your site. If you got paid for this, I say beeeautiful. The other guy up thier said nobody else would show examples of thier work so here are examples of mine
http://www.broken link.com
http://www.nothinghereatbloodyall.bizinfocom
DonnaSep 19, 2002 at 6:10PM
Damn, I am officially obsessed with that rotating header phrase - I reloaded at least ten or fifteen times to see if I got 'em all. Okay, more like thirty.
tamimSep 19, 2002 at 6:11PM
First off, I will keep my thoughts on the design: standard issue readable-usable Kottke template coupled with a flame-banner circa 1995, to myself. I am more curious about the comments some of the people left here.
dave: It would be nice to see someone, anyone, take a chance and do something original for a change.
Without access to the notes from various Kottke-Klient brainstorming sessions, I am pretty sure the design reflects the needs of his client. It's not like Kottke hasn't done anything original in the past. I have yet to see anyone replicate this episode from 0sil8. I am not sure how much wiggleroom there was for "originality" in the Orlean project.
brent: How ethical is it to sell people barely altered versions of your site layout and tout such as newly designed personal sites?
Completely legal as long as his other clients did not make him sign any exclusivity contracts. Also, no where in his write-up does Kottke say that the site is a "newly designed personal site." I am sure Kottke didn't invent the two-column+header-footer design. He just says that a site he had been working on has gone live. He also mentions that he also coded some Perl scripts that run in the background and help his client to maintain her site by herself. There is nothing unethical about repackaging something as long as both parties agree.
dave: On a side note, ok jko, you've told us for two threads now. We KNOW you designed it. Also, why open up comments other than TO have your ass kissed?
This I never get. What exactly is in Kottke's ass to be kissed? I mean, is he a frequent user of mintyass? What is the tangible benefit of kissing his ass? Will he link you on his blog? Add to his sidebar? Give you a job? Klone a kopy of Kottke.org for you for free? I mean, why would you, or anyone, want to kiss Kottke's ass? And why would he want strangers slathering in his anal orifice? It's not like if you don't kiss his ass he'd sick his secret kabal of a-listers to hound you.
gwintSep 19, 2002 at 6:35PM
for comparison with a site designed for a similar type of client, check out Malcolm Gladwell's site:
http://www.gladwell.com/
also, was Blue Crush really inspired by a Susan Orlean story? she's got the high art. she's got the low art. how cool is that?
jkottkeSep 19, 2002 at 7:11PM
Along with Gladwell's, here are some sites of similar folks:
Rebecca Mead
Peter Maass
James Gleick
Michael Specter
Jerome Groopman
Glenn Fleishman
Jennifer Egan
And a few I'm not thinking of right now.
steveSep 19, 2002 at 7:39PM
I couldn't care less about design so long as I can easily find the information I want. The "everything has to look different" mentality should have been out the window a long time ago — Boo.com sure was original compared to other e-commerce sites, and look how it fared.
Jason, if you don't mind my asking, how much were you paid for this fine piece of work?
JasonSep 19, 2002 at 8:02PM
Wow. I have pondered putting comments on my site for a while, and an issue like this makes me want to. Here you have a variety of people, with a variety of opinions....
Couple points I have to add:
Clean, simple, not complicated. Is that bad? For an authors site, what would you like to see? Is this the 21st century artistic masterpiece that will be forever immortalized in design books and art museums everywhere? I don't think so. But does it serve it's purpose and not distract from it's subject at hand? Does it embody what the client (author) wanted to convey? If so, who gives a fuck who likes it or not. It's an artists professional site.
Yes, it might look similar. Is it wrong for a designer to have a style? Speaking of David Carson. He is a designer who is paid a lot of dough FOR his style (which has been copied by every hack designer out there)
When you ask for opinion, you get just that. Someone's opinion. Do you like it? YES/NO/MAYBE/IT NEEDS A FLASH INTRO. All valid comments because they are individual responses.
Just my 5 cents, but hey that's what >> I
Kiruba ShankarSep 20, 2002 at 12:37AM
Hi Jason, I really liked your site design (kottke.org ) ....which is why, I unashamedly used a similar one for mine. That's the bouquet.
Now for the brickbat. Why would you want to take up TWO MONTHS to design Susan's site. If you ask me this could have gotten done in less than two days.
- Kiruba from India.
ElectrinSep 20, 2002 at 1:41AM
Hey Jason, your design works. And that's what really matters. I think you found a great balance between usability and style.
Stay true.
Tom CoatesSep 20, 2002 at 2:48AM
I think the interesting thing about this whole debate is that, essentially, Jason's basically pegged the weblog design thing completely. It's the cleanest and clearest design you could have for a weblog that allows suitable branding possibilities, a block of core content, a set of links and supplementary information. That it's not particularly ground-breaking in technology isn't really the point. I spent a hell of a long time on plasticbag.org and didn't achieve anywhere near the clarify and usability of kottke.org
Interestingly I've been looking to redesign recently and trying to work out whether or not I could get away with a design that closely resembles the structure and form of kottke.org - I just came to the conclusion that Jason had essentially nailed it and that there seemed little point in railing against that. All books are structured in roughly the same way, all magazines have their contents pages in roughly the same place... Why shouldn't there be a core paradigm for an effective weblog...? I only worked on the top bar aspect of the page, so I've cut and pasted some of Jason's core content to give you a sense of how similar they are...
Plasticbag.org Kottke-style redesign
In fact the only reasons I HAVEN'T done this is because 1) It feels like design theft and 2) I have a feeling I'd get unending stick for it... not because I don't think it's a good idea...
sueSep 20, 2002 at 3:04AM
Tom, do your lips ever get tired from being perpetually planted on Kottke's ass? You're just as bad as the people who dis only to dis. Years into the weblog "thing" and you're still obsessed with making sure the no-longer-all-that-big boys still like you. Plus, sycophancy directed at people younger than you is just pathetic.
Tom CoatesSep 20, 2002 at 5:09AM
Hahahaha. Thanks for that, Sue, I needed a laugh. It's always reassuring that no matter how much people write that it's better to attack an argument rather than the people who write them, some people still manage to completely miss the point. As you say, years into the weblog "thing", you'd think people would have figured that out by now...
I've no interest in being liked by the 'big boys'. I just see no point in writing negative things about individuals for the sake of it. And when I agree with someone or am interested in what they're working on or think they've done good work generally, then I think it's only fair to say so. I think you'll find that I have no particular problem in expressing my dissent with people's opinions when I find them particularly unpleasant, as I would have thought my recent posts about the Guardian newspaper and B3ta.com should have demonstrated.
The only thing I wrote anything at all (and interestingly I think I've only posted two or three comments ever on Jason's site) is because I've been having this conversation with myself for a while anyway. Look back at this post from February and you'll see a very similar issue being thought about.
This is precisely why I don't have comments facilities on my own site - I just don't believe that people are able to have a positive, pleasant level of discussion most of the time without resorting to name-calling and sniping...
Tom CoatesSep 20, 2002 at 5:12AM
Anyway, he's barely younger than me anyway :o) and I'm completely "sychophantic" towards Cal Henderson and he's only 21. He also happens to be extraordinarily good at what he does, has built amazing applications like City Creator and Barbelith's discussion forum, and I rather think admiring people should not be related to whether or not they're younger / older / the same or different gender or sexuality / race or religion - but rather whether or not they produce work worth admiring. Ner.
JesperSep 20, 2002 at 7:12AM
Best. Website. Ever. </comicbookguy>
kristoffSep 20, 2002 at 7:22AM
Woah, can you feel the love here?
The site is looking great, and that slogan thingy at the top is a lovely touch. Whether its design has been (over) done or not is not really the matter. What counts is that its serving its purpose.
As for kottke using (or re-using) elements on different sites... does it matter? Everything we have and do is a product of copy.
**
I think it would be completed if you return the same type of border-style used on the homepage with the other larger pictures (I'm just looking at ms. orlean dog now).
Other than that, I'm interested in the type treatment of the "susan orlean" header. Is that bold on-off or is the face like that?
Good job!
BenSep 20, 2002 at 8:01AM
I suppose I should write a real comment about the site...
Why the unflexibility by using fixed "table" widths and fixed font sizes? Any particular reason?
eyeballkidSep 20, 2002 at 8:10AM
Fuck different. I want usable.
And so you should. The object of the Susan Orlean site, I assume, is to bring across information about the author to the reader, something your design does well. The point was probably not to impress fellow web designers. In that case you did what a designer is supposed to do and that's provide a functional, usable product.
RorySep 20, 2002 at 9:07AM
While other have tackled dave's comments about ass-kissing and originality (and all I'd add is, since when is it bad for a designer to have a distinctive style - and one that many others have imitated, no less?), I thought I'd pick up on this:
On a side note, ok jko, you've told us for two threads now. We KNOW you designed it.
Jason was providing the link not because he thought we were deaf, but as a long-term cross-reference from one entry (on its own unique archive page) to another. This will make the later entry more useful to users who arrive via Google and haven't seen the first, which is a Good Thing.
moeSep 20, 2002 at 9:43AM
My only criticism is on the about page, the caption for the dog picture is so close to the main text, that my eyes want to keep reading.
"how to order take-out food. I do a little bit My dog. A personal Web."
Even though I know it's a caption and not part of the paragraph.
ElectrinSep 20, 2002 at 11:41AM
About the about page...
Would a full-justify do? It'd serve to line up the text around the graphics. Just wondering, are there any usability issues with using full justified text as opposed to a left?
KamauSep 20, 2002 at 12:59PM
First things first:
I had no idea my original comment would spark so much conversation. I've been reading kottke.org for about 2 years now. I *think* it was the first blog that I came across, and I liked it then as I do now. So kottke's cool with me.
To Matthowie:
The comment about susanorleans.com looking like kottke.org wasn't meant to be negative. It's just an honest observation. I'm sure Jason got that.
And as far as me not posting a link to a site of my own, you make the assumption that everybody that reads a weblog (or any personal site for that matter) should also write one. The problem is that type of thinking just creates a circular, self referencing, conservative community that exists to pat each other on the back and avoid any constructive critism just because it may not be pleasant.
MichelleSep 20, 2002 at 1:04PM
I have nothing to say about the design (clean) or about a-list-jealousy-catfighting-snark (tired). But I will say that I adore Susan Orlean's work, and I didn't know that Orchid Thief was being made into a movie or that Blue Crush was based on one of her essays, although I thought of that essay right away when I first heard about the movie. In addition: essays I haven't read! O goody!
Today I am a happy kottke.org customer. Good work. ;)
jkottkeSep 20, 2002 at 1:20PM
Other than that, I'm interested in the type treatment of the "susan orlean" header. Is that bold on-off or is the face like that?
I used three different weights of the same typeface to make it look a bit uneven. Some of the letters are slightly different sizes as well.
Why the unflexibility by using fixed "table" widths and fixed font sizes? Any particular reason?
Fixed font sizes: Fear of Style Sheets 4
Fixed width: Lines of text are highly readable at around 15 words/line. What's what I went for. It doesn't really need to go wider or narrower than that.
This will make the later entry more useful to users who arrive via Google and haven't seen the first, which is a Good Thing.
Exactly. Not everyone reads the content here on the day it is published. Two separate topics, two separate posts.
jkottkeSep 20, 2002 at 1:22PM
essays I haven't read! O goody!
And she's got lots more to post...which she will hopefully do once her schedule loosens up a bit.
JasonSep 20, 2002 at 4:29PM
You've got to love design by committee.
Joe MallerSep 20, 2002 at 8:21PM
Nepotism runs deep.
...makes the world go round.
IHT's clever 3-column layout
First action when visiting IHT: click the 'print' button so I can read the article. That site's the web-equivalent of printing an English novel with the lines reading vertically down the page. I loathe that layout.
How ethical is it to sell people barely altered versions of your site layout and tout such as newly designed personal sites?
Perfectly ethical. Something works, you re-use it. Imagine if a carpenter had to re-invent the drawer every time they made a chest. Rooms have walls.
Which is sad because it's hard to grow without criticism.
That's what curiosity, self-doubt and depression are for.
SimonSep 21, 2002 at 1:23AM
Why would you want to take up TWO MONTHS to design Susan's site. If you ask me this could have gotten done in less than two days.
Do you only ever work with nice compliant clients who take the first thing that falls from your keyboard? How can I get in touch with them? :-)
AnthonySep 21, 2002 at 8:16PM
The site is a very clean, yes, but as with your site it would have been nice (and important) if the text was able to be resized for those who are vision impaired. This is something that seems to be overlooked in a lot of blogs. Accessibility is important and designers need to keep this in mind.
Tom CoatesSep 22, 2002 at 6:07PM
This may be an innappropriate view, but I really increasingly believe that this is the job of the browser manufacturer. On Mac IE5, you can text zoom any text, whether the text size has been specified to the pixel or not. That makes much more sense to me than designing using relative measurements that change and shift cross-browser...
AnilSep 22, 2002 at 10:45PM
Why the unflexibility by using fixed "table" widths and fixed font sizes? Any particular reason?
Fixed font sizes: Fear of Style Sheets 4
That article, unfortunately, is a bit aged. See relevant links about why relative font sizes are o-kay.
SladeSep 22, 2002 at 11:15PM
Ignore comments by meta, if you don't mind. He's posted this drivel on a number of other sites, notably here.
metaSep 23, 2002 at 12:26AM
No, it was Matt, His Highness who posted it there.
Now if you want it to be ignored, why do you repost it?
jkottkeSep 23, 2002 at 3:34PM
That article, unfortunately, is a bit aged. See relevant links about why relative font sizes are o-kay.
O-kay? Seems like a nightmare. The workarounds have workarounds for their workarounds. Next time I see someone who had a hand in building a Web browser, I'm gonna strangle them.
GeneSep 23, 2002 at 8:34PM
The workarounds have workarounds for their workarounds.
Indeed. I have relative font sizing working o-kay on one site, but I'm using a server-side browser detection script to set the % values for, um, six different browser versions now.
Not to mention that when IE 6 beta was first out it screwed everything up... there was a problem in its user agent declaration I think. Obviously, mine is not a good long-term strategy.
Lisa ClarksonSep 25, 2002 at 9:24PM
The link for relative font sizes at here looks intimidating at first but it's no big deal once you apply it to a few pages. Go for it, it's worth the effort.
Of course, it's your prerogative to keep using fixed font sizes, but don't use Zeldman as your backup anymore... his Web Standards Project uses the technique above.
Of course, we could all be like Joel Spolsky and go back to tags for everything.
Lisa ClarksonSep 25, 2002 at 9:25PM
Um, make that "go back to tags for everything."
Lisa ClarksonSep 25, 2002 at 9:27PM
You know what? Don't make it anything. Feh!
"less than FONT greater than" is what I meant.
Oh, and I like the Susan Orlean site. Pleasant, well-organized, functional, and attractive. What else could a girl ask for?
JordonOct 03, 2002 at 6:21PM
Whatever she paid you for the design, it was worth it. If I am Susan Orleans, I would be proud to call this site mine. Great site. For all the detractors, one of the reasons we are all here is that we like kottke.org, why should a client be any different.
This thread is closed to new comments. Thanks to everyone who responded.