ArveJul 23, 2003 at 5:30PM

Ouch. My CPU caught fire, and so did my ears. If I wanted MTV, I' watch MTV.

Still: Throw away the web context, dumb this down a weenie bit (ok, dumb this down a lot), and it'd feel almost like watching late-night SMS tv.

JimJul 23, 2003 at 9:20PM

I remember the days when 2advanced was inspirational - 1999, 2000 I think? I'm amazed at how unimpressed I am with their work now - I find a really solidly produced multimedia story much more compelling. All their stuff looks the same (check their portfolio) and the only real difference I see between the relaunch and their old site is that it's maroon. Some folks just can't move on, I guess.

typo? TYPO!Jul 24, 2003 at 2:38AM

people hate designers because they're materialistic, superficial, overly emotional, aloof and generally ignorant. not because of any craft exercise. designers hate other designers because they're insecure.

-nice to have that out of my system-

ErnieJul 24, 2003 at 4:52AM

Holy crap, their website looks SO MUCH BETTER ON LSD

gpJul 24, 2003 at 7:04AM

I might liked it if that opening scene continued for like 2 hours. At least I could get a laugh out of it.

BenJul 24, 2003 at 10:22AM

Everyone is insecure. Except maybe this guy.

GarrettJul 24, 2003 at 10:57AM

These are possibly some of the most ignorant comments I've heard, and one of the most ridiculous comments I've seen accompany a link. "This is why people hate designers," is probably the stupidest thing I've heard someone say in a long, long time.

2advanced is fantastic at what they do. Would you complain about ILM because the special effects in a movie looked great? Would you complain about how Jason's site is disgustingly boring to look at? No. There is purpose to everything. Kottke.org looks the way it does because its look is not important. 2advanced provides excellent flash design for those who need its purpose.

Just because it's moving around and animated, it's not bad. I wish everyone would stop agreeing instantly with Jason, and I wish everyone would stop complaining about things like Flash. If you don't like it, just ignore it.

But don't post ignorant ass-kissing comments that make you sound like a fool.

gwintJul 24, 2003 at 11:39AM

Another way to express Garrett's point might be: Context is everything. Certain film or video game sites certainly could benefit from such a flashy treatment, while nytimes.com would not... There's plenty of room on the web for animated Flash sites as well as "non" design sites like kottke

Jan KJul 24, 2003 at 11:55AM

We should keep in mind that the links are provided by both Jason and Greg. Having poked around this site for years, some of the links and the accomodating comments don't strike me as a "Jason"-style link. He's got that retrained, thoughtful approach in writing, a style akin to that Asian designer from Trading Spaces. "Ridiculous over-the-top" isn't Jason. But "open source web design" is.

Maybe we outta place bets as to which links belong to who. Because if it's truly all about butt kissing, maybe it would help to know exactly whose derriere we're placing our lips on.

Heading back on topic, let's face it, if Kottke went all Flash tomorrow, we'd all probably still hit up the site. Ultimately, it's about good content, no?

under-the-topJul 24, 2003 at 11:55AM

I actually found the site well-built, purposeful, and detail-oriented, when I considered it in context, which is to say I considered it as properly and objectively as I could.

Besides simply agreeing with Garrett and Gwint, I'd like to add that those who adhere blindly and iditiocally to whatever the white-hot fashionable-design-trend-of-the-week is should be extremely careful not to end up looking like huge asshats, lest their own offerings ever become slightly un-hip if (when) the trend-tastic "writable web" even takes a turn for the graphic again, even however slightly.

So...small, boring, minimalist designs are in right now, big f-ing deal. Not realizing the fact that the Web is a *hugely* fad-based, quickly-changing medium in which things that were achingly hip 1 1/2 years ago are now all of a sudden referred to as "over-the-top" is a certain recipe for egocentric disaster.

BenJul 24, 2003 at 12:59PM

That was also one of the most off-the-cuff blanket generalizations I've seen accompany a few people's opinions.

Yes, 2advanced has been doing basically the same thing for several years, but who hasn't? It might be over the top to some, but it's obviously a niche they are good at, and comfortable with staying in. They would have probably moved on to italicized Cooper Black on hot pink vector shapes long ago if they weren't getting asked and paid for the kind of sites they make. I like the fact that they exist because when someone asks me to make a site like that, I just point them in their direction, and then I don't have to make it.

But to say "Don't like Flash? Don't look at it" is a standpoint that has alot of flaws.

jkottkeJul 24, 2003 at 1:22PM

FYI, I posted the initial link and comment, not Greg. I really do think the site is ridiculous, over-the-top, and why people hate designers.

JimJul 24, 2003 at 1:46PM

Still another way to state Garrett's opinion is "people that make generalizations suck, except for me - my generalizations rule". I think the 2advanced site is a waste of bandwidth not because I read it on kottke.org but because it IS. Everything they design looks like everything else they've designed and it's largely unusable and almost completely non-functional. Pretty? Of course. Original? Well, outside of the context of the rest of their work, sure.

I was also completely disappointed in their video reel. Talk about lame, unoriginal, boring and just throwing every crazy interface/3D effect they could into 40 seconds. No thanks - I'll take a "boring, minimalist" but well told story any day of the week.

kimJul 24, 2003 at 3:03PM

Actually I think that site just gave me a seizure

souloniceJul 24, 2003 at 3:38PM

That site and those types of designers definitely fit a niche and if they didn't, I doubt we'd see so much of it. Anyway, I hate designers for completely different reasons. :)

GarrettJul 24, 2003 at 3:48PM

Let me clarify by saying that my "generalization" of saying everyone agrees instantly with Jason was out of context. That kind of thing just bothers me. But my other comments still stand.

And Jason: I don't really know anyone who hates designers? Are you in some sort of group of people who want the world to be plain, composed of one colour and lacking in anything visual? You hate designers, does that also mean you hate architects? Do you hate painters?

What kind of world do you wish we were living in?

LauraJul 24, 2003 at 4:10PM

I am a designer and I hate designers. I hate when bored designers come up with these over the top - useless sites. Because with all those "artsy" sites out there, non-technical people think they "need" them for their own site and I have to explain to my client that they don't need all these bells and whistles to sell their little product online, and yet they panic and think they won't be hip if they don't have it and then they flip when they see how much it actually costs to have an online presence like that. It is a part of the sales/development process I could do without. And that is why I hate designers (sometimes.)

MaryJul 24, 2003 at 5:02PM

Looks like it was built by a 20-something intern at the company.

betoJul 24, 2003 at 7:02PM

The trouble with 2A is that, with this site version, have started repeating themselves to the point of becoming its own cliche. The tons of "31337" teenage "d3z16n3r5" that have shamelessly copied this style ad nauseam haven't certainly helped. This is so typical of many corporations in the entertainment industry: Find something that clicks with people, and exploit it until they become sick of it.

The way I see it, people on the web these days tend to favor substantial content they can use over meaningless eye candy. Obviously, there's more to design that the 2A and lookalike stuff.

RobJul 24, 2003 at 7:03PM

Mr Kottke, do you hate the designer who designed your new toothbrush?

lincolnJul 24, 2003 at 7:26PM

hi. I am a designer and person. I hate everyone. I hate all designs. don't like my point of view? then go see mandy moore in 'how to deal' cause there are no room for tears on this here shoulder.

Justin BellJul 24, 2003 at 8:16PM

Garrett, their site is nice, and brilliantly done. And infact, I like it. But the reason why it's a pain-in-the-ass is because unless people are going there to be awed by animations, they probably just want to go in there to get some info. If all people want to do is get info, then sites like that are just a total pain in the ass, they take long time to load, animations waste time, and they're hard to use (example: the work catagory in their portfolio, it look's like a dropdown box, but works nothing like one).

If I wanted to be awed by some brilliant flash animation, I'd go to K10k or Praystation. Otherwise, I'll be wanting good content in plain HTML.

the-poetJul 25, 2003 at 2:40AM

I actually applaud their effort on the site and I like the color scheme

TommyJul 25, 2003 at 8:32AM

Minimalism, blogging, the writable web (or whatever you want to call it) are just fads, nothing more. I suspect that many "web designers" currently shielding their lack of talent under the guise of minimalism will soon find themselves out of a job, or merely ignored. Perhaps Mr Kottke's time would be better served brushing up on his design skills rather than criticising other, more competent designers.

JohnJul 25, 2003 at 9:29AM

Minimalism is a fad? Yeeah. It's only been around for, oh, more than half a century, and will still be around long after everyone here has passed on... But sure, let's label it a fad.

Jason ZadaJul 25, 2003 at 9:58AM

This thread is hilarious. You know.... first of all design is subjective. For every 20 people that dislike something, there will be 20 more that do. Second, anyone who wants to knock "minimalism" or better yet, simple, straight forward design that does it's job well and doesn't interfere with the overall objective is completely ignorant.

Now on to the 2Advanced redesign (which is the furthest thing from minimalism, of course). In my opinion, this site is why people hate Flash. This site is an example of being audience ignorant. It chugs a 2.5 gig PC at my work. It chugs any machine I have tried it on.

"2Advanced Studios unveils version 4 'Prophecy', raising the bar for the interactive flash community......". With a statement like that I am not only embarrassed for the person that wrote it, but you leave yourself open to some serious disagreement. This site does NOT raise any bar. It's the same thing they did last time, which might have been cool in 1999 (once again to some) but now has been copied so many times it looks outdated and just plain silly.

People hate designers because they wear black and use fancy words like Helvetica and Gothic.

tbitJul 25, 2003 at 1:33PM

I like it actually. But it is Flash heavy, barely usable and chock full of motion, sound and imagery. And that is EXACTLY as they intended it to be.

IMO, these flashie builders want exactly this sort of stir from their sites. They are promoting themselves to people who LOVE that sort of stuff (i kinda do, in and of itself) and would hire these guys to do the same sort of branding to their media.

When pared down, the skill that is required to do the scripting and motion is there and that is what gets them hired. Is it time they innovated? Probably. But in today's dezine kid world where EVERYONE is doing something "new and innovative" but it all looks alike, I sort of like the idea of constantly playing with a familiar theme, of working with your strengths and expanding upon them.

HaveedJul 25, 2003 at 1:56PM

the writable web is a fad? heh. funny, I thought the web was just growing up.

under-the-topJul 25, 2003 at 3:24PM

First off, Zada, you are totally proving several earlier points (and a larger social theme on the whole) by wasting time posting the umpteenth defense of minimalist design, especially with your borderline laughable use of the buzzwords "simple, straightforward, blah blah" puke.

The point is *exactly that* minimalism is rushed to savior by you and others not because it's one of several methodologies that have been around for a long time (centuries is a bit grandioese, even for an egotist), but because it happens to be the metholodogy flavor of the year.

Secondly, hit up the Internet Archive (archive.org), and type in kottke.org. Then, click on the first entry available (May 08, 1999), and persue down the page until you come to the link for kottke.org/media. On that page (the first post, I believe), you will find an entry written by jk in which he gleefully praises a site built in shockwave, and makes a comment about "this is what i love about the web" or something to that effect.

The point is not to demonstrate that Flash, et all were cool in 1999, but rather to assert that whatever happens to be cool at the moment, just like in any other social vertical, is destined to be the next thing all-to-easily laughed at four years (or much less) down the road. And when it comes to trust, it's extremely easy for any human- no matter how revered they are for their coolness, design sense, and the like, to become caught up in any, or many, design rages that push us all into equal tizzies of anger and delight.

It's called perspective, and you (anybody) can lose it just as easy weather your head is up a person's ass, or that of a trend.

Jason ZadaJul 25, 2003 at 8:46PM

'Simple' is a buzzword. That's one of them there fancy buzzzwords those kids are using these days.

pomoslutJul 25, 2003 at 11:50PM

"And when it comes to trust, it's extremely easy for any human- no matter how revered they are for their coolness, design sense, and the like, to become caught up in any, or many, design rages that push us all into equal tizzies of anger and delight."

bleh bleh let me make gross generalizations about ALL HUMANS because I am Under-the-top, all knowing, all fucking all star design, all fucking right, fucking I drink at the Roost and call myself fucking art star, bleh.

what the fuck is that drivel?

"It's called perspective..." ahhh and it all becomes so clear now.

Phil WilsonJul 26, 2003 at 10:36AM

I'd really like the 2advanced site if I could find the content.

AshJul 27, 2003 at 6:22PM

I really dislike 2A's home page and don't think its representative of thier ablilties. I didn't like this version nor either of thier last two versions. Howerver if you look in thier portofolio you'll see quite a few impressive uses of flash, where the flash dosen't interfere with the actual content.

JustinJul 27, 2003 at 7:29PM

Tommy, Minimalism is not just a fad, it's a principle in design. And it's especialy important, and relivant, in the world of web-design, where things are usally cluttered right from the start. The less there is, and the clearer it is, the easier a site it to use. No fad is going to change that.


Sure there are a few people who may be hidding bad design by calling it minimalism, but it still takes a lot of skill to create something that looks nice and functions well, when you have barly any elements to work with.

Personaly, as I said before, I like their design, but don't think it is suited for it's purpose. A portflio/designer site should always be very straight-forward and clear IMHO. If they want to show-off their skills in whatever field, then it can be included as a portfolio peice. That's the hole point of a portfolio.

Perhaps you are confusing graphic designers with graphics artists?

VishiJul 28, 2003 at 11:59PM

The site in question, 2advanced.com gives a movie like experience. I'd love to see this kind of stuff if it is shown without me doing anything. We don't read stuff or interact in the movies, we just experience them. It can also be used to denote a brand statement like an ad. 2advanced is a site for a company that does these brand statements. They could drive the experience by puting a neat flash file on each of their page and use normal html for browsing. It is like the 'going to the movies' metaphor forced in on the 'travel metaphor' :).

PaulJul 29, 2003 at 5:30AM

Why don't they use a SharedObject so I don't have to sit through that intro animation every time I visit the site? Why don't they use Stage listeners to resize/realign content depending on browser window size instead of forcing me to browse at 1024 x768? Why don't they even try to implement a back button solution? Using such techniques (which are hardly new) would have made the site more usable and raised the bar for Flash sites - changing it's colour scheme doesn't.

peteJul 29, 2003 at 5:43AM

Visualy It would be wrong for me to slag of the 2a site - if I said I like to 1/2 of you would say i hate shite taste - the other 1/2 would shake my hand.

Personaly though I am disapointed with it - for the simple reason it has'nt moved on since v1. 2a have been pioneers in Flash/Interent desing for the last 3 years. However this time I think they've missed the boat. Theres nothing wrong with trying to raise the bar , which 2a have done in the past. This time I think they've missed the boat. Visually it's a feast, granted it might not be to everybodies taste, but there is a market for this type of site.

My fear is that they will go down the same route of the Attics of this world. Much hpyed in the mid-late 90's. Attic design and style was copied to death my design students who went slap happy with Layer masking/effects in photoshop. Attic never moved on - never tryied to develop there style any further - and ultimaterly why they've fallen from their perch. Are 2a going the same route ? Time will only tell.

Finaly, for all those slagging it off. Ask you self this question. Is your dislike for the 2a site 'realy' about its o.t.t visual style or is it (as I think it might be) born out of jealousy ? Given 1/2 the chance would you not jump at the chance to work on a project of that scale ? If i were to offer 100K to desing me a site in the 2a style I deffy any body here not to byte my hand off (your a lier if you say no ....)

poeJul 29, 2003 at 5:46AM

Would you complain about ILM because the special effects in a movie looked great?

no, but then ILM innovate and dont skim off ideas from everyone else and homogenise them into one giant mess which we are supposed to accept as creativity

GoboJul 29, 2003 at 3:26PM

There's a principle in art called "Fatigue Mutation". I can look at fauve paintings only a few moments before getting sensory fatigue. With 2a, I'm not just fatigued - the site killed me. Writing this comment is my last act. Goodbye, world.

adrian lunaJul 29, 2003 at 7:11PM

2advanced is a cool place to go, and it has it's notch on the flash website totum pole, so that's cool.

most people are saying that the site doesn't not serve a function but i beg to differ. yes it looks cool and yes it's flash overkill but who really cares? this young lad Eric Jordon has worked his but off to create numerous versions of an interactive system that presents his portfolio, and what type of work he has worked on, and at the same token, displays his ability to create in flash for the future and markets his availability. this we're all sure results in contracts and a monthly flow of cash. isn't that what we all want? to work on your own dime and enjoy dana point? hehe. it's a prestine lifestyle.

clients that want FLASH ("flash overkill" as most have noted) would love his assistance.

one thing i'd suggest to him, get a sales rep within the entertainment industry that has a hefty blackbook in movies and telelvision. and soon start an entertainment company with the funds then market such as FACTION or DNA. he could take over a healthy percentage of the flash interactive entertainment market and grow.

lastly. because we're all here talking about this website makes it succesful and remembered. true? yes, no?

great work eric, cause you got your notch.

johnAug 24, 2003 at 6:49AM

2advanced... i must say i am disapointed in the new website.. much to complicated in comparison to the older blue webpage.. colour sceme doesnt quite work either.. mad graphic etc. but not quite there..

kkSep 24, 2003 at 11:58PM

GARRET, FUCK OFF ASSFACE!
GOOD TASTE!
SOME GUYS CANNOT MOVE FOWARD, I AGREE!

vikas malhotraSep 30, 2003 at 1:10AM

Indian media,advertising & marketing news, happenings, analysis, industry reports, latest surveys& much more. Covers all the media segments like print,TV, radio

Not Clueless Like YouOct 13, 2003 at 5:02AM

Yup, someone who hasn't bothered to learn any new technology and been busy writing blogs is criticizing someone who is amazing at what they do and about a million times better. Kottke is a designer? Ha-ha! Look at 2A's portfolio and yours. They are a quickly growing company with lots of resources. They have the most creative minds and everything they do makes sense and is extremely professional. Their sites don't make sense? What the hell are you stupid, boring idiots talking about? Their information architecture is at least not worse than Kottke's, but their sites look a million times better and function just as well. Lots of people have tried to copy what they do and very few have succeeded if any. They are still at the top. Yet, any 6-year old can build sites like Kottke's. And does. The only reason Kottke's site is popular is because he started doing this when there was almost no competition and built up an audience. Had he started it now none of you would ever hear of him because it would get lost in a gazillion other sites like it. 2A is different and completely stands out. To even compare them to Kottke is ridiculous. Kottke is a pathetic piece of shit who has to trash someone infinitely better than him and hear approval from morons like him. 2A deserves nothing, but admiration for constantly pushing the boundaries of technology while most of you people can keep existing in that boring black and white life you're living. You probably drive crappy cars, dress like shit, are ugly, stupid and fat. The only way for you to feel better is to trash people who are better than you at everything, who have a fucking clue. While people like Eric creates and lives you just exist and take up space. What a bunch of pathetic losers. Laura, another so called designer said it very well why she hates real designers. Because she sucks ass and doesn't even know where to begin when she's asked to create something half as good as what 2A does. Laura, just because you're an incompetent, stupid bitch who has lost her competiveness in the world that's moving forward don't hate people who are better than you. You people are absolutely pathetic. You'd rather stare at Kottke's pathetic excuse of a website all day than learn or do anything creative. You don't even realize how stupid and ignorant you all sound. A website like 2A's is not created by an intern. It takes a team of very talented individuals a long time and a ton of skill goes into it. Skill that you don't have. It would take you idiots a century to make something like that. Actually I take it back - you'll never make something even close. There's nothing wrong with writing (I like it myself), but please don't confuse typing into a weblog with web design. If Kottke is a designer I'm a fucking Indonesian austranaut. Speaking of austronauts Kottke is like someone who learned how to make a paper airplane and is trashing someone who is a NASA engineer. With the exception of the people who didn't agree with him here's a fucking generalization for you - bunch of angry, no talent, pathetic, ignorant maggots. While you're wasting your time at your pathetic jobs and worshipping Kottke Eric and co are making millions and loving their work and life.

BobbyOct 22, 2003 at 9:19PM

Personally I agree that the 2ad Site is slow, confusing, and stuffed full of pointless animations and (bad) 3d models spinning around.

But isn't one of the main points here to make money? I don't think any of us can disagree that, while we may not like the style, they have found a niche and are making some incredible profits off of it.

So who cares? Why bitch about something that so many people are obviously paying for? They're making more money than I am, and they're not doing it in an unethical way.

benNov 05, 2003 at 12:53PM

I'm sure by "making millions" you meant "about the same sort of salary that most people who are 'wasting their time at their pathetic jobs and worshipping Kottke'". And I'm also sure that by "making millions" you assume that everyone's goal in life is to "make millions by working in the design industry, pandering to a bunch of fluff clients."

BobbyNov 06, 2003 at 5:40PM

No - making money isn't everyone's goal, but do you think it's necessarily wrong to want to make money and be successful?

I don't assume that it's "everyone's goal," but I'm sure that making money and being successful is THEIR goal, and they've obviously succeeded.

And as far as "pandering to a bunch of fluff clients," well doesn't that come with almost any industry? What should Eric Jordan do, sit at home and be a bum because of weak, ungrounded ethics?

I guess "success" is a suspect term, and the definition is loose, but according to what they think is success is, I'm sure they consider themselves successful...no matter how many people want to sit around bitching about 45 degree angles and long flash intros.

nif nifNov 24, 2003 at 6:57AM

a?

Lachman Dave Nov 25, 2003 at 5:58PM

Ain't no disgrace to be poor - but might as well be.

Lachman Dave Nov 25, 2003 at 8:17PM

Ain't no disgrace to be poor - but might as well be.

Lashutka Michael Nov 28, 2003 at 10:40AM

If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable.

Boehland Andie Nov 28, 2003 at 10:41AM

Perceptions do not limit reality.

rxhairlossNov 28, 2003 at 3:21PM

just a test

Zimmerman Beth Kaufman Dec 10, 2003 at 7:42AM

In his errors a man is true to type. Observe the errors and you will know the man.

dophinehDec 12, 2003 at 4:00PM

2advanced is an awesome site... EVery1 here who is bad-mouthing it is (a) jealous, or (b) old fashioned.

10 Years down the line this site will look like nothing and there will be even more crazy "over-the-top" sites. Sorta like interactive TV.
Get used to it. `peace`

TrinityR3Dec 12, 2003 at 5:41PM

This is a great discussion. One that is probably long overdue. I too have a been a graphic designer for over 8 years. But not purely a flash designer (although I dabble in it to some extent). I have a large concentration on graphic design itself in the print and digital mediums.

I dislike 2A's latest portfolio site offering also because it's a bit sluggish, and too candy heavy however I very much respect their work both from a technical and artistic stance. They have a solid portfolio. Ford using 2A them several times and especially on their new GT40 and F-150 cars (arguably their best vehicle revisions in really long time) proves that.

Now for what I acutally want to say.

1. Not everyone is going to like everyone else's work. But the fact that "there is even a discussion about 2A shows they are doing something right. They are getting to you. Good or bad, they're design reached YOU
2. 2A should just stay and evolve the way they want. And people should hire them for that reason. That's right I said it. They should hire them for that reason! HR Giger was the creator of Aliens and all things of that genre and nature. Would it be fair to put him under fire because his design hasn't changed?!? People actually hire HR Giger for projects because of the "consistency" and "similarity" of his personal style. And nobody bashes "Monet" for painting the same way each time.
3. Ultimately, ask yourself this question... Why is there an incessant need to bash on other designers publicly? Why not just discuss design as a whole medium? Wouldn't it be more benefical it we discussed cinematic, broadcast, graphic, print, digital, & web design, and how it fits into society today?

Just my 3.5 cents but stop bashing everyone and start talking about topics that have a little more substance than "2advanced sucks".

Ruth Katie Dec 20, 2003 at 6:49PM

Dreams are made to be destroyed. Nightmares are forever.

orbitrixJan 03, 2004 at 6:09AM

2advanced is cool... my butt itches

ChasJan 08, 2004 at 6:16PM

Designers, designers, designers.....
Let me tell you all what makes a designer good. Giving your client what they ask for. A good designer gets repeat business and has happy clients.

Some of you complain about other designers leading a fade that only makes your job that much more difficult. Well, a good designer would be able to pursue their client from faddish ideas.

All this none sense about 2Avanced being a bandwidth hoar, over-the top, blabla. I’d say they have satisfied clients and they’re getting paid.

One thing I learned from my career as a designer, especially working for a very conservative firm, it’s no longer a hobby but a JOB. You do what you got to do to please clients and make quotas. Outside of the 9-5 it becomes a hobby again. Give it that love, pixel push all you want, set new fades, dwell and complain about what you like and don’t like, whatever.

My opinion: A good designer is also a developer, a consultant and solution provider. It's all about the backend folks. FUNTIONALITY and CONTENT. It can look all pretty but if you can't do anything with it it's useless.

P's

rbJan 10, 2004 at 6:24AM

I wanna know who scripted the bloody thing? It seems to loop heavy routines even when it's not being used. Has the scripter ever ever heard of function calls?

An examplar of style over content.

rbJan 10, 2004 at 6:31AM

By the way - here's how a flash providers site SHOULD be done. These folks kick 2A's arses....

www.titoonic.dk

blackjackFeb 12, 2004 at 12:46PM

Good luck with that.